[jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting tomorrow
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Just a reminder that we will hold our Monthly XMPP Meeting tomorrow (Tuesday) at 19:00 UTC. The topics will focus on operational issues, communication among XMPP server deployments, building a site like mailradar.com for the XMPP network, etc. Details here: http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/operators/2009-May/000583.html Peter - -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkotmWEACgkQNL8k5A2w/vzhaQCgteoDwYGFMyfVdy0yCkDCgjh3 uMIAninxzAhfvZxCvRtda4k7PBNDbYFo =qyGf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
[jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting #2
Although I never sent out minutes from the first Monthly XMPP Meeting, I think it would be productive to hold another meeting again soon. I propose next Tuesday, April 14, at 20:00 UTC (check your local times!) in the j...@conference.jabber.org room. See you there! Peter P.S. Maybe I'll get a change to write up the minutes from MXM #1 before then: http://logs.jabber.org/j...@conference.jabber.org/2009-03-12.html smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Am 11.03.2009 um 21:19 schrieb Norman Rasmussen: It depends on if stpeter is on your roster with a subscription status of 'from' or 'both' or not. I was talking about both. rfc3921bis-07 section 4.6.2: summary: if the user is on your roster: then global can override directed, Which is a bad idea IMO. It should be only done if you EXPLICITLY want that, for example, because you had a override-directed/ in it. if the user is not on your roster, then global MUST NOT override directed. This is generally what you want. But it should be overriden in some cases, like you sign off (you shouldn't appear to the user to whom you sent a directed presence as away or dnd anymore) or you added override-directed/. -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/10/09 1:00 AM, Nathan Fritz wrote: XMPP sucks because the namespaces are incredibly inconsistent Could you explain that more? smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/10/09 5:58 AM, Pedro Melo wrote: On Mar 10, 2009, at 8:46 AM, Remko Tronçon wrote: OK, I came up with a theme for this meeting: Why I Hate XMPP. :) The idea of a groupchat sounds pretty neat, but I'm a bit worried about the anarchy that the subject entails. Looking at the thread, it feels like everybody will just be bringing up his/her personal gripes about XMPP, all of which have been discussed quite a bit in the past on the lists. I'm not sure what a groupchat about 'all problems in XMPP' will solve that a mailing list can't. On the other hand, picking a specific problem and discussing that one problem in real time, that does sound interesting to me! Right, that's where a firm room moderator is needed. C'est moi. :) I don't have a problem with a venting session first... Let people get them out of there systems. It makes it easier to work on those problems after. Yes. If we have a lot of problems to solve, we hold meetings more often. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/10/09 4:42 AM, Brett Zamir wrote: On 3/10/2009 4:37 PM, Norman Rasmussen wrote: On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com mailto:bret...@yahoo.com wrote: Nice idea... I'd like to add lack of full XML and namespace support (ok, maybe not XML with notations, external DTDs, etc., but processing instructions could have been handy)... But moving forward, no outlawing of namespaced attributes anywhere, and especially true namespacing in Data Forms... (and perhaps requiring acceptance of s:stream xmlns:s='...'/, etc., while we're at it). surely that's an implementation issue? Well, yes, but there are issues such as these in the specs: 1) RFC3920bis-09: for historical reasons MAY accept only the 'stream:' prefix Perhaps it's time to throw out all that historical backwards-compatibility stuff (it was there for jabberd 1.x). 2) RFC3921bis-08: The show/ element MUST NOT possess any attributes. (also with status/, priority/, body/, subject/) The latter could be made to state MUST NOT possess any non-namespaced attributes. IMHO we don't need to change the schemas for those elements. But it would be clearer to say there are no attributes defined for these elements. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Am 12.03.2009 um 18:59 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: On 3/10/09 1:00 AM, Nathan Fritz wrote: XMPP sucks because the namespaces are incredibly inconsistent Could you explain that more? I guess he's talking about jabber:iq:* vs. urn:xmpp:* vs. http://jabber.org/* -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/12/09 12:13 PM, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: Am 12.03.2009 um 18:59 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: On 3/10/09 1:00 AM, Nathan Fritz wrote: XMPP sucks because the namespaces are incredibly inconsistent Could you explain that more? I guess he's talking about jabber:iq:* vs. urn:xmpp:* vs. http://jabber.org/* I think so too. It can't really be helped. At least we're consistent now... Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.imwrote: 2) RFC3921bis-08: The show/ element MUST NOT possess any attributes. (also with status/, priority/, body/, subject/) The latter could be made to state MUST NOT possess any non-namespaced attributes. IMHO we don't need to change the schemas for those elements. But it would be clearer to say there are no attributes defined for these elements. I agree - those elements don't allow sub-elements (from the same or other namespaces), so why should they allow attributes? Note that point #2 only applies to the show, status, priority, body, subject elements (not message/presence/iq). Nothing is stopping you from creating 'sibling' elements to these in the same stanza with whatever element and attributes you want. -- - Norman Rasmussen - Email: nor...@rasmussen.co.za - Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
