Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

['Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers]

Awww I'm so happy they care so much about me

But that's actually really awesome news. Gitter was a really good idea that
was never completed.


On Wed., Sep. 30, 2020, 6:49 a.m. Oleg Nenashev, 
wrote:

> To make Gavin happy, GitLab handed over Gitter to Element. Element plans
> to gradually make Gitter "just" a client for matrix.
>
>- https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix
>- https://element.io/blog/gitter-is-joining-element/
>
> Good times. If done properly, it would definitely help to address many
> concerns about Gitter.
>
> Best regards,
> Oleg
>
> On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 10:05:57 PM UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Any thoughts on Zulip?
>>
>> They have an open source sponsorship for their cloud version:
>> https://zulip.com/for/open-source/
>>
>> There's a server you can try it out on here:
>> https://chat.zulip.org/
>>
>> Google, GitHub etc are all supported for auth to.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Tim
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 30 May 2020 at 18:44, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>>
>>> I would be happy to do that. We have already established an onboarding
>>> process, and there was a proposal in thus thread to have regular meetings
>>> to do knowledge transfers. It got lost in the chat discussions
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 30, 2020, 18:33 Sladyn Nunes  wrote:
>>>
 Another aspect that could be explored is having a sort of mentorship
 kind of a programme/channel . Just like the Linux kernel has a kernel
 mentorship program to coach new developers into contributing to the core,
 maybe we could have Jenkins core-mentorship coaching more new developers
 into contributing to the core and making it better.
 Cheers.

 On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:31 PM Oleg Nenashev 
 wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just a heads-up I occasionally created a "#jenkins-release" channel on
> Freenode. Until we have a better decision in this thread, I suggest using
> this channel for runtime communications between the Jenkins release team
> and contributors who want to join. Final solution is still up for a
> discussion.
>
> Pull request which adds the channel to the maintainer guide:
> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/4691
>
> BR, Oleg
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 9:57:47 PM UTC+2, Vlad Silverman wrote:
>>
>> I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops
>> teams - https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing
>> mattermost and slack are pretty obvious -
>> https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/ :-)
>> Just my 2c
>>
>> Thx, Vlad
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team
>>> 
>>>  thread
>>> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels 
>>> for
>>> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime
>>> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between 
>>> maintainers,
>>> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such 
>>> kind
>>> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers 
>>> makes
>>> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, 
>>> we
>>> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in 
>>> the
>>> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>>>
>>> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active
>>> contributors:
>>>
>>>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers
>>>in Gitter
>>>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for
>>>core maintainers?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your time,
>>> Oleg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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> 
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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Oleg Nenashev]

To make Gavin happy, GitLab handed over Gitter to Element. Element plans to 
gradually make Gitter "just" a client for matrix.

   - https://matrix.org/blog/2020/09/30/welcoming-gitter-to-matrix
   - https://element.io/blog/gitter-is-joining-element/

Good times. If done properly, it would definitely help to address many 
concerns about Gitter.

Best regards,
Oleg

On Thursday, July 16, 2020 at 10:05:57 PM UTC+2 timja...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi
>
> Any thoughts on Zulip?
>
> They have an open source sponsorship for their cloud version:
> https://zulip.com/for/open-source/
>
> There's a server you can try it out on here:
> https://chat.zulip.org/
>
> Google, GitHub etc are all supported for auth to.
>
> Thanks
> Tim
>
>
> On Sat, 30 May 2020 at 18:44, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>
>> I would be happy to do that. We have already established an onboarding 
>> process, and there was a proposal in thus thread to have regular meetings 
>> to do knowledge transfers. It got lost in the chat discussions
>>
>> On Sat, May 30, 2020, 18:33 Sladyn Nunes  wrote:
>>
>>> Another aspect that could be explored is having a sort of mentorship 
>>> kind of a programme/channel . Just like the Linux kernel has a kernel 
>>> mentorship program to coach new developers into contributing to the core, 
>>> maybe we could have Jenkins core-mentorship coaching more new developers 
>>> into contributing to the core and making it better.
>>> Cheers.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:31 PM Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,

 Just a heads-up I occasionally created a "#jenkins-release" channel on 
 Freenode. Until we have a better decision in this thread, I suggest using 
 this channel for runtime communications between the Jenkins release team 
 and contributors who want to join. Final solution is still up for a 
 discussion.

