Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Randy == Randy Bush ra...@psg.com writes: Randy sorry, but enough is enough. I still do not understand visiting a tourist destination (Orlando) during it's peak (March). I also don't understand two meetings in a row on the US east coast.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On 8/17/2012 12:05 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: For example once I know the criteria I could check around in Poland to see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue. http://www.ietf.org/meeting/hosting-an-ietf.html d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Glen, Maybe you've missed the fact that the IAOC has a rather excellent contractor that does meeting planning for a living? Maybe you prefer my darts version, oh well :-) Ole J. Jacobsen Editor Publisher http://cisco.com/ipj Sent from my iPhone On 21 Aug 2012, at 06:52, Glen Zorn glenz...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/20/2012 09:29 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: We are paid well to design protocols because designing protocols that work well in practice is a tricky art that is best practiced by experts in the field. But negotiating all the arrangements for a complex technical conference is a straightforward matter of comparing the published room rates of various hotels and can be successfully accomplished by any literate person who takes an interest in doing it. And that's undoubtedly why the IAOC is packed with professional meeting organizers! Now I'm off to do my own dental work. That left molar has been bothering me... Why not go to the IAOC? Dale
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
And that's undoubtedly why the IAOC is packed with professional meeting organizers! looks to me as if the iaoc knows what they do not know and have the sense to contract it out to pros. unlike the amateurs on list who have never organized a medium-sized meeting such as the ietf in their lives but can tell everyone else how to do it. sorry, but enough is enough. randy
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Randy == Randy Bush ra...@psg.com writes: Randy sorry, but enough is enough. I still do not understand visiting a tourist destination (Orlando) during it's peak (March). I also don't understand two meetings in a row on the US east coast. -- Michael Richardson -at the cottage- pgppQXEKg7OlE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On Aug 21, 2012, at 8:04 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: Randy == Randy Bush ra...@psg.com writes: Randy sorry, but enough is enough. I still do not understand visiting a tourist destination (Orlando) during it's peak (March). I also don't understand two meetings in a row on the US east coast. The first, Atlanta, IETF 85, was slipped to 2012 to accommodate an opportunity to go to Asia (Beijing) in Nov 2010, and the second is Orlando, IETF 86, in March 2013 to close on an opportunity to do a back-to-back meeting with IEEE 802. Orlando was booked first then the stars aligned for Beijing and we couldn't pass it up. The Hilton Atlanta contract permitted a postponement of two years without penalty, so we took advantage of the provision. Ray IAD -- Michael Richardson -at the cottage-
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
I still do not understand visiting a tourist destination (Orlando) during it's peak (March). I also don't understand two meetings in a row on the US east coast. there are lots of things i do not understand. i try to focus on those i need to in order to do good work. that's hard enough. randy
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
We are paid well to design protocols because designing protocols that work well in practice is a tricky art that is best practiced by experts in the field. But negotiating all the arrangements for a complex technical conference is a straightforward matter of comparing the published room rates of various hotels and can be successfully accomplished by any literate person who takes an interest in doing it. Now I'm off to do my own dental work. That left molar has been bothering me... Dale
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Dale, We actually like to have a little fun with it. At the World IAOC Headquarters (WIAOCH) we have a huge world map and a set of darts. After having some drinks to put us in the right mood, we start tossing darts at the wall and rolling specially designed dice where each face has logos and names such as Hilton, Starwood, Hyatt, Marriott, Fairmont, and Low Rent. Our designated driver tries to keep track of it all, and at the end of the meeting we dispatch a randomly selected set of our friends to do site visits. They are expected to report back to us with useful information such as the in-room Internet sucked and was expensive, but in reality our selection relies more on the use of game theory and chance (hence the dice). We tried once to pick a location with the longest train ride, but the community didn't seem to like it... We also sometimes write protocol specs, just to keep up with the rest of you. Ole :-) Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher, The Internet Protocol Journal Cisco Systems Tel: +1 408-527-8972 Mobile: +1 415-370-4628 E-mail: o...@cisco.com URL: http://www.cisco.com/ipj Skype: organdemo On Mon, 20 Aug 2012, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: We are paid well to design protocols because designing protocols that work well in practice is a tricky art that is best practiced by experts in the field. But negotiating all the arrangements for a complex technical conference is a straightforward matter of comparing the published room rates of various hotels and can be successfully accomplished by any literate person who takes an interest in doing it. Now I'm off to do my own dental work. That left molar has been bothering me... Dale