From: Norman Rasmussen nor...@rasmussen.co.za To: Jabber/XMPP software development list jdev@jabber.org Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 6:25:03 AM Subject: Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 8:07 PM, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: 2) RFC3921bis-08: The show/ element MUST NOT possess any attributes. (also with status/, priority/, body/, subject/) The latter could be made to state MUST NOT possess any non-namespaced attributes. IMHO we don't need to change the schemas for those elements. But it would be clearer to say there are no attributes defined for these elements. I agree - those elements don't allow sub-elements (from the same or other namespaces), so why should they allow attributes? Note that point #2 only applies to the show, status, priority, body, subject elements (not message/presence/iq). Nothing is stopping you from creating 'sibling' elements to these in the same stanza with whatever element and attributes you want. It sounds like Peter was essentially agreeing that attributes need not be restricted by the spec. I also agree with his point about not needing to change the schema, as it is reasonable not to explicitly allow other namespaced attributes in the schemas, since schema languages tend, very unfortunately in my opinion, not to allow other namespaced attributes by default, and it would be cumbersome to reflect such allowances everywhere, and might seem to imply we were encouraging rather than simply allowing their use. But it would be great, if the RFC could be reworded not to be so exlusive. There's really no good reason not to allow them. Yes, you can add child elements, but that might not be as semantically appealing (e.g., attributes fill a unique role in indicating meta-data for a tag--it'd be more clear what the namespaced data was referring to), nor as structurally convenient. Let 1000 namespaces bloom... :) Brett ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
- Original Message From: Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im To: Jabber/XMPP software development list jdev@jabber.org Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:15:12 AM Subject: Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting On 3/12/09 12:13 PM, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: Am 12.03.2009 um 18:59 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: On 3/10/09 1:00 AM, Nathan Fritz wrote: XMPP sucks because the namespaces are incredibly inconsistent Could you explain that more? I guess he's talking about jabber:iq:* vs. urn:xmpp:* vs. http://jabber.org/* I think so too. It can't really be helped. At least we're consistent now... While I think it is reasonable for a spec to maintain usage of such namespace forms for historical reasons (unless creating a new version of the spec entirely), since Pubsub is still only a draft, I think it really would be less confusing for it to change the namespace issue for the creating nodes action, to be under the Pubsub #owner namespace, as with the other owner tasks. Although I understand it is yet another change for previous implementers and I don't want to beat a dead horse, if a spec is not internally consistent with its usages, I really think that should be addressed. Sorry I missed the meeting, but I'm still really eager to know about whether Data Forms could be changed to support real namespaces. thanks, Brett ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/12/09 8:31 PM, Brett Zamir wrote: - Original Message From: Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im To: Jabber/XMPP software development list jdev@jabber.org Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 2:15:12 AM Subject: Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting On 3/12/09 12:13 PM, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: Am 12.03.2009 um 18:59 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: On 3/10/09 1:00 AM, Nathan Fritz wrote: XMPP sucks because the namespaces are incredibly inconsistent Could you explain that more? I guess he's talking about jabber:iq:* vs. urn:xmpp:* vs. http://jabber.org/* I think so too. It can't really be helped. At least we're consistent now... While I think it is reasonable for a spec to maintain usage of such namespace forms for historical reasons (unless creating a new version of the spec entirely), since Pubsub is still only a draft, I think it really would be less confusing for it to change the namespace issue for