 Pull request which adds the channel to the maintainer guide: 
 https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/4691

 BR, Oleg


 On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 9:57:47 PM UTC+2, Vlad Silverman wrote:
>
> I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops 
> teams - https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing 
> mattermost and slack are pretty obvious - 
> https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/ :-)
> Just my 2c
>
> Thx, Vlad
>
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team 
>> 
>>  thread 
>> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels 
>> for 
>> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime 
>> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between 
>> maintainers, 
>> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such 
>> kind 
>> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers 
>> makes 
>> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, 
>> we 
>> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in 
>> the 
>> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>>
>> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active 
>> contributors:
>>
>>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers 
>>in Gitter
>>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for 
>>core maintainers? 
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> Oleg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>> 

Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Tim Jacomb]

Hi

Any thoughts on Zulip?

They have an open source sponsorship for their cloud version:
https://zulip.com/for/open-source/

There's a server you can try it out on here:
https://chat.zulip.org/

Google, GitHub etc are all supported for auth to.

Thanks
Tim


On Sat, 30 May 2020 at 18:44, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:

> I would be happy to do that. We have already established an onboarding
> process, and there was a proposal in thus thread to have regular meetings
> to do knowledge transfers. It got lost in the chat discussions
>
> On Sat, May 30, 2020, 18:33 Sladyn Nunes  wrote:
>
>> Another aspect that could be explored is having a sort of mentorship kind
>> of a programme/channel . Just like the Linux kernel has a kernel mentorship
>> program to coach new developers into contributing to the core, maybe we
>> could have Jenkins core-mentorship coaching more new developers into
>> contributing to the core and making it better.
>> Cheers.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:31 PM Oleg Nenashev 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Just a heads-up I occasionally created a "#jenkins-release" channel on
>>> Freenode. Until we have a better decision in this thread, I suggest using
>>> this channel for runtime communications between the Jenkins release team
>>> and contributors who want to join. Final solution is still up for a
>>> discussion.
>>>
>>> Pull request which adds the channel to the maintainer guide:
>>> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/4691
>>>
>>> BR, Oleg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 9:57:47 PM UTC+2, Vlad Silverman wrote:

 I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops
 teams - https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing
 mattermost and slack are pretty obvious -
 https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/ :-)
 Just my 2c

 Thx, Vlad

 On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team
> 
>  thread
> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels 
> for
> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime
> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers,
> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind
> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes
> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we
> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in 
> the
> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>
> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active
> contributors:
>
>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers
>in Gitter
>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for
>core maintainers?
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Oleg
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>>> 
>>> .
>>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Oleg Nenashev]

I would be happy to do that. We have already established an onboarding
process, and there was a proposal in thus thread to have regular meetings
to do knowledge transfers. It got lost in the chat discussions

On Sat, May 30, 2020, 18:33 Sladyn Nunes  wrote:

> Another aspect that could be explored is having a sort of mentorship kind
> of a programme/channel . Just like the Linux kernel has a kernel mentorship
> program to coach new developers into contributing to the core, maybe we
> could have Jenkins core-mentorship coaching more new developers into
> contributing to the core and making it better.
> Cheers.
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:31 PM Oleg Nenashev 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Just a heads-up I occasionally created a "#jenkins-release" channel on
>> Freenode. Until we have a better decision in this thread, I suggest using
>> this channel for runtime communications between the Jenkins release team
>> and contributors who want to join. Final solution is still up for a
>> discussion.
>>
>> Pull request which adds the channel to the maintainer guide:
>> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/4691
>>
>> BR, Oleg
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 9:57:47 PM UTC+2, Vlad Silverman wrote:
>>>
>>> I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops
>>> teams - https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing
>>> mattermost and slack are pretty obvious -
>>> https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/ :-)
>>> Just my 2c
>>>
>>> Thx, Vlad
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:

 Hi all,

 In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team
 
  thread
 we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels for
 Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime
 communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers,
 etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind
 of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes
 me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we
 could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the
 screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.

 I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active
 contributors:

- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in
Gitter
- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for
core maintainers?

 Thanks for your time,
 Oleg





 --
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>> 
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Sladyn Nunes]

Another aspect that could be explored is having a sort of mentorship kind
of a programme/channel . Just like the Linux kernel has a kernel mentorship
program to coach new developers into contributing to the core, maybe we
could have Jenkins core-mentorship coaching more new developers into
contributing to the core and making it better.
Cheers.

