Re: [IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, John H. Bryant bjohnor...@rockisland.com wrote: So, what is the best antenna for seaside locations? If you can solve the liability and ownership problems that abound along most coasts, a well-grounded 1400 or 1500 foot long Beverage is likely the antenna of choice. If your antenna possibilities are any less than that, at all, then the less than 200' long Wellbrook Super Array is likely VERY close to that long Beverage and clearly a major improvement over the ALA-100 Array. This is a question we wrestled with at LBI again this year. We had the following: a - terminated 1000' BOG aimed roughly 35-40 degrees b - terminated 800' BOG aimed 230-235 degrees c - a 6' preamplified broadband loop d - a 16 x 24 ( not sure on dimensions here ) pre-amplified corner fed superloop e - Wellbrook 1530 single turn loop We determined that on any given night one antenna might prove to be the star depending on conditions, but that within that, some receptions simply did better with one antenna vs another. This may be as discussed elsewhere in the prior post due to the nature of what signal was available on the other end. It may also depend on what signals are coming in off the sides. Our conclusion was that despite the physical effort involved in totally burying a BOG in the sand ( needed to keep if from being tripped over or removed on a public beach ) we'll employ at least one BOG going forward. That begs another question also raised in this thread - the optimum length for a BOG, or more precisely, where is the length beyond which adding more isn't productive. We had determined years earlier that in our case a 1000' antenna was just as good reception-wise as a 1500'. We'll be forced to reduce our South BOG to just under 700' if we use it again as the past 3 years SUV traffic through an entry to the beach has broken it off there. My sense is that if we reduced from 1000' to 700' on the North BOG we'd probably not lose much either... Russ Edmunds Blue Bell, PA ( 360' ASL ) [15 mi NNW of Philadelphia] 40:08:45N; 75:16:04W, Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15' AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010 barefoot ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
Re: [IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons
Rus, You guys at LBI appear to have had a heck of a good time and gotten some fine DX, despite it being toward the end of the traditional Fall Season. Your question appears to have been how short is too short for a BOG. I have to observe, what difference is there between a BEV, a BOG and a BUG??? Geez, I really don't know in the context of a sandy beach. Its likely determined by how high the water table is right now how high has it been recently (as in damp sand) as well as the character and number of intervening bushes, tall grass and small trees that might raise parts of a BOG into the BEV class. I guess that I'm asking partly out of frustration of having carefully put BEVs up on 3' poles on top of a lawn on top of damp or dry sand for about a decade. Finally, one day, I ran one on the ground about 100 feet away from the one on the poles. At Grayland, that day, there was no noticeable difference. I finally quit using poles I'm not sure that some of the others ever did use poles. As far as how long? If Kaz is feeling good enough to sit at the computer, he may have differing views, but I'd say that longer is better and straight at the DX is better, until at least 1500 feet. That being said, I've used a 600 foot measured and barely grounded (heck, consider it ungrounded) BOG, right on a mowed lawn, pointing generally at central or Western Australia to DX Downunder for close to 20 years... well, on the ground for the last ten. I've well over 100 DUs QSLed as well as Tuvalu (on a longer BOG) Vanuatu, Tonga, and several other exotic island nations. Would I have heard more DUs or heard them better on a BOG pointed right at eastern Australia and 1500 feet long. Almost certainly. Unfortunately, High Tide and property ownership hits the Grayland at about the 600 to 700 foot mark, so.. I don't know what else to say, John Bryant Orcas Island, WA, USA Winradio G313e and various Ultralights Wellbrook Phased Array + Superloops At 04:02 AM 11/10/2009 -0800, you wrote: --- On Mon, 11/9/09, John H. Bryant bjohnor...@rockisland.com wrote: So, what is the best antenna for seaside locations? If you can solve the liability and ownership problems that abound along most coasts, a well-grounded 1400 or 1500 foot long Beverage is likely the antenna of choice. If your antenna possibilities are any less than that, at all, then the less than 200' long Wellbrook Super Array is likely VERY close to that long Beverage and clearly a major improvement over the ALA-100 Array. This is a question we wrestled with at LBI again this year. We had the following: a - terminated 1000' BOG aimed roughly 35-40 degrees b - terminated 800' BOG aimed 230-235 degrees c - a 6' preamplified broadband loop d - a 16 x 24 ( not sure on dimensions here ) pre-amplified corner fed superloop e - Wellbrook 1530 single turn loop We determined that on any given night one antenna might prove to be the star depending on conditions, but that within that, some receptions simply did better with one antenna vs another. This may be as discussed elsewhere in the prior post due to the nature of what signal was available on the other end. It may also depend on what signals are coming in off the sides. Our conclusion was that despite the physical effort involved in totally burying a BOG in the sand ( needed to keep if from being tripped over or removed on a public beach ) we'll employ at least one BOG going forward. That begs another question also raised in this thread - the optimum length for a BOG, or more precisely, where is the length beyond which adding more isn't productive. We had determined years earlier that in our case a 1000' antenna was just as good reception-wise as a 1500'. We'll be forced to reduce our South BOG to just under 700' if we use it again as the past 3 years SUV traffic through an entry to the beach has broken it off there. My sense is that if we reduced from 1000' to 700' on the North BOG we'd probably not lose much either... Russ Edmunds Blue Bell, PA ( 360' ASL ) [15 mi NNW of Philadelphia] 40:08:45N; 75:16:04W, Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15' AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010 barefoot ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors,