the creating nodes action, to be under the Pubsub #owner namespace, as with the other owner tasks. Although I understand it is yet another change for previous implementers And *not* backwards-compatible. I think this is a non-starter. and I don't want to beat a dead horse, if a spec is not internally consistent with its usages, I really think that should be addressed. I disagree. Sorry I missed the meeting, There will be others. :) but I'm still really eager to know about whether Data Forms could be changed to support real namespaces. I'll have to look up your older messages about that. I'm still struggling to catch up on email (~1000 messages in my inbox) and finish my action items from the XMPP Summit, plus deal with fun problems like the recent outbreak of groupchat spammers on the XMPP network... Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Jonathan Schleifer js-j...@webkeks.orgwrote: I'd like to bring up a topic: Directed presences. IMO, as they are now, they are quite useless. One might even consider that a bug in the RFC :). except, they're a part of how XEP-0100 works at the moment, or would you enhance the documentation in XEP-0100 to use privacy lists? -- - Norman Rasmussen - Email: nor...@rasmussen.co.za - Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/11/09 9:43 AM, Norman Rasmussen wrote: On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Jonathan Schleifer js-j...@webkeks.org mailto:js-j...@webkeks.org wrote: I'd like to bring up a topic: Directed presences. IMO, as they are now, they are quite useless. One might even consider that a bug in the RFC :). except, they're a part of how XEP-0100 works at the moment, or would you enhance the documentation in XEP-0100 to use privacy lists? They are also how you join a MUC room. I suggest that we spend our time on more productive tasks than getting rid of directed presence or change presence subscriptions to IQs or whatever. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Am 11.03.2009 um 16:50 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: They are also how you join a MUC room. I suggest that we spend our time on more productive tasks than getting rid of directed presence or change presence subscriptions to IQs or whatever. Uhm, if I'm not totally wrong, presence to='stpe...@jabber.org' showaway/show /presence to fake that I am away is part of the XMPP Core?! -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On Wed Mar 11 15:59:11 2009, Jonathan Schleifer wrote: Am 11.03.2009 um 16:50 schrieb Peter Saint-Andre: They are also how you join a MUC room. I suggest that we spend our time on more productive tasks than getting rid of directed presence or change presence subscriptions to IQs or whatever. Uhm, if I'm not totally wrong, presence to='stpe...@jabber.org' showaway/show /presence to fake that I am away is part of the XMPP Core?! No, you're signalling your availability to stpeter. That availability is allowed to be different to your general availability, this is true. And because of the interaction between directed presence and the roster, things can get complicated. I don't think that renders directed presence useless. Dave. -- Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/ - http://dave.cridland.net/ Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Am 11.03.2009 um 18:10 schrieb Dave Cridland: No, you're signalling your availability to stpeter. That availability is allowed to be different to your general availability, this is true. And because of the interaction between directed presence and the roster, things can get complicated. I could also send an unavailable and it would be the same problem. I don't think that renders directed presence useless. Well, imagine this situation: I send a presence with showdnd/show. Then my client sets me auto away and later I return. So it sends a global available presence with no show. No peter seems me again. But I sent a directed presence because I wanted that he thinks I'm busy and doesn't bother me (sorry you have to be our example here, Peter ;)). But this is renderes useless by the global presence. IMO, a global presence should not replace a directed presence. At least not until you send a global unavailable presence or tell the server some other way that you don't want that directed presence anymore. PS: No need to send to me directly and the list, I'm subscribed :). -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Jonathan Schleifer js-j...@webkeks.orgwrote: Well, imagine this situation: I send a presence with showdnd/show. Then my client sets me auto away and later I return. So it sends a global available presence with no show. No peter seems me again. But I sent a directed presence because I wanted that he thinks I'm busy and doesn't bother me (sorry you have to be our example here, Peter ;)). But this is renderes useless by the global presence. IMO, a global presence should not replace a directed presence. At least not until you send a global unavailable presence or tell the server some other way that you don't want that directed presence anymore. It depends on if stpeter is on your roster with a subscription status of 'from' or 'both' or not. rfc3921bis-07 section 4.6.2: summary: if the user is on your roster: then global can override directed, if the user is not on your roster, then global MUST NOT override directed. -- - Norman Rasmussen - Email: nor...