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 6:31 PM Oleg Nenashev  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Just a heads-up I occasionally created a "#jenkins-release" channel on
> Freenode. Until we have a better decision in this thread, I suggest using
> this channel for runtime communications between the Jenkins release team
> and contributors who want to join. Final solution is still up for a
> discussion.
>
> Pull request which adds the channel to the maintainer guide:
> https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/4691
>
> BR, Oleg
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 9:57:47 PM UTC+2, Vlad Silverman wrote:
>>
>> I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops
>> teams - https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing
>> mattermost and slack are pretty obvious -
>> https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/ :-)
>> Just my 2c
>>
>> Thx, Vlad
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team
>>> 
>>>  thread
>>> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels for
>>> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime
>>> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers,
>>> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind
>>> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes
>>> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we
>>> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the
>>> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>>>
>>> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active
>>> contributors:
>>>
>>>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in
>>>Gitter
>>>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for
>>>core maintainers?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your time,
>>> Oleg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Oleg Nenashev]

Hi all,

Just a heads-up I occasionally created a "#jenkins-release" channel on 
Freenode. Until we have a better decision in this thread, I suggest using 
this channel for runtime communications between the Jenkins release team 
and contributors who want to join. Final solution is still up for a 
discussion.

Pull request which adds the channel to the maintainer guide: 
https://github.com/jenkinsci/jenkins/pull/4691

BR, Oleg


On Tuesday, April 14, 2020 at 9:57:47 PM UTC+2, Vlad Silverman wrote:
>
> I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops 
> teams - https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing 
> mattermost and slack are pretty obvious - 
> https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/ :-)
> Just my 2c
>
> Thx, Vlad
>
> On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team 
>> 
>>  thread 
>> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels for 
>> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime 
>> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, 
>> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind 
>> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes 
>> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we 
>> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the 
>> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>>
>> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active 
>> contributors:
>>
>>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in 
>>Gitter
>>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for core 
>>maintainers? 
>>
>> Thanks for your time,
>> Oleg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Vlad Silverman]

I also think that mattermost is a reasonable chat solution for devops teams 
- https://github.com/mattermost.  Besides results of comparing mattermost 
and slack are pretty obvious - https://mattermost.com/mattermost-vs-slack/
 :-)
Just my 2c

Thx, Vlad

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 5:17:38 AM UTC-7, Oleg Nenashev wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team 
> 
>  thread 
> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels for 
> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime 
> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, 
> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind 
> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes 
> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we 
> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the 
> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>
> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active 
> contributors:
>
>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in 
>Gitter
>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for core 
>maintainers? 
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Oleg
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

['Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers]

I started
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F3Yj-X6y9SbdiQ1UX5aYEA3Z73rZMhw6WozvesvQ-QI/edit?usp=sharing
yesterday to take some rough notes. My vote is still matrix!

On Sun, Apr 12, 2020 at 11:49 AM Daniel Beck  wrote:

>
>
> > On 11. Apr 2020, at 19:53, Radosław Antoniuk 
> wrote:
> >
> > For me the availability of on-line archive of online chats, whether it
> be IRC or Slack is not an argument for the tool, especially for the
> external communication - for internal communication of the core
> contributors, it might be different.
>
>
> I've had quite a few situations in the past where I had to look up what
> seemed like an off-hand comment at the time that never made it into a
> 'proper' medium, especially when it was conversations with contributors
> with very limited availability (for example KK) or those who've moved on
> from the project. Logs are very useful for that.
>
> So, yes, in theory chat message wouldn't need archiving, in practice
> there's often information that will be useful later.
>
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> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Daniel Beck]

> On 11. Apr 2020, at 19:53, Radosław Antoniuk  wrote:
> 
> For me the availability of on-line archive of online chats, whether it be IRC 
> or Slack is not an argument for the tool, especially for the external 
> communication - for internal communication of the core contributors, it might 
> be different.


I've had quite a few situations in the past where I had to look up what seemed 
like an off-hand comment at the time that never made it into a 'proper' medium, 
especially when it was conversations with contributors with very limited 
availability (for example KK) or those who've moved on from the project. Logs 
are very useful for that.

So, yes, in theory chat message wouldn't need archiving, in practice there's 
often information that will be useful later.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Radosław Antoniuk]

On Sat, Apr 11, 2020 at 2:08 AM Daniel Beck  wrote:

>
> > On 11. Apr 2020, at 01:06, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
> >
> > TBH if we use Slack for runtime communications only, even losing history
> is not a big deal
>
> Strongly disagree. Even such conversations have a tendency to contain
> useful information, I'm not interested in having to keep a text editor open
> to save everything that'll be relevant in the future.



I think it's also important then to discuss the role of the on-line
communication tool.

For me, an on-line communication tool serves the purpose of
almost-real-time discussion on various subjects, agree consensus and/or
decide on stuff.
I do not think however it is the place to use as a documentation reference
- in that sense every discussion holds "useful information" and having said
that we should keep recordings of every Zoom meeting or anything else.
For that purpose, there are Google Docs and GitHub and Jenkins Mailing
lists that hold agreements, documentation, change proposals and any kind of
"useful documentation", in a versioned and organised manner.

