[Info-cvs] Re: What is Cederqvist?
From: Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] Like I said, it would depend on who you are And I don't speak for Per Cederqvist either, but I have written at least a few small paragraphs in the CVS manual. I think you should write more... when you're not busy being insane, you're very helpful. And I can't wait to ask somebody, "are you out of the 'woods' yet?" On second thought, maybe now I see your point. So which one of your books is "The Harrison" anyway? "Effective Tcl/Tk Programming" is the "Harrison and McLennan", often familiarly referred to as the "MM" (for Mark Michael). Brian Kernigan told us that its one of the few books that moved immediately from his shelf to his desk. Cheers, Mark ___ Info-cvs mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-cvs
RE: [Info-cvs] Re: What is Cederqvist?
Just one more question (and it's not specific to this entry): When will this thread die? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Mark Harrison Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 8:32 PM To: Greg A. Woods Cc: CVS-II Discussion Mailing List Subject: [Info-cvs] Re: What is Cederqvist? From: Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] Like I said, it would depend on who you are And I don't speak for Per Cederqvist either, but I have written at least a few small paragraphs in the CVS manual. I think you should write more... when you're not busy being insane, you're very helpful. And I can't wait to ask somebody, "are you out of the 'woods' yet?" On second thought, maybe now I see your point. So which one of your books is "The Harrison" anyway? "Effective Tcl/Tk Programming" is the "Harrison and McLennan", often familiarly referred to as the "MM" (for Mark Michael). Brian Kernigan told us that its one of the few books that moved immediately from his shelf to his desk. Cheers, Mark ___ Info-cvs mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-cvs ___ Info-cvs mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/info-cvs
Re: What is Cederqvist?
[ On Thursday, September 14, 2000 at 14:44:29 (-0700), Craig Saunders wrote: ] Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? You are the "old-timer" that I referred to. And as I recall, you did not use the full name of the manual... sarcasm what was that I said about using "the CVS manual" again!?!?!?!!? /sarcasm Furthermore, I would have initiated and kept an FAQ of the form you now suggest if I hadn't been shot down in flames. (It's about the level of contribution I could commit to since I'm not as good as other contributors at bit twiddling.) If I recall correctly the majority of information that it seemed you were interested in documenting was stuff that really really really needed to go in the manual. It's bad enough that people publish bits of good documentation on their web pages instead of submitting it for inclusion in the manual. Having a FAQ document that includes such information, even one posted to this forum, is still a far less than ideal way to provide technical documentation to those who require it. Meanwhile 99.9% of the "frequent" questions I see posted are already clearly documented in the CVS manual, and the remainder are there but perhaps not clear enough or easy enough to find. BTW, although I believe exactly what I say above, I was definitely not the first to say it Normally, I keep my whining to myself but this was an opportunity to demonstrate that you need to consider how your public comments are received. If you had made a positive comment, or at least tried to figure out why I made the suggestion in the first place, we would already have an FAQ. If you really wanted to write a FAQ you would have. Nothing I or anyone else says or does can prevent you from publishing whatever you wish, in any public forum you wish, including this one. As a result it would seem to me that you must have agreed with what has been said on the relative lack of utility of any FAQ on this subject! -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] robohack!woods Planix, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Secrets of the Weird [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Cederqvist?
