Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Cornelius Schumacher]

On Wednesday, 22 July 2020 09:53:58 CEST Uli Klinkhammer wrote:
> 
> So, do we need those use cases and rights? Or is it better maybe, like
> Martin said, to speak with people violating our rights? (that are
> naturally given by using those names) Or is registering a domain name
> for every application an alternative?

We have the rights on the names of our applications, also without 
corresponding domain names, so there is probably no need to register 
additional domains. Keeps things more simple :-)

Speaking to people who we consider to violate our rights is always a good 
idea. We would need to do that anyway and it's often enough to resolve these 
kind of issues without the need to take formal legal steps. This should be a 
last resort.

In any case it helps if we can point people to a written policy which makes it 
clear how we expect our trademarks to be used, what we consider to be 
acceptable and what not.

-- 
Cornelius Schumacher 

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Cornelius Schumacher]

On Monday, 20 July 2020 12:55:25 CEST Albert Vaca Cintora wrote:
> 
> I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our software
> on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages distributing our
> software on Linux distros.

Yes. The copyright licenses allow distribution of our software. We support 
that. We do want to have a community of distributors who are getting our 
software to end users. The trademark should not get in the way here. So our 
trademark policy should be open and allow and support these cases.

What we don't want is confusion about where the software is coming from. It 
should be clear if something is coming from us or from a third party. In the 
case of Linux distributors this is very clear, there is no issue there. In the 
case of mobile apps that can be more problematic because there is less 
transparency there. That's something we probably should clarify in a trademark 
policy.

-- 
Cornelius Schumacher 

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Michael Reeves]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 4:01 AM Ben Cooksley  wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 7:16 AM Albert Vaca Cintora
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > > But if there are situations where third parties are living off our
> good name,
> > > we should fight this. We already have the rights to do so.
> >
> > Should we? Isn't that the same that RedHat, SUSE, Canonical, etc. do?
> What's wrong with charging for our apps as a distributor?
>
> There isn't anything wrong with charging for our applications as a
> distributor.
>
> The potential problem arises if they portray themselves as an
> 'official' version, which is a label only we can provide.
> It is especially problematic if the binary they've packaged contains
> malware or other alterations that have a negative impact on the user
> experience, which users will attribute to us, not the distributor of
> the software.
>
> The situation with Redhat/SUSE/Canonical is also slightly different,
> as we already have an established relationship with all three of
> those. This includes them receiving early access to our releases along
> with them being subscribed to our security pre-announce service.
>
> In this case, the vendor in question has not made contact in any form with
> us.
>

Just quick note the version of kdiff3 on the windows store carries the old
icon. This seems to imply it was made before kdiff3 joined kde. Like during
the 4 year lapse of maintainership. Let's make sure we have all the facts
here.

>
> Cheers,
> Ben
>

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Ben Cooksley]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 9:28 AM Filipe Saraiva  wrote:
>
> Em 20/07/2020 07:55, Albert Vaca Cintora escreveu:
> >
> > I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our
> > software on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages
> > distributing our software on Linux distros.
> >
>
> The problem is not people packing and distributing our software,
> including selling them.
>
> The problem is people using the original name of our software in an
> environment where we could for ourselves pack and distribute them. If I
> am not wrong, apps stores don't allow a same software using a same name
> but distributed by different "owners".

This depends on the store in question.

The Microsoft Store does not require that software be named uniquely
from my understanding.

Apple also does not have that requirement, but they do require that
applications have a unique identifier (which are constructed in the
form of reverse dns names, which would be org.kde.$applicationname for
most of our applications)

I believe Android works similarly to Apple, using a unique reverse dns
name to identify an application (and tying ownership of that name to a
specific certificate rather than an account on their services)

>
> If it is the case, we will be in a scenario where we can not use the
> original name of our software to distribute them.
>
> It is a very different scenario of a Linux distro repository where we
> are not going to pack our software and compete to distro packagers.
>
> --
> Filipe Saraiva
> http://filipesaraiva.info/
>

Cheers,
Ben

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Ben Cooksley]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 7:16 AM Albert Vaca Cintora
 wrote:
>
>
> > But if there are situations where third parties are living off our good 
> > name,
> > we should fight this. We already have the rights to do so.
>
> Should we? Isn't that the same that RedHat, SUSE, Canonical, etc. do? What's 
> wrong with charging for our apps as a distributor?

There isn't anything wrong with charging for our applications as a distributor.

The potential problem arises if they portray themselves as an
'official' version, which is a label only we can provide.
It is especially problematic if the binary they've packaged contains
malware or other alterations that have a negative impact on the user
experience, which users will attribute to us, not the distributor of
the software.