For me the availability of on-line archive of online chats, whether it be
IRC or Slack is not an argument for the tool, especially for the external
communication - for internal communication of the core contributors, it
might be different.

Having said that, there is an Architecture standard for solving such stuff
(similar to JEPs) that could be used to drive such decisions:
https://adr.github.io/
https://iasaglobal.org/Public/TOPICS/Architecturally-Significant-Requirements.aspx

Maybe we could prepare a fact and quality driven comparison of possible
approaches to help agree whether a change is needed and valuable or not?


Happy and safe Easter to everyone!

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Jim Klimov]

On April 10, 2020 11:08:26 PM UTC, Marky Jackson  
wrote:
>I am +1 on slack. Also feel gitter is a horrible experience but will
>not use rocketchat, whatsapps, or Skype
>
>> On Apr 10, 2020, at 4:06 PM, Oleg Nenashev 
>wrote:
>> 
>> If we have archiving established, I do not mind trying out Slack. TBH
>if we use Slack for runtime communications only, even losing history is
>not a big deal. But I do not hold my breath about t, so history is
>needed IMHO.
>> 
>> My IMHO: Gitter is quite bad and not really maintained nowadays, IRC
>is a nightmare to use without a paid client.So indeed it leaves us with
>Slack or its open-source equivalents like Rocket chat or Mattermost.
>Slack is more convenient if we want to avoid hosting a service on
>Jenkins infra and if we want to make it easy for contributors to join.
>But no, I do not like Slack at all...wellp
>> 
>> I will abstain from voting on a specific chat platform and join the
>majority here unless Skype or WhatsApp are selected.
>> 
>> BR, Oleg
>> 
>> On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 1:53:58 PM UTC+2, Tim Jacomb wrote:
>> Also this for moderation on slack:
>> https://github.com/foqal/slack-moderator/blob/master/README.md
>
>> 
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 12:51, Tim Jacomb >
>wrote:
>> There’s this project for a public archive of slack:
>> https://github.com/dutchcoders/slackarchive
>
>> 
>> We would need the equivalent for IRC as well I think.
>> 
>> With IRC currently there’s no public log of any of the Jenkins
>channels. Each person needs to log it then self or pay / run a service
>that will do it for them afaik
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 10:43, Radosław Antoniuk <>> wrote:
>> Hey, I'm not critisizing! I just have my own preference and opinion
>:-)
>> You know, if IRC would be so great, Slack wouldn't exist.
>> Indeed, between Gitter and IRC probably I'd choose IRC. Between
>Rocket.Chat and IRC (although I never used it), for my own startup, I
>am choosing Slack or Rocket.Chat, because of integrations and UI/mobile
>friendliness etc. It always boils down to TCO and needed feature-set.
>> 
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FWIW, for IRC there is I believe logging at echelog.com (or is easy to arrange 
for that). 

As a PC client, I use Pidgin - it is multiplatform, not-paid and quite usable. 
Misses collecting the messages from my offline though (probably any native IRC 
would) - that is where echelog helps when I for example expect replies to 
questions posted at end of my workday. 

There are however concerns about a mobile client that would be easy to use and 
not eat all the battery and traffic allowance. During fosdem days I did 
subscribe to demo-time of this or that cloud-irc service and used it over 
browser; not sure if there is a full-time free equivalent. Full-time massive 
chats about code and work are logistically (copy-paste, kbd) easier on a laptop 
anyway.

My 2c, Jim
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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Daniel Beck]

> On 11. Apr 2020, at 01:06, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
> 
> TBH if we use Slack for runtime communications only, even losing history is 
> not a big deal

Strongly disagree. Even such conversations have a tendency to contain useful 
information, I'm not interested in having to keep a text editor open to save 
everything that'll be relevant in the future.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Marky Jackson]

I am +1 on slack. Also feel gitter is a horrible experience but will not use 
rocketchat, whatsapps, or Skype