[ On , September 14, 2000 at 17:28:30 (-0700), Russ Allbery wrote: ] Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? Greg A Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ On Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:15:25 (-0700), Tom Werges wrote: ] In my opinion, referring to a standard document by the last name of its author is not snooty or superior. I suppose that depends on who you are. In my opinion it does very much the opposite of giving credit to the author, especially when used It's very common practice in academia and has been picked up by some related communities. Consider "Stevens" for _Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment_ or _Unix Network Programming_ depending on context, "Knuth" for _The Art of Computer Programming_, "KR" for _The C Programming Language_, etc. I'm very well aware of those usages of the author's name. Perhaps you've missed the significance of the word "the" in the phrase used (i.e. "The Cederqvist"). When you refer to a book by its author's name it is generally only acceptable to do so in a context where you are referring to what the author says. For example: "Stevens says clearly that the IP layer must support default routes." In those cases it's irrelevent whether you refer to what he might have said in print or in person. If you ask "When did he say that?" I can answer "In his TCP/IP tome vol.1 pg. 114." Indeed in common colloquial speech many of us might contract "Have you got your copy of Stevens handy?" into something slangish like "Got your Stevens there?". Such slang shouldn't really be used in written communications though, especially not in a public forum like info-cvs. Referring to a book as "The last-name" is objectifying and disembodying the person who wrote the book and reducing them to one sole example of their creative efforts (even if they did only create one such work to the best of your knowledge!). The question should not be "what" but "who". The fact that it was asked in the way it was proves my point succinctly. Not only that but despite the very major contribution by Per Cederqvist in creating the original version of the current CVS manual, it is not his alone any longer. Many of us have made significant changes to the CVS manual since it was first adopted as the official CVS documentation. The appearance of the phrase "The Cederqvist" has *always* grated on my nerves and I deplore its use! -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] robohack!woods Planix, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Secrets of the Weird [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Cederqvist?
Greg, you are so cute when you are like this. Greg A. Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] Referring to a book as "The last-name" is objectifying and disembodying the person who wrote the book and reducing them to one sole example of their creative efforts (even if they did only create one such work to the best of your knowledge!). It does not. I'm the author of 3 books, and it is actually quite pleasant to know that you've written a book that is well enough received to become known by your name. Mark.
Re: What is Cederqvist?
Please please no more Cederqvist arguments! This list has enough traffic normally without such things... you guys should take it off line if you'd like to discuss it further. Thanks, - Casey
Re: What is Cederqvist?
[ On Friday, September 15, 2000 at 23:04:40 (+0800), Mark Harrison wrote: ] Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? It does not. I'm the author of 3 books, and it is actually quite pleasant to know that you've written a book that is well enough received to become known by your name. Like I said, it would depend on who you are And I don't speak for Per Cederqvist either, but I have written at least a few small paragraphs in the CVS manual. So which one of your books is "The Harrison" anyway? Not to degrade any of your books, but that makes it sounds more like a wrestling move or something else physical There's also still the other non-trivial issue of just who actually wrote whatever anyone might be referring to if they refer to the CVS manual as if it is the initial author of the first version. For example you'd be on a lot thinner ice if you referred to "TCP/IP Illustrated, Volume 2: The Implementation" by Gary R. Wright and W. Richard Stevens as "The Stevens" (or even in the more proper way as "Stevens says"). You can only do that for vol.1 and vol.3. In the same way people don't call "The C Programming Language" "The Ritchie", but rather "KR". (And I'm not thinking of myself here either -- my contribution to the manual is very tiny in comparison.) Though I haven't managed to get a working connection that'll let me run "cvs annotate" on the manual source, I'm reasonably certain that by now it would only be fair to refer to the authors of the manual at least as "Cederqvist et al". -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] robohack!woods Planix, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Secrets of the Weird [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Cederqvist?
[ On Friday, September 15, 2000 at 11:49:43 (-0400), Rich Salz wrote: ] Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? Well this old timer really thinks it very very very bad form to refer to something like this by the disembodied name of its creator What, you've never heard "according to Hoyle" or "as it says in Webster's" Lawyer's will also talk about "Black's" (law dictionary) and Chemists the "CRC", etc. "according to Hoyle" != "according to The Hoyle" "as it says in Webster's" != "as it says in The Webster's" "Black's" != "The Black's" Hoyle (as in Mr. Hoyle) did say the things one might refer to when one says "according to Hoyle" (though that's a bit poor as an example, IIRC, because it's also the title!). However "The Hoyle", whatever that is, did not say those things. I guess even "Webster's" is a bad example because that word is actually part of the title too so in colloquial communications it is a sufficiently specific contraction to be usable Yes it's a fine point, but it really really really gets on my nerves! It's even more annoying than all the times seemingly otherwise literate people use the non-word "definately" (Arrrgh!). -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] robohack!woods Planix, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Secrets of the Weird [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Cederqvist?
