Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
2011/10/15 Dirk Stöcker : > The sidemenus have mainly the task to display information. Interaction is > only rarely required. Well, there is the "properties"-Menu, which I click all the time to add a tag (there is some shortcut-problem which makes the "add-tag"-shortcut somehow not working in my setting and I got used to click on "add tag" so I don't miss it sufficiently to bother applying changes). I am sure new users will feel even more confused then the experienced ones. Apparently this feature is perceived quite useful for some setups (on screens with few rows), but IMHO the suggested change (opt-in instead of opt-out) would satisfy both parties and keep JOSM simpler for beginners (dynamic UIs are more complex, and you have to move the mouse a lot around to discover what you are after). Cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On 16-10-2011 13:53, Dirk Stöcker wrote: Actually I don't think thats a good idea. While this may be good for experienced users, a novice probably needs ages to find such a hidden functionality. Like the selection and search history! People are still amazed when I tell them that it exists and where they can find it. BTW: That's #4869 -- Lennard ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On Sun, 16 Oct 2011, Paul Hartmann wrote: Still, there is a serious flaw in the design: The visible space shrinks, as soon as you hover above the dialogue. This is very irritating when you don't intend to use the buttons, but try to interact with the list entries directly. Yes. A solution to this would be to create the buttons below the entry when possible. But this has other issues as well. Or to temporary enlarge the choosen box, so that the contents stays at same position. Both solutions are much more complex to program and probably not really an improvement. But I'm sure we'll find ways to improve this new design and smooth the sharp edges. One possible solution would be to get rid of the buttons completely. E.g. tag editing could be like in the relation editor (and Potlatch 2's advanced tagging mode). Actually I don't think thats a good idea. While this may be good for experienced users, a novice probably needs ages to find such a hidden functionality. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On 10/15/2011 05:50 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: > On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Ilya Zverev wrote: > >> On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:11:42 +0300, Komяpa wrote: >>> I got used to dynamic buttons almost immediately. Just clicked where >>> they usually were, and they appeared right under mouse cursor. >> >> The key word being "usually were". New users will feel a big WTF not >> seeing any buttons in those panels, and they won't get used to it >> (because why should they? there's simple and obvious potlatch). I too >> have 13whatever by 768 screen, and 4-5 panels enabled - and there's >> enough space. Even if it weren't, as I said, the panels are there not >> to watch, but to edit, and in either case one has to scroll the list. >> But now it is not as obvious: you see the line, but you can't get to >> it. You need a button, but you don't see it. The option undoubtely is >> useful for some, but it is not good UI decision, so I propose to turn >> it off by default, not remove. > > Wow, the same discussion as for virtual nodes. As I was unsure whether > this should be default or now it was not default for a longer time in > which I had a lot of people testing this. None of them really > complained, but they like the additional freedom of the display in the > right side. The right hand side now looks more clearly arranged and uncluttered - this is one positive thing I can say about these dynamic buttons. Still, there is a serious flaw in the design: The visible space shrinks, as soon as you hover above the dialogue. This is very irritating when you don't intend to use the buttons, but try to interact with the list entries directly. E.g. say, there are three layers displayed in the layer dialogue and the height is adjusted such that all three entries just fit in the list. Now you like to hide the 3rd layer and attempt to click on the eye symbol of that layer. But as soon as the mouse cursor reaches the icon, it gets covered by the button row. For the properties dialogue, you don't need the buttons at all. Alt-B (now Alt-A) adds a new tag, double click edits it and click del-key removes a tag. So in this case, the button row just gets in the way. One possible solution would be to get rid of the buttons completely. E.g. tag editing could be like in the relation editor (and Potlatch 2's advanced tagging mode). Paul PS: For reference, here is the corresponding trac ticket: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6731 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