> On Apr 10, 2020, at 4:06 PM, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
> 
> If we have archiving established, I do not mind trying out Slack. TBH if we 
> use Slack for runtime communications only, even losing history is not a big 
> deal. But I do not hold my breath about t, so history is needed IMHO.
> 
> My IMHO: Gitter is quite bad and not really maintained nowadays, IRC is a 
> nightmare to use without a paid client.So indeed it leaves us with Slack or 
> its open-source equivalents like Rocket chat or Mattermost. Slack is more 
> convenient if we want to avoid hosting a service on Jenkins infra and if we 
> want to make it easy for contributors to join. But no, I do not like Slack at 
> all...wellp
> 
> I will abstain from voting on a specific chat platform and join the majority 
> here unless Skype or WhatsApp are selected.
> 
> BR, Oleg
> 
> On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 1:53:58 PM UTC+2, Tim Jacomb wrote:
> Also this for moderation on slack:
> https://github.com/foqal/slack-moderator/blob/master/README.md 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 12:51, Tim Jacomb > wrote:
> There’s this project for a public archive of slack:
> https://github.com/dutchcoders/slackarchive 
> 
> 
> We would need the equivalent for IRC as well I think.
> 
> With IRC currently there’s no public log of any of the Jenkins channels. Each 
> person needs to log it then self or pay / run a service that will do it for 
> them afaik
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 10:43, Radosław Antoniuk > wrote:
> Hey, I'm not critisizing! I just have my own preference and opinion :-)
> You know, if IRC would be so great, Slack wouldn't exist.
> Indeed, between Gitter and IRC probably I'd choose IRC. Between Rocket.Chat 
> and IRC (although I never used it), for my own startup, I am choosing Slack 
> or Rocket.Chat, because of integrations and UI/mobile friendliness etc. It 
> always boils down to TCO and needed feature-set.
> 
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> .
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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Oleg Nenashev]

If we have archiving established, I do not mind trying out Slack. TBH if we 
use Slack for *runtime communications only*, even losing history is not a 
big deal. But I do not hold my breath about t, so history is needed IMHO.

My IMHO: Gitter is quite bad and not really maintained nowadays, IRC is a 
nightmare to use without a paid client.So indeed it leaves us with Slack or 
its open-source equivalents like Rocket chat or Mattermost. Slack is more 
convenient if we want to avoid hosting a service on Jenkins infra and if we 
want to make it easy for contributors to join. But no, I do not like Slack 
at all...wellp

I will abstain from voting on a specific chat platform and join the 
majority here unless Skype or WhatsApp are selected.

BR, Oleg

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 1:53:58 PM UTC+2, Tim Jacomb wrote:
>
> Also this for moderation on slack:
> https://github.com/foqal/slack-moderator/blob/master/README.md
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 12:51, Tim Jacomb > 
> wrote:
>
>> There’s this project for a public archive of slack: 
>> https://github.com/dutchcoders/slackarchive
>>
>> We would need the equivalent for IRC as well I think.
>>
>> With IRC currently there’s no public log of any of the Jenkins channels. 
>> Each person needs to log it then self or pay / run a service that will do 
>> it for them afaik
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 10:43, Radosław Antoniuk > > wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, I'm not critisizing! I just have my own preference and opinion :-)
>>> You know, if IRC would be so great, Slack wouldn't exist. 
>>> Indeed, between Gitter and IRC probably I'd choose IRC. Between 
>>> Rocket.Chat and IRC (although I never used it), for my own startup, I am 
>>> choosing Slack or Rocket.Chat, because of integrations and UI/mobile 
>>> friendliness etc. It always boils down to TCO and needed feature-set.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "Jenkins Developers" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to jenkin...@googlegroups.com .
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/CAPe2pWjVxaq6a5AxxcVEpnh2_xuRzRAKxZxa2pVf9daVKDhhkQ%40mail.gmail.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Tim Jacomb]

Also this for moderation on slack:
https://github.com/foqal/slack-moderator/blob/master/README.md


On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 12:51, Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> There’s this project for a public archive of slack:
> https://github.com/dutchcoders/slackarchive
>
> We would need the equivalent for IRC as well I think.
>
> With IRC currently there’s no public log of any of the Jenkins channels.
> Each person needs to log it then self or pay / run a service that will do
> it for them afaik
>
>
>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 10:43, Radosław Antoniuk 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey, I'm not critisizing! I just have my own preference and opinion :-)
>> You know, if IRC would be so great, Slack wouldn't exist.
>> Indeed, between Gitter and IRC probably I'd choose IRC. Between
>> Rocket.Chat and IRC (although I never used it), for my own startup, I am
>> choosing Slack or Rocket.Chat, because of integrations and UI/mobile
>> friendliness etc. It always boils down to TCO and needed feature-set.
>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Tim Jacomb]

There’s this project for a public archive of slack:
https://github.com/dutchcoders/slackarchive

We would need the equivalent for IRC as well I think.

