Re: Jetspeed2 planning
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Serge Huber wrote: | | I'll second that, thanks David and Scott for taking the time to answer our | frustrations over and over :) I've been lurking a bit since I'm very busy | at work with an upcoming product release, but I see the same question | coming over and over about when will Pluto finally be delivered and I'm | still surprised nobody has landed a replacement by now :) If somebody did | maybe it would change the view of the people in the PMC that are reluctant | to open source it ? I don't believe it's the PMC that's having problems open sourcing it. If PMC is the problem, then I would instead think that some people in PMC would rather like to decline the offer.. Read on..: | | But before I go down that road again, I must say if the code for Pluto was | also entirely developed by IBM that in a way we should be thankful that | they are willing to contribute it for free ! After all this code didn't | write itself, and just like we are thankful to all the contributors to the | Apache Foundation I think we will have to thank IBM for their contributions | as soon as they finally land it :) There are several arguments against accepting stash from here we contribute it for free, you should be thankful-organizations. Apache (Jakarta) was apparently very sad that they ever accepted the Tomcat code (RI for Servlets) from Sun. It wasn't of good quality. Apache is very wary of accepting any project - it should have a community and blah blah and whatnot. Why should it suddenly become so extremely thankful for -IBM- donating some piece of software?! One -could- imagine that they were just going for the feather, instead of sincerly aiming for a true open source development process and community. People at Apache apparently feel that open source code should be developed in an open source fashion. The opposite was once called something like blackboxware, and is described in this post: http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html This link is actually found from the PlutoProposal wiki page: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?PlutoProposal .. more specifically, the Talk Page : http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TalkPlutoProposal | | As for the PMC members and the process, I understand a small group of | volunteers must be able to decide for the masses on some issues. But I'm | sure that corporate issues can get in the way of the committee but hey | that's just how the world is :) But this s... is really dragging along. There are just too much corporate legacy stuff here. That you can clearly observe from the spec (JSR 168) too; it is clearly something like the least common denominator of all the portal implementations that the vendors that developed this specification had when they entered it, and is tailored so that everyone of them easily can implement it - logically enough. Then, all the vendors inside that club have delayed and halted the specification for a REALLY long time, so that -they- could be compliant to the still-not-released specification -before- the spec is out (check out e.g. Sun and IBM's beta portal products: HOW COME they already are JSR 168 compliant, one might start to wonder).. This -could- be the reason why Pluto is being halted too, you know. Then the spec could be out and everything fine, and the commercial entities would get a first stake at the market. If pluto gets out now (or earlier), I and several others would try to make our portal products compliant as fast as possible, using the OS Pluto code. This would be bad for business for IBM and the others that have spent so much time (and hence money) on this specification, and on their already developed implementations. Just speculations.. ranting away.. Still looking forward to the RI! Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jetspeed2 planning
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Endre Stølsvik wrote: | Apache is very wary of accepting any project - it should have a community | and blah blah and whatnot. Why should it suddenly become so extremely | thankful for -IBM- donating some piece of software?! One -could- | imagine that they were just going for the feather, instead of sincerly | aiming for a true open source development process and community. And btw, you have The Incubator (read it with the low film-preview voice like Tha' Terminator).. This is from a slightly heated discussion on general incubator: http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40incubator.apache.org/msg01701.html new code coming in to the asf comes through the incubator. period. http://www.mail-archive.com/general%40incubator.apache.org/msg01693.html and i believe the board will take a very, very dim view of any tlp that tries to do an end-run around this by bringing in an outside group of people and then subsequently importing their codebase. Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jetspeed2 planning
I guess reality just happened to us :) Pluto is now open source :) I do agree to a lot of what you said, and I do work for a commercial company that has it's own agenda, and that doesn't always do the right thing. But I think you are being a little hard on IBM, this is just my opinion. They have been involved in the project (Jetspeed) for quite a while and despite being a big bad commercial entity I think that in regards to others they are more transparent than others. Anyway I am sure a lot of internal politics slowed down the JSR-168. It was a controversial JSR to start with, and probably a good test of how not to do things in the future. I hope the lessons have been learned. Regards, Serge Huber. At 09:55 30.09.2003 +0200, you wrote: On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Serge Huber wrote: | | I'll second that, thanks David and Scott for taking the time to answer our | frustrations over and over :) I've been lurking a bit since I'm very busy | at work with an upcoming product release, but I see the same question | coming over and over about when will Pluto finally be delivered and I'm | still surprised nobody has landed a replacement by now :) If somebody did | maybe it would change the view of the people in the PMC that are reluctant | to open source it ? I don't believe it's the PMC that's having problems open sourcing it. If PMC is the problem, then I would instead think that some people in PMC would rather like to decline the offer.. Read on..: | | But before I go down that road again, I must say if the code for Pluto