Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On 02/05/2012 03:01, Russ Nelson wrote: About once a month I need to move an entire way. I don't understand the use case for this feature. Can somebody (preferably somebody who uses it every day) explain it to me? I use it all the time (though I too get hit by accidental moves a lot as well - and I find the warning more trouble than it is worth - I always realise I did it, and it's much easier to turn it off and press CTRL+Z when it happens). I'm doing lots of buildings. I often create them in rectangular sections with the building tool which need assembling. It is also much easier when working on oblique satellite views to create the outlines at roof level and then reposition to ground afterwards (taking account, of course, of ground survey and differing roof heights). Similarly, it is often much easier to copy, paste and move areas of grass into position, and then tweak the nodes, than to create each individually from scratch. David ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
2012/5/2 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net: At 2012-05-01 19:01, Russ Nelson wrote: Having said that, because I rarely draw buildings, most of the time I end up moving a way in JOSM, it's a mistake. It usually happens when trying to select one of the midpoint 'x' to create a new node and position it, and selecting the whole way instead. Longer ways are protected by a dialog that warns you, but I'd like to see the same for shorter ways. you could achieve this by lowering the threshold in preferences. Actually with the lastest version as of now I saw that there seems to be no warning dialogue any more (at least I moved lots of geometry and there was no warning). Maybe regression? cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
At 2012-05-02 06:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2012/5/2 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net: At 2012-05-01 19:01, Russ Nelson wrote: Having said that, because I rarely draw buildings, most of the time I end up moving a way in JOSM, it's a mistake. It usually happens when trying to select one of the midpoint 'x' to create a new node and position it, and selecting the whole way instead. Longer ways are protected by a dialog that warns you, but I'd like to see the same for shorter ways. you could achieve this by lowering the threshold in preferences. True, once the ability to disable it for just one session existed, for the occasions when I'm drawing or editing buildings. Actually with the lastest version as of now I saw that there seems to be no warning dialogue any more (at least I moved lots of geometry and there was no warning). Maybe regression? Would you confirm and ticket that? I usually notice that it's happened from the visual cue of the way being highlighted, but not always. I'm sure I'm not alone. I've come across damage from this in the past and it's a pain to fix after other edits have occurred in the area. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
Alan Mintz writes: I don't use it every day, but those who draw buildings do (or should). Draw the roof of a tall building. Drag (usually somewhat diagonally) the whole (closed) way to move it to the correct ground position, based on whichever corner is visible at ground level. A, yes, of course. I wonder if shift-drag might not be appropriate for such uses, to split out that functionality from selection? I mean, how many times have you tried to draw a box around something, and found yourself dragging a way?? Given that the behavior is pernicious enough to warrant a protection warning, maybe it shouldn't be on the bare drag action? -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Wed, 2 May 2012, Russ Nelson wrote: Alan Mintz writes: I don't use it every day, but those who draw buildings do (or should). Draw the roof of a tall building. Drag (usually somewhat diagonally) the whole (closed) way to move it to the correct ground position, based on whichever corner is visible at ground level. A, yes, of course. I wonder if shift-drag might not be appropriate for such uses, to split out that functionality from selection? I mean, how many times have you tried to draw a box around something, and found yourself dragging a way?? Given that the behavior is pernicious enough to warrant a protection warning, maybe it shouldn't be on the bare drag action? Please open a ticket for this and continue discussion there. It seems sensible to me to make this a less easy acessible function. Today we have a lot of additional work methods, so dragging ways is probably not that important as it was in the past. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
Dirk Stöcker writes: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: is also not planned I think). There's just one big annoyance introduced: the key for delete mode. This now is impossible to select with just one hand, so you have to get the other hand off the mouse which really disturbs workflow. The D key removal was actually requested, as too many people accidentially deleted stuff. Oh, good, then can we get rid of the drag to move things feature for ways? Most of what I would call vandalism turns out to be somebody who dragged a whole way when they meant to move a single node. This problem has become worse since the ability to move a node which is part of a selected way was taken away. I don't mean to whine, because JOSM really is *that* good, but do you do ANY usability testing at all? For example, having the motion targets pop up and disappear on the right (e.g. you can't see Add in the Properties box until you've moved the cursor into the properties box) seems to break every usability principle that I know of. Fortunately, you added the feature which takes that misfeature away, so one hand giveth and the other taketh away. I think you should take Delete mode away. It's just fine for people to have to select the things they want to delete and then hit the 'delete' key. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 1:18 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote: Dirk Stöcker writes: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: is also not planned I think). There's just one big annoyance introduced: the key for delete mode. This now is impossible to select with just one hand, so you have to get the other hand off the mouse which really disturbs workflow. The D key removal was actually requested, as too many people accidentially deleted stuff. Oh, good, then can we get rid of the drag to move things feature for ways? Most of what I would call vandalism turns out to be somebody who dragged a whole way when they meant to move a single node. This problem has become worse since the ability to move a node which is part of a selected way was taken away. You can still move a node that is part of a way. Your mouse cursor just has to be inside the tiny square. I think there used to be a small buffer around it that got removed. You can bump the node size up in the advanced settings (mappaint.node.unselected-size) which will make the target you have to hit a little bigger but will also make it display larger on the screen which may or may not be desirable. Partially because of this I tend to just use the w mode to move nodes that are part of a way. But I do get hit by this every once in a while and usually it produces an expletive :) Toby ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