[ On Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 15:34:02 (-0700), Craig Saunders wrote: ] Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? I find this all very amusing because when I suggested that we should have an FAQ (which would include answers to questions like this) I was told by the loud, obnoxious old-timers that we don't need an FAQ - All the answers are in The Cederqvist. Well this old timer really thinks it very very very bad form to refer to something like this by the disembodied name of its creator (and I hope I've never ever used that phrase in any way!). Stupid contractions like this are what create meaningless jargon in the first place. If people want to give credit to Per Cederqvist (credit which he very much deserves I might add!), they should refer to the manual as ``Per Cederqvist's CVS Manual''. As for an FAQ, well when Per Cederqvist wrote the first version of the current CVS manual it was to replace the old FAQ which had become totally and absolutely unwieldy. It was impossible to use yet people were trying to use it in lieu of a proper manual. Indeed a FAQ in the old form should never be necessary in this context. If the documentation for a software package does not answer all questions, frequent and infrequent, in a way that's easy to find and understand then the solution is most definitely not to create a FAQ, especially not in th modern way such FAQs are written from scratch by one person as a unique new document on their own. However a FAQ, of course in the form of a true FAQ which answers questions outside the scope of the manual, of which there was once a half decent one posted monthly to the list, is a different story Often though such FAQs are far more effort than they're worth in this day of web pages and search engines. -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] robohack!woods Planix, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Secrets of the Weird [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What is Cederqvist?
[ On Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:15:25 (-0700), Tom Werges wrote: ] Subject: RE: What is Cederqvist? In my opinion, referring to a standard document by the last name of its author is not snooty or superior. I suppose that depends on who you are. In my opinion it does very much the opposite of giving credit to the author, especially when used It would be annoying to have to list the full title and author in every reference. In the "real world" this is not considered "annoying" -- it is in fact standard practice both in published writings and in speech. If indeed you wish to refer to the CVS manual without naming it's full title and author then the correct prase would be "the CVS manual". -- Greg A. Woods +1 416 218-0098 VE3TCP [EMAIL PROTECTED] robohack!woods Planix, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Secrets of the Weird [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Cederqvist?
Greg A Woods [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ On Tuesday, September 12, 2000 at 17:15:25 (-0700), Tom Werges wrote: ] In my opinion, referring to a standard document by the last name of its author is not snooty or superior. I suppose that depends on who you are. In my opinion it does very much the opposite of giving credit to the author, especially when used It's very common practice in academia and has been picked up by some related communities. Consider "Stevens" for _Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment_ or _Unix Network Programming_ depending on context, "Knuth" for _The Art of Computer Programming_, "KR" for _The C Programming Language_, etc. When I was still in school, it was very common to refer to any textbook by the last name of the author, primarily because textbooks often have very normal and undistinctive names. The only way one could keep track of different physics textbooks was by author, for example; otherwise, you end up having to remember if the book was _Physics_, _Elementary Physics_, _Introductory Physics_, _Physics: An Introduction_, or something else that sounds almost the same. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
Re: What is Cederqvist?
From: Jerry Nairn [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with most of your comments, but there is a FAQ at: http://www.loria.fr/cgi-bin/molli/fom.cgi Cheers, Jerry Which is not updated with QA from the list nor posted to the mailing list periodically. Also, with a personal bias, I find it difficult to navigate the FAQ-O-MATIC. At one time, I suggested an FAQ built with questions answered on the mailing list. It would reference resources such as the Cederqvist and others. It would be kept on some web site such as the FAQ-O-MATIC so that folks could get it whenever they needed it. It would be posted periodically to the mailing list so that newbies other lurkers would see it go by, hopefully before the asked their own. If Greg thinks it would be a good idea and he (and others) would be willing to forward their answers of FAQ's, I would be willing to edit and compile the FAQ list, post it regularly and keep it on a publicly accessible web site. (I would also scan the mailing list for potential FAQ's and proactively update the FAQ list. And, with a little reluctance, reconcile when old-timers have different opinions on how to answer a question.) That is what I proposed before. That offer is still open. Craig
Re: What is Cederqvist?