The situation with Redhat/SUSE/Canonical is also slightly different,
as we already have an established relationship with all three of
those. This includes them receiving early access to our releases along
with them being subscribed to our security pre-announce service.

In this case, the vendor in question has not made contact in any form with us.

>
> We can, under the GPL, enforce that any fixes made to apps (eg: so they work 
> better on Windows) get back upstream, but that's it.
>
> If our apps were trademarked, why is the person doing the Windows packages 
> not allowed to use the app name, but the person doing the Debian packages is? 
> In what they differ? Do we want to become IceWeasel?
>
> I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our software 
> on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages distributing our 
> software on Linux distros.
>
>

Cheers,
Ben

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Uli Klinkhammer]

On 2020-07-21 23:27, Filipe Saraiva wrote:

Em 20/07/2020 07:55, Albert Vaca Cintora escreveu:

I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our
software on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages
distributing our software on Linux distros.


The problem is not people packing and distributing our software,
including selling them.

The problem is people using the original name of our software in an
environment where we could for ourselves pack and distribute them. If I
am not wrong, apps stores don't allow a same software using a same name
but distributed by different "owners".


If we talk about Trademarks and Policies, we talk about rights.

A right of using a name appears in that moment, when someone begins 
using it. This is the natural right and does not need any registration. 
A registration of the right can be done in several ways: Registering a 
trademark, a company name, a domain name, all of this gives you a right 
to use this name.


When we talk about a Trademark we need some kind of policy, this is 
right. :)


This policy is a group of use cases, which restricts a free world by 
rights.


So, do we need those use cases and rights? Or is it better maybe, like 
Martin said, to speak with people violating our rights? (that are 
naturally given by using those names) Or is registering a domain name 
for every application an alternative?


I could provide those domain names, for free, if it is wanted.

Best wishes,

Uli

(KDE Supporter)




If it is the case, we will be in a scenario where we can not use the
original name of our software to distribute them.

It is a very different scenario of a Linux distro repository where we
are not going to pack our software and compete to distro packagers.


--
KONTENT GmbH
Geschäftsführung
Winkelhauser Str. 63
47228 Duisburg
Deutschland

https://kontent.com

Fon: +49 203 3094-300
Fax: +49 203 3094-310

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UID: DE 2107 83977

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Martin Steigerwald]

Dear Filipe, dear KDE community,

Filipe Saraiva - 21.07.20, 23:27:52 CEST:
> Em 20/07/2020 07:55, Albert Vaca Cintora escreveu:
> > I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our
> > software on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages
> > distributing our software on Linux distros.
> 
> The problem is not people packing and distributing our software,
> including selling them.
> 
> The problem is people using the original name of our software in an
> environment where we could for ourselves pack and distribute them. If
> I am not wrong, apps stores don't allow a same software using a same
> name but distributed by different "owners".
> 
> If it is the case, we will be in a scenario where we can not use the
> original name of our software to distribute them.
> 
> It is a very different scenario of a Linux distro repository where we
> are not going to pack our software and compete to distro packagers.

Just a question that occurred to me several times as I read new mails in 
this thread:

Has anyone ever tried to talk to the packager of those applications in 
Microsoft Store?

Maybe it can be as easy as telling him "hey, thank you for packaging 
some of our applications, however, we like to do it officially, would you 
consider using a different name, or well even better help us?" or 
something like that?

*Before* setting up any kind of policy as long as there is just one 
person doing this… or are there more?

Being a slight bit ironic here: Could it be that talking to the person 
who creates those packages would actually help to resolve the issues at 
hand? Is this even a possibility?

If it happens repeatedly with other persons as well and on other stores… 
there is still an opportunity to think about an policy… I'd say.

There is a book "Anleitung zum Unglücklichsein" ("how to be unhappy") by 
Paul Watzlawick that I just remembered. In there a person has no hammer. 
But one of the neighbors of him has. But then the one without the hammer 
thinks things like "Oh, he is not going to give it to me anyway"… and 
things like that. Eventually he would go to his neighbor, ring the door, 
and as the neighbor opens tell him "I don't need your frigging hammer!".

Just something to consider.

In case you talked to the person who does those other packages on 
Windows Store already and I missed it… ignore what I wrote as much as 
you like. (Of course you are free to do this in any case.)

Best,
-- 
Martin

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Filipe Saraiva]

Em 20/07/2020 07:55, Albert Vaca Cintora escreveu:
> 
> I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our
> software on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages
> distributing our software on Linux distros.
> 

The problem is not people packing and distributing our software,
including selling them.

