Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop
In any case, as I read it, the implication is that oracle simply doesn't want to be involved, not that anything will be going away. Simon Am 08.03.2018 um 08:36 schrieb Frederik Ramm: > Hi, > > On 08.03.2018 00:06, Vincent Privat wrote: >> I'm not sure what it implies for the long-term development of JOSM, but >> nothing good I fear. > I wouldn't be too concerned. With all due respect for your coding work, > I don't think that the actual program code is the essential thing about > JOSM. It's the functionality and user interface, the decade-long (!) > evolution that has given us the powerful tool we have today. > > You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and > it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not > share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the > experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the > years. > > I think what is essential about JOSM will live on even if Java should die. > > Bye > Frederik > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Frederik Ramm wrote: You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the years. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop
On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote: [nothing] Sorry, operator error :-) Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop
WebStart is going away. It is the only part of Java that isn't open source and they explicitely stated they won't open source it: https://twitter.com/DonaldOJDK/status/971492781616136194 So at least starting from September we'll have to make the WebStart link less prominent as it won't work anymore for Windows and macOS users having their Java up-to-date. It will work natively only on Linux, where openjdk package includes the retro-engineered free version of WebStart (netx/icedtea-web): https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web I don't know if the few (single?) people behind IcedTea-Web will have the desire to maintain it after Oracle drops it from JDK. I don't know either if icedtea-web requires jar signing: maybe we will be able to drop the requirement to sign josm.jar, thus asking to Frederik to pay for the certificates ;) JavaFX will be given to someone else soon. Maybe the Eclipse Foundation, like Java EE which has be transferred to Eclipse, without the permission to call it Java EE anymore. Or maybe the Apache Foundation, where they already made OpenOffice and Hudson die there (given that they have been successfully forked as LibreOffice and Jenkins). AWT and Swing will still be here in Java 11. But the fact they mention it explicitely today probably means they have plans to remove it as soon as Java 12 development starts (in 6 months). I have no idea if the new project will create enough traction to have enough contributors (volunteers or pais staff from other companies), we'll see. Swing is still used a lot in the industry. At least we should be able to fix Swing bugs ourselves when we find ones. Concerning JOSM it means we will probably have to ship AWT, Swing and JavaFX in josm.jar. In JDK9 the desktop module (AWT+Swing) weights 13Mb, the various JavaFX modules 30Mb. JOSM jar is only 12Mb today. Cheers, Vincent 2018-03-08 11:19 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker : > On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote: > > [nothing] > > Sorry, operator error :-) > > > Ciao > -- > http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) >
Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop
On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 08:36:21AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: > You could sit down today and re-implement everything in, say, C++, and > it would be relatively straightforward, and while the result would not > share any of JOSM's codebase, it would still encapsulate all the > experience and brainpower that has flown into JOSM development over the > years. true in principle but you would need a protable GUI that doesn't suck or you end up programming for at least 3 platforms with 3 sets of bugs, 3 sets of dependencies etc. Richard
Re: The (dark) future of Java on desktop
My reading of this Oracle post is that is to actually change the way you ship the applications. Instead of relying on JRE installation on client station - ship your code bundled with JRE as jlink does (and take care about all the updates yourself). Anyway I guess that we can assume that number of end-user installations of JRE will be shrinking, so shipping JRE together with your application might be already a good idea. We should watch what Eclipse will do about it (and all the commercial tooling based on Eclipse). My guess is that they will not give up on it so easily. It means then that we need to cover all platforms in our build system. This would be the case also whatever programming language we will take. If JOSM were to abandon Java as a language maybe we should think about extending/repackaging/repurposing QGis? I guess that probably there were such ideas in the past? Cheers, Wiktor 2018-03-08 19:07 GMT+01:00 Vincent Privat : > WebStart is going away. It is the only part of Java that isn't open source > and they explicitely stated they won't open source it: > https://twitter.com/DonaldOJDK/status/971492781616136194 > > So at least starting from September we'll have to make the WebStart link > less prominent as it won't work anymore for Windows and macOS users having > their Java up-to-date. It will work natively only on Linux, where openjdk > package includes the retro-engineered free version of WebStart > (netx/icedtea-web): > https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web > > I don't know if the few (single?) people behind IcedTea-Web will have the > desire to maintain it after Oracle drops it from JDK. I don't know either > if icedtea-web requires jar signing: maybe we will be able to drop the > requirement to sign josm.jar, thus asking to Frederik to pay for the > certificates ;) > > JavaFX will be given to someone else soon. Maybe the Eclipse Foundation, > like Java EE which has be transferred to Eclipse, without the permission to > call it Java EE anymore. Or maybe the Apache Foundation, where they already > made OpenOffice and Hudson die there (given that they have been > successfully forked as LibreOffice and Jenkins). > > AWT and Swing will still be here in Java 11. But the fact they mention it > explicitely today probably means they have plans to remove it as soon as > Java 12 development starts (in 6 months). I have no idea if the new project > will create enough traction to have enough contributors (volunteers or pais > staff from other companies), we'll see. Swing is still used a lot in the > industry. At least we should be able to fix Swing bugs ourselves when we > find ones. > > Concerning JOSM it means we will probably have to ship AWT, Swing and > JavaFX in josm.jar. In JDK9 the desktop module (AWT+Swing) weights 13Mb, > the various JavaFX modules 30Mb. JOSM jar is only 12Mb today. > > Cheers, > Vincent > > 2018-03-08 11:19 GMT+01:00 Dirk Stöcker : > > > On Thu, 8 Mar 2018, Dirk Stöcker wrote: > > > > [nothing] > > > > Sorry, operator error :-) > > > > > > Ciao > > -- > > http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) > > >