@rasmussen.co.za - Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Hi Peter, is this meeting open to public ? If so, I'll probably be there to see. Xavier -- http://www.gnu.org http://www.april.org http://www.lolica.org ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/11/09 5:25 PM, Xavier Maillard wrote: is this meeting open to public ? If so, I'll probably be there to see. Certainly it is. Please join us! Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On Mar 10, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Nathan Fritz wrote: XMPP sucks because the namespaces are incredibly inconsistent, XML stream resets suck, and Jingle breaks all of the elegant simplicity (likely necessarily). Man, I feel guilty for writing that. XDA meeting really. Hi, my name is Pedro Melo and its been a couple of hours since I didn't wish that XMPP file transfer just works. Best regards, ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
OK, I came up with a theme for this meeting: Why I Hate XMPP. :) The idea of a groupchat sounds pretty neat, but I'm a bit worried about the anarchy that the subject entails. Looking at the thread, it feels like everybody will just be bringing up his/her personal gripes about XMPP, all of which have been discussed quite a bit in the past on the lists. I'm not sure what a groupchat about 'all problems in XMPP' will solve that a mailing list can't. On the other hand, picking a specific problem and discussing that one problem in real time, that does sound interesting to me! cheers, Remko ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Peter Saint-Andre wrote: I just started looking at Sphinx, which is used to produce documentation for Python and lots of other projects: http://sphinx.pocoo.org/ It looks intriguing to me. We started using it for Freevo some weeks ago and we like it. It is a very good documentation system. Of couse, we also like that it has some autodoc feature for Python code the XSF does not need. Dirk -- A 14.4 modem makes you want to get out and push! ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/10/2009 4:37 PM, Norman Rasmussen wrote: On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:13 AM, Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com mailto:bret...@yahoo.com wrote: Nice idea... I'd like to add lack of full XML and namespace support (ok, maybe not XML with notations, external DTDs, etc., but processing instructions could have been handy)... But moving forward, no outlawing of namespaced attributes anywhere, and especially true namespacing in Data Forms... (and perhaps requiring acceptance of s:stream xmlns:s='...'/, etc., while we're at it). surely that's an implementation issue? Well, yes, but there are issues such as these in the specs: 1) RFC3920bis-09: for historical reasons MAY accept only the 'stream:' prefix 2) RFC3921bis-08: The show/ element MUST NOT possess any attributes. (also with status/, priority/, body/, subject/) The latter could be made to state MUST NOT possess any non-namespaced attributes. In theory xml:lang SHOULD be supported, so it's not really a question. xml:lang can be supported without namespace awareness--the original XML spec (before XML Namespaces) allows, without reservation, the colon in an XML Name (as in an attribute), but according to the above issues, an implementation could theoretically (if not actually) use a parser which rejects any attributes on such elements. Brett ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 12:42 PM, Brett Zamir bret...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, yes, but there are issues such as these in the specs: 1) RFC3920bis-09: for historical reasons MAY accept only the 'stream:' prefix 2) RFC3921bis-08: The show/ element MUST NOT possess any attributes. (also with status/, priority/, body/, subject/) The latter could be made to state MUST NOT possess any non-namespaced attributes. 1) I think that refers to the fact that you can call the namespace alias whatever you want as long at it resolves to ' http://etherx.jabber.org/streams'. For compatability reasons (and people who don't understand how xml namespaces aliases work), it's preferred to use 'stream' as the namespace alias. 2) but that doesn't stop you putting attributes, (even with their own namespace), on sub-elements of body, or on your own namespaces elements. neither of these points promote / prevent creating your own namespace bindings for use on elements and their attributes. In theory xml:lang SHOULD be supported, so it's not really a question. xml:lang can be supported without namespace awareness--the original XML spec (before XML Namespaces) allows, without reservation, the colon in an XML Name (as in an attribute), but according to the above issues, an implementation could theoretically (if not actually) use a parser which rejects any attributes on such elements. true, and it's a namespace declaration, and not a attribute with namespace. -- - Norman Rasmussen - Email: nor...