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On 08/20/2012 09:29 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote: We are paid well to design protocols because designing protocols that work well in practice is a tricky art that is best practiced by experts in the field. But negotiating all the arrangements for a complex technical conference is a straightforward matter of comparing the published room rates of various hotels and can be successfully accomplished by any literate person who takes an interest in doing it. And that's undoubtedly why the IAOC is packed with professional meeting organizers! Now I'm off to do my own dental work. That left molar has been bothering me... Why not go to the IAOC? Dale
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Hi, Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound. All hotel rates are wide open and published on IETF web page. It's an interesting NDA which permits open disclosure ;-) Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last few years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are willing to meet those targets or not. Price for attendee rooms is only a small part of the contract. MK
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Hi Bob, Is there any way to broaden the scope of IAOC choice and provide the candidate locations which would meet IETF criteria by any IETF member ? For example once I know the criteria I could check around in Poland to see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue. I am sure friends from South America would be glad to conduct similar local research in their neighborhood. So would others from other continents. Are the criteria for IETF meetings published or is this some sort of top secret (for example how much the venue may cost) ? Could we all contribute via a wiki page ? Could we make the IETF choice of location an open process ? Thx, R. Arturo, [Reducing the cc: list to just the IETF and IAOC lists] The IAOC seriously investigated a venue in South America for IETF92, but based on the data we collected it did not meet the criteria for IETF meetings. We are continuing to talk with the group that suggested the venue and are also looking at other venues in that region for future meetings. We have open meeting slots in 2015-2017. Bob IAOC Chair
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On 8/17/12 12:05 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: Hi Bob, Is there any way to broaden the scope of IAOC choice and provide the candidate locations which would meet IETF criteria by any IETF member ? For example once I know the criteria I could check around in Poland to see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue. I am sure friends from South America would be glad to conduct similar local research in their neighborhood. So would others from other continents. Are the criteria for IETF meetings published or is this some sort of top secret (for example how much the venue may cost) ? Could we all contribute via a wiki page ? Could we make the IETF choice of location an open process ? Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound. All hotel rates are wide open and published on IETF web page. It's an interesting NDA which permits open disclosure ;-) Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last few years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are willing to meet those targets or not. R. On 8/17/12 12:05 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: Hi Bob, Is there any way to broaden the scope of IAOC choice and provide the candidate locations which would meet IETF criteria by any IETF member ? For example once I know the criteria I could check around in Poland to see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue. I am sure friends from South America would be glad to conduct similar local research in their neighborhood. So would others from other continents. Are the criteria for IETF meetings published or is this some sort of top secret (for example how much the venue may cost) ? Could we all contribute via a wiki page ? Could we make the IETF choice of location an open process ? Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On 8/17/12 12:20 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound. All hotel rates are wide open and published on IETF web page. It's an interesting NDA which permits open disclosure ;-) The room rate is... Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last few years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are willing to meet those targets or not. A week long meeting involving ~1200 people, dozens meeting rooms, plus ancillary meeting, receptions, takeover and operation of a network, av support, and catering is a rather different beast. R. On 8/17/12 12:05 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: Hi Bob, Is there any way to broaden the scope of IAOC choice and provide the candidate locations which would meet IETF criteria by any IETF member ? For example once I know the criteria I could check around in Poland to see if there is any place which would satisfy the future IETF venue. I am sure friends from South America would be glad to conduct similar local research in their neighborhood. So would others from other continents. Are the criteria for IETF meetings published or is this some sort of top secret (for example how much the venue may cost) ? Could we all contribute via a wiki page ? Could we make the IETF choice of location an open process ? Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
--On Friday, August 17, 2012 21:20 +0200 Robert Raszuk rob...@raszuk.net wrote: Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last few years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are willing to meet those targets or not. Actually, we don't (although one can deduce a lot of it from the IAOC budget and other materials). What we know is the room rates in the conference hotels. We don't know the meeting room charges (including charges for rooms used by the IESG, IAB, IAOC, Nomcom, etc., etc.), the catering rates and rules (including rules about outside food), any charges associated with Internet service, various facility charges not included in any of the above, any accommodation arrangements that presumably lower costs to the IETF such as free or upgraded rooms, and so on for what I assume is a fairly long list. Depending on the hotel and negotiations, some of those are free (i.e., bundled into the room rates for those staying in the hotel), others are not. And those of us who have been disturbed by the patterns of room rates in the primary hotel would probably be very unhappy if some average or ceiling on those rates were treated as an acceptable target. john
