Re: Twitter access
On sábado, 11 de agosto de 2018 23:22:59 (CEST) Jonathan Riddell wrote: > I had asked the CWG the following: I will answer as concisely and directly as I can, ok? > Who are the higher-ups I've been told control access to KDE social > media accounts, There are no "higher-ups". Quite the contrary. The same way a caretaker in a school is not allowed to give the keys to the building to the students, but is ultimately at the service of the users (i.e. the students), the employees of Promo cannot hand out the passwords to KDE's social media accounts. That would be, indeed, a fireable offence. And, the same way the caretaker is not the owner of the school or use it at their pleasure, Ivana and I cannot abuse the social media accounts at our pleasure. We only use the accounts at the pleasure of the community. Anything else would again be a fireable offence. > how did they get their position, how are they > accountable to KDE as a whole and how do they decide who can > contribute to KDE's promo? You are conflating to different things. "Contributing to Promo" != "having the passwords to social media accounts". > Is it desired I have access to two of KDE's social media accounts but > not more or should I be removed from the accounts I do have access to? Again, you are confusing two different things. "Having passwords" != "Have access to social media accounts". Indeed, everybody has access to the social media accounts, just that said access is regulated by a procedure. Come to promo, say what you want to post, we'll figure out together the best way to formulate it, chose the best slot for maximum impact, and one of the... uh... caretakers will post it. > Is there a general blockage Nobody is blocked from social media as I explained above. So, no, there is no blockage. Period. > on community members being full members of > KDE promo I'm not sure what you mean by "full member". Promo is not club. We have contributors, like all the other KDE work groups. > or is it just a limitation for me? No, because there is no limitation. There is a procedure in place, which is different. I think that you will find that said procedure is similar in spirit to the way project leaders curate patches sent by contributors for their code. > The only answer I got was about how feeling amongst wider Linux users > was good for Plasma these days and therefor the promo team must be the > right setup, which confuses correlation and causation. Yes, I agree gauging the effect of promotion is tricky. It is something I fret about all the time. However, if you change one thing in a system, and suddenly the system works better, you would be excused if you thought that maybe the cause of the improvement were due to the change. If you boost that change and things improve further, then your hypothesis becomes more solid. A lot of correct postulations have been made in science based on observation, although the underlying mechanisms are (or were) poorly understood. Darwin based his theory of evolution on pure observation, as did Pasteur when postulating that infections were produced by invisible microbes. What I am saying is I am not sure what point you are trying to make by waving around that old trope. > I understood > the CWG would take no further interest and it was surprising to see > Valorie considered it an open issue today. Any other feedback I've > had on the issue is just patronising comments about the need for > review as if I was not aware of the process over the last 15 years. I > had hoped to get back into promo having stepped back from being > hassled last year. What happened last year? > But as all of KDE except a few I have spoken to > privately are happy with the current promo set up I have just stopped > my involvement and will move on to other places I still think this is a mistake. > where I can take a > full part. Stuff I did which KDE may want to try to fill includes > FOSDEM stalls, Embedded Linux Conf stall, Planet KDE, promo for Plasma > releases beyond the announcement, articles during Akademy week, other > random stuff as I felt the need. There is no question of your merits, which is why I have insisted time and time again you re-join Promo. Here's an idea: we are both here in Vienna. Wouldn't it be better if we talked about this over a coffee or something? Cheers Paul -- Promotion & Communication www: http://kde.org Mastodon: https://mastodon.technology/@kde Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Twitter access
