Re: [kde-community] Wikis uneditable
On Sun, Feb 14, 2016 at 11:48 PM, Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > Hi Ben, Hi Jaroslaw, > > It seems that techbase isn't locked. There were a few acts of > vandalism too: https://techbase.kde.org/Special:Log/delete Techbase should definitely be locked for normal user editing. It is possible you are a member of a historical group there which has edit powers though. I don't see any evidence of vandalism in that log, just spam cleanup... > > PS: Any update on possible solutions for the wikis? It's a work in progress, requiring a full Mediawiki update and all the challenges that implies. Cheers, Ben > > > On 2 February 2016 at 08:51, Ben Cooksley wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Until further notice, all wikis hosted under KDE.org have been >> rendered uneditable by everyone except members of the Identity group >> "web-admins". >> >> Unfortunately it seems bots (or a human sweatshop) have completely >> automated the login (via OpenID/Identity none the less) and abusive >> editing of many of our wikis. >> >> This appears to be an issue being experienced by other Mediawiki >> installations elsewhere as well. >> >> At some point we may reinvestigate restoring editing rights to a more >> limited number of users, but until then our wikis will remain closed >> to editing. >> >> If necessary, we may need to consider migration to alternative Wiki software. >> >> Regards, >> Ben Cooksley >> KDE Sysadmin >> ___ >> kde-community mailing list >> kde-community@kde.org >> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > > > > -- > regards, Jaroslaw Staniek > > KDE: > : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators > : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org > Calligra Suite: > : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org > Kexi: > : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi > Qt Certified Specialist: > : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On Monday, February 15, 2016 1:49:44 PM CET Alexander Dymo wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin Graesslin wrote: > >> Maybe GUI -> UI would solve that. Or "primary focus is the UI". > > > > Would be much better. It at least doesn't exclude things like speech > > recognition. > > +1 to the UI > > > Using a simple example: today I created a GSoC project idea which is a > > docker container for KWin to be useable as a Plasma mobile emulator and > > also cloud. Is that UI? I don't know. It would render somwhere, but is > > that enough to consider it as a UI? Or is in that case KWin just a piece > > of server software without any UI (e.g. access through VNC/rdesktop/html5 > > with no direct interaction in KWin)? > > It's rather simple. All these pieces (and also the Akonadi example > that Ingo brought) are the foundation/infrastructure to the "thing" > that the end user will see on their device and interact with. But where is then the guidance for the developers? Will they start thinking "hey KDE is about GUI, my application doesn't fit anymore?". What about projects wanting to join us? Will they think they fit? Will we let them in? No we wouldn't, because that's not what we are doing, it's not fitting our vision. But a product evolved from within KDE would be allowed to do it, because it's the "foundation". I find this thought of a two class world terrible, terrible, terrible. That's what you in if you put up words into a vision which don't fit the reality. We don't do cloud, but we do. Contradictions, first class and second class project. I don't want that and I'm sure that you don't want that either. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 9:48:18 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:00:45 Alexander Dymo wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:01 AM, Martin Graesslin > > wrote: > > > That's what we have been doing the last few years, so where are they? > > > Where > > > are the devs taking our application to mobile, etc. etc. > > > > KF(5) has barely reached the point where it's usable on mobile > > devices. Before it was too painful (I tried), and I know of several > > examples where people went Qt-only to be able to produce a mobile app. > > Same applies to cross-platform desktop apps. > > > > I mean, there was a huge amount of work done within KDE to make this > > possible. There's still a huge amount of work to make it easy. It's > > about time to capitalize on that instead of trying every other cool > > thing out there and spreading too thin. > > +1 hey can we be a little bit more ambitious about KDE? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 6:36:18 PM CET Lydia Pintscher wrote: > Hi everyone, > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows: > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom, > privacy and control over their digital life." Is the freedom in this vision also meant that our technology follows the principle of free software? Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 10:22:20 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote: > ... > > > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI > > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE > > GUI > > knowledge? > > > > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. > > Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming > there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation... > > If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see ? I'm not a prophet, I have no clue what will be after graphical interfaces. But some things we already see today emerging: speech for starters. Another example are all this Virtual Reality stuff which is not graphical in the sense of a GUI. Our phones notifies through vibration. We have smart watches interacting through sensors with the body. All without a GUI. There is a world beyond GUI. Things relevant to our users. Things relevant to privacy. I want KDE to be there, to give secure and privacy aware solutions also on future interaction patterns and not be limited by saying we only do GUI. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:37:49 CET Laszlo Papp wrote: > In which case, what if digital life is not the future? If the world goes completely back to pen and paper, I fear KDE becomes obsolete, because I don't think we could adapt to that world. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:49:58 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the > > > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and > > > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows: > > > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom, > > > privacy and control over their digital life." > > > > just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not > "software" ? > > Yes, this is intentional. Since the vision is supposed to merely outline > the > future we want to live in, not how to get there, we did not want to > restrict > ourselves to software. > > If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much intertwined > that we cannot influence the future with software alone anymore, we don't > want > people to say "But our vision says we only do software!". > In which case, what if digital life is not the future? (SCNR) ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 21:49:58 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the > > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and > > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows: > > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom, > > privacy and control over their digital life." > > just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not "software" ? Yes, this is intentional. Since the vision is supposed to merely outline the future we want to live in, not how to get there, we did not want to restrict ourselves to software. If, say, 10 years down the road, hard- and software is so much intertwined that we cannot influence the future with software alone anymore, we don't want people to say "But our vision says we only do software!". ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Community vision and product vision
On Montag, 15. Februar 2016 22:02:18 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:41:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: > > My suggestion, therefore, is: Why don't those who are looking for a common > > product direction band together and create one, which however is not > > "mandatory" for all of KDE. Instead, any project that adheres to this > > common product vision could publicly commit to it, and the suite made up > > of all of these products could even create their own _product brand_ > > (within KDE as the community brand) to reflect that. That way, we can > > have a collective product brand with a collective product vision without > > having to exclude any project which follows the same _community vision_ > > out of KDE. > > > > To me, this sounds like a win/win situation for all of us. What do you > > think? > > just a thought: if we go this way, I suggest we try whether we can get that > done at once, and announce both together/at the same time. Sure, why not? The only potential problem I see with this is that finding a good common product vision might take a little more time, and I'd neither want to rush the product vision nor delay the publishing of the community vision too long. Therefore, if we all decide to go this route, I'd suggest to start the product vision creation process right away and see how it goes. If that process goes well and it looks like the product vision can be finished soon, then I see no downside in publishing them at the same time (maybe in the same article, we could decide that later). If, however, those working on the product vision decide that they would like to give themselves more time, it might be better to publish the generally agreed upon community vision with a remark that an overarching product vision is in the works and will be published soon. Cheers, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 15:11:47 Martin Graesslin wrote: ... > Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI > maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE GUI > knowledge? > > Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. Yes, but I have really a hard time understanding it. I'm actually assuming there must be some misunderstanding, different bias or interpretation... If the future interfaces won't be graphical, what other options do you see ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Community vision and product vision
On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:41:14 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote: ... > Now the thing is: As many of you surely already know, I'm a big fan of > product visions. Whenever I start working with a community within KDE, the > first thing I ask is "Do we have a product vision yet?", and if the answer > is "no", then I help them create one for their specific product. > However, when members of the KDE Usability team (and later the VDG) tried to > encourage the community to create a common product vision for all of KDE's > products in the past, we were faced with the argument that looking for a > such a vision would be pointless, since it would either not fit every > project in KDE, or if it did, it would be too vague to be useful. here are two links to those discussions: https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-community/2014q1/000541.html https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-community/2014q3/001046.html ... > My suggestion, therefore, is: Why don't those who are looking for a common > product direction band together and create one, which however is not > "mandatory" for all of KDE. Instead, any project that adheres to this common > product vision could publicly commit to it, and the suite made up of all of > these products could even create their own _product brand_ (within KDE as > the community brand) to reflect that. That way, we can have a collective > product brand with a collective product vision without having to exclude > any project which follows the same _community vision_ out of KDE. > > To me, this sounds like a win/win situation for all of us. What do you > think? just a thought: if we go this way, I suggest we try whether we can get that done at once, and announce both together/at the same time. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote: > Hi everyone, > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows: > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom, > privacy and control over their digital life." just to make sure: this intentionally uses "technology" and not "software" ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:00:45 Alexander Dymo wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:01 AM, Martin Graesslin wrote: > > That's what we have been doing the last few years, so where are they? > > Where > > are the devs taking our application to mobile, etc. etc. > > KF(5) has barely reached the point where it's usable on mobile > devices. Before it was too painful (I tried), and I know of several > examples where people went Qt-only to be able to produce a mobile app. > Same applies to cross-platform desktop apps. > > I mean, there was a huge amount of work done within KDE to make this > possible. There's still a huge amount of work to make it easy. It's > about time to capitalize on that instead of trying every other cool > thing out there and spreading too thin. +1 Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On Monday, February 15, 2016 07:54:40 Martin Graesslin wrote: ... > Please ask yourself the following question: what if a project inside KDE > started to do it? What would happen with the project? Would they stay in or > would they leave KDE? > > I understand that you want to draw a line to define what KDE is. How to put it, mainly I want us to draw an arrow pointing into the direction of the main thrust vector which pushes KDE forward. And it should be somewhat concrete. Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On Monday, February 15, 2016 19:12:35 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > On Sunday 14 February 2016 23:57:56 Alexander Neundorf wrote: ... > > I mean, we are not targetting e.g. sensor networks built from 8bit uCs > > communicating to some big online server, with no user intervention > > (which would fit that description too), or are we ? > > Please don't speak for me. You've made it absolutely clear that _you_ > are only interested in GUI. That's totally fine. We need people who > focus on (G)UI applications. But we also need people who focus on non- > GUI-stuff. A large part of Frameworks 5 is non-GUI-stuff. Akonadi (and > its spin-off) is non-GUI stuff. Sure. Still, all or most of this has been written in order to build first class GUI applications. I mean, Akonadi is there to make the kdepim apps work nicely. > Therefore, I'm against a-priori excluding anybody who is not interested > in (G)UI applications from KDE by restricting ourselves in our vision to > (G)UI applications. > > Of course, the mission statement can mention that we _mostly_ (but not > entirely) focus on (G)UI applications and supporting libraries and > services. Yes. But is this really necessary ? To me, to concentrate or focus on something does not imply not doing anything else, and software which supports that focused item to me does not even count as "something else". E.g. at work I'm typically concentrated on the big features for the next release, but of course other stuff also gets done by the way. I am really wondering why so many people are interpreting https://community.kde.org/KDE/VisionDraftA as "we do GUI and want to exclude every single library and executable which doesn't have a GUI". Which part or wording gives that impression ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Hallo Ingo, On Monday, February 15, 2016 14:31:09 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Hi Ingo, > > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote: ... > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission. > > Ok. > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the vision, > or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission combined. > > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the > products created by the KDE community. IOW: it seems to me that our alternate vision draft is more a vision+mission ? If so, I guess the introdcution statement is what is usually called "vision" ? "KDE is a community of free software enthusiasts that strives to provide graphical user interfaces and applications for end-users for all types of computers across the device spectrum: desktops PCs, laptops, tablet, smartphones, etc. We believe that software should be free and respectful of the privacy of our users. Our values are stated in the KDE Manifesto." After all the discussions, I guess the manifesto doesn't really have to be mentioned there, since this is a separate issue ? Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On 15 February 2016 at 20:40, Alexander Dymo wrote: > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, A. Spehr wrote: > > "World domination through free software." > > > > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but > that > > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, > while > > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? > > I'm all for world domination :) But as the start, I'd be OK with KDE > dominating the software that people use on their personal computing > devices (both mobile and not). Aren't all these devices cool? > No surprise you are :) http://i.imgur.com/f3rJdnN.png /me hides ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 1:01 AM, Martin Graesslin wrote: > That's what we have been doing the last few years, so where are they? Where > are the devs taking our application to mobile, etc. etc. KF(5) has barely reached the point where it's usable on mobile devices. Before it was too painful (I tried), and I know of several examples where people went Qt-only to be able to produce a mobile app. Same applies to cross-platform desktop apps. I mean, there was a huge amount of work done within KDE to make this possible. There's still a huge amount of work to make it easy. It's about time to capitalize on that instead of trying every other cool thing out there and spreading too thin. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 2:50 AM, Martin Graesslin wrote: >> Maybe GUI -> UI would solve that. Or "primary focus is the UI". > Would be much better. It at least doesn't exclude things like speech > recognition. +1 to the UI > Using a simple example: today I created a GSoC project idea which is a docker > container for KWin to be useable as a Plasma mobile emulator and also cloud. > Is that UI? I don't know. It would render somwhere, but is that enough to > consider it as a UI? Or is in that case KWin just a piece of server software > without any UI (e.g. access through VNC/rdesktop/html5 with no direct > interaction in KWin)? It's rather simple. All these pieces (and also the Akonadi example that Ingo brought) are the foundation/infrastructure to the "thing" that the end user will see on their device and interact with. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:51 AM, A. Spehr wrote: > "World domination through free software." > > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but that > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, while > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? I'm all for world domination :) But as the start, I'd be OK with KDE dominating the software that people use on their personal computing devices (both mobile and not). Aren't all these devices cool? ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
On Monday 15 February 2016 18:36:18 Lydia Pintscher wrote: > Hi everyone, > > A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the > community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and > have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows: > "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom, > privacy and control over their digital life." I like it. My only nitpick is with "freedom, privacy and control over their digital life", because when reading it, I automatically parsed it as "freedom over their digital life, privacy over their digital life and control over their digital life" which doesn't make sense. What about "[...] everyone has control over their digital life, freedom, and privacy". Hmm, no. This can be misread as "control over their digital life, control over their freedom, and control over their privacy". What about "[...] everyone has freedom and privacy and control over their digital life". It's a bit convoluted, but I think it better avoids the misreading. Regards, Ingo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On 15 February 2016 at 19:12, Ingo Klöcker wrote: > On Sunday 14 February 2016 23:57:56 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 13:12:52 Lydia Pintscher wrote: > > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Olaf Schmidt-Wischhöfer wrote: > > > I agree that integration within our projects is important. And I > > > believe it has suffered lately as the cohesion inside KDE became > > > less. My gut feeling is that this should go in the mission. > > > > > > > I would suggest a sentence like the following: > > > > “KDE aims to offer complete, well-integrated solutions – while > > > > connecting different platforms, devices and online services.” > > > > > > That sounds good to me. > > > > To me too, but I still miss the reference that it is about software > > with graphical user interfaces (GUI's can also have gesture or voice > > input etc.), which Olaf seems to imply too. > > I mean, we are not targetting e.g. sensor networks built from 8bit uCs > > communicating to some big online server, with no user intervention > > (which would fit that description too), or are we ? > > Please don't speak for me. You've made it absolutely clear that _you_ > are only interested in GUI. That's totally fine. We need people who > focus on (G)UI applications. But we also need people who focus on non- > GUI-stuff. A large part of Frameworks 5 is non-GUI-stuff. Akonadi (and > its spin-off) is non-GUI stuff. > > Therefore, I'm against a-priori excluding anybody who is not interested > in (G)UI applications from KDE by restricting ourselves in our vision to > (G)UI applications. > > Of course, the mission statement can mention that we _mostly_ (but not > entirely) focus on (G)UI applications and supporting libraries and > services. > > > >From another angle: it's something seriously not good if mature, nontrivial apps are not layered. Then, for sufficiently complex challenges (think PIM, IDEs, RADs) the architecture benefits from having purely non-GUI layers. It's a bit more forced by-design with the Qt Quick tech but should be encouraged also for the QWidget world that is the current stable reality for us, KDE. > Regards, > Ingo > > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community > -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On Sunday 14 February 2016 23:57:56 Alexander Neundorf wrote: > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 13:12:52 Lydia Pintscher wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Olaf Schmidt-Wischhöfer wrote: > > I agree that integration within our projects is important. And I > > believe it has suffered lately as the cohesion inside KDE became > > less. My gut feeling is that this should go in the mission. > > > > > I would suggest a sentence like the following: > > > “KDE aims to offer complete, well-integrated solutions – while > > > connecting different platforms, devices and online services.” > > > > That sounds good to me. > > To me too, but I still miss the reference that it is about software > with graphical user interfaces (GUI's can also have gesture or voice > input etc.), which Olaf seems to imply too. > I mean, we are not targetting e.g. sensor networks built from 8bit uCs > communicating to some big online server, with no user intervention > (which would fit that description too), or are we ? Please don't speak for me. You've made it absolutely clear that _you_ are only interested in GUI. That's totally fine. We need people who focus on (G)UI applications. But we also need people who focus on non- GUI-stuff. A large part of Frameworks 5 is non-GUI-stuff. Akonadi (and its spin-off) is non-GUI stuff. Therefore, I'm against a-priori excluding anybody who is not interested in (G)UI applications from KDE by restricting ourselves in our vision to (G)UI applications. Of course, the mission statement can mention that we _mostly_ (but not entirely) focus on (G)UI applications and supporting libraries and services. Regards, Ingo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