@rasmussen.co.za - Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/ ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Hi, 2009/3/9 Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im: I think it would be valuable to hold a groupchat once a month as a venue for community discussion. I'm calling this the Monthly XMPP Meeting or MXM (you can pronounce it like mix 'em). I propose that we hold the first discussion this Thursday, March 12, at 20:00 UTC in the chatroom at j...@conference.jabber.org. If there are topics you'd like me to put on the agenda, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just make it up. :) Add the meeting to your calendar here: http://xmpp.org/xsf/XSF.ics See you on Thursday! Peter, are you planing to publish the MXM -discussion or a summary of it later on your One Small Voice -blog for those you might miss it? br, -- Tuomas ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/10/09 2:48 PM, Tuomas Koski wrote: Hi, 2009/3/9 Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im: I think it would be valuable to hold a groupchat once a month as a venue for community discussion. I'm calling this the Monthly XMPP Meeting or MXM (you can pronounce it like mix 'em). I propose that we hold the first discussion this Thursday, March 12, at 20:00 UTC in the chatroom at j...@conference.jabber.org. If there are topics you'd like me to put on the agenda, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just make it up. :) Add the meeting to your calendar here: http://xmpp.org/xsf/XSF.ics See you on Thursday! Peter, are you planing to publish the MXM -discussion or a summary of it later on your One Small Voice -blog for those you might miss it? Yes, I'll do that. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
I'd like to bring up a topic: Directed presences. IMO, as they are now, they are quite useless. One might even consider that a bug in the RFC :). -- Jonathan PGP.sig Description: Signierter Teil der Nachricht ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/9/09 3:20 PM, anders conbere wrote: On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 10:43 AM, Peter Saint-Andre stpe...@stpeter.im wrote: I think it would be valuable to hold a groupchat once a month as a venue for community discussion. I'm calling this the Monthly XMPP Meeting or MXM (you can pronounce it like mix 'em). I propose that we hold the first discussion this Thursday, March 12, at 20:00 UTC in the chatroom at j...@conference.jabber.org. If there are topics you'd like me to put on the agenda, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just make it up. :) Hopefully I'll be there. ~ Anders Cool. I'm still waiting for your Seven Things post, too. ;-) Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/9/09 2:43 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: I think it would be valuable to hold a groupchat once a month as a venue for community discussion. I'm calling this the Monthly XMPP Meeting or MXM (you can pronounce it like mix 'em). I propose that we hold the first discussion this Thursday, March 12, at 20:00 UTC in the chatroom at j...@conference.jabber.org. If there are topics you'd like me to put on the agenda, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just make it up. :) OK, I came up with a theme for this meeting: Why I Hate XMPP. :) https://stpeter.im/?p=2528 Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 3/9/09 2:43 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: I think it would be valuable to hold a groupchat once a month as a venue for community discussion. I'm calling this the Monthly XMPP Meeting or MXM (you can pronounce it like mix 'em). I propose that we hold the first discussion this Thursday, March 12, at 20:00 UTC in the chatroom at j...@conference.jabber.org. If there are topics you'd like me to put on the agenda, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just make it up. :) OK, I came up with a theme for this meeting: Why I Hate XMPP. :) https://stpeter.im/?p=2528 Good starting point. I like the first one and have more details to it: If I want to create a client/server, what do I need to implement? Yes, there are XEP-0242 and XEP-0243, but I'm scared of before I scrolled down to that point What do I need to implement VoIP would be answer question. But back to the question about what I hate: 1. Specs are not always written for developers. It looks code on paper but it does not fit into the state machine of lib/client foo 2. Many experimental XEPs are not implemented because nobody wants to be the first. Or I can not implement it in a client without server support and It makes no sense to implement it into a server without a client using it 3. Some XEPs have a scary small scrollbar in my browser. I don't want to read everything (good example is PubSub) Dirk -- I am a friend of the working man, and I would rather be his friend than be one. -- Clarence Darrow ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/9/09 4:15 PM, Dirk Meyer wrote: Peter Saint-Andre wrote: On 3/9/09 2:43 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote: I think it would be valuable to hold a groupchat once a month as a venue for community discussion. I'm calling this the Monthly XMPP Meeting or MXM (you can pronounce it like mix 'em). I propose that we hold the first discussion this Thursday, March 12, at 20:00 UTC in the chatroom at j...