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 04:59:46PM -0700, W. Reilly Cooley, Esq. wrote: On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 04:25:06PM -0700, Matthew Berney wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Cederqvist? Is it a user manual, some arcane CVS lore? I have seen many references to it here on the CVS digest. cvs.ps in the CVS source (and probably binary) distributions. In other words, the authoritative CVS documentation that comes with the package (doc/cvs.texinfo and all its derived formats). Why not just refer to it as such? To call it "The Cederqvist" instead implies that it is, as Mr. Berney suggested, "some arcane CVS lore". It may acknowledge Per's important contribution at some time in the distant past, but in the present it's merely confusing to those who are not in the CVS "club". Indeed, I'm glad to have someone finally confirm my theory that "The Cederqvist" and cvs.info are one and the same -- and I've been using CVS since version 1.2 or 1.3. Technical terminology is one thing; jargon for its own sake risks the charge of willful obscurantism. -- | | /\ |-_|/ Eric Siegerman, Toronto, Ont.[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | / Nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft -- but they could get fired for relying on Microsoft. - Chris Garrigues
RE: What is Cederqvist?
From: Eric Siegerman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 11:24 AM Technical terminology is one thing; jargon for its own sake risks the charge of willful obscurantism. This document is sometimes called "Cederqvist," sometimes "the manual," sometimes "Version Management with CVS, by Per Cederqvist, et al," and sometimes "the authoritative CVS documentation that comes with the package (doc/cvs.texinfo and all its derived formats)." All of these are simply adequate, accepted names of a ubiquitous document. This is not a matter of using "jargon for its own sake." It should not be necessary to describe the document and how to get it every time it is mentioned in this list. Jerry
Re: What is Cederqvist?
At 2000-09-12 14:24 -0400, Eric Siegerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, I'm glad to have someone finally confirm my theory that "The Cederqvist" and cvs.info are one and the same -- and I've been using CVS since version 1.2 or 1.3. Technical terminology is one thing; jargon for its own sake risks the charge of willful obscurantism. On the other hand, I'm a total newbie to CVS, but one of the first things I found out was what the "Cederqvist" was. Of course, that doesn't mean to say that it should be referred to as the "Cederqvist" in official documentation (without explanation, at least). In casual conversation, I see no harm in calling it the "Cederqvist" (and, in fact, it has positive benefits). If someone doesn't know what it is, they can always ask, in that case. David Trudgett
Re: What is Cederqvist?
I find this all very amusing because when I suggested that we should have an FAQ (which would include answers to questions like this) I was told by the loud, obnoxious old-timers that we don't need an FAQ - All the answers are in The Cederqvist. But what if you don't know what The Cederqvist is? :*) My conclusion is that the old-timers want to have their obscure lingo so that they can feel superior. They can then separate themselves from the masses while at the same time, still feel good by professing to want to help the down-trodden with open-source projects. Uggh. It's also a way they can use to differentiate who to flame. Craig Saunders - Original Message - From: David Trudgett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 2:36 PM Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? At 2000-09-12 14:24 -0400, Eric Siegerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, I'm glad to have someone finally confirm my theory that "The Cederqvist" and cvs.info are one and the same -- and I've been using CVS since version 1.2 or 1.3. Technical terminology is one thing; jargon for its own sake risks the charge of willful obscurantism. On the other hand, I'm a total newbie to CVS, but one of the first things I found out was what the "Cederqvist" was. Of course, that doesn't mean to say that it should be referred to as the "Cederqvist" in official documentation (without explanation, at least). In casual conversation, I see no harm in calling it the "Cederqvist" (and, in fact, it has positive benefits). If someone doesn't know what it is, they can always ask, in that case. David Trudgett
RE: What is Cederqvist?