[kde-community] Community vision and product vision
Hi everyone, as Lydia already wrote in her email announcing the second draft for a KDE community vision, I'd like to talk a bit about community vs. product vision. From reading the discussion about the "inclusive vs. focused" vision drafts and talking to members of the "focused vision group" in private, I learned that the two groups seem to be actually looking for different things in a KDE vision: One group wants to define what goal the KDE _community_ as a whole is moving towards, whereas the other seems to be more interested in giving our _products_ more of a common direction. Both of these are valid, useful goals. Given that the "focused group" had all the elements from the draft Lydia just presented in their draft at some point, too, it appears to me that we largely agree on that vision for how we want the future to be. Therefore, if we can agree on a vision for the community in that direction, we have defined _why_ we're doing what we're doing. This does _not_ satisfy the need (which at least those who drafted the "focused vision" see, and they're likely not alone in that) for a common vision for _the products_ that we do, however. Now the thing is: As many of you surely already know, I'm a big fan of product visions. Whenever I start working with a community within KDE, the first thing I ask is "Do we have a product vision yet?", and if the answer is "no", then I help them create one for their specific product. However, when members of the KDE Usability team (and later the VDG) tried to encourage the community to create a common product vision for all of KDE's products in the past, we were faced with the argument that looking for a such a vision would be pointless, since it would either not fit every project in KDE, or if it did, it would be too vague to be useful. Now I still see the wish for a common product direction as valid, but I do see now that we _already_ have such a diverse product portfolio (even if you only count Qt-based GUI applications!) that defining a vision that every single one of them could follow is likely too difficult. My suggestion, therefore, is: Why don't those who are looking for a common product direction band together and create one, which however is not "mandatory" for all of KDE. Instead, any project that adheres to this common product vision could publicly commit to it, and the suite made up of all of these products could even create their own _product brand_ (within KDE as the community brand) to reflect that. That way, we can have a collective product brand with a collective product vision without having to exclude any project which follows the same _community vision_ out of KDE. To me, this sounds like a win/win situation for all of us. What do you think? Cheers, Thomas ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
[kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - second draft for discussion
Hi everyone, A bit less than two weeks ago we sent the first draft for the community vision for KDE. We have gotten a lot of useful feedback and have now put this into a second draft. It reads as follows: "KDE creates technology for a world in which everyone has freedom, privacy and control over their digital life." If there is anything that you disagree with about that vision, please speak up. Otherwise, expressing your agreement is helpful as well! There seems to be significant agreement on the principles encoded in this vision. Therefore I'd like us to give this a final polish now and if needed go for a third draft (which then should be the last one to not stall this forever). This is a draft for a vision for what kind of world the community aims for, it's not a product vision. As there still seems to be disagreement on the product vision, Thomas will address that in a separate email. Cheers Lydia, Sebas, Thomas, Riccardo and Valorie -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher KDE e.V. Board of Directors / KDE Community Working Group http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 2:31:09 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > Ok. > I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the vision, > or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission combined. > > What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the > products created by the KDE community. > > How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically doing > ? It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not > the core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too > generic. (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a > graphical way.) Hi Alex, I'm the maintainer of the application which makes your products visible on the screen. So to say my application is "THE GUI". I'm the one telling you over and over again that I don't want KDE to focus on GUI, to not have that written into the vision. Maybe you could start thinking about that. What does it mean if THE GUI maintainer doesn't want that? Maybe he has a better look on it with THE GUI knowledge? Please don't completely dismiss my feedback. Think about it. Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Feb 15, 2016 5:55 AM, "Sebastian Kügler" wrote:
>
> On Monday, February 15, 2016 05:51:57 AM A. Spehr wrote:
> > "World domination through free software."
> >
> > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but
that
> > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night,
while
> > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys?