With IRC currently there’s no public log of any of the Jenkins channels.
Each person needs to log it then self or pay / run a service that will do
it for them afaik



On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 at 10:43, Radosław Antoniuk 
wrote:

> Hey, I'm not critisizing! I just have my own preference and opinion :-)
> You know, if IRC would be so great, Slack wouldn't exist.
> Indeed, between Gitter and IRC probably I'd choose IRC. Between
> Rocket.Chat and IRC (although I never used it), for my own startup, I am
> choosing Slack or Rocket.Chat, because of integrations and UI/mobile
> friendliness etc. It always boils down to TCO and needed feature-set.
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Radosław Antoniuk]

Hey, I'm not critisizing! I just have my own preference and opinion :-)
You know, if IRC would be so great, Slack wouldn't exist.
Indeed, between Gitter and IRC probably I'd choose IRC. Between Rocket.Chat
and IRC (although I never used it), for my own startup, I am choosing Slack
or Rocket.Chat, because of integrations and UI/mobile friendliness etc. It
always boils down to TCO and needed feature-set.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Daniel Beck]

> On 9. Apr 2020, at 10:55, Radosław Antoniuk  wrote:
> 
> Gitter/Slack, JIRA Infra and dev mailing list should be enough and then if 
> #core on Gitter then #infra also on Gitter.

Didn't Gitter have problems maintaining the platform? Have those been resolved?

And Slack costs money unless we're prepared to lose history, and doesn't have 
useful moderation tools last time I checked.

TBH, I really don't understand the persistent IRC criticism. It's all in the 
client, which I at least have a choice of for IRC, as opposed to getting to 
choose between a shitty web UI and a shitty web UI in a standalone application.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Radosław Antoniuk]

>
> > I'd also love to have a channel for #infra.
>
> Multiple references to #jenkins-infra on
> https://jenkins.io/projects/infrastructure/
>
> Not intended that way, but still a great example what a major downside is
> when jumping on every chat software bandwagon, it makes it unnecessarily
> difficult to find things.


I fully agree Daniel.
I also think that IRC is so 30 years ago ;) - Gitter/Slack, JIRA Infra and
dev mailing list should be enough and then if #core on Gitter then #infra
also on Gitter.
Obviously, for Slack (or whatever) I meant a universal, autocreated channel
layout for all github/ or something along those lines.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Daniel Beck]

> On 9. Apr 2020, at 10:31, Radek Antoniuk  wrote:
> 
> I'd also love to have a channel for #infra.

Multiple references to #jenkins-infra on 
https://jenkins.io/projects/infrastructure/

Not intended that way, but still a great example what a major downside is when 
jumping on every chat software bandwagon, it makes it unnecessarily difficult 
to find things.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

['Gavin Mogan' via Jenkins Developers]

Infra is on IRC.freenode.net #jenkins-infra

I've been using matrix for a few months now, so will be writing up a
proposal real soon on centralizing on matrix cause right now everything is
so spread out

On Thu., Apr. 9, 2020, 1:31 a.m. Radek Antoniuk, 
wrote:

> Definitely +1 for core channel, definitely -1 for gitter and +1 for Slack
> or some other alternative like Rocket.Chat:
> I'd also love to have a channel for #infra.
>
> Something on that:
>
> https://medium.com/@gabriel_wilkes/why-tech-groups-can-get-away-with-using-slack-for-free-but-open-source-projects-and-businesses-of-96c427aaefbb
>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Radek Antoniuk]

Definitely +1 for core channel, definitely -1 for gitter and +1 for Slack 
or some other alternative like Rocket.Chat:
I'd also love to have a channel for #infra.

Something on that:
https://medium.com/@gabriel_wilkes/why-tech-groups-can-get-away-with-using-slack-for-free-but-open-source-projects-and-businesses-of-96c427aaefbb

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Matt Sicker]