Isn't this the case with _EVERY_ board/list? My conclusion is that the old-timers want to have their obscure lingo so that they can feel superior. They can then separate themselves from the masses while at the same time, still feel good by professing to want to help the down-trodden with open-source projects. Uggh. It's also a way they can use to differentiate who to flame. Craig Saunders
Re: What is Cederqvist?
- Original Message - From: Craig Saunders [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2000 6:34 PM Subject: Re: What is Cederqvist? I find this all very amusing because when I suggested that we should have an FAQ (which would include answers to questions like this) I was told by the loud, obnoxious old-timers that we don't need an FAQ - All the answers are in The Cederqvist. But what if you don't know what The Cederqvist is? :*) Go to the CVS home page, browse and in less than 10 minutes you'll know (that and more!). My conclusion is that the old-timers want to have their obscure lingo so that they can feel superior. They can then separate themselves from the masses while at the same time, still feel good by professing to want to help the down-trodden with open-source projects. Uggh. I'm brand new to CVS (relatively). However, I took the time to research a bit. Indeed, I'm glad to have someone finally confirm my theory that "The Cederqvist" and cvs.info are one and the same -- and I've been using CVS since version 1.2 or 1.3. Technical terminology is one thing; jargon for its own sake risks the charge of willful obscurantism. On the other hand, I'm a total newbie to CVS, but one of the first things I found out was what the "Cederqvist" was. Ditto!
RE: What is Cederqvist?
In my opinion, referring to a standard document by the last name of its author is not snooty or superior. It would be annoying to have to list the full title and author in every reference. An entry should be added to a faq for this question. That way, people new to CVS could instantly find out what "Cederqvist" means. And, the old timers you speak of would no longer have a basis for their superiority. tom On Tue, 12 Sep 2000, Shawn Anderson wrote: Isn't this the case with _EVERY_ board/list? My conclusion is that the old-timers want to have their obscure lingo so that they can feel superior. They can then separate themselves from the masses while at the same time, still feel good by professing to want to help the down-trodden with open-source projects. Uggh. It's also a way they can use to differentiate who to flame. Craig Saunders
Re: What is Cederqvist?
On Mon, Sep 11, 2000 at 04:25:06PM -0700, Matthew Berney wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Cederqvist? Is it a user manual, some arcane CVS lore? I have seen many references to it here on the CVS digest. The reference I use most frequently is "Open Source Development with CVS", by Karl Fogel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). cvs.ps in the CVS source (and probably binary) distributions. Wil -- W. Reilly Cooley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Naked Ape Consulting http://nakedape.cc LNXS: Linux/GNU for servers, networks, and http://lnxs.org people who take care of them. *Now with integrated crypto!* irc.openprojects.net #lnxs The penalty for laughing in a courtroom is six months in jail; if it were not for this penalty, the jury would never hear the evidence. -- H. L. Mencken
Re: What is Cederqvist?
Well, if you look up "Cederqvist" in Karl's excellent book, he will tell you all about it. :-) Matthew Berney wrote: Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Cederqvist? Is it a user manual, some arcane CVS lore? I have seen many references to it here on the CVS digest. The reference I use most frequently is "Open Source Development with CVS", by Karl Fogel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Matt -- According to a recent survey by the Academy of Incomplete Research, nine out of ten... Brian Collins Triple G Asia Pacific http://www.tripleg.com
RE: What is Cederqvist?
look here, and you'll see an online link to it... CVS Manual: Version Management with CVS, by Per Cederqvist et al http://www.cvshome.org/docs/index.html -teala -Original Message- From: Matthew Berney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 4:25 PM To: 'CVS Discussion Group' Subject: What is Cederqvist? Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Cederqvist? Is it a user manual, some arcane CVS lore? I have seen many references to it here on the CVS digest. The reference I use most frequently is "Open Source Development with CVS", by Karl Fogel ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Matt