@conference.jabber.org. If there are topics you'd like me to put on the agenda, please let me know. Otherwise I'll just make it up. :) OK, I came up with a theme for this meeting: Why I Hate XMPP. :) https://stpeter.im/?p=2528 Good starting point. I like the first one and have more details to it: If I want to create a client/server, what do I need to implement? Yes, there are XEP-0242 and XEP-0243, but I'm scared of before I scrolled down to that point What do I need to implement VoIP would be answer question. But back to the question about what I hate: 1. Specs are not always written for developers. It looks code on paper but it does not fit into the state machine of lib/client foo 2. Many experimental XEPs are not implemented because nobody wants to be the first. Or I can not implement it in a client without server support and It makes no sense to implement it into a server without a client using it 3. Some XEPs have a scary small scrollbar in my browser. I don't want to read everything (good example is PubSub) One solution here is to build out a developer-oriented documentation site. As we discussed in Brussels, Python developers don't read the PEPs, they read the docs. We have only XEPs because it's a lot of work to write developer-friendly docs, but we have a start here: http://xmpp.org/tech/ Let's build that out further at that site or on wiki.xmpp.org. Well, at least that's one idea, I don't want to stifle discussion of other possible solutions. Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
Peter Saint-Andre wrote: One solution here is to build out a developer-oriented documentation site. As we discussed in Brussels, Python developers don't read the PEPs, they read the docs. Right We have only XEPs because it's a lot of work to write developer-friendly docs, but we have a start here: http://xmpp.org/tech/ Let's build that out further at that site or on wiki.xmpp.org. I don't want to start a discussion now, but a wiki may be better since everyone can add stuff. And I missed something I hate about XMPP: the name. You can google something, you can send a mail, browse the web, you can even skype someone. But I can't XMPP -- it is not word. Dirk -- Quitters never win, and winners never quit, but those who never quit AND never win are idiots. ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
2009/3/9 Dirk Meyer dme...@tzi.de: snip And I missed something I hate about XMPP: the name. You can google something, you can send a mail, browse the web, you can even skype someone. But I can't XMPP -- it is not word. The POV of the Coccinella project is like these keywords in the description: Coccinella is a [..] communication tool [..] people. The right word for XMPP-based real-time text message based communication and presence communication between people should be instant messaging, not Jabbering or some other geek speak. Also Jabber ID is bad. Compare: * bad, but people do not yet know it's bad : Can I get your MSN address? * bad and people know it's bad: Can I get your Outlook address? * good, and this is obvious to people: Can I get your email address? * good, but people still need to understand this is obvious: Can I get your instant messaging address? The XMPP name and the XMPP logo should be *only* used to help people to associate software/services with open standards. E.g. http://coccinella.im/about#xmpp Another example is the attached screenshot of Coccinella's Add Contact dialog. As you can see XMPP is presented as the superior *default* system whilst other chat systems like MSN and AIM in the dropdown list (not on the screenshot) will be associated by the user as inferior (which indeed is true as we know ;-) ). PS: the goal is that this dropdown box can be removed in the future ;-) Related reading: http://coccinella.im/jabber-is-confusing -- Mvg, Sander Devrieze. attachment: Afbeelding 1.png___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
Re: [jdev] Monthly XMPP Meeting
On 3/9/09 4:46 PM, Dirk Meyer wrote: Peter Saint-Andre wrote: One solution here is to build out a developer-oriented documentation site. As we discussed in Brussels, Python developers don't read the PEPs, they read the docs. Right We have only XEPs because it's a lot of work to write developer-friendly docs, but we have a start here: http://xmpp.org/tech/ Let's build that out further at that site or on wiki.xmpp.org. I don't want to start a discussion now, but a wiki may be better since everyone can add stuff. I just started looking at Sphinx, which is used to produce documentation for Python and lots of other projects: http://sphinx.pocoo.org/ It looks intriguing to me. And I missed something I hate about XMPP: the name. You can google something, you can send a mail, browse the web, you can even skype someone. Well that's what the word jabber is for. :P But I can't XMPP -- it is not word. At FOSDEM someone walked up to the table and said to me so what is zimpy? (pronouncing XMPP as zimpy). Peter -- Peter Saint-Andre https://stpeter.im/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ JDev mailing list Forum: http://www.jabberforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=20 Info: http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/jdev Unsubscribe: jdev-unsubscr...@jabber.org ___