I had asked the CWG the following: Who are the higher-ups I've been told control access to KDE social media accounts, how did they get their position, how are they accountable to KDE as a whole and how do they decide who can contribute to KDE's promo? Is it desired I have access to two of KDE's social media accounts but not more or should I be removed from the accounts I do have access to? Is there a general blockage on community members being full members of KDE promo or is it just a limitation for me? The only answer I got was about how feeling amongst wider Linux users was good for Plasma these days and therefor the promo team must be the right setup, which confuses correlation and causation. I understood the CWG would take no further interest and it was surprising to see Valorie considered it an open issue today. Any other feedback I've had on the issue is just patronising comments about the need for review as if I was not aware of the process over the last 15 years. I had hoped to get back into promo having stepped back from being hassled last year. But as all of KDE except a few I have spoken to privately are happy with the current promo set up I have just stopped my involvement and will move on to other places where I can take a full part. Stuff I did which KDE may want to try to fill includes FOSDEM stalls, Embedded Linux Conf stall, Planet KDE, promo for Plasma releases beyond the announcement, articles during Akademy week, other random stuff as I felt the need. Jonathan On 11 August 2018 at 20:59, Paul Brown wrote: > On sábado, 11 de agosto de 2018 20:39:51 (CEST) Jonathan Riddell wrote: >> Everyone seems fine for Promo to be run in an opaque way with >> community members unable to take a full part. > > What do you think is opaque, Jonathan? It would help us if you could give us > concrete examples so we could change anything that isn't working. > >> That makes it >> uninteresting as a volunteer activity for me so I stopped doing promo >> again. The promo team is very welcome to work with me on Plasma >> releases, > > This is good news. > >> although they've had a very poor record of doing this in the >> past. > > I recall things differently, than again, we have worked with several projects, > (such as Kdenlive, Krita, etc.) on their releases and things have worked well. > I may be mixing things up. The thing is, if we can make it work for them, we > can sure make it work for Plasma. > > As with other projects, for which we have representatives connected to the > Promo channels all day, every day, I would again like to invite you to rejoin > Promo actively so we can all work together openly on what's best for Plasma. > > Cheers > > Paul > > > >> >> Jonathan >> >> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 01:16:44AM -0700, Valorie Zimmerman wrote: >> > Sorry to speak up so late in this process; however I need to make an >> > Akademy report. >> > >> > Jon, have you worked out with the Promo team how best to coordinate >> > release promo in the future? If not, is there someone else in the >> > Plasma release team who will be taking over this duty? >> > >> > I would appreciate a response today. >> > >> > Valorie >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Andy B wrote: >> > > On July 19, 2018 at 9:26:03 AM, David Narvaez >> > > (david.narv...@computer.org) >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Riddell > wrote: >> > >> I did but I see nobody has an interest in me being a full part of it >> > > >> > > That's simply not true: we have all seen Paul Brown's message where >> > > you are invited to participate in the promo team. What you mean to say >> > > is that you are not allowed to be part of the promo team under your >> > > own rules and conditions, but when you put it like that you do not >> > > sound much like a victim and you lose some negotiation power. >> > > >> > > While I personally have no position regarding your one-man charge >> > > against the promo team (I do not have enough information to pick a >> > > side here), I am very much against your theatrical portrayal of the >> > > issue when we can all clearly see what is going on here. If you want >> > > to do promo under your own terms like back in the ol' days 15 years >> > > ago, then just say so, no need to play victim. >> > > >> > > David E. Narvaez >> > > >> > > Before we are too flustered by this interaction, let’s see what we can >> > > do >> > > now. Jon, does the team need to post anything to our twitter account? Is >> > > there something that needs to be out soon? > > > -- > Promotion & Communication > > www: http://kde.org > Mastodon: https://mastodon.technology/@kde > Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/ > Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity >
Re: Twitter access
On sábado, 11 de agosto de 2018 20:39:51 (CEST) Jonathan Riddell wrote: > Everyone seems fine for Promo to be run in an opaque way with > community members unable to take a full part. What do you think is opaque, Jonathan? It would help us if you could give us concrete examples so we could change anything that isn't working. > That makes it > uninteresting as a volunteer activity for me so I stopped doing promo > again. The promo team is very welcome to work with me on Plasma > releases, This is good news. > although they've had a very poor record of doing this in the > past. I recall things differently, than again, we have worked with several projects, (such as Kdenlive, Krita, etc.) on their releases and things have worked well. I may be mixing things up. The thing is, if we can make it work for them, we can sure make it work for Plasma. As with other projects, for which we have representatives connected to the Promo channels all day, every day, I would again like to invite you to rejoin Promo actively so we can all work together openly on what's best for Plasma. Cheers Paul > > Jonathan > > On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 01:16:44AM -0700, Valorie Zimmerman wrote: > > Sorry to speak up so late in this process; however I need to make an > > Akademy report. > > > > Jon, have you worked out with the Promo team how best to coordinate > > release promo in the future? If not, is there someone else in the > > Plasma release team who will be taking over this duty? > > > > I would appreciate a response today. > > > > Valorie > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Andy B wrote: > > > On July 19, 2018 at 9:26:03 AM, David Narvaez > > > (david.narv...