Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
hi, Am Donnerstag, den 18.05.2006, 14:34 +0200 schrieb H. Wilmer: There is an option (I believe under Edit) to 'Purge deleted messages' which permanently deletes messages marked as to be deleted - is this what you were after? however, thunderbird is not an option, cause of missing calendar, todo list and other several things. Also the contact manger from TB is terrible. The other point is, the customer bought outlook so, they want use them. But my main problem isn't solved. Cyrus need an option to purge mails. From 100 Users, 95 don't purge the old mails via edit Purge deleted :-( -- Sicherheit verständlich http://www.sides.de GnuPG Key http://pgpkeys.pca.dfn.de:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x2A5CE192AB7D3FE0 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
hi, Am Donnerstag, den 18.05.2006, 14:34 +0200 schrieb H. Wilmer: There is an option (I believe under Edit) to 'Purge deleted messages' which permanently deletes messages marked as to be deleted - is this what you were after? however, thunderbird is not an option, cause of missing calendar, todo list and other several things. Also the contact manger from TB is terrible. The other point is, the customer bought outlook so, they want use them. But my main problem isn't solved. Cyrus need an option to purge mails. Hm, no. Cyrus is an IMAP server and it is best used with an IMAP client. I don't think there is something missing in Cyrus, but of course there is much missing in Outlook to make it a real IMAP client. From 100 Users, 95 don't purge the old mails via edit Purge deleted :-( Isn't the default policy to move to trash in Outlook? I think that way you can handle it without having the people to purge messages by hand. Simon Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
On Monday 22 May 2006 09:43, Simon Matter wrote: Isn't the default policy to move to trash in Outlook? I think that way you can handle it without having the people to purge messages by hand. No. The default in Outlook with an IMAP account is that it just strikes out the message in your message list. It's the most rediculous thing I have seen considering how every other email client out there works. wt -- Warren Turkal, Research Associate III/Systems Administrator Colorado State University, Dept. of Atmospheric Science Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
On Mon, May 22, 2006 at 10:13:56AM -0600, Warren Turkal wrote: On Monday 22 May 2006 09:43, Simon Matter wrote: Isn't the default policy to move to trash in Outlook? I think that way you can handle it without having the people to purge messages by hand. No. The default in Outlook with an IMAP account is that it just strikes out the message in your message list. It's the most rediculous thing I have seen considering how every other email client out there works. Then outlook is up to standards with its users (the ones that forget to purge the email). A perfect match. Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
--On Monday, May 22, 2006 10:13 -0600 Warren Turkal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Monday 22 May 2006 09:43, Simon Matter wrote: Isn't the default policy to move to trash in Outlook? I think that way you can handle it without having the people to purge messages by hand. No. The default in Outlook with an IMAP account is that it just strikes out the message in your message list. It's the most rediculous thing I have seen considering how every other email client out there works. Both clients I use show deleted messages with a line through them, and neither one is Outlook. Why would you call this ridiculous? It's easy to undelete by highlighting one and clicking undelete. And it reminds me they're still taking up space, which nudges me to expunge them every so often. I like controlling when my messages get wiped out. Joseph Brennan Columbia University Information Technology (asstrike-trough, n. Where donkeys dispose of their tricycles.) Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
I'm not sure I understand why you think marking deleted messages is so bad. Have you never accidentally deleted the wrong message? Only to have it totally disappear, so you're not SURE what you deleted? I'd much rather have closer control over what my mail program is doing... Jill Williams Manager, Support Technologies Group Columbia University Information Technology On May 22, 2006, at 12:13 PM, Warren Turkal wrote: On Monday 22 May 2006 09:43, Simon Matter wrote: Isn't the default policy to move to trash in Outlook? I think that way you can handle it without having the people to purge messages by hand. No. The default in Outlook with an IMAP account is that it just strikes out the message in your message list. It's the most rediculous thing I have seen considering how every other email client out there works. wt -- Warren Turkal, Research Associate III/Systems Administrator Colorado State University, Dept. of Atmospheric Science Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