The problem is people using the original name of our software in an
environment where we could for ourselves pack and distribute them. If I
am not wrong, apps stores don't allow a same software using a same name
but distributed by different "owners".

If it is the case, we will be in a scenario where we can not use the
original name of our software to distribute them.

It is a very different scenario of a Linux distro repository where we
are not going to pack our software and compete to distro packagers.

-- 
Filipe Saraiva
http://filipesaraiva.info/



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Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Albert Vaca Cintora]

> But if there are situations where third parties are living off our good
name,
> we should fight this. We already have the rights to do so.

Should we? Isn't that the same that RedHat, SUSE, Canonical, etc. do?
What's wrong with charging for our apps as a distributor?

We can, under the GPL, enforce that any fixes made to apps (eg: so they
work better on Windows) get back upstream, but that's it.

If our apps were trademarked, why is the person doing the Windows packages
not allowed to use the app name, but the person doing the Debian packages
is? In what they differ? Do we want to become IceWeasel?

I think we should be happy there are packagers that distribute our software
on Windows, the same way we are happy there are packages distributing our
software on Linux distros.

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Ingo Klöcker]

On Montag, 20. Juli 2020 01:17:20 CEST Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
> The most important thing, though, would be to formulate our trademark policy
> so we have a clear base to operate from for now and the future. We should
> look at the trademark policies of other projects and use them as
> inspiration and maybe something like a template.

We do have some kind of trademark policy already for the KDE logo. It's not 
listed at the KDE e.V. page under policies (where I looked first). I found it 
at the "KDE Clipart" page:
https://kde.org/stuff/clipart.php

It reads
"The KDE logo can be used freely as long as it is not used to refer to 
projects other than KDE itself. There is no formal procedure to use it. 
Copying of the KDE Logo is subject to the LGPL copyright license. Trading and 
branding with the KDE Logo is subject to our trademark licence. For more 
details on their usage please see the KDE CIG Logo page."

(The "KDE CIG Logo" page which the above refers to only explains when to use 
which logo style.)

Wikimedia Commons cites the above text as trademark license:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Klogo-official-crystal.svg

Regards,
Ingo


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Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Cornelius Schumacher]

On Sonntag, 12. Juli 2020 22:45:17 CEST Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> 
> My proposal would be to trademark all app names since they are all liable
> to be hijacked by third parties for whatever purposes.  It would mean
> adding a ™ symbol on web pages where we promote those apps.  They would be
> owned by KDE e.v.  Other apps like KOffice have done this in the past as I
> say.  However it seems nobody is very much in suppose of the idea so we'll
> just have to live with third parties living off our good names.

I think this needs some clarification.

First of all, a trademark is established by starting to use it. We own the 
trademarks of KDE application names, because we use them to designate our 
applications. Adding a TM symbol might have informational value, but is has no 
direct legal consequences. It's not necessary to trademark our apps by adding 
some symbol. We already have done that by giving them the names they have and 
using them as our marks.

The missing piece here is a trademark policy. We need to define how and under 
which circumstances our trademarks can be used. This is a balance act as we 
want them to be used widely, but we also need to defend them to prevent abuse. 
This is a bit tricky as trademark law is not made for openly used marks. 
Still, by defining clear conditions we can set out how we want them to be 
used.
.
One critical part of this trademark policy would be what "we" actually means. 
Who owns the trademarks? By default, the people who start using them, own 
them. In our case we want this to be owned by the community, so we need to 
establish a process to make KDE e.V. the owner of the KDE trademarks. In some 
cases, such as KOffice, this has happened in the past in a somewhat informal 
way, but to have clarity, it probably would be best to have a formal process.

Then, as an additional step, there is registration of trademarks. This 
actually makes a difference from a legal point of view. It makes the mark more 
defendable. It is some paperwork and costs some money, and it has done 
separately for different regions of the world. In short, it is significant 
effort.

We have done this for KDE as a general mark. We haven't done it for app names. 
Which is probably ok, because we do own the trademarks we use, also without 
registration.

So I don't think we should add the TM symbol everywhere. This would be quite 
some effort, and it might even be counter-productive if not done consistently.

But if there are situations where third parties are living off our good name, 
we should fight this. We already have the rights to do so.

The most important thing, though, would be to formulate our trademark policy 
so we have a clear base to operate from for now and the future. We should look 
at the trademark policies of other projects and use them as inspiration and 
maybe something like a template.