I'm not a big fan of gitter myself as the client is fairly buggy and
limited compared to the alternatives. I'm even ok with IRC. We could
use some other chat as well like Slack as you suggested.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 2:15 PM Sladyn Nunes  wrote:
>
> I would like to share my opinion as a  new contributer to the Jenkins core 
> that it would be very helpful if there is a Jenkins core developers dedicated 
> channel maybe on slack or any other convenient medium similar to the 
> Jenkins-X project , because the jenkinsci/jenkins gitter channel is mostly 
> filled with user queries and it could be possible that the discussion may get 
> lost.
> Also +1 to the on demand sync-ups for the core maintainers, maybe non 
> maintainers can attend to learn more about the recent developments and learn 
> from the maintainers.
> Thanks and cheers.
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 8:06 PM Tim Jacomb  wrote:
>>
>> do you mean #jenkins on irc or gitter http://gitter.im/jenkinsci/jenkins ?
>>
>> gitter jenkins is are very heavy user channel
>>
>> irc jenkins isn't so bad but still lots of people after pipeline help.
>>
>> On the kubernetes slack there's a few, -users and -dev 
>> channels
>> Which helps separate out the noise in my opinion.
>>
>> But yeah open to both...
>>
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 at 14:50, Daniel Beck  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On 8. Apr 2020, at 14:17, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > creation of chats and other communication channels for Jenkins core 
>>> > maintainers which could help in the case of runtime communications: 
>>> > merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, etc. Right now 
>>> > we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind of 
>>> > discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes 
>>> > me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions
>>>
>>> I see this going in two ways:
>>>
>>> - Core development related (and will probably pretty open)
>>> - Core maintenance related (and can easily be limited to committers and the 
>>> triage team)
>>>
>>> It seems to me that there are already plenty of venues to discuss the 
>>> former, and it's typically not time sensitive. OTOH, the latter needs (or 
>>> can benefit from) closer coordination, especially towards end of the week, 
>>> or before LTS schedule related dates.
>>>
>>> I prefer we don't create yet another almost-general-purpose chat (what 
>>> wrong with #jenkins and equivalents for general questions about core?), so 
>>> for me, the latter seems more useful. A larger scope would also increase 
>>> the volume of messages, which makes it less viable to have notifications 
>>> enabled.
>>>
>>> That said, I'm open to either (or both…), if the chosen approach doesn't 
>>> work we can always change it. Given the relatively small group of people 
>>> involved, it shouldn't be too difficult to change direction.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to jenkinsci-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/925CE240-87BD-44B3-8D15-535FDFE4F328%40beckweb.net.
>>
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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Sladyn Nunes]

I would like to share my opinion as a  new contributer to the Jenkins core
that it would be very helpful if there is a Jenkins core developers
dedicated channel maybe on slack or any other convenient medium similar to
the Jenkins-X project , because the jenkinsci/jenkins gitter channel is
mostly filled with user queries and it could be possible that the
discussion may get lost.
Also +1 to the on demand sync-ups for the core maintainers, maybe non
maintainers can attend to learn more about the recent developments and
learn from the maintainers.
Thanks and cheers.

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, 8:06 PM Tim Jacomb  wrote:

> do you mean #jenkins on irc or gitter http://gitter.im/jenkinsci/jenkins ?
>
> gitter jenkins is are very heavy user channel
>
> irc jenkins isn't so bad but still lots of people after pipeline help.
>
> On the kubernetes slack there's a few, -users and -dev
> channels
> Which helps separate out the noise in my opinion.
>
> But yeah open to both...
>
> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 at 14:50, Daniel Beck  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On 8. Apr 2020, at 14:17, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
>> >
>> > creation of chats and other communication channels for Jenkins core
>> maintainers which could help in the case of runtime communications:
>> merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, etc. Right now
>> we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind of discussions,
>> but a number of private messages between maintainers makes me tink that we
>> might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions
>>
>> I see this going in two ways:
>>
>> - Core development related (and will probably pretty open)
>> - Core maintenance related (and can easily be limited to committers and
>> the triage team)
>>
>> It seems to me that there are already plenty of venues to discuss the
>> former, and it's typically not time sensitive. OTOH, the latter needs (or
>> can benefit from) closer coordination, especially towards end of the week,
>> or before LTS schedule related dates.
>>
>> I prefer we don't create yet another almost-general-purpose chat (what
>> wrong with #jenkins and equivalents for general questions about core?), so
>> for me, the latter seems more useful. A larger scope would also increase
>> the volume of messages, which makes it less viable to have notifications
>> enabled.
>>
>> That said, I'm open to either (or both…), if the chosen approach doesn't
>> work we can always change it. Given the relatively small group of people
>> involved, it shouldn't be too difficult to change direction.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Jenkins Developers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to jenkinsci-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/925CE240-87BD-44B3-8D15-535FDFE4F328%40beckweb.net
>> .
>>
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> 
> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Tim Jacomb]

do you mean #jenkins on irc or gitter http://gitter.im/jenkinsci/jenkins ?

gitter jenkins is are very heavy user channel

irc jenkins isn't so bad but still lots of people after pipeline help.

On the kubernetes slack there's a few, -users and -dev
channels
Which helps separate out the noise in my opinion.

But yeah open to both...