was | also entirely developed by IBM that in a way we should be thankful that | they are willing to contribute it for free ! After all this code didn't | write itself, and just like we are thankful to all the contributors to the | Apache Foundation I think we will have to thank IBM for their contributions | as soon as they finally land it :) There are several arguments against accepting stash from here we contribute it for free, you should be thankful-organizations. Apache (Jakarta) was apparently very sad that they ever accepted the Tomcat code (RI for Servlets) from Sun. It wasn't of good quality. Apache is very wary of accepting any project - it should have a community and blah blah and whatnot. Why should it suddenly become so extremely thankful for -IBM- donating some piece of software?! One -could- imagine that they were just going for the feather, instead of sincerly aiming for a true open source development process and community. People at Apache apparently feel that open source code should be developed in an open source fashion. The opposite was once called something like blackboxware, and is described in this post: http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html This link is actually found from the PlutoProposal wiki page: http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?PlutoProposal .. more specifically, the Talk Page : http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TalkPlutoProposal | | As for the PMC members and the process, I understand a small group of | volunteers must be able to decide for the masses on some issues. But I'm | sure that corporate issues can get in the way of the committee but hey | that's just how the world is :) But this s... is really dragging along. There are just too much corporate legacy stuff here. That you can clearly observe from the spec (JSR 168) too; it is clearly something like the least common denominator of all the portal implementations that the vendors that developed this specification had when they entered it, and is tailored so that everyone of them easily can implement it - logically enough. Then, all the vendors inside that club have delayed and halted the specification for a REALLY long time, so that -they- could be compliant to the still-not-released specification -before- the spec is out (check out e.g. Sun and IBM's beta portal products: HOW COME they already are JSR 168 compliant, one might start to wonder).. This -could- be the reason why Pluto is being halted too, you know. Then the spec could be out and everything fine, and the commercial entities would get a first stake at the market. If pluto gets out now (or earlier), I and several others would try to make our portal products compliant as fast as possible, using the OS Pluto code. This would be bad for business for IBM and the others that have spent so much time (and hence money) on this specification, and on their already developed implementations. Just speculations.. ranting away.. Still looking forward to the RI! Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jetspeed2 planning
David and Scott: Thanks for the informative answers! .. And I didn't know that the PMC meeting minutes were available like this - but the last one is from 2002 January 30?? Anyways, looking forward to JS2 and pluto! Thanks Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jetspeed2 planning
I'll second that, thanks David and Scott for taking the time to answer our frustrations over and over :) I've been lurking a bit since I'm very busy at work with an upcoming product release, but I see the same question coming over and over about when will Pluto finally be delivered and I'm still surprised nobody has landed a replacement by now :) If somebody did maybe it would change the view of the people in the PMC that are reluctant to open source it ? But before I go down that road again, I must say if the code for Pluto was also entirely developed by IBM that in a way we should be thankful that they are willing to contribute it for free ! After all this code didn't write itself, and just like we are thankful to all the contributors to the Apache Foundation I think we will have to thank IBM for their contributions as soon as they finally land it :) As for the PMC members and the process, I understand a small group of volunteers must be able to decide for the masses on some issues. But I'm sure that corporate issues can get in the way of the committee but hey that's just how the world is :) Regards, Serge Huber. At 10:08 AM 9/29/2003 +0200, you wrote: David and Scott: Thanks for the informative answers! .. And I didn't know that the PMC meeting minutes were available like this - but the last one is from 2002 January 30?? Anyways, looking forward to JS2 and pluto! Thanks Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -- --- -=[ shuber2 at jahia dot com ]= --- -- - www.jahia.org : A collaborative source CMS and Portal Server - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jetspeed2 planning
On Friday, September 26, 2003, at 12:57 AM, Endre Stølsvik wrote: On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Weaver, Scott wrote: | From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have | said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that | seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find | interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at | portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. -Where- are these things going on? Hi Endre, Hope you are doing well :-) The Jakarta PMC http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html I am a member. The PMC meeting minutes are made public, but I haven't seen where the PMC mailing list discussions are made public That would be a good subject to discuss on the Jakarta General list http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#General The Pluto project charter can be found here: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ msg07781.html How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Thats a good question. IMO Pluto should have been accepted into Jakarta's incubator weeks ago. However because one member of the PMC felt strongly about keeping Pluto out of Jakarta, the process was slowed down to a halt. Im learning that there are politics in open source and that the open source process can be abused just like any other open process. The important thing is that it is a democratic process, by elected PMC voting members representing their Jakarta sub-projects, and we did achieve over 3/4 +1 votes to accept Pluto into Jakarta incubation. Pluto is now in Sam Ruby's hands to create the CVS and mailing lists. I imagine he will have that completed any day now. -- David Sean Taylor Bluesunrise Software [EMAIL PROTECTED] +01 707 773-4646 +01 707 529 9194 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Jetspeed2 planning
