Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
If the PT_Assistant routing_helper has to help you 'reassemble' the ways on a turn-by-turn basis, it is indeed relatively slow. If however there are already other routes that contain the way you start from and the way after the gap, then it will propose this whole sequence of ways that's present in that other route relation and that makes it very fast for fixing route relations. I realise that the other thing I'm working on, the splitting in subroute relations is rather revolutionary and atm it's experimental at best. I thought you had mentioned something similar on another mailing list. Anyway coding it is harder than I expected, but the real difficulty will be in doing a proposal and getting it accepted by the community. It's definitely not the way we map bus routes at present. I do think it would be an advantage to fix 1 subroute relation when it breaks and have all the superroutes it's a member of being fixed at once, but working with all those lego-blocks of sub route relations might prove to be more complex. Anyway, it's a way for me to get into learning Java, doing actual programming, and it's also something I have been thinking about since I started mapping public transport in my own region. The reason why adding stops along an itinerary wasn't a priority up till now is that I have first added all the stops with their identifiers (over a course of about 2, 3 years). After that I had access to data of the Belgian operators and I could auto-generate route relations that contained the stops in the correct order. So adding the ways was the more time consuming part there (and adding the stops and moving them to their actual locations). Also adding stops alongside the itineraries is the one thing the old public transport plugin was useful for. Now, the next thing I should do is create something that allows me to do 'integration' based on GTFS (or DB dumps), to see if all the lines are still represented by route_master relations and all the itineraries are still represented by route relations. (By comparing the stop sequences in the operators' data and OSM). I'm doing that with Python and Pandas, but it still needs more work. Jo On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 8:54 PM wrote: > > We are also working on a renderer that gives something like a metro map > diagram > > OMG yes. I was looking for something like this. Problem is what you showed > doesn't show numbers nor overlay the routes over a roadmap, but it is good > start. I wanted to create a map like this? > > > https://www.ipswichbuses.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Ipswich_Buses_Network_Map_WEB.pdf > > (Just search "Ipswich Buses Map" if this link stops working) > > The problem with this map is that it only shows buses from the "Ipswich > Buses" company, however there are multiple companies operating buses in > Ipswich. > > > With the latest version of the plugin it will ask you whether you want > to remove oneway roads and split roundabout ways from the route relation. > If there are forward_stop/ backward_stop or _platform in the route relation > (as there were in Talinn where I was testing this) then it will also keep > all the forward or all the backward versions in each variant and rename the > roles. > > Is this taking about the JAR file you sent me or the latest release? > > > If you choose to sort the stops in the route relation on a route > relation that doesn't have the public_transport:version = 2 tag, it will > propose to duplicate the relation and create a route_master. Unfortunately > with the released version, it causes an exception / error while trying to > determine whether there is right or left hand traffic. > > > You are right, we should add functionality to stop all the stops that > are either on the left, or on the right where the itinerary passes. We're > working on that too. > > Personally, my suggestion is that you should focus on improving "adding > stop" facilities. Ways can be added manually pretty quickly. For example, I > added Bus 70 last week with the jar you sent me last week. The duplicate > route thing doesn't work, I don't think. I'm pretty sure it just removed > oneway ways? However, this isn't of much use because if the outbound route > takes a different direction to the inbound route, then not all of the ways > of this different direction is oneway. You then have to find and remove > these remaining ways. > > It is simply much, much quicker to just re-add all the ways in order > manually. For example, for bus route 70 (a rural route), it took 5 minutes, > even though this route is 35km long. Adding shorter urban routes should be > even easier. Adding ways is really quick: if it were down to that, I could > simply create both inbound and outbound relations in just 10 minutes. The > advantage with PT assistant is that if I have created the outbound route > (for example) I can fix the inbound route by finding places where it > follows a oneway road in the opposite direction. > > However, I don't think it can, or will be