I agree that running out of vertical space is a problem, but the dynamic button approach isn't quite ready IMO. The main problem is when you need to use the last item in a sidemenu. Say I want to edit the last tag. To do this I need to move the mouse over sidemenu. The buttons appear, obscuring the item I was aiming for, forcing me to move the mouse up bit and scroll down before I finally get to the tag. This is beyond annoying :) Besides this (fatal IMO) flaw I think the approach works well. I'm not sure how it can be fixed properly though. Scrolling the list down automatically when the mouse enters in the lower region isn't really a solution. Showing the buttons in front of the sidemenu header is problematic too. I think the best solution for me would be: - Make per item functionality available in context menus (right-click) - Add a per-dialog option to hide/show/(dynamic) the buttons Personally, I feel the headers waste space and could be removed too, but this is obviously extreme. Allocating space dynamically could help. (eg. a selected way has many tags -> shrink selection sidemenu) Best regards Ole Jørgen Brønner (olejorgenb) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: I got used to dynamic buttons almost immediately. Just clicked where they usually were, and they appeared right under mouse cursor. Dynamic buttons help a lot on small (mine is 1366x768 and it's small for josm) screens. But it might be worth making them opt-in, because newbies won't find them as easy as old josm users. Do we all agree that the dynamic buttons are detrimental if you have a very large screen, and only useful as a space saving measure for small screens - or are there people who have large enough screens and still like the dynamic buttons? Actually not. After a short training phase where the buttons are a bit irritating (that was to be expected, as actually it is a rather uncommon GUI design, although f.e. GoogleMaps API uses the same) you get used to it very fast. And on larger screens you tend to leave more displays open, which you have been closing before to save space. So the "save space" effect is reduced again due to "more information". Maybe we could have a "JOSM netbook edition" and a "JOSM big screen" ;) of course each item is configurable individually but perhaps it would be good if users could choose between two sets of defaults when they first install...? We will see the reaction to this over the next releases and can adapt the system whenever needed. A "edition" preconfiguration sounds useful, but is more like a long-term job I think. But it very likely will come in the future. For most issues probably a possibility to turn dynamic buttons off for individual sections would help a lot (additional symbol in the menu title, so only for experts), as probably only properties and layer list are most annoying. I plan to do so for some time, but had not yet the time. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Pieren wrote: I wrote a diary because I don't think it has to go to Trac. UI is always a question of personnal taste. Now JOSM looks like a Flash game. The only missing feature is to get 50 points each time you click fast enough on appearing objects or new cursor effect. All these things make finally a strange impression of not very serious interface. Fine, as soon as I can disable them. But I understand. I'm a dev myself and when you work on a mature projects, it is always difficult to find the good moment to say 'no'. The sidemenus have mainly the task to display information. Interaction is only rarely required. The current solution helps to fix the issue that we need more space in the side menus. The other solution would be to ban buttons from these menus completely and move them into popups or menu. I believe that would produce much more reaction than the current method, which may not be standard UI design today, but nevertheless is very intuitive nonetheless. JOSM is used more and more in areas which have nothing to do with OSM alltogether. It is used simply as an easy to use spatial editor. So contrary to what you write above the UI of JOSM can't be that bad as you say. JOSM has a lot of features and it is always hard to get lots of stuff into a small and simple interface. And maybe not each decission we do is the right one finally and needs to be adapted or reverted. But I'm careful when introducing new concepts and till now the results verify the way I'm going. So while improvements in the new dynamic buttons may come (e.g. a possibility to turn it off for individual sections) I currently don't so a reason to turn it off again. An observation I made in the past: Usually people telling me the "novice users wont accept it" want to preserve their own accustomed way of work only. Novice users most of the time have been a lot happier to accept UI changes than the old users. And a note to previous poster: The "there is always Potlatch around" is so old and actually I tend to ignore people using it. JOSM cannot and will not satisfy everyone. JOSM needs a bit of larning to use it (although we reduced the minimum required amount over the last years). Whoever finds Potlatch better should use it instead. I don't care. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