-- 
Cornelius Schumacher 

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Hörmetjan Yiltiz]

kdenlive is still falsely advertised by others, based on Duckduckgo results
(already reported to duckduckgo using their Report Ad button, but not sure
how many reports does it take to trigger an action from them). This may be
prevalent in other common search engines.
https://imgur.com/LSvIiOH
Best,
Hörmet




On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 6:04 AM Jonathan Riddell  wrote:

> That being said, to answer your actual question, I would treat this in
> several elements:
>
>>
>>1. Do we want to trademark the names of more KDE products (I say
>>"more" since "KDE" is already trademarked, so arguably at least one 
>> product
>>is already trademarked). I personally have no strong opinion, but I agree
>>that trademarking can discourage modification. There are ways to mitigate
>>that, including publishing a trademark policy, offering a contact point to
>>ask about the acceptability of changes, and facilitating renaming, for
>>example by adding a compilation option to set a different name. I would
>>also suggest committing to publish a list of all trademark enforcement
>>actions done, so those who consider modifying can get an idea of what will
>>actually be accepted or not.
>>
>>
>>1. If we do agree to trademark more names, which names? We tend to
>>have lots of names for lots of projects, many of which I suppose may take 
>> a
>>while to be sufficiently important to justify trademarking. I propose a
>>wiki page as a way to list candidates and poll developers about each
>>
>>
>>1. For those names we do trademark, how much should the ™ symbol be
>>used? I would not like seeing it everywhere, but I do not mind seeing it 
>> in
>>the About screen, for instance.
>>2. Who would own those trademarks?
>>
>>
> My proposal would be to trademark all app names since they are all liable
> to be hijacked by third parties for whatever purposes.  It would mean
> adding a ™ symbol on web pages where we promote those apps.  They would
> be owned by KDE e.v.  Other apps like KOffice have done this in the past as
> I say.  However it seems nobody is very much in suppose of the idea so
> we'll just have to live with third parties living off our good names.
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

That being said, to answer your actual question, I would treat this in
several elements:

>
>1. Do we want to trademark the names of more KDE products (I say
>"more" since "KDE" is already trademarked, so arguably at least one product
>is already trademarked). I personally have no strong opinion, but I agree
>that trademarking can discourage modification. There are ways to mitigate
>that, including publishing a trademark policy, offering a contact point to
>ask about the acceptability of changes, and facilitating renaming, for
>example by adding a compilation option to set a different name. I would
>also suggest committing to publish a list of all trademark enforcement
>actions done, so those who consider modifying can get an idea of what will
>actually be accepted or not.
>
>
>1. If we do agree to trademark more names, which names? We tend to
>have lots of names for lots of projects, many of which I suppose may take a
>while to be sufficiently important to justify trademarking. I propose a
>wiki page as a way to list candidates and poll developers about each
>
>
>1. For those names we do trademark, how much should the ™ symbol be
>used? I would not like seeing it everywhere, but I do not mind seeing it in
>the About screen, for instance.
>2. Who would own those trademarks?
>
>
My proposal would be to trademark all app names since they are all liable
to be hijacked by third parties for whatever purposes.  It would mean
adding a ™ symbol on web pages where we promote those apps.  They would be
owned by KDE e.v.  Other apps like KOffice have done this in the past as I
say.  However it seems nobody is very much in suppose of the idea so we'll
just have to live with third parties living off our good names.

Jonathan

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

One other argument why we might want to trademark our app names would be to
prevent people buying Google adverts against those names such as kdenlive
has had
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/honvoy/google_publishes_misleading_ad_for_a_proprietary/

Jonathan

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Philippe Cloutier]

Hi Jonathan,

Le 2020-07-08 à 12:12, Jonathan Riddell a écrit :
Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store 
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for 
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't 
know the motivations. Since it's all free software the licence allows it.


One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names. This isn't 
hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our 
website starting with kde.org/applications 
. Some apps such as KOffice have done 
this in the past anyway. This doesn't cost anything, only a registered 
trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs money. It might give us more 
ability to take down random people posting our software on app 
stores.  It might also make us look more corporate than we want to 
look and put off Linux distros from shipping our software.


Should we add ™ next to the app names?



As others have pointed out, depending on what precisely you are trying 
to prevent, there may be other avenues than trademarking.


That being said, to answer your actual question, I would treat this in 
several elements:


1. Do we want to trademark the names of more KDE products (I say "more"
   since "KDE" is already trademarked, so arguably at least one product
   is already trademarked). I personally have no strong opinion, but I
   agree that trademarking can discourage modification. There are ways
   to mitigate that, including publishing a trademark policy, offering
   a contact point to ask about the acceptability of changes, and
   facilitating renaming, for example by adding a compilation option to
   set a different name. I would also suggest committing to publish a
   list of all trademark enforcement actions done, so those who
   consider modifying can get an idea of what will actually be accepted
   or not.
2. If we do agree to trademark more names, which names? We tend to have
   lots of names for lots of projects, many of which I suppose may take
   a while to be sufficiently important to justify trademarking. I
   propose a wiki page as a way to list candidates and poll developers
   about each.
3. For those names we do trademark, how much should the ™ symbol be
   used? I would not like seeing it everywhere, but I do not mind
   seeing it in the About screen, for instance.
4. Who would own those trademarks?