>
> Me.
>
> The "world domination" moniker was always a tongue-in-cheek joke. We don't
> want to actually rule the world, we don't want anyone to rule the world.
We do
> want a world in which Freedom and empowered people dominate and access to
> knowledge is a given, rather than centralized control and monopolistic
power
> structures.
True, but it is catchy! Suggestions for a different catchy way to phrase it?
We do want everybody to be able to access our technology.
("Make tools to access the world with free software."???)
Alex Spehr
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Monday, February 15, 2016 05:51:57 AM A. Spehr wrote: > "World domination through free software." > > Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but that > was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, while > half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? Me. The "world domination" moniker was always a tongue-in-cheek joke. We don't want to actually rule the world, we don't want anyone to rule the world. We do want a world in which Freedom and empowered people dominate and access to knowledge is a given, rather than centralized control and monopolistic power structures. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
On Feb 15, 2016 5:30 AM, "Alexander Neundorf" wrote: > On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > > On Monday 08 February 2016 17:07:26 Alexander Dymo wrote: > ... > > > Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor > > > attractiveness to KDE as a project. [???] > > Well, that's debatable (and I disagree with it), but I hope you agree > > that not defining it in writing as the goal of KDE can only reduce KDE's > > attractiveness (because some potential contributors might fail to see > > our goal and decide to join another community). > > > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as > > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, > > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the > > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software > > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. > > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission. "World domination through free software." Maybe that's too flippant, or more the vision of Linux and not KDE, but that was my first thought as I glanced at this in the middle of the night, while half asleep. Who doesn't want to take over the world with cool toys? > How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically doing ? > It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not the > core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too generic. > (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a graphical way.) "GUI Interfacing"? Alex Spehr ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - an alternative draft for discussion
Hi Ingo, On Saturday, February 13, 2016 21:35:22 Ingo Klöcker wrote: > On Monday 08 February 2016 17:07:26 Alexander Dymo wrote: ... > > Defining it in writing as the goal of KDE adds neither value nor > > attractiveness to KDE as a project. > > Well, that's debatable (and I disagree with it), but I hope you agree > that not defining it in writing as the goal of KDE can only reduce KDE's > attractiveness (because some potential contributors might fail to see > our goal and decide to join another community). Well, in general it probably doesn't hurt. But OTOH it doesn't add much either over the manifesto. I mean, we could extend the manifesto with some statement regarding privacy. But it is possible that those who would like to see some more technical direction may actually be disappointed if the next thing KDE produces is again not talking about technical direction or products. > I think your concern is that the vision does not function as > differentiation from other free software communities. That's correct, > but setting KDE apart from other free software communities is not the > purpose of the vision. What differentiates us from other free software > communities is not our goal, but the way we want to reach (resp. > approach) this goal. And this way should be spelled out in the mission. Ok. I doubt anybody wants to fight about the definition, whether its the vision, or the mission, or the product vision, or vision+mission combined. What our group wants to have, is getting some more attention back to the products created by the KDE community. How do we call the stuff which is what most KDE software is typically doing ? It's not CLI, it's not braille, voice output (while great) is also not the core of KDE, it's not machine interfaces, "Free Software" is just too generic. (I'd call it GUI, since the computer presents information in a graphical way.) Alex ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Distribution outreach program: Where do we go from here?