@computer.org) > > > wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Riddell wrote: > > >> I did but I see nobody has an interest in me being a full part of it > > > > > > That's simply not true: we have all seen Paul Brown's message where > > > you are invited to participate in the promo team. What you mean to say > > > is that you are not allowed to be part of the promo team under your > > > own rules and conditions, but when you put it like that you do not > > > sound much like a victim and you lose some negotiation power. > > > > > > While I personally have no position regarding your one-man charge > > > against the promo team (I do not have enough information to pick a > > > side here), I am very much against your theatrical portrayal of the > > > issue when we can all clearly see what is going on here. If you want > > > to do promo under your own terms like back in the ol' days 15 years > > > ago, then just say so, no need to play victim. > > > > > > David E. Narvaez > > > > > > Before we are too flustered by this interaction, let’s see what we can > > > do > > > now. Jon, does the team need to post anything to our twitter account? Is > > > there something that needs to be out soon? -- Promotion & Communication www: http://kde.org Mastodon: https://mastodon.technology/@kde Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Twitter access
Everyone seems fine for Promo to be run in an opaque way with community members unable to take a full part. That makes it uninteresting as a volunteer activity for me so I stopped doing promo again. The promo team is very welcome to work with me on Plasma releases, although they've had a very poor record of doing this in the past. Jonathan On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 01:16:44AM -0700, Valorie Zimmerman wrote: > Sorry to speak up so late in this process; however I need to make an > Akademy report. > > Jon, have you worked out with the Promo team how best to coordinate > release promo in the future? If not, is there someone else in the > Plasma release team who will be taking over this duty? > > I would appreciate a response today. > > Valorie > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Andy B wrote: > > > > On July 19, 2018 at 9:26:03 AM, David Narvaez (david.narv...@computer.org) > > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Riddell > > wrote: > >> I did but I see nobody has an interest in me being a full part of it > > > > That's simply not true: we have all seen Paul Brown's message where > > you are invited to participate in the promo team. What you mean to say > > is that you are not allowed to be part of the promo team under your > > own rules and conditions, but when you put it like that you do not > > sound much like a victim and you lose some negotiation power. > > > > While I personally have no position regarding your one-man charge > > against the promo team (I do not have enough information to pick a > > side here), I am very much against your theatrical portrayal of the > > issue when we can all clearly see what is going on here. If you want > > to do promo under your own terms like back in the ol' days 15 years > > ago, then just say so, no need to play victim. > > > > David E. Narvaez > > > > Before we are too flustered by this interaction, let’s see what we can do > > now. Jon, does the team need to post anything to our twitter account? Is > > there something that needs to be out soon? > > -- > http://about.me/valoriez
Public report of the Community Working Group
Just presented at Akademy with no slides, so here are my notes: * Case: conflict between Plasma release manager and Promo team in public (KDE Community list) Outcome: Open * Case: VDG <> KWin maintainer in public (KDE Community list, https://phabricator.kde.org/T8707) Outcome: some soul-searching on all sides - Tomaz spoke/listened to some people * Case: rudeness by maintainer in Bug Report 387931 Outcome: Open * Case: death of Marko Käning, former KDE devel Outcome: Sysadmin disabled the account * Case: future of KDE chat solutions Outcome: lots of discussion, mostly friendly. Work is ongoing Respectfully submitted, Valorie Zimmerman for the CWG
Re: Improving our integration with KDE application teams, and supporting companies