2012/5/1 Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com: Dirk Stöcker writes: Oh, good, then can we get rid of the drag to move things feature for ways? Most of what I would call vandalism turns out to be somebody who dragged a whole way when they meant to move a single node. This problem has become worse since the ability to move a node which is part of a selected way was taken away. there is a function that warns you if you move one or more ways with a total of more than x nodes, maybe reducing the default of x even more (to say 5 or so) would solve this issue. Who feels bothered then could raise the default in the preferences. I'm in favour of reducing x to a low value. cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
2012/5/1 Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com: You can still move a node that is part of a way. Your mouse cursor just has to be inside the tiny square. I think there used to be a small buffer around it that got removed. in latest I don't see the buffer removed. Do you have highlighting disabled? Otherwise you can also see whether you are inside the snapping range by highlighting and the kind of cursor symbol that is displayed (very good feature in usability terms IMHO). cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
2012/4/30 Dirk Stöcker openstreet...@dstoecker.de: The D key removal was actually requested, as too many people accidentially deleted stuff. If you have trouble with DEL key, then reassign the function to D. Together with shortcuts changes the whole system was reworked, so that local key assignments should be much more stable in the future (Conflicts now always lead to uncommon shortcuts instead of the cascading of the past). all right, I'll try this. In the past I had very bad experiences with reassigning shortcuts (shortcut-conflict cascades which changed lots of primary shortcuts, and reset of custom shortcuts after updates), so I decided not to do this any more, but if these problems are solved I am happy to customize this. cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
Toby Murray writes: Partially because of this I tend to just use the w mode to move nodes that are part of a way. OH YEAH BABY! 'w' mode is the cat's meow. Kudos to everybody who worked on that. I do most of my editing in 'w' mode now. But I do get hit by this every once in a while and usually it produces an expletive :) I'm just wondering how often you move an entire way, as opposed to a single node? You can get the same effect by selecting the way, searching for child selected, and then moving any one of the nodes. About once a month I need to move an entire way. I don't understand the use case for this feature. Can somebody (preferably somebody who uses it every day) explain it to me? -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
My apologies for ranting, but please do not change shortcuts that were in use for I-know-not-how long. I just downloaded rev 5181 and found that the d key did not work. Someone decided that it should be the delete key. I can understand the reasoning. But do not decide for the whole community that it is better to have everyone change the way they work just because you think it is better. If you think deleting an item should be the delete key and it was programmed as d, then your welcome to change it in your favourits. IMHO it is also a bad change because now I have to get my hand off the mouse to use the delete key where the d key is nicely positioned on the left side of the keyboard to use with my left hand. In principle, it is not a good idea to change long established customs. Regards, Maarten ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: In principle, it is not a good idea to change long established customs. This has been decided a looong time ago due to a russian forum complain: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2012-February/006033.html Our opinion and long established customs does not count very much on josm dev. Btw, you should update your JOSM more frequently. Then you don't have time to acquire habits. Pieren ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Maarten Deen wrote: My apologies for ranting, but please do not change shortcuts that were in use for I-know-not-how long. I just downloaded rev 5181 and found that the d key did not work. Someone decided that it should be the delete key. It is the delete key for probably about 3 years now. As the D key produced unwanted results it has been dropped and only DEL remains. Please read the related tickets and also lots of discussions here in josm-dev why we changed keys and why there was no alternative to this. I can understand the reasoning. But do not decide for the whole community that it is better to have everyone change the way they work just because you think it is better. If you think deleting an item should be the delete key and it was programmed as d, then your welcome to change it in your favourits. Actually it seems you cannot understand the reasoning. We did not simply change a key as we thought that would be nice (we did so for others where we had conflicts). For this function we had * two keys for the same function * one of these two causing troubles IMHO it is also a bad change because now I have to get my hand off the mouse to use the delete key where the d key is nicely positioned on the left side of the keyboard to use with my left hand. Well, deleting is a dangerous function and it is actually wanted that it is not too easy. In principle, it is not a good idea to change long established customs. Sorry, but I always hear that when we make changes but usually more users are happy about cleanups and only some old-timers have problems. I do not agree that we must keep old habits only to support some people to lazy to change. We never changed anything without good reasons and we also did not do now. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