Hi, On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:11:42 +0300 Komяpa wrote: > I got used to dynamic buttons almost immediately. Just clicked where > they usually were, and they appeared right under mouse cursor. > > Dynamic buttons help a lot on small (mine is 1366x768 and it's small > for josm) screens. But it might be worth making them opt-in, because > newbies won't find them as easy as old josm users. Do we all agree that the dynamic buttons are detrimental if you have a very large screen, and only useful as a space saving measure for small screens - or are there people who have large enough screens and still like the dynamic buttons? Maybe we could have a "JOSM netbook edition" and a "JOSM big screen" ;) of course each item is configurable individually but perhaps it would be good if users could choose between two sets of defaults when they first install...? Bye Frederik ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
2011/10/15 Dirk Stöcker : I wrote a diary because I don't think it has to go to Trac. UI is always a question of personnal taste. Now JOSM looks like a Flash game. The only missing feature is to get 50 points each time you click fast enough on appearing objects or new cursor effect. All these things make finally a strange impression of not very serious interface. Fine, as soon as I can disable them. But I understand. I'm a dev myself and when you work on a mature projects, it is always difficult to find the good moment to say 'no'. Pieren ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011, Ilya Zverev wrote: On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:11:42 +0300, Komяpa wrote: I got used to dynamic buttons almost immediately. Just clicked where they usually were, and they appeared right under mouse cursor. The key word being "usually were". New users will feel a big WTF not seeing any buttons in those panels, and they won't get used to it (because why should they? there's simple and obvious potlatch). I too have 13whatever by 768 screen, and 4-5 panels enabled - and there's enough space. Even if it weren't, as I said, the panels are there not to watch, but to edit, and in either case one has to scroll the list. But now it is not as obvious: you see the line, but you can't get to it. You need a button, but you don't see it. The option undoubtely is useful for some, but it is not good UI decision, so I propose to turn it off by default, not remove. Wow, the same discussion as for virtual nodes. As I was unsure whether this should be default or now it was not default for a longer time in which I had a lot of people testing this. None of them really complained, but they like the additional freedom of the display in the right side. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:11:42 +0300, Komяpa wrote: I got used to dynamic buttons almost immediately. Just clicked where they usually were, and they appeared right under mouse cursor. The key word being "usually were". New users will feel a big WTF not seeing any buttons in those panels, and they won't get used to it (because why should they? there's simple and obvious potlatch). I too have 13whatever by 768 screen, and 4-5 panels enabled - and there's enough space. Even if it weren't, as I said, the panels are there not to watch, but to edit, and in either case one has to scroll the list. But now it is not as obvious: you see the line, but you can't get to it. You need a button, but you don't see it. The option undoubtely is useful for some, but it is not good UI decision, so I propose to turn it off by default, not remove. IZ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
2011/10/15 Ilya Zverev : > Hi! I've read http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Pieren/diary/15098 and it > seems that many people share an opinion that dynamic buttons are better > turned off. After I installed @4512, I was rather stunned: what? where? It > is hard to plan mouse movements when there is no destination visible. I got used to dynamic buttons almost immediately. Just clicked where they usually were, and they appeared right under mouse cursor. Dynamic buttons help a lot on small (mine is 1366x768 and it's small for josm) screens. But it might be worth making them opt-in, because newbies won't find them as easy as old josm users. -- Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski OSM BY Team - http://openstreetmap.by/ xmpp:m...@komzpa.net mailto:m...@komzpa.net ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] Dynamic buttons in side menus
Hi! I've read http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Pieren/diary/15098 and it seems that many people share an opinion that dynamic buttons are better turned off. After I installed @4512, I was rather stunned: what? where? It is hard to plan mouse movements when there is no destination visible. And really, does hiding action buttons really help? Properties panel is there not to check tags, but to edit them. Layers panel — to change layers. Why display extra lines, if you still need to scroll to do something with them? So, could we please have dynamic buttons turned off by default? IZ ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