On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Gilles Caulier wrote: > > 2018-08-11 12:34 GMT+02:00 Valorie Zimmerman : >> >> Hello folks, I've recently spent a week with Boud and Irina Rempt at >> their invitation. I hope that this sort of generous hospitality >> becomes the norm in our our KDE family. While there, we had many >> conversations about the past, present and future of KDE. I was >> surprised to learn that during the life of KO, Boud's previous company >> with Inga Wallin and now with his small company which supports Krita, >> he encountered quite a bit of opposition *in the KDE community*! > > > Hi Valorie, > > What do you mean exactly by "opposition" ? > > Best > > Gilles Caulier Opposition in the form not of "this is how I think you could do this better" but "what a horrible idea to pay people to support KDE software for MONEY!" and "What, another foundation? And to pay developers? Terrible thing." I was shocked to hear that such thoughts were expressed to the very people doing the work to support KDE in a professional way. In addition there is the widespread opinion that amateurs are better than professionals for KDE, and that if there are professionals working on software, that the volunteers will leave. In fact, this idea seems widespread in the FOSS world. From what I have seen, professionals can *increase* volunteer contributions, by laying the groundwork for successful onboarding, by paying attention to details which volunteers left undone or did improperly, by doing work that no volunteers have the skills or interest in doing, in ensuring that documentation is up-to-date, by thinking of tasks such as training sessions for bug-triage, documentation writing, packaging, testing days and so forth. Valorie -- http://about.me/valoriez
Re: Improving our integration with KDE application teams, and supporting companies
2018-08-11 12:34 GMT+02:00 Valorie Zimmerman : > Hello folks, I've recently spent a week with Boud and Irina Rempt at > their invitation. I hope that this sort of generous hospitality > becomes the norm in our our KDE family. While there, we had many > conversations about the past, present and future of KDE. I was > surprised to learn that during the life of KO, Boud's previous company > with Inga Wallin and now with his small company which supports Krita, > he encountered quite a bit of opposition *in the KDE community*! > Hi Valorie, What do you mean exactly by "opposition" ? Best Gilles Caulier
Improving our integration with KDE application teams, and supporting companies
Hello folks, I've recently spent a week with Boud and Irina Rempt at their invitation. I hope that this sort of generous hospitality becomes the norm in our our KDE family. While there, we had many conversations about the past, present and future of KDE. I was surprised to learn that during the life of KO, Boud's previous company with Inga Wallin and now with his small company which supports Krita, he encountered quite a bit of opposition *in the KDE community*! I've long been puzzled why KDE applications seem to be relegated to the "second circle" of KDE, and companies supporting KDE software even further out. Not just puzzled, but somewhat discouraged, to be honest. When I consider the future of a healthy KDE, I see many small companies popping up, offering commercial support and specialized applications to users. Far too often I see our great young programmers work within KDE for a few years, but when they find a job "outside" then pair up and perhaps have children, they are only involved tangentially. In a healthy ecosystem, there would numerous KDE affiliated companies competing to hire them, and they would stay involved as long as they wanted, while supporting themselves. Am I the only one who thinks of our future in this way? I think it's great that we are improving ties with "outside" companies and groups, and fully support that. But *inside* KDE we should be starting companies and foundations who can collect donations to support KDE programmers. I would like to know the thoughts of others and how we can best encourage this. Please let's talk about this during Akademy. Valorie -- http://about.me/valoriez
Re: Twitter access
Sorry to speak up so late in this process; however I need to make an Akademy report. Jon, have you worked out with the Promo team how best to coordinate release promo in the future? If not, is there someone else in the Plasma release team who will be taking over this duty? I would appreciate a response today. Valorie On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Andy B wrote: > > On July 19, 2018 at 9:26:03 AM, David Narvaez (david.narv...@computer.org) > wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Jonathan Riddell wrote: >> I did but I see nobody has an interest in me being a full part of it > > That's simply not true: we have all seen Paul Brown's message where > you are invited to participate in the promo team. What you mean to say > is that you are not allowed to be part of the promo team under your > own rules and conditions, but when you put it like that you do not > sound much like a victim and you lose some negotiation power. > > While I personally have no position regarding your one-man charge > against the promo team (I do not have enough information to pick a > side here), I am very much against your theatrical portrayal of the > issue when we can all clearly see what is going on here. If you want > to do promo under your own terms like back in the ol' days 15 years > ago, then just say so, no need to play victim. > > David E. Narvaez > > Before we are too flustered by this interaction, let’s see what we can do > now. Jon, does the team need to post anything to our twitter account? Is > there something that needs to be out soon? -- http://about.me/valoriez