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
> We are also working on a renderer that gives something like a metro map > diagram OMG yes. I was looking for something like this. Problem is what you showed doesn't show numbers nor overlay the routes over a roadmap, but it is good start. I wanted to create a map like this? https://www.ipswichbuses.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Ipswich_Buses_Network_Map_WEB.pdf (Just search "Ipswich Buses Map" if this link stops working) The problem with this map is that it only shows buses from the "Ipswich Buses" company, however there are multiple companies operating buses in Ipswich. > With the latest version of the plugin it will ask you whether you want to > remove oneway roads and split roundabout ways from the route relation. If > there are forward_stop/ backward_stop or _platform in the route relation (as > there were in Talinn where I was testing this) then it will also keep all the > forward or all the backward versions in each variant and rename the roles. Is this taking about the JAR file you sent me or the latest release? > If you choose to sort the stops in the route relation on a route relation > that doesn't have the public_transport:version = 2 tag, it will propose to > duplicate the relation and create a route_master. Unfortunately with the > released version, it causes an exception / error while trying to determine > whether there is right or left hand traffic. > You are right, we should add functionality to stop all the stops that are > either on the left, or on the right where the itinerary passes. We're working > on that too. Personally, my suggestion is that you should focus on improving "adding stop" facilities. Ways can be added manually pretty quickly. For example, I added Bus 70 last week with the jar you sent me last week. The duplicate route thing doesn't work, I don't think. I'm pretty sure it just removed oneway ways? However, this isn't of much use because if the outbound route takes a different direction to the inbound route, then not all of the ways of this different direction is oneway. You then have to find and remove these remaining ways. It is simply much, much quicker to just re-add all the ways in order manually. For example, for bus route 70 (a rural route), it took 5 minutes, even though this route is 35km long. Adding shorter urban routes should be even easier. Adding ways is really quick: if it were down to that, I could simply create both inbound and outbound relations in just 10 minutes. The advantage with PT assistant is that if I have created the outbound route (for example) I can fix the inbound route by finding places where it follows a oneway road in the opposite direction. However, I don't think it can, or will be able to tell which ways are part of the outbound and which ways are part of the inbound route when the PTV1 route contains both inbound and outbound ways. Also, PTV1 routes also are broken, so much so that the sort function fails to fix them. It is simply much quicker and easier to do them main The real problem was stops. This took be 30+ minutes. Now it takes more than an hour to add routes in both directions (compared to 5-10 minutes when just adding ways). A big portion of this time is aligning stops on the road, renaming stops, adding "local_ref" tags, (etc.) however some of this time could be slashed by adding a suggest stops feature. So, in my opinion, the focus should really be on that, not on trying to make adding ways faster. I have created a github issue for this, and it seems like one of the devs self-assigned to solve this problem, which is great. > That's the result for Ipswich. It chopped up all the route relations into > subroute relations. I think it goes in the direction of what you were asking > in the other thread. ??? What is the purpose of chopping these relations into smaller "subrelation"? A single relation is meant to represent a single route taken by a bus. IpswichMapper P.S. Your previous email doesn't show up on the mailing list archive. Is it because it contains images? -- 15 Nov 2020, 11:54 by winfi...@gmail.com: > Hi, > > If you choose to sort the stops in the route relation on a route relation > that doesn't have the public_transport:version = 2 tag, it will propose to > duplicate the relation and create a route_master. Unfortunately with the > released version, it causes an exception / error while trying to determine > whether there is right or left hand traffic. > > I'll add a jar file with the latest version of the plugin. It's not ready for > release yet, but you can test it, if you like. > > Gmail doesn't allow me to send it, so I renamed it. Remove the text in > allcaps from the file name and copy it to your JOSM plugins folder. > > If you want to go back to the released version, simply delete the file and > JOSM will download it again for you. JOSM might also ask you to update your > plugins when it starts, if you want to use this version, you shouldn't
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