Jonathan


--
Philippe Cloutier
http://www.philippecloutier.com

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Uli Klinkhammer]

On 2020-07-09 15:48, Christoph Cullmann wrote:



You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to
keep
people
from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer free

zone ends.





But there it starts.
What are the conditions?
Is it ok to have e.g. "Kate" on some website of your distro and sell 
the distro?
But it is bad to e.g. have "Kate" in the name of an application when 
you sell that?


Funnily enough, Nextcloud is dealing with a very similar thing.

They are trying to prevent "different kinds of usage of their Software", 
so they putted a Trademark on it.


So, in my opinion, the thing begins with a thread like this here, at it 
ends there:


https://nextcloud.com/trademarks/


If people upload our stuff and make money with it, be it so, that's 
their right granted
by our license. One can check if they provide the sources after you 
buy it and request it,

but I won't start to invest work to do such stuff.

And I would not expect the e.V. to waste resources on such endeavors.


I totally agree.


Greets,

Uli

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Frederico Goncalves Guimaraes]

Hi,

Em quinta-feira, 9 de julho de 2020, às 14:18:58 -03, Nate Graham escreveu:
> On 7/9/20 9:42 AM, Michael Reeves wrote:
> > As current  maintainer of kdiff3 I would oppose trade mark enforce ment.
> > Unless we have clear proof this is an altered version. I am perpared to
> > push out my own free download if noone in this community wants the job.
> > That will end the current problem quite nicely.
> 
> Thanks Michael! That seems like a good path forward.

I do agree with Michael. And maybe there is a way take that software away from 
Microsoft Store. It includes a "Terms of transaction" document as "Additional 
terms". This part is interesting:

===
Terms Relating to the Sale of Products AND SERVICES to You
 
5. Geographic Availability. Product availability may vary depending on your 
region or device. In addition, there may be limits on where we can ship goods, 
or provide services or digital content. To complete your purchase, you may be 
required to have a valid billing and shipping address within the country or 
region of the Store where you are purchasing.
 
6. End Users Only. You must be an end user to purchase products from the 
Store. Resellers are not eligible to purchase.
===

As far as I know this is against GPL, because it restrict access and 
distribution of the software.

And if we go a little more below we have this:

===
12. Software Licenses and Use Rights. Software and other digital content made 
available through the Stores are licensed, not sold, to you. Applications 
downloaded directly from the Store are subject to the Standard Application 
License Terms (“SALT”) available at [https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?
linkid=838610&clcid=0x0809], unless different license terms are provided with 
the application (applications downloaded from the Office Store are not 
governed by the SALT and have separate license terms). Software licenses 
purchased at the Microsoft Retail Store are subject to the license agreement 
that accompanies the software, and you will be required to agree to the 
license agreement when you purchase, download and/or install the software. In 
addition, software and other digital content made available through the Store 
are subject to the usage rules located at http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?
LinkId=723143. Any reproduction or redistribution of software or merchandise 
not in accordance with the relevant license terms, usage rules, and applicable 
law is expressly prohibited and may result in severe civil and criminal 
penalties. Violators risk prosecution to the maximum extent of the law.
===

Since the uploader didn't define a licence in software overview, it will be 
automatically licensed under this SALT (really a good name) terms. And this is 
a clear infringement of GPL.

Wouldn't this be sufficient to help us?

Best,


Frederico
-- 
Linux User #228171
Espaço digital: http://teia.bio.br
Perfil Hubzilla: http://hub.vilarejo.pro.br/channel/aracnus

"Liberdade, essa palavra que o sonho humano alimenta, que não há ninguém que 
explique e ninguém que não entenda." (Cecília Meireles)


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Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-09 20:10, Nicolás Alvarez wrote:

El jue., 9 de jul. de 2020 a la(s) 10:49, Christoph Cullmann
(christ...@cullmann.io) escribió:

There is no evidence that this upload contains any virus/miner/...

And even for the GPL it is enough if he provides the sources on 
request

and only to the customers that bought the app.