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas! ... vetting of alternatives
On Fri, 17 Aug 2012, joel jaeggli wrote: On 8/17/12 12:20 PM, Robert Raszuk wrote: Hotel contracts by their nature need to be negotiated under mutual NDA unless you want all the vendors in the region to mysteriously arrive at the same lower bound. All hotel rates are wide open and published on IETF web page. It's an interesting NDA which permits open disclosure ;-) The room rate is... Besides hotel is least worry as we do know the IETF rates for the last few years and it is quite easy to check with any hotel if they are willing to meet those targets or not. A week long meeting involving ~1200 people, dozens meeting rooms, plus ancillary meeting, receptions, takeover and operation of a network, av support, and catering is a rather different beast. Since folks contributing as Robert has suggested can't enter into actual negotiations, that is probably one factor best left to a formal inquiry. But it seems to me that the question for which local advocates could gather information is the facility qualification in terms of the requirments. I'd guess that IAOC creates a strawman requirement for the meeting which will list criteria like sizes and types of meeting facilities. That strawman reveals a requirment, not any NDA covered negotiation. For this discussion, it should include an analysis of travel time and costs from some common major hubs in NA, Europe, SA, Asia as I assume this data would be part of the IAOC decision process and it should help if the local advocates do the travel research.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
In message 502c81d2.3020...@bogus.com, joel jaeggli writes: On 8/15/12 9:49 PM, Alejandro Acosta wrote: Hi All, In my humble opinion I totally agree with Arturo. So far I do know several cities in Latin America and I believe Sao Paulo (Brazil) or Cancun (Mexico) might be a good options. Of course there are many more good cities, those ware the first two that came to my mind. I hope IETF 100 can be done over there. Notably Sao Paulo gets a train line from GRU in time for the worldcup in theory, which would be a substantial accessibility improvement. Some locations in the southern hemisphere where attendees hail from have even more painful routing than normal to GRU e.g. syd. The observation would be that it's a long-haul for all but a handful of attendees. And it would be ~$1000 (AUD) more than Vancouver was from Sydney. SYD - SCL - GRU 21:40 GRU - SLC - SYD 24:30 See you, Alejandro, On 8/15/12, Arturo Servin aser...@lacnic.net wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of R io Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:04, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 2015. The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006. IETF 92 will be at a different venue in the Dallas Arts District. Those who may be interested in hosting or sponsoring this or any future meeting are invited to contact Drew Dvorshak at dvors...@isoc.org. See Host opportunities below. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director IETF Meeting Schedule: 2012 IETF 85 Atlanta 4 - 9 November Host: North American Cable Industry 2013 IETF 86 Orlando 10 - 15 March (Back-to-back with IEEE 802) Comcast NBC Universal IETF 87 Berlin 28 July - 2 Aug Host and Sponsors Sought IETF 88 Vancouver 3 - 8 November Host Sought 2014 - Hosts sought IETF 89 London IETF 90 Toronto IETF 91 Honolulu 2015 - Hosts sought IETF 92 Dallas IETF 93 Europe IETF 94 Yokohama WIDE -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ma...@isc.org
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On Aug 15, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as It was investigated and dropped, having gotten hotel pricing and found it unusually high. I'm told that there is further discussion targeting finding ways to reduce that. We have had similar investigations and decisions in other places. You'll note that the IAOC is routinely tarred and feathered over prices...
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Arturo, [Reducing the cc: list to just the IETF and IAOC lists] The IAOC seriously investigated a venue in South America for IETF92, but based on the data we collected it did not meet the criteria for IETF meetings. We are continuing to talk with the group that suggested the venue and are also looking at other venues in that region for future meetings. We have open meeting slots in 2015-2017. Bob IAOC Chair On Aug 15, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:04, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 2015. The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006. IETF 92 will be at a different venue in the Dallas Arts District.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Bob, Thanks! It is very nice to hear that you were seriously considering adding new venues for the IETF meetings. Hopefully you will find something suitable and somehow not very hard to go for everybody in the future. Regards, as On 16 Aug 2012, at 18:12, Bob Hinden wrote: Arturo, [Reducing the cc: list to just the IETF and IAOC lists] The IAOC seriously investigated a venue in South America for IETF92, but based on the data we collected it did not meet the criteria for IETF meetings. We are continuing to talk with the group that suggested the venue and are also looking at other venues in that region for future meetings. We have open meeting slots in 2015-2017. Bob IAOC Chair On Aug 15, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:04, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 2015. The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006. IETF 92 will be at a different venue in the Dallas Arts District.