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Weaver, Scott wrote: | From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have | said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that | seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find | interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at | portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. -Where- are these things going on? How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jetspeed2 planning
True but... In defense of these fellows who are dedicating their time to J2... I have to say - first realize that until the JSR is finalized there are legal implications; in particular the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to consider. I'd suggest anyone that really wanted earliest access could have joined the JCP as an individual and self-nominated to themselves to the JSR-168. The Pluto code base is under IBM's determination as to who can have access as well as I suppose the JSR member organizations. So we can not beat-up on the Jetspeed team for this since they have no control over the issue. I'm not super familiar with the Apache PMO process, however I have been able to find various information on the proposal in the J2 CVS and on the main apache site - proposals, etc. That said - I agree with the certain overtones of closed'ness. Let's say that if I donated enormous resources to Apache I might try to throw my weight around a bit. I can't guess what the behind the scenes issues are - but if you look at the voting minutes for the JCP there are political / legal considerations it seems. The SCO/Linux pharse I'm sure also has every company that contributes to open initiatives on their toes - double-checking their i's and crossing their t's. So I'd rather /thank/ those working the Pluto proposal and project, and the jetspeed 2 project - I'm sure they are frustrated in not being able to share what they got yet as well. It seems every week or so someone expresses these same frustrations (which I share), but I don't see anything constructive by doing that. -Original Message- From: Endre Stolsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:57 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: Re: Jetspeed2 planning On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Weaver, Scott wrote: | From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have | said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that | seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find | interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at | portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. -Where- are these things going on? How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jetspeed2 planning
-Where- are these things going on? On the Jakarta members (PMC) list which is a closed mailing list, which I am not a part. I come by my information through first hand sources, though. This is where the voting in of new projects happens and where we have encountered trouble getting Pluto into Jakarta. How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Personally, I think it sucks! But were people are involved, personal feelings and politics have a way screwing things up, hence the enormous delay on getting Pluto into Jakarta. Please don't shoot the messenger, I am just as frustrated as you if not more so. Regards, *===* * Scott T Weaver * * Jakarta Jetspeed Portal Project * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *===* -Original Message- From: Endre Stølsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:57 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: Re: Jetspeed2 planning On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Weaver, Scott wrote: | From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have | said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that | seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find | interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at | portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. -Where- are these things going on? How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jetspeed2 planning
-Original Message- From: Tim Reilly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 5:55 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: RE: Jetspeed2 planning True but... In defense of these fellows who are dedicating their time to J2... I have to say - first realize that until the JSR is finalized there are legal implications; in particular the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to consider. NDA was the absolute worst thing in the world; it is the consummate OSS killer! I'd suggest anyone that really wanted earliest access could have joined the JCP as an individual and self-nominated to themselves to the JSR-168. The Pluto code base is under IBM's determination as to who can have access as well as I suppose the JSR member organizations. So we can not beat-up on the Jetspeed team for this since they have no control over the issue. Someone (an IBM employeed) on the Jakarta PMC is now taking care of getting the correct licenses and CLAs in order for Pluto. I'm not super familiar with the Apache PMO process, however I have been able to find various information on the proposal in the J2 CVS and on the main apache site - proposals, etc. That said - I agree with the certain overtones of closed'ness. Let's say that if I donated enormous resources to Apache I might try to throw my weight around a bit. I can't guess what the behind the scenes issues are - but if you look at the voting minutes for the JCP there are political / legal considerations it seems. The SCO/Linux pharse I'm sure also has every company that contributes to open initiatives on their toes - double- checking their i's and crossing their t's. So I'd rather /thank/ those working the Pluto proposal and project, and the jetspeed 2 project - I'm sure they are frustrated in not being able to share what they got yet as well. David and I are probably more frustrated than anyone else. We have had many talks about how disgusted and fed up with this process we have become. I agree 100% that the closed-ness is shady and is against the ideals of OSS. What I think people on the list