Hi Jo, I installed and played around with pt_assistant yesterday, and yes you are right it seems a lot more than just an validator. For example, if I reverse a relation it lets me find and replace the ways which are one way and in the wrong direction. However, I find the bright colours and paint styles a bit over the top - it makes it difficult to see which ways I have selected. Considering this, is it possible to add the "suggest stops" feature to pt_assistant, (from the "public transport" plugin)? This would make it so that only this add-on is needed for public transport relations, you don't need the other addon. > It has many features to help you create bus routes I already know it can help modify errors in routes, but what does it do to specifically build a new route from scratch. > recently I added some features to help with conversion from PTv1 to PTv2 What features? Before pt_assistant, to upgrade from PTv1 to PTv2, I would duplicate the PTv1 relation. Then I would select all the ways in the order the bus follows them and add those ways to the relation (and delete the old ones). I would then add stops by downloading the area around the stop and adding it (you can see stops on the carto map when downloading, or by looking at https://bustimes.org ). I would repeat this in full for the other direction. Now, I have sped up the process a bit. Firstly I download the PTv1 relation, and then select all the ways in the correct order, like before, and add them to the relation, removing the old one. Then, I add the stops manually, again. However, now I have done one side, I duplicate this, and fix any segments that go over a oneway road in the wrong direction using pt_assistant's "route_helper". I then download the area surrounding the route by selecting it and "File--> Download along". Then, I select all the members of this new relation, select only stops from the members, and mark all the stops with the tag "test=test". I then use the "suggest stops" feature of the "public transport" plugin, but check "stops appear on both sides". This way stops on the left and right side of the road are added to the relation. >From here, I can select all the stops with "test=test" and remove them from >the relation. Finally, I check this new relation against the >https://bustimes.org version to check if it is correct. What advantages would the "experimental pt_assistant features" that you are talking about bring? > For the past few years I mentored students to develop the plugin. This meant > it only got developed 3 months per year though. What do you mean by this? > whether it would make sense to have the itineraries as superroute relations > that contain route relations for the 'bundles'. What do you mean by this? > Would you have time for a Google Hangout this weekend? I would like to > demonstrate how converting route relations to PTv2 works. Sorry, I don't even have a personal google account, let alone one for mapping purposes. I don't have a microphone either. Regardless, I would prefer to stay anonymous. > I would like to demonstrate how converting route relations to PTv2 works. Feel free to add any tricks I missed in my description of converting PTv1 to PTv2. Thanks, IpswichMapper -- 14 Nov 2020, 10:56 by winfi...@gmail.com: > Hi, > > I'm not sure why you think PT_Assistant is simply a validator. It has many > features to help you create bus routes and recently I added some features to > help with conversion from PTv1 to PTv2. Those are not in the released version > yet though, because I'm also adding some other features (experimental). For > the past few years I mentored students to develop the plugin. This meant it > only got developed 3 months per year though. So recently I started learning > Java and now I'm doing some development on it myself. Something I wanted to > figure out for a long time, is whether it would make sense to have the > itineraries as superroute relations that contain route relations for the > 'bundles'. Work in progress... > > Would you have time for a Google Hangout this weekend? I would like to > demonstrate how converting route relations to PTv2 works. > > Jo (Polyglot) > > > > On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:10 PM ipswichmapper--- via josm-dev <> > josm-dev@openstreetmap.org> > wrote: > >> Sorry, I meant to say "what inherant flaws does PTV2 have". >> -- >> Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox: >> >> https://tutanota.com >> >> >> 13 Nov 2020, 21:04 by >> josm-dev@openstreetmap.org>> : >> >> > Great! This should hopefully simplify the improvement of this addon. >> > >> > 1. What inherant flaws did the sudtem have? >> > 2. How easy is it to determine if a way is "forward" or "backward" >> > automatically? >> > >> > Also, it seems that the relation editor can sort ways, so a rewrite of >> > this addon can remove this feature. >> > -- >> > >> > >> > >> > 13 Nov 2020, 20:53 by >>
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