Re: [IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons
Our BOG's are laid down on the sand, parallel to the shoreline and then the sand is pushed up over them to hide them. They are along the edge of a dune fence, and there isn't much variation in height. Typically, the wire is 1/2 under the sand except for about 4 at the pedestrian entries. The lines are quite close to straight. The sand is largely dry, the water table is ordinarily a couple of feet down. My understanding from prior posts and articles is that there's roughly a 3:1 differential between a BOG and a BEV - 1 foot of BOG equals 3' of BEV. That's just a recollected ballpark number and could be misremembered. Therefore, if we use your 1500' estimate, which based on the context, I'd guess is BEV length, we'd be talking about 500'. Our terminations are accomplished by a fan of 3-4 radials of 20-30' spread out and coupled through a resistor - I don't recall the value, however I also don't recall noticing much difference between when we used no resistor and when we added one in terms of directionality. Suffice it to say, we do see good directional differences between the two BOG's. Russ Edmunds Blue Bell, PA ( 360' ASL ) [15 mi NNW of Philadelphia] 40:08:45N; 75:16:04W, Grid FN20id wb2...@yahoo.com FM: Yamaha T-80 Onkyo T-450RDS w/ APS9B @15' AM: Modified Sony ICF 2010 barefoot --- On Tue, 11/10/09, John H. Bryant bjohnor...@rockisland.com wrote: From: John H. Bryant bjohnor...@rockisland.com Subject: Re: [IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons To: Mailing list for the International Radio Club of America irca@hard-core-dx.com Date: Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 1:30 PM Rus, You guys at LBI appear to have had a heck of a good time and gotten some fine DX, despite it being toward the end of the traditional Fall Season. Your question appears to have been how short is too short for a BOG. I have to observe, what difference is there between a BEV, a BOG and a BUG??? Geez, I really don't know in the context of a sandy beach. Its likely determined by how high the water table is right now how high has it been recently (as in damp sand) as well as the character and number of intervening bushes, tall grass and small trees that might raise parts of a BOG into the BEV class. I guess that I'm asking partly out of frustration of having carefully put BEVs up on 3' poles on top of a lawn on top of damp or dry sand for about a decade. Finally, one day, I ran one on the ground about 100 feet away from the one on the poles. At Grayland, that day, there was no noticeable difference. I finally quit using poles I'm not sure that some of the others ever did use poles. As far as how long? If Kaz is feeling good enough to sit at the computer, he may have differing views, but I'd say that longer is better and straight at the DX is better, until at least 1500 feet. That being said, I've used a 600 foot measured and barely grounded (heck, consider it ungrounded) BOG, right on a mowed lawn, pointing generally at central or Western Australia to DX Downunder for close to 20 years... well, on the ground for the last ten. I've well over 100 DUs QSLed as well as Tuvalu (on a longer BOG) Vanuatu, Tonga, and several other exotic island nations. Would I have heard more DUs or heard them better on a BOG pointed right at eastern Australia and 1500 feet long. Almost certainly. Unfortunately, High Tide and property ownership hits the Grayland at about the 600 to 700 foot mark, so.. I don't know what else to say, John Bryant Orcas Island, WA, USA Winradio G313e and various Ultralights Wellbrook Phased Array + Superloops At 04:02 AM 11/10/2009 -0800, you wrote: --- On Mon, 11/9/09, John H. Bryant bjohnor...@rockisland.com wrote: So, what is the best antenna for seaside locations? If you can solve the liability and ownership problems that abound along most coasts, a well-grounded 1400 or 1500 foot long Beverage is likely the antenna of choice. If your antenna possibilities are any less than that, at all, then the less than 200' long Wellbrook Super Array is likely VERY close to that long Beverage and clearly a major improvement over the ALA-100 Array. This is a question we wrestled with at LBI again this year. We had the following: a - terminated 1000' BOG aimed roughly 35-40 degrees b - terminated 800' BOG aimed 230-235 degrees c - a 6' preamplified broadband loop d - a 16 x 24 ( not sure on dimensions here ) pre-amplified corner fed superloop e - Wellbrook 1530 single turn loop We determined that on any given night one antenna might prove to be the star depending on conditions, but that within that, some receptions simply did better with one antenna vs another. This may be as discussed elsewhere in the prior post due to the nature of what signal was available on the other end. It may also depend on what signals are coming in off the sides. Our
[IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons
At 18:22 11/8/2009, Chuck Hutton wrote: Nick Hall-Patch had his ALA-100 array at Grayland with myself and Bruce Portzer Oct. 3 and 4. During that period, we compared it with a 1400' Beverage at 320 degrees that was terminated via 3 six foot ground rods. A different antenna than a 600' Beverage, to be sure. It was no contest at all according to Nick. The Beverage was in a league by itself. Perhaps Nick can provide details if needed. The Beverage provided Chinese adio on at least 111 channels, and there are some recordings still in the can that I have not checked. Chuck At 6:22AM 11/9 Nick Hall Patch wrote: I might want to temper what Chuck has said, seeing that I am on the record now . First, the Wellbrook array could hear some things better than the big Beverage could. For example, no KFBK-1530 on the array at all except in reverse position. 1530 was effectively an Asian channel on the array, and I could hear Japanese trading places that were just garbage fighting under what was left of KFBK on the Beverage. A phased pair of Beverages would possibly (likely?) have levelled that playing field. If there was a distinct source of interference off the back end, the Wellbrook could deliver a better signal to splatter ratio. This did not always mean a better quality of DX however, because, sorry guys, size matters, at least in the antenna world; I won't venture into other worlds, but I'm sure the contents of your junk folder will tell you all you need to know. I don't really know the technical reasons for this, but it makes sense that a big antenna will deliver a more robust signal than a smaller one will. In the demodulation process, generally the more signal you have, especially in those AM sidebands, the better the readability you will have, even if there is relatively more interference as well (within limits). This is I believe the source of the difference Chuck alludes to. I've observed this locally, comparing a fine Flag antenna I have versus a more haphazard corner fed loop which has about twice the enclosed area. The Flag has observably better rejection off the back end (thereby nulling all my domestic interference with varying degrees of effectiveness), and is a quiet joy to listen with. But the corner fed loop, relatively extra splatter and all, often delivers more readable DX, as it is enclosing a larger portion of the incoming wave fronts, and delivering more raw signal which is demodulated better. It's crisper, less murky, i.e. more readable, and it looks good on the S-meter too. (and yes, bulking up the Flag's signal with a preamplifier to match the corner-fed's signal often doesn't seem to be enough) If it's a matter of real estate, the Wellbrook array wins every time however. 50m worth of a straight line will get you a darned nice antenna with, in this part of the world, rejection of pretty much all of North America's signals, leaving you with a great starting place to hear Asia and Oceania. 50m of wire will get you world class splatter in the same location, no matter how well you match it to your receiver. What is staggering about the Wellbrook array is that, according to John Bryant, it is competitive with a 600m wire, which is a Beverage antenna, at least above 1000kHz. With the price of land, that's a serious advantage. Having said all that, my feeling (and it is mostly a feeling) at this point is that if you have the opportunity to use a man-sized Beverage antenna, especially if you can enhance it with phasing as with Neil's BOGs, then you will still likely hear better DX than with the smaller and truly wonderful phased arrays. It's up to you to decide how many more years you will wait until retirement in order to be able to afford the land needed for a serious Beverage array at the seashore, hi. best wishes, Nick John Bryant's response 9:00PM 11/9 There have been several good exchanges amongst several DXers relative to antenna theory in general and comparing these two very different antennas in particular which are not directly relevant to my own remarks, so I have not reproduced them here. As far as Chuck's allusions and Nick's clear report of the comparison of his Wellbrook ALA-100 Array and Chuck's favorite 1400' well-grounded Beverage, I think that subject is well covered, too. What Chuck seems to ignore is that the Wellbrook family of Phased Arrays has gone rather far beyond the unit that Nick A/Bed with Chuck's Beverage: there are currently two new Arrays, both of which have been A/Bed at Grayland and each of which represents a very noticeable improvement over Nick's ALA-100 Array in the ability to hear very weak DX signals from an ocean-side location. The results of all of those A/B tests have been reported here; why does Chuck ignore them??? Over recent months, Wellbrook's family of non-resonant, large single turn loops has expanded from one to three. These are my personal observations of
Re: [IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons
John - I was just reporting on the comparison between Nick's unit and the Beverage we used. As we didn't have anything else to compare against the Beverage, I couldn't very well say anything else. I'll leave the summaries of all the models and the progress reports to you. After all, you're in contact with that side of things. As I drew no conclusions about the other antennas (nor mentioned them), I'd like to have my comment taken for what it is: a simple comparison of Nick's antenna and the Beverage. Chuck Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 19:46:15 -0800 To: irca@hard-core-dx.com From: bjohnor...@rockisland.com Subject: [IRCA] Beverage - Wellbrook Array Comparisons John Bryant's response 9:00PM 11/9 CLIP What Chuck seems to ignore is that the Wellbrook family of Phased Arrays has gone rather far beyond the unit that Nick A/Bed with Chuck's Beverage: there are currently two new Arrays, both of which have been A/Bed at Grayland and each of which represents a very noticeable improvement over Nick's ALA-100 Array in the ability to hear very weak DX signals from an ocean-side location. The results of all of those A/B tests have been reported here; why does Chuck ignore them??? John Bryant Orcas Island, WA, USA Winradio G313e and various Ultralights Wellbrook Phased Array + Superloops ___ ___ IRCA mailing list IRCA@hard-core-dx.com http://montreal.kotalampi.com/mailman/listinfo/irca Opinions expressed in messages on this mailing list are those of the original contributors and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of the IRCA, its editors, publishing staff, or officers For more information: http://www.ircaonline.org To Post a message: irca@hard-core-dx.com