On Monday 22 May 2006 10:45, you wrote: I'm not sure I understand why you think marking deleted messages is so bad. Have you never accidentally deleted the wrong message? Only to have it totally disappear, so you're not SURE what you deleted? I'd much rather have closer control over what my mail program is doing... My email clients put deleted messages into a trash bin. I can go there to retrieve messages. The fact of the matter is that most of the time someone deletes a message, they mean to do it. I believe that having an undo in case someone deletes the message accidentally is important. I just think the way that feature is implemented in Outlook for IMAP cripples the common use case where someone means to delete a message. Outlook does a very sane thing with POP mail. It moves the message to the trash folder. It does something similar when using an Exchange server. The only time that it exhibits the weird behavior is when interacting with an IMAP server. Outlook has many other problems also. Think about this one. If you only have an IMAP email account, you would probably want to show the inbox for that IMAP account by default. The only way to change the default folder for Outlook is to start editing registry keys. Why would something like that not be configurable within the program? I personally think that Outlook does what it can to make its users depend on Exchange since IMAP provides nearly all of the mail related benefits of using Exchange from the client perspective. When using Exchange, for instance, your mail magically pops up in the main inbox. It would be nice to be able to use IMAP in a mode like that. Maybe one should be able to tell Outlook that the IMAP is the only account and have it treated as such. Of course, to be fair, all mail clients have their issues. For one example, Mail.app, the Mac OS X client, removes all messages in your inbox associated with a particular POP account when you delete the account. This doesn't make sense since the message are downloaded and more than likely erased from the server. wt -- Warren Turkal, Research Associate III/Systems Administrator Colorado State University, Dept. of Atmospheric Science Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
On Monday 22 May 2006 10:29, Joseph Brennan wrote: Both clients I use show deleted messages with a line through them, and neither one is Outlook. Why would you call this ridiculous? It's easy to undelete by highlighting one and clicking undelete. And it reminds me they're still taking up space, which nudges me to expunge them every so often. I like controlling when my messages get wiped out. Clearly, there are two schools of thought here, and I totally see why this makes sense. I also know that this mode of operation is unacceptable to my users, and I have to set up the Outlook users with POP so that it acts like they expect with the trash folder. wt -- Warren Turkal, Research Associate III/Systems Administrator Colorado State University, Dept. of Atmospheric Science Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
James Yale wrote: There is an option (I believe under Edit) to 'Purge deleted messages' which permanently deletes messages marked as to be deleted - is this what you were after? Well, I'm looking for something server-side, best would be something to be run from cyrmaster, like squatter, to expunge all deleted mail from all mailboxes over the night before the backup. Most of the users here use Seamonkey :) Outlook is totally unsuited for handling mail and was kicked out some years ago because it was too troublesome, but now it leaks back in because other software relies on it. GH Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
hi, my Outlook users does not purge the mails, after delete them. Does anybody found a way, to delete the messages, that has the delete flag, or something else? Most ipurge examples needs a trash folder, but Outlook does not move the messages to a trash like folder. cu denny -- Sicherheit verständlich http://www.sides.de GnuPG Key http://pgpkeys.pca.dfn.de:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x2A5CE192AB7D3FE0 signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
Denny Schierz wrote: anybody found a way, to delete the messages, that has the delete flag, or something else? Most ipurge examples needs a trash folder, but Outlook does not move the messages to a trash like folder. Ipurge seems to delete messages based on the specs you give it as options rather than to expunge mailboxes. Is there some tool to expunge the deleted mail? GH Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
H. Wilmer wrote: Denny Schierz wrote: anybody found a way, to delete the messages, that has the delete flag, or something else? Most ipurge examples needs a trash folder, but Outlook does not move the messages to a trash like folder. Ipurge seems to delete messages based on the specs you give it as options rather than to expunge mailboxes. Is there some tool to expunge the deleted mail? GH There is an option (I believe under Edit) to 'Purge deleted messages' which permanently deletes messages marked as to be deleted - is this what you were after? Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
On Wednesday 17 May 2006 09:35, James Yale wrote: There is an option (I believe under Edit) to 'Purge deleted messages' which permanently deletes messages marked as to be deleted - is this what you were after? Is this considered to be good UI design by anyone? Or, is IMAP support just crippled in Outlook? BTW, the Mac version of Outlook (Entourage or whatever its called) also seems to have this behavior also. wt -- Warren Turkal, Research Associate III/Systems Administrator Colorado State University, Dept. of Atmospheric Science Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