Hi, I'm not sure why you think PT_Assistant is simply a validator. It has many features to help you create bus routes and recently I added some features to help with conversion from PTv1 to PTv2. Those are not in the released version yet though, because I'm also adding some other features (experimental). For the past few years I mentored students to develop the plugin. This meant it only got developed 3 months per year though. So recently I started learning Java and now I'm doing some development on it myself. Something I wanted to figure out for a long time, is whether it would make sense to have the itineraries as superroute relations that contain route relations for the 'bundles'. Work in progress... Would you have time for a Google Hangout this weekend? I would like to demonstrate how converting route relations to PTv2 works. Jo (Polyglot) On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:10 PM ipswichmapper--- via josm-dev < josm-dev@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > Sorry, I meant to say "what inherant flaws does PTV2 have". > -- > Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox: > https://tutanota.com > > > 13 Nov 2020, 21:04 by josm-dev@openstreetmap.org: > > > Great! This should hopefully simplify the improvement of this addon. > > > > 1. What inherant flaws did the sudtem have? > > 2. How easy is it to determine if a way is "forward" or "backward" > automatically? > > > > Also, it seems that the relation editor can sort ways, so a rewrite of > this addon can remove this feature. > > -- > > > > > > > > 13 Nov 2020, 20:53 by roland.olbri...@gmx.de: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> thank you for the feedback. > >> > >>> Furthermore, this plugin is closed-source (as far as I know), so it > cannot be "fixed". > >>> > >> > >> The plugin is open source, see > >> > https://github.com/openstreetmap/josm-plugins/tree/master/public_transport > >> > >> The problem is that maintaining the plugin is a lot of work. I abandoned > >> the development long ago because public transport v2 would have meant > >> too much work, because the scheme has inherent flaws. Any such flaw does > >> fall on the developer multiple times, for implementation, for developing > >> test cases for all the undefined corner cases, for a UI that explains > >> what the software actually does. > >> > >> By contrast, updating to a single different set of tags for stop poles > >> is not a substantial problem. > >> > >>> This would mean you could immediately add all the stops in the click > of a button, and sort broken relations in a click of a button. > >>> > >> > >> Since writing this plugin, the relation editor has superseded most of > >> the way sorting features. Thus, it no longer makes sense to duplicate > >> the sorting capabilities in a distinct plugin. > >> > >> I would nowadays add buttons to the relation editor rather than a > >> separate relation editor. > >> > >> There is also an unfinished routing algorithm in the plugin. I never had > >> found a reasonable UI to exhibit that to the end user. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Roland > >> >
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
Sorry, I meant to say "what inherant flaws does PTV2 have". -- Securely sent with Tutanota. Get your own encrypted, ad-free mailbox: https://tutanota.com 13 Nov 2020, 21:04 by josm-dev@openstreetmap.org: > Great! This should hopefully simplify the improvement of this addon. > > 1. What inherant flaws did the sudtem have? > 2. How easy is it to determine if a way is "forward" or "backward" > automatically? > > Also, it seems that the relation editor can sort ways, so a rewrite of this > addon can remove this feature. > -- > > > > 13 Nov 2020, 20:53 by roland.olbri...@gmx.de: > >> Hi all, >> >> thank you for the feedback. >> >>> Furthermore, this plugin is closed-source (as far as I know), so it cannot >>> be "fixed". >>> >> >> The plugin is open source, see >> https://github.com/openstreetmap/josm-plugins/tree/master/public_transport >> >> The problem is that maintaining the plugin is a lot of work. I abandoned >> the development long ago because public transport v2 would have meant >> too much work, because the scheme has inherent flaws. Any such flaw does >> fall on the developer multiple times, for implementation, for developing >> test cases for all the undefined corner cases, for a UI that explains >> what the software actually does. >> >> By contrast, updating to a single different set of tags for stop poles >> is not a substantial problem. >> >>> This would mean you could immediately add all the stops in the click of a >>> button, and sort broken relations in a click of a button. >>> >> >> Since writing this plugin, the relation editor has superseded most of >> the way sorting features. Thus, it no longer makes sense to duplicate >> the sorting capabilities in a distinct plugin. >> >> I would nowadays add buttons to the relation editor rather than a >> separate relation editor. >> >> There is also an unfinished routing algorithm in the plugin. I never had >> found a reasonable UI to exhibit that to the end user. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Roland >>
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