> As I regularly complain: count me in ;-) Me as well. Cheers, Ivan ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On Monday, February 15, 2016 9:06:48 AM CET Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > On 15 February 2016 at 07:54, Martin Graesslin wrote: > > On Sunday, February 14, 2016 11:57:56 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: > >> > I agree that integration within our projects is important. And I > >> > believe it has suffered lately as the cohesion inside KDE became less. > >> > My gut feeling is that this should go in the mission. > >> > > >> > > I would suggest a sentence like the following: > >> > > “KDE aims to offer complete, well-integrated solutions – while > >> > > connecting > >> > > different platforms, devices and online services.” > >> > > >> > That sounds good to me. > >> > >> To me too, but I still miss the reference that it is about software with > >> graphical user interfaces (GUI's can also have gesture or voice input > >> etc.), which Olaf seems to imply too. > > > > I can only repeat my advice: please don't close doors for KDE by focusing > > on GUI. There is a world beyond GUI and KDE partially already entered it. > > Don't close it. > > Maybe GUI -> UI would solve that. Or "primary focus is the UI". Would be much better. It at least doesn't exclude things like speech recognition. Nevertheless I would still suggest that we elaborate where KDE might be going and whether that fits under UI. Especially under consideration what we already do. Using a simple example: today I created a GSoC project idea which is a docker container for KWin to be useable as a Plasma mobile emulator and also cloud. Is that UI? I don't know. It would render somwhere, but is that enough to consider it as a UI? Or is in that case KWin just a piece of server software without any UI (e.g. access through VNC/rdesktop/html5 with no direct interaction in KWin)? Cheers Martin signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Distribution outreach program: Where do we go
Hi Jonathan, > Right, from the KDE neon FAQ: Unfortunately, FAQ is not enough, this is something that we will have to repeat over and over again. There will be some trolls who will post that this is 'the kde distro', and some people will believe him, and spread the word (because, nowadays, every comment on the net is a 'credible source' :/). I don't see how it surprises anyone that most people, when they see a statement online, that they do not go fact-checking, but consider it to be the truth. My favourite example was that so many people claimed that the new millennium starts on Jan 1st 2000 citing Bill Clinton (former POTUS) saying it on TV. > better looking at weekly Plasma ISOs > (http://files.kde.org/snapshots/), Plasma Wayland ISOs > (http://files.kde.org/snapshots/), Plasma mobile images > (http://kubuntu.plasma-mobile.org/) and Plasma Active images > (https://files.kde.org/plasma/active/). > > Weirdly nobody ever complained about these or wrote articles saying > they were a terrible idea. Not really true, since there have been complaints about Plasma Netbook ISO and Plasma Active IIRC. Cheers, Ivan ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
Re: [kde-community] Fwd: KDE Vision – towards “wholesame” solutions
On 15 February 2016 at 07:54, Martin Graesslin wrote: > On Sunday, February 14, 2016 11:57:56 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote: >> > I agree that integration within our projects is important. And I >> > believe it has suffered lately as the cohesion inside KDE became less. >> > My gut feeling is that this should go in the mission. >> > >> > > I would suggest a sentence like the following: >> > > “KDE aims to offer complete, well-integrated solutions – while >> > > connecting >> > > different platforms, devices and online services.” >> > >> > That sounds good to me. >> >> To me too, but I still miss the reference that it is about software with >> graphical user interfaces (GUI's can also have gesture or voice input etc.), >> which Olaf seems to imply too. > > I can only repeat my advice: please don't close doors for KDE by focusing on > GUI. There is a world beyond GUI and KDE partially already entered it. Don't > close it. Maybe GUI -> UI would solve that. Or "primary focus is the UI". Indeed we don't need to say "GUI" too much, that's similar case as with Qt - many outsiders relate it to "just" the GUI stuff, what, depending on the reason, isn't correct or honest. (/me as developer of KDb, non-GUI stuff, since 2004) >> I mean, we are not targetting e.g. sensor networks built from 8bit uCs >> communicating to some big online server, with no user intervention (which >> would fit that description too), or are we ? > > Please ask yourself the following question: what if a project inside KDE > started to do it? What would happen with the project? Would they stay in or > would they leave KDE? > > I understand that you want to draw a line to define what KDE is. The danger > here is that this will always only work to exclude things. Drawing the line is > not easy. Just right now in your last mail you redefined GUI to include speech > recognition so that the line would cover that. Dangerous, just dangerous. By > leaving so much open for interpretation your drawing a line doesn't work. > > So go from the other side. Look at where KDE might be going with it's own > projects and everything where it might go must be inside the line. And then > you realize that the line doesn't make much sense. > > If you draw the line to exclude you must be willing to kick projects out, > otherwise it doesn't make sense. If you don't kick them out and keep the line > to exclude projects coming in you create a two class society, a project > hostile to incorporating new projects. > > Both are things I don't want KDE to be. I don't want my projects being kicked > out because they might not do GUI. Neither do I want to be part of a community > which is excluding projects which do not fit, although KDE itself has projects > which fit. > > Thus: don't mention GUI in the vision. > > Cheers > Martin > ___ > kde-community mailing list > kde-community@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ kde-community mailing list kde-community@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-community
