[POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
The short discussion on pop3d not changing \Seen state got me thinking about the overall interaction of pop3d and nntpd with IMAP flags. It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. My question is what do people think of the interaction between pop3d/nntpd and the \Deleted flag? Should these daemons ignore articles that have this flag set? Should a POP3 DELE command or a NNTP cancel message just set the \Deleted flag instead of expunging the message? Should any setting which enables pop3d/nntpd to use IMAP flags be global or per-mailbox? Thoughts? -- Kenneth Murchison Systems Programmer Carnegie Mellon University Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Ken Murchison wrote: The short discussion on pop3d not changing \Seen state got me thinking about the overall interaction of pop3d and nntpd with IMAP flags. It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. My question is what do people think of the interaction between pop3d/nntpd and the \Deleted flag? Should these daemons ignore articles that have this flag set? Should a POP3 DELE command or a NNTP cancel message just set the \Deleted flag instead of expunging the message? We should be able to handle all of this via imapd.conf option(s). Should any setting which enables pop3d/nntpd to use IMAP flags be global or per-mailbox? Both, with current operation being default. Per mbox option takes precedence. How are you going to enable per-mbox flags, via annotate? -- Igor Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
Ken Murchison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. I'm on the fence whether this makes sense for POP. But we've used U Wash for a long time and marking them as seen has not raised any questions that I can recall, so that behavior must be what users expect or accept. My question is what do people think of the interaction between pop3d/nntpd and the \Deleted flag? Should these daemons ignore articles that have this flag set? Should a POP3 DELE command or a NNTP cancel message just set the \Deleted flag instead of expunging the message? The RFC for POP3 actually describes DELE to mean mark as deleted, and QUIT to mean expunge and quit. I have just learned after all these years that if QUIT is not sent, the server 'MUST' not expunge. But does any client make this optional? The braintwister is that POP mark deleted and IMAP mark deleted don't need to be the same thing, so maybe POP expunge and IMAP expunge don't need to be the same thing either. The practical problem is that POP-only users would have no way to really expunge if DELE and QUIT don't do it, so they'd accumulate mail until they run out of quota. And then what do they do? This touches on the infamous problem of users who blow away their inbox accidentally by using a POP3 client that defaults to DELE on server. It's tempting to mark deleted to solve that. But it seems to me only to trade one problem for another. What we need is user-controlled unexpunge, Ken! Joseph Brennan Columbia University Information Technology Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Ken Murchison wrote: It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. I vote for this change, and if it is optional, I'd vote for it to be the default behaviour. My question is what do people think of the interaction between pop3d/nntpd and the \Deleted flag? Should these daemons ignore articles that have this flag set? Should a POP3 DELE command or a NNTP cancel message just set the \Deleted flag instead of expunging the message? I vote for two possible behaviours, selectable via imapd.conf: 1. pop3/nntp DELE/cancel sets \Delete flag. pop3 QUIT causes expunge 2. what we have now (this would be the default). Should any setting which enables pop3d/nntpd to use IMAP flags be global or per-mailbox? I'd be happy enough with it being global. If it is made per-mailbox, IMHO it would be good to have it work as follows: a global option that applies to every mailbox, and a per-mailbox annotation that overrides the global option for this mailbox subtree. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
Igor Brezac wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Ken Murchison wrote: The short discussion on pop3d not changing \Seen state got me thinking about the overall interaction of pop3d and nntpd with IMAP flags. It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. My question is what do people think of the interaction between pop3d/nntpd and the \Deleted flag? Should these daemons ignore articles that have this flag set? Should a POP3 DELE command or a NNTP cancel message just set the \Deleted flag instead of expunging the message? We should be able to handle all of this via imapd.conf option(s). Should any setting which enables pop3d/nntpd to use IMAP flags be global or per-mailbox? Both, with current operation being default. Per mbox option takes precedence. How are you going to enable per-mbox flags, via annotate? Yes, it would be a mailbox annotation. -- Kenneth Murchison Systems Programmer Carnegie Mellon University Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Ken Murchison wrote: It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. I vote for this change, and if it is optional, I'd vote for it to be the default behaviour. I'd probably leave the existing behavior as the default. -- Kenneth Murchison Systems Programmer Carnegie Mellon University Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
Joseph Brennan wrote: Ken Murchison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be fairly straightforward to have an option that updated \Seen state whenever a POP3 client issues a RETR command or an NNTP client issues a BODY or ARTICLE command. I'm on the fence whether this makes sense for POP. But we've used U Wash for a long time and marking them as seen has not raised any questions that I can recall, so that behavior must be what users expect or accept. Does UW simply mark the messages as \Seen after a RETR? I don't see any other way to determine if the user has actually read the message. The braintwister is that POP mark deleted and IMAP mark deleted don't need to be the same thing, so maybe POP expunge and IMAP expunge don't need to be the same thing either. If we do something with IMAP flags, I'd like to make the above thing equivalent. Otherwise I don't see much point. The practical problem is that POP-only users would have no way to really expunge if DELE and QUIT don't do it, so they'd accumulate mail until they run out of quota. And then what do they do? Right, which is why we need a way to allow POP3-only users to continue business as usual. Presumably, by a mailbox annotation which would disable the global pop3_use_imapflags option. -- Kenneth Murchison Systems Programmer Carnegie Mellon University Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: [POLL] pop3d/nntpd and IMAP flags
Does UW simply mark the messages as \Seen after a RETR? I don't see any other way to determine if the user has actually read the message. imap first. message 131 is not \Seen. c fetch 131 flags * 131 FETCH (FLAGS (Junk)) c OK FETCH completed z logout * BYE okari.cc.columbia.edu IMAP4rev1 server terminating connection z OK LOGOUT completed pop. retr 131 +OK 7645 octets ...blablabla quit +OK Sayonara imap again-- now it is \Seen c fetch 131 flags * 131 FETCH (FLAGS (\Seen Junk)) c OK FETCH completed Joseph Brennan Columbia University Information Technology Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