Thanks. I didn't find the source code for this plugin after searching for it online. I don't think I have the programming expertise to actually contribute to this progeamming. The most I can do in Java is writing some programs that run in the console. That was why I was suggesting this to any devs who are interested, as "suggest stops" could really streamline the public transport process.-- 13 Nov 2020, 21:00 by openstreet...@dstoecker.de: > On Fri, 13 Nov 2020, ipswichmapper--- wrote: > >> Can this addon be rewritten as an open-source addon that supports PTV2 and >> actually works? >> > > Why should we rewrite it? It's already open source like most (all?) official > plugins. > > https://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/osm/applications/editors/josm/plugins/public_transport > > As for improvements, feel free to help yourself if you think a topic > important enough. Patches are always welcome. > > Otherwise all JOSM contributors developing stuff in their free time and they > naturally choose tasks which are important or interesting to themself. > > We're happy to help everybody who wants to help but does not yet have enough > knowledge if the willigness to learn is visible. > > Ciao > -- > http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) >
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
Great! This should hopefully simplify the improvement of this addon. 1. What inherant flaws did the sudtem have? 2. How easy is it to determine if a way is "forward" or "backward" automatically? Also, it seems that the relation editor can sort ways, so a rewrite of this addon can remove this feature. -- 13 Nov 2020, 20:53 by roland.olbri...@gmx.de: > Hi all, > > thank you for the feedback. > >> Furthermore, this plugin is closed-source (as far as I know), so it cannot >> be "fixed". >> > > The plugin is open source, see > https://github.com/openstreetmap/josm-plugins/tree/master/public_transport > > The problem is that maintaining the plugin is a lot of work. I abandoned > the development long ago because public transport v2 would have meant > too much work, because the scheme has inherent flaws. Any such flaw does > fall on the developer multiple times, for implementation, for developing > test cases for all the undefined corner cases, for a UI that explains > what the software actually does. > > By contrast, updating to a single different set of tags for stop poles > is not a substantial problem. > >> This would mean you could immediately add all the stops in the click of a >> button, and sort broken relations in a click of a button. >> > > Since writing this plugin, the relation editor has superseded most of > the way sorting features. Thus, it no longer makes sense to duplicate > the sorting capabilities in a distinct plugin. > > I would nowadays add buttons to the relation editor rather than a > separate relation editor. > > There is also an unfinished routing algorithm in the plugin. I never had > found a reasonable UI to exhibit that to the end user. > > Best regards, > > Roland >
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020, ipswichmapper--- wrote: Can this addon be rewritten as an open-source addon that supports PTV2 and actually works? Why should we rewrite it? It's already open source like most (all?) official plugins. https://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/osm/applications/editors/josm/plugins/public_transport As for improvements, feel free to help yourself if you think a topic important enough. Patches are always welcome. Otherwise all JOSM contributors developing stuff in their free time and they naturally choose tasks which are important or interesting to themself. We're happy to help everybody who wants to help but does not yet have enough knowledge if the willigness to learn is visible. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
Re: A functioning Public Transport plugin
Hi all, thank you for the feedback. Furthermore, this plugin is closed-source (as far as I know), so it cannot be "fixed". The plugin is open source, see https://github.com/openstreetmap/josm-plugins/tree/master/public_transport The problem is that maintaining the plugin is a lot of work. I abandoned the development long ago because public transport v2 would have meant too much work, because the scheme has inherent flaws. Any such flaw does fall on the developer multiple times, for implementation, for developing test cases for all the undefined corner cases, for a UI that explains what the software actually does. By contrast, updating to a single different set of tags for stop poles is not a substantial problem. This would mean you could immediately add all the stops in the click of a button, and sort broken relations in a click of a button. Since writing this plugin, the relation editor has superseded most of the way sorting features. Thus, it no longer makes sense to duplicate the sorting capabilities in a distinct plugin. I would nowadays add buttons to the relation editor rather than a separate relation editor. There is also an unfinished routing algorithm in the plugin. I never had found a reasonable UI to exhibit that to the end user. Best regards, Roland