need to understand is that we are trying our damnedest to make things available to the community. However, we can only do so much; the rest is out of our hands. It seems every week or so someone expresses these same frustrations (which I share), but I don't see anything constructive by doing that. -Original Message- From: Endre Stolsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:57 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: Re: Jetspeed2 planning On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Weaver, Scott wrote: | From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have | said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that | seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find | interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at | portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. -Where- are these things going on? How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *===* * Scott T Weaver* * Jakarta Jetspeed Portal Project * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *===*
RE: Jetspeed2 planning
Like most good conversation, this discussion raised more questions that it answers. I will ask mine just in case anyone knows the answer. 1) Do we have any sense or committment to the extent of upwards compatibility of applications written for Jetspeed 1? 2) Will Jetspeed 2 be issued with the same licensing as the rest of the Apache code? 3) Is there a www site for Jetspeed2? 4) How will the transition from Jetspeed 1 to 2 be handled by the Jetspeed contributing members. Will there be a separate support site? How long will Jetspeed 1 get active support? 5) What documents are currently available describing Jetspeed 2? Pluto? I am having enough trouble and excitement getting Jatspeed 1B4 to do what I want, so my questions are a bit of background for long-term planning. I will not be overly offended if you want to close off this discussion until a few months before Jetspeed 2 is due for release. Ron -Original Message- From: Weaver, Scott [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 9:37 AM To: 'Jetspeed Users List' Subject: RE: Jetspeed2 planning -Original Message- From: Tim Reilly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 5:55 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: RE: Jetspeed2 planning True but... In defense of these fellows who are dedicating their time to J2... I have to say - first realize that until the JSR is finalized there are legal implications; in particular the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) to consider. NDA was the absolute worst thing in the world; it is the consummate OSS killer! I'd suggest anyone that really wanted earliest access could have joined the JCP as an individual and self-nominated to themselves to the JSR-168. The Pluto code base is under IBM's determination as to who can have access as well as I suppose the JSR member organizations. So we can not beat-up on the Jetspeed team for this since they have no control over the issue. Someone (an IBM employeed) on the Jakarta PMC is now taking care of getting the correct licenses and CLAs in order for Pluto. I'm not super familiar with the Apache PMO process, however I have been able to find various information on the proposal in the J2 CVS and on the main apache site - proposals, etc. That said - I agree with the certain overtones of closed'ness. Let's say that if I donated enormous resources to Apache I might try to throw my weight around a bit. I can't guess what the behind the scenes issues are - but if you look at the voting minutes for the JCP there are political / legal considerations it seems. The SCO/Linux pharse I'm sure also has every company that contributes to open initiatives on their toes - double- checking their i's and crossing their t's. So I'd rather /thank/ those working the Pluto proposal and project, and the jetspeed 2 project - I'm sure they are frustrated in not being able to share what they got yet as well. David and I are probably more frustrated than anyone else. We have had many talks about how disgusted and fed up with this process we have become. I agree 100% that the closed-ness is shady and is against the ideals of OSS. What I think people on the list need to understand is that we are trying our damnedest to make things available to the community. However, we can only do so much; the rest is out of our hands. It seems every week or so someone expresses these same frustrations (which I share), but I don't see anything constructive by doing that. -Original Message- From: Endre Stolsvik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:57 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: Re: Jetspeed2 planning On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, Weaver, Scott wrote: | From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have | said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that | seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find | interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at | portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. -Where- are these things going on? How much behind the scenes is to be expected from an -OPEN SOURCE- organization like Apache? Endre. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *===* * Scott T Weaver* * Jakarta Jetspeed Portal Project * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *===* - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Jetspeed2 planning
Hi community, when jetspeed2 will be available for testing for the community? Is there any plan for pluto.jar? Any feedback will be very appreciated. Regards, Dariush. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Jetspeed2 planning
From what I have heard, it's very close now. I know, I know I have said that before, but I have seen correspondence in Apache lately that seem to point things actually being finalized. What you might also find interesting is that Pluto and Jetspeed may have a new home at portals.apache.org, nothing is set in stone on that though. Regards, *===* * Scott T Weaver * * Jakarta Jetspeed Portal Project * * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * *===* -Original Message- From: Dariush Behboudi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2003 5:29 AM To: Jetspeed Users List Subject: Jetspeed2 planning Hi community, when jetspeed2 will be available for testing for the community? Is there any plan for pluto.jar? Any feedback will be very appreciated. Regards, Dariush. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