2012/4/30 colliar colliar4e...@aol.com: On 30/04/12 16:54, Maarten Deen wrote: Pieren wrote: On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 4:13 PM, Maarten Deen md...@xs4all.nl wrote: The whole short cut system changed and improved. In this process some short cuts changed, but should not change in the near future. this is true and very much appreciated. After a short time you get used to the new keys, but of course they shouldn't change often (which is also not planned I think). There's just one big annoyance introduced: the key for delete mode. This now is impossible to select with just one hand, so you have to get the other hand off the mouse which really disturbs workflow. Maybe I am a particulare case, because my system seems to have a bug: often the WLAN drops when I hit the delete key (at least in JOSM). My current workaround is to click the delete-mode button with the mouse, which is still not optimal. Cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Maarten Deen wrote: To continue my rant: N used to be the method to place one node only. That seems to have disappeared too. It looks like I now have to start drawing a way with A and then press escape to end drawing the way so I can change its properties. 'N' was simply a secondary key for 'A' for a very long time now. It had exactly same function and thus has been removed. To place a single node use SHIFT + Click or ESC and afterwards Click. To end drawing after the node has been created either Double-Click or press ESC afterwards. All of this beeing available for a very long time also. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On 30-4-2012 18:46, Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Maarten Deen wrote: To continue my rant: N used to be the method to place one node only. That seems to have disappeared too. It looks like I now have to start drawing a way with A and then press escape to end drawing the way so I can change its properties. 'N' was simply a secondary key for 'A' for a very long time now. It had exactly same function and thus has been removed. To place a single node use SHIFT + Click or ESC and afterwards Click. N had not the same function. A starts a way, N sets a node. To set one node now, you have to do the things you mention. To set one note before you only had to select N and click once. In any case: it is more work. Yes, I'm nitpicking, but nitpicking is easy when there is no guide or releasenotes where this is mentioned. To end drawing after the node has been created either Double-Click or press ESC afterwards. All of this beeing available for a very long time also. If you are not using those other keys, you are not aware of them. I haven't read anywhere in releasenotes that certain shortcuts were dropped. I must have also missed all those discussions about it on this list because I can't remember any. Maarten ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: is also not planned I think). There's just one big annoyance introduced: the key for delete mode. This now is impossible to select with just one hand, so you have to get the other hand off the mouse which really disturbs workflow. The D key removal was actually requested, as too many people accidentially deleted stuff. If you have trouble with DEL key, then reassign the function to D. Together with shortcuts changes the whole system was reworked, so that local key assignments should be much more stable in the future (Conflicts now always lead to uncommon shortcuts instead of the cascading of the past). Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Maarten Deen wrote: 'N' was simply a secondary key for 'A' for a very long time now. It had exactly same function and thus has been removed. To place a single node use SHIFT + Click or ESC and afterwards Click. N had not the same function. A starts a way, N sets a node. To set one node now, you have to do the things you mention. To set one note before you only had to select N and click once. I find no code which validates your description. N was removed in this changeset and it was a simple analogon to A: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/changeset/4956/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/josm/actions/mapmode/DrawAction.java If it was as you described, then it vanished a long time ago and nobody noticed it. Which also is a good point to remove it. In any case: it is more work. Yes, I'm nitpicking, but nitpicking is easy when there is no guide or releasenotes where this is mentioned. It is still mentioned on the Start page, that key assignment are changed. For 3 months now. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
Dirk Stöcker wrote: On Mon, 30 Apr 2012, Maarten Deen wrote: 'N' was simply a secondary key for 'A' for a very long time now. It had exactly same function and thus has been removed. To place a single node use SHIFT + Click or ESC and afterwards Click. N had not the same function. A starts a way, N sets a node. To set one node now, you have to do the things you mention. To set one note before you only had to select N and click once. I find no code which validates your description. N was removed in this changeset and it was a simple analogon to A: https://josm.openstreetmap.de/changeset/4956/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/josm/actions/mapmode/DrawAction.java If it was as you described, then it vanished a long time ago and nobody noticed it. Which also is a good point to remove it. You are right, the simple fact that the N was dropped must have set me on the wrong foot. But I still remember there was a way (then maybe even longer ago) that you could just set one node and be done with it. But there you go: change one simple thing and there are people who are completely off track. You can make fun of this, but that's what happens. Still haven't found a mention that the N was going to be dropped. Maarten ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On 30/04/2012 18:00, Dirk Stöcker wrote: The D key removal was actually requested, as too many people accidentially deleted stuff. Absolutely - hugely better, thank you! The problem was it was right next to the S key so you ended up deleting stuff instead of selecting it. I was used to using the N key instead of A (if there was a difference, it was extremely subtle). But I've now unlearned my previous behaviour without too much trouble. David ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Please do not change long established shortcuts
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 7:41 PM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Absolutely - hugely better, thank you! The problem was it was right next to the S key so you ended up deleting stuff instead of selecting it. I don't know how small are you keyboard keys (or fat your fingers) but I never had this problem. As pointed by others, when you really edit/draw with this tool, the mode switch on one hand and the mouse on the other hand was very practical.Fortunately, it is still allowed to customize the shortcuts.Unfortunatelly, preferences are too often reset by versions upgrades. Pieren ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