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 at 14:50, Daniel Beck  wrote:

>
>
> > On 8. Apr 2020, at 14:17, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
> >
> > creation of chats and other communication channels for Jenkins core
> maintainers which could help in the case of runtime communications:
> merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, etc. Right now
> we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind of discussions,
> but a number of private messages between maintainers makes me tink that we
> might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions
>
> I see this going in two ways:
>
> - Core development related (and will probably pretty open)
> - Core maintenance related (and can easily be limited to committers and
> the triage team)
>
> It seems to me that there are already plenty of venues to discuss the
> former, and it's typically not time sensitive. OTOH, the latter needs (or
> can benefit from) closer coordination, especially towards end of the week,
> or before LTS schedule related dates.
>
> I prefer we don't create yet another almost-general-purpose chat (what
> wrong with #jenkins and equivalents for general questions about core?), so
> for me, the latter seems more useful. A larger scope would also increase
> the volume of messages, which makes it less viable to have notifications
> enabled.
>
> That said, I'm open to either (or both…), if the chosen approach doesn't
> work we can always change it. Given the relatively small group of people
> involved, it shouldn't be too difficult to change direction.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Jenkins Developers" group.
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> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/925CE240-87BD-44B3-8D15-535FDFE4F328%40beckweb.net
> .
>

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Daniel Beck]

> On 8. Apr 2020, at 14:17, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:
> 
> creation of chats and other communication channels for Jenkins core 
> maintainers which could help in the case of runtime communications: 
> merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, etc. Right now we 
> mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind of discussions, but 
> a number of private messages between maintainers makes me tink that we might 
> be lacking a chat for runtime discussions

I see this going in two ways:

- Core development related (and will probably pretty open)
- Core maintenance related (and can easily be limited to committers and the 
triage team)

It seems to me that there are already plenty of venues to discuss the former, 
and it's typically not time sensitive. OTOH, the latter needs (or can benefit 
from) closer coordination, especially towards end of the week, or before LTS 
schedule related dates.

I prefer we don't create yet another almost-general-purpose chat (what wrong 
with #jenkins and equivalents for general questions about core?), so for me, 
the latter seems more useful. A larger scope would also increase the volume of 
messages, which makes it less viable to have notifications enabled.

That said, I'm open to either (or both…), if the chosen approach doesn't work 
we can always change it. Given the relatively small group of people involved, 
it shouldn't be too difficult to change direction.

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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Marky Jackson]

+1 from me on a core-dev chat room. I do think we will have to make sure it is 
moderated in some fashion to prevent non-core-dev related questioning. I also 
think if this room is created there should be some type of banner stating that 
this channel expects that some basic debugging was done prior. This will 
prevent it from becoming a help-desk channel of sort.


> On Apr 8, 2020, at 6:30 AM, Tim Jacomb  wrote:
> 
> I think a core-dev chat room would be useful,
> 
> I don’t think it needs limiting to just be core-developers though
> 
> Anything related to development on the core would be welcomed there
> 
> Thanks
> Tim
> 
> On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 at 13:17, Oleg Nenashev  > wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team 
> 
>  thread we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication 
> channels for Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime 
> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, 
> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind of 
> discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes me 
> tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we could 
> setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the 
> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
> 
> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active 
> contributors:
> Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in Gitter
> Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for core 
> maintainers? 
> Thanks for your time,
> Oleg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/jenkinsci-dev/7b23e02b-ef9d-4f15-b6d7-b45eeb80d9a4%40googlegroups.com
>  
> .
> 
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>  
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Re: Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Tim Jacomb]

I think a core-dev chat room would be useful,

I don’t think it needs limiting to just be core-developers though

Anything related to development on the core would be welcomed there

Thanks
Tim

On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 at 13:17, Oleg Nenashev  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team
> 
>  thread
> we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels for
> Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime
> communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers,
> etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind
> of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes
> me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we
> could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the
> screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.
>
> I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active
> contributors:
>
>- Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in
>Gitter
>- Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for core
>maintainers?
>
> Thanks for your time,
> Oleg
>
>
>
>
>
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> 
> .
>

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Discussion: Jenkins Core Maintainer/Developer discussion channels

[Oleg Nenashev]

Hi all,

In the Proposal: Expanding the Jenkins Core maintainers team 
 
thread 
we briefly discussed creation of chats and other communication channels for 
Jenkins core maintainers which could help in the case of runtime 
communications: merge/changelog discussions, sync-ups between maintainers, 
etc. Right now we mostly use pull requests and mailing lists for such kind 
of discussions, but a number of private messages between maintainers makes 
me tink that we might be lacking a chat for runtime discussions. Also, we 
could setup a regular call to discuss maintenance topics, do reviews in the 
screenshare mode and to do knowledge transfers about the codebase.

I would appreciate feedback from Jenkins core maintainers and active 
contributors:

   - Would a dedicated chat help us? E.g. jenkinsci/core-developers in 
   Gitter
   - Would it make sense to have a regular or an on-demand call for core 
   maintainers? 

Thanks for your time,
Oleg





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