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
It is possible that Brazil will be looking to host various international conferences ahead of the Olympics as 'practice runs'. China did that and so have other countries. Given the Government of Brazil's interest in things Internetish it might be an opening. On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Fred Baker (fred) f...@cisco.com wrote: On Aug 15, 2012, at 8:37 PM, Arturo Servin wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as It was investigated and dropped, having gotten hotel pricing and found it unusually high. I'm told that there is further discussion targeting finding ways to reduce that. We have had similar investigations and decisions in other places. You'll note that the IAOC is routinely tarred and feathered over prices... -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:04, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 2015. The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006. IETF 92 will be at a different venue in the Dallas Arts District. Those who may be interested in hosting or sponsoring this or any future meeting are invited to contact Drew Dvorshak at dvors...@isoc.org. See Host opportunities below. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director IETF Meeting Schedule: 2012 IETF 85 Atlanta 4 - 9 November Host: North American Cable Industry 2013 IETF 86 Orlando 10 - 15 March (Back-to-back with IEEE 802) Comcast NBC Universal IETF 87 Berlin 28 July - 2 Aug Host and Sponsors Sought IETF 88 Vancouver 3 - 8 November Host Sought 2014 - Hosts sought IETF 89 London IETF 90 Toronto IETF 91 Honolulu 2015 - Hosts sought IETF 92 Dallas IETF 93 Europe IETF 94 Yokohama WIDE
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
Hi All, In my humble opinion I totally agree with Arturo. So far I do know several cities in Latin America and I believe Sao Paulo (Brazil) or Cancun (Mexico) might be a good options. Of course there are many more good cities, those ware the first two that came to my mind. I hope IETF 100 can be done over there. See you, Alejandro, On 8/15/12, Arturo Servin aser...@lacnic.net wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:04, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 2015. The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006. IETF 92 will be at a different venue in the Dallas Arts District. Those who may be interested in hosting or sponsoring this or any future meeting are invited to contact Drew Dvorshak at dvors...@isoc.org. See Host opportunities below. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director IETF Meeting Schedule: 2012 IETF 85 Atlanta 4 - 9 November Host: North American Cable Industry 2013 IETF 86 Orlando 10 - 15 March (Back-to-back with IEEE 802) Comcast NBC Universal IETF 87 Berlin 28 July - 2 Aug Host and Sponsors Sought IETF 88 Vancouver 3 - 8 November Host Sought 2014 - Hosts sought IETF 89 London IETF 90 Toronto IETF 91 Honolulu 2015 - Hosts sought IETF 92 Dallas IETF 93 Europe IETF 94 Yokohama WIDE
Re: IETF 92 in Dallas!
On 8/15/12 9:49 PM, Alejandro Acosta wrote: Hi All, In my humble opinion I totally agree with Arturo. So far I do know several cities in Latin America and I believe Sao Paulo (Brazil) or Cancun (Mexico) might be a good options. Of course there are many more good cities, those ware the first two that came to my mind. I hope IETF 100 can be done over there. Notably Sao Paulo gets a train line from GRU in time for the worldcup in theory, which would be a substantial accessibility improvement. Some locations in the southern hemisphere where attendees hail from have even more painful routing than normal to GRU e.g. syd. The observation would be that it's a long-haul for all but a handful of attendees. See you, Alejandro, On 8/15/12, Arturo Servin aser...@lacnic.net wrote: So Americas was actually North America. Well, it went the possibility to have one in central or south america, what at shame. At least until IETF 98 in March 2017 no IETF down the south of Rio Grande. May I ask the IAOC, what are the impediments to have one IETF in Latin America? Regards, as On 15 Aug 2012, at 14:04, IETF Administrative Director wrote: The IAOC is pleased to announce Dallas, TX, USA as the site for IETF 92 from March 22-27, 2015. The IETF was last in Dallas for IETF 65 in 2006. IETF 92 will be at a different venue in the Dallas Arts District. Those who may be interested in hosting or sponsoring this or any future meeting are invited to contact Drew Dvorshak at dvors...@isoc.org. See Host opportunities below. Ray Pelletier IETF Administrative Director IETF Meeting Schedule: 2012 IETF 85 Atlanta 4 - 9 November Host: North American Cable Industry 2013 IETF 86 Orlando 10 - 15 March (Back-to-back with IEEE 802) Comcast NBC Universal IETF 87 Berlin 28 July - 2 Aug Host and Sponsors Sought IETF 88 Vancouver 3 - 8 November Host Sought 2014 - Hosts sought IETF 89 London IETF 90 Toronto IETF 91 Honolulu 2015 - Hosts sought IETF 92 Dallas IETF 93 Europe IETF 94 Yokohama WIDE