That's not true:
- If I buy the app and it includes the source code, I'm allowed to
redistribute the binary, as long as I include the source code too
(GPLv2 §3.a).
- If it *doesn't* include the source code, then it has to include a
written offer to provide the source code "to any third party" (GPLv2
§3.b), and I'm allowed to redistribute the binary as long as I include
either the source code (§3.a), or pass along the offer for source code
that I got from the seller (§3.c). If you download it from me and I
include that offer, you can request the source from the seller, even
if you didn't buy the app from them.


Yes, that is all fine, but you see the point that one needs to buy it
at least once to check that. It might not be me, you can do it and pass
it to me and I can then request the stuff.

If they fail to hand out the sources then, there is an issue.

But as long as nobody buys it and any of the above isn't honored, there
is no legal issue.

Anyways, I am not sure if the GPL violation is at all a point here,
I doubt they will not give out the sources, they just want to rip
off the average Joe/Jane/.. app store customer that cares not at all
to get the sources or doesn't investigate at all that he could get
this for free.

Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Nicolás Alvarez]

El jue., 9 de jul. de 2020 a la(s) 10:49, Christoph Cullmann
(christ...@cullmann.io) escribió:
> There is no evidence that this upload contains any virus/miner/...
>
> And even for the GPL it is enough if he provides the sources on request
> and only to the customers that bought the app.

That's not true:
- If I buy the app and it includes the source code, I'm allowed to
redistribute the binary, as long as I include the source code too
(GPLv2 §3.a).
- If it *doesn't* include the source code, then it has to include a
written offer to provide the source code "to any third party" (GPLv2
§3.b), and I'm allowed to redistribute the binary as long as I include
either the source code (§3.a), or pass along the offer for source code
that I got from the seller (§3.c). If you download it from me and I
include that offer, you can request the source from the seller, even
if you didn't buy the app from them.

-- 
Nicolás

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Nate Graham]

On 7/9/20 9:42 AM, Michael Reeves wrote:
As current  maintainer of kdiff3 I would oppose trade mark enforce ment. 
Unless we have clear proof this is an altered version. I am perpared to 
push out my own free download if noone in this community wants the job. 
That will end the current problem quite nicely.


Thanks Michael! That seems like a good path forward.

Nate

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-09 17:42, Michael Reeves wrote:

As current  maintainer of kdiff3 I would oppose trade mark enforce
ment. Unless we have clear proof this is an altered version. I am
perpared to push out my own free download if noone in this community
wants the job. That will end the current problem quite nicely.


Hi,

having the binary-factory.kde.org variant in the store would be great,
if you can help with this, e.g. submission howto is on

https://kate-editor.org/post/2019/2019-11-03-windows-store-submission-guide/

I can help with filling the stuff, if you provide a tested installer.

Greetings
Christoph



On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 10:27 AM Jack 
wrote:


On 7/9/20 9:48 AM, Christoph Cullmann wrote:

On 2020-07-09 14:18, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 12:29, Christoph Cullmann
 wrote:


You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to
keep
people
from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer

free


zone ends.


Sending an e-mail to the Microsoft store doesn't need to cost
anything, and it would have more effect if there can be a claim

of

trademark.  Claiming copyright infringement as discussed on this
thread is also sensible but it does need more work and will need

at

least the cost of buying kdiff3 from their store.


Hi,

sending just a mail will for sure not be enough, as the license

allows

anybody to upload our stuff there.

You can start to claim that the name is trademarked but then this

will

only work if the other party doesn't claim it is not or that we

don't

have
a policy that forbids to upload something with that name + get

money

for it.

I think the suggestion of a letter to Microsoft was about the
potential
copyright violation, not about trademark.  They could confirm
whether or
not there is an offer of source code within the package without
having
to buy it.


--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Michael Reeves]

As current  maintainer of kdiff3 I would oppose trade mark enforce ment.
Unless we have clear proof this is an altered version. I am perpared to
push out my own free download if noone in this community wants the job.
That will end the current problem quite nicely.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020, 10:27 AM Jack  wrote:

> On 7/9/20 9:48 AM, Christoph Cullmann wrote:
> > On 2020-07-09 14:18, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> >> On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 12:29, Christoph Cullmann
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>> You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to
> >>> keep
> >>> people
> >>> from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer free
> >>>
> >>> zone ends.
> >>
> >> Sending an e-mail to the Microsoft store doesn't need to cost
> >> anything, and it would have more effect if there can be a claim of
> >> trademark.  Claiming copyright infringement as discussed on this
> >> thread is also sensible but it does need more work and will need at
> >> least the cost of buying kdiff3 from their store.
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > sending just a mail will for sure not be enough, as the license allows
> > anybody to upload our stuff there.
> >
> > You can start to claim that the name is trademarked but then this will
> > only work if the other party doesn't claim it is not or that we don't
> > have
> > a policy that forbids to upload something with that name + get money
> > for it.
> I think the suggestion of a letter to Microsoft was about the potential
> copyright violation, not about trademark.  They could confirm whether or
> not there is an offer of source code within the package without having
> to buy it.
>

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jack]

On 7/9/20 9:48 AM, Christoph Cullmann wrote:

On 2020-07-09 14:18, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 12:29, Christoph Cullmann
 wrote:


You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to
keep
people
from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer free

zone ends.