We've been migrating our users from UW IMAP to Cyrus, and a few of our Outlook and Outlook Express users have been having a problem regarding deletion that they never had with UW IMAP. When they open a message up in a separate window, then close it, Outlook/Outlook Express marks the message as deleted, with a strike-through. One of our Outlook users could no longer read the message at that point. One Outlook user also reported that clicking send/receive messages didn't do anything. -- Karl Boyken, system administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] 303A MLH, Dept. of Comp. Sci. http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~boyken/ The U. of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242 319-335-2730 (voice) 319-335-3668 (fax) Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
On Mon, 2005-12-12 at 11:26 -0600, Karl Boyken wrote: We've been migrating our users from UW IMAP to Cyrus, and a few of our Outlook and Outlook Express users have been having a problem regarding deletion that they never had with UW IMAP. When they open a message up in a separate window, then close it, Outlook/Outlook Express marks the message as deleted, with a strike-through. One of our Outlook users could no longer read the message at that point. These types of issues are created by configuration options within the MUA itself - configuration options that don't contemplate the effects on an IMAP server. Opening a message and closing it to find it deleted means that they have chosen an option to automatically move read mail to another folder which would cause it to be deleted from INBOX. That's a horrible waste of resources on an IMAP server. Best I can suggest is that Computer Sciences Department get copies of the frequently used clients so they can duplicate the client optional settings, behaviors on the IMAP server and create a set of recommended settings for the various mail client applications. You should note that Microsoft deliberately cripples the IMAP capabilities within their Outlook program - rendering it a less than ideal IMAP client. One Outlook user also reported that clicking send/receive messages didn't do anything. What was it supposed to do? Craig Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
Thunderbird seems to be configured by default to _move_ the message to the Deleted Items-folder and thus they vanish from whatever folder they were. No they don't 'move'. They're simply marked as deleted, just as Outlook does, but they remain in the original folder. Try it, delete one in tbird and then connect to the very same mailbox using something like pine. You'll see the message is still there, just marked for deletion. The problem with this is wasted space. The user thinks the message is gone but it's still there taking up disk space and potentially reducing their quota. Leaving them with strikeouts at least introduces the user to the concept of 'purging their own trash'. I've found running schedule deletion tasks to be a VERY BAD IDEA. Users have all sorts of stupid notions about what being 'in the trash' means. Like they want me to go climb into the dumpster to go get the message they put in the trash 3 months ago... By the time you set a 'wide enough' window of time for automatic deletion you run out of disk space. Bottom line, I've found it's better to use strike-through marking and have the client do the purging. Some clients offer a feature to do it on leaving the application or folder, prompted by a dialog box. Works well for most users, especially the ones that want to delete it, but not really. Ugh, users A few users of ours moved over to Thunderbird because of this MS 'feature'. I think outlook's utterly crappy handling of IMAP is a more powerful motivator. Outlook Express, on the other hand, does a fine job of supporting IMAP. But the regular Outlook 2003 and past versions have had absolutely crappy IMAP handling. Such that it makes it almost impossible to use OL2003 against an IMAP server. I long since gave up on it for IMAP access. -Bill Kearney Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
Re: Outlook does not delete but displays deleted messages asstrike-trough
Bill Kearney wrote: I think outlook's utterly crappy handling of IMAP is a more powerful motivator. Outlook Express, on the other hand, does a fine job of supporting IMAP. But the regular Outlook 2003 and past versions have had absolutely crappy IMAP handling. Such that it makes it almost impossible to use OL2003 against an IMAP server. I long since gave up on it for IMAP access. I migrated users from Outlook MAPI, to Outlook IMAP against an exchange server in preparation for migrating to Cyrus. For all its flaws Outlook IMAP works better than Outlook MAPI. The only new problem was that Outlook IMAP would not properly use the Outlook special folders like calendar, tasks and contacts when accessed via IMAP. All Microsoft's Contacts, tasks, etc are is specially formated messages. It would be really nice if tbird was able to parse those messages, and use them as contacts, or calendar items. Cyrus Home Page: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus Cyrus Wiki/FAQ: http://cyruswiki.andrew.cmu.edu List Archives/Info: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/cyrus/mailing-list.html