Sending an e-mail to the Microsoft store doesn't need to cost
anything, and it would have more effect if there can be a claim of
trademark.  Claiming copyright infringement as discussed on this
thread is also sensible but it does need more work and will need at
least the cost of buying kdiff3 from their store.


Hi,

sending just a mail will for sure not be enough, as the license allows
anybody to upload our stuff there.

You can start to claim that the name is trademarked but then this will
only work if the other party doesn't claim it is not or that we don't 
have
a policy that forbids to upload something with that name + get money 
for it.
I think the suggestion of a letter to Microsoft was about the potential 
copyright violation, not about trademark.  They could confirm whether or 
not there is an offer of source code within the package without having 
to buy it.

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-09 14:18, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 12:29, Christoph Cullmann
 wrote:


You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to
keep
people
from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer free

zone ends.


Sending an e-mail to the Microsoft store doesn't need to cost
anything, and it would have more effect if there can be a claim of
trademark.  Claiming copyright infringement as discussed on this
thread is also sensible but it does need more work and will need at
least the cost of buying kdiff3 from their store.


Hi,

sending just a mail will for sure not be enough, as the license allows
anybody to upload our stuff there.

You can start to claim that the name is trademarked but then this will
only work if the other party doesn't claim it is not or that we don't 
have
a policy that forbids to upload something with that name + get money for 
it.


There is no evidence that this upload contains any virus/miner/...

And even for the GPL it is enough if he provides the sources on request
and only to the customers that bought the app.




I really don't think we should start this.


Why? Nobody has given any reason against it so far.


Because this starts to create a threatening atmosphere.

I am allowed to package e.g. Kate (TM)?
Must I rename it?
What are the conditions?
Might they change?
Can I sell it? e.g. can I sell a DVD with a distro with that stuff on 
it?





We would need to draft some TM use policy, too.


Yeah we'd need to write some simple policy that would allow normal
uses like Linux distros and package archives, but they're not trading
using our app names for the most part so it's not a big issue.


But there it starts.
What are the conditions?
Is it ok to have e.g. "Kate" on some website of your distro and sell the 
distro?
But it is bad to e.g. have "Kate" in the name of an application when you 
sell that?


I really think this only produces both a bad taste about if our stuff is 
really free

to use and more work than needed.

If somebody uploads trojans/... to the MS store, that is MS's problem, 
they review/scan

the stuff there.

If we know that there are such things inside a package, one can inform 
them even without

any trademark/name/... issue.

If people upload our stuff and make money with it, be it so, that's 
their right granted
by our license. One can check if they provide the sources after you buy 
it and request it,

but I won't start to invest work to do such stuff.

And I would not expect the e.V. to waste resources on such endeavors.

Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

On Thu, 9 Jul 2020 at 12:29, Christoph Cullmann 
wrote:

> You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to keep
> people
> from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer free
> zone ends.
>

Sending an e-mail to the Microsoft store doesn't need to cost anything, and
it would have more effect if there can be a claim of trademark.  Claiming
copyright infringement as discussed on this thread is also sensible but it
does need more work and will need at least the cost of buying kdiff3 from
their store.


> I really don't think we should start this.
>

Why? Nobody has given any reason against it so far.


> We would need to draft some TM use policy, too.
>

Yeah we'd need to write some simple policy that would allow normal uses
like Linux distros and package archives, but they're not trading using our
app names for the most part so it's not a big issue.


> Better promote our own offerings better and be done
>

I'm all for this as well of course :)

Jonathan

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-09 13:14, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 17:51, Paul Brown  wrote:


Should we add ™ next to the app names?


I don't think putting TM next to the name is enough, though. IANAL,
so take
the following with a grain of salt: in my experience (I had to
register
several names of magazines back in the day) you always have to go
through some
registry office or another to confer any validity to you brand name.
It is not
hard and it is not expensive, but it is a bit of a hassle.


It is enough to put the TM symbol next to the names, this asserts an
unregistered trademark and is cost-free, bureaucracy-free and applies
internationally.


You might be able to do that, but as soon as you start to try to keep 
people
from using the names, the cost-free, bureaucracy-free and layer free 
zone ends.


I really don't think we should start this.

We would need to draft some TM use policy, too.

e.g., would the normal distro be able to use the name? Or only if we 
like
the package? Is it allowed for others to upload the stuff somewhere cost 
free?
e.g. see the https://chocolatey.org/packages/kate package, is that ok? 
or not?


Better promote our own offerings better and be done.

(naturally only my personal opinion)

Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 19:34, Martin Floeser  wrote:

> Am 2020-07-08 18:12, schrieb Jonathan Riddell:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> > it.
>
> Honestly I don't think we should try to get software from Microsoft
> Store based on trademark. As you already notice our license allows this.
> And even more on Linux it's the normal way that someone else distributes
> our software. Back in the days SuSE even sold our software. It's even
> common that our distributors apply patches to our software. So we
> shouldn't treat the Microsoft Store different to Linux distributions.
>

The difference is we understand the motivations of Linux distros and are
happy to be part of that setup.  We don't understand the motivations of the
random people who put our software on third party app stores and it doesn't
benefit us in any way and it likely detracts from us.

Jonathan

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2020 at 17:51, Paul Brown  wrote:

> > Should we add ™ next to the app names?
>
> I don't think putting TM next to the name is enough, though. IANAL, so
> take
> the following with a grain of salt: in my experience (I had to register
> several names of magazines back in the day) you always have to go through
> some
> registry office or another to confer any validity to you brand name. It is
> not
> hard and it is not expensive, but it is a bit of a hassle.
>

It is enough to put the TM symbol next to the names, this asserts an
unregistered trademark and is cost-free, bureaucracy-free and applies
internationally.

Jonathan

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-09 01:23, Nate Graham wrote:

On 7/8/20 4:27 PM, Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote:

On Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2020 20:27:58 CEST Christoph Cullmann wrote:

Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
possible.

(and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)


+1
IMO the most important thing here is to prevent someone else giving 
KDE a bad
reputation by providing a low quality app. The best way to do that is 
to
provide an official app - I think people will use that one if they 
have the

opportunity.


Yeah.

Uploading these apps ourselves seems to be the obvious solution. This
will also undercut any 3rd-party uploads that cost money, because who
would pay money for a counterfeit version when the original thing
straight from the authors is free?


Yes,

but that will need people that help with this.

At the moment, Hannah, me, and a few others do that, but there is no 
real workforce

to get more stuff uploaded at the moment.

(I even didn't update e.g. filelight since last year or so, just Kate 
and Okular)


For Kate and Okular I am happy with the current state, there are some 
open bug reports,
but as far as I can see nothing really grave like "crashs the whole 
time" or "eats all my data".


Still, it would be nice to reach out to more developers on Windows, not 
sure how that is done best,

my blog posts did seem to have a very low impact.

Btw., the internal store statistics show Kate will soon peek over the 
50k acquisitions border, Okular is a bit over 40k.


Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Nate Graham]

On 7/8/20 4:27 PM, Johannes Zarl-Zierl wrote:

On Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2020 20:27:58 CEST Christoph Cullmann wrote:

Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
possible.

(and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)


+1
IMO the most important thing here is to prevent someone else giving KDE a bad
reputation by providing a low quality app. The best way to do that is to
provide an official app - I think people will use that one if they have the
opportunity.


Yeah.

Uploading these apps ourselves seems to be the obvious solution. This 
will also undercut any 3rd-party uploads that cost money, because who 
would pay money for a counterfeit version when the original thing 
straight from the authors is free?


Nate

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Johannes Zarl-Zierl]

On Mittwoch, 8. Juli 2020 20:27:58 CEST Christoph Cullmann wrote:
> Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
> possible.
> 
> (and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)

+1
IMO the most important thing here is to prevent someone else giving KDE a bad 
reputation by providing a low quality app. The best way to do that is to 
provide an official app - I think people will use that one if they have the 
opportunity.

Cheers,
  Johannes

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Albert Astals Cid]

El dimecres, 8 de juliol de 2020, a les 20:54:13 CEST, Martin Floeser va 
escriure:
> Am 2020-07-08 20:45, schrieb Jack:
> > On 2020.07.08 14:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> >> > > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft
> >> Store
> >> > > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score
> >> for
> >> > > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We
> >> don't
> >> > > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence
> >> allows
> >> > > it.
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > have you some links to these applications?
> >> 
> >> I believe Jonathan will be referring to
> >> https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#
> > If I follow that link, and click for the US version, I see KDiff3 for
> > sale at $4.99.  Does the license actually allow charging?  (I wonder
> > how that is split between MS and the uploader.)
> 
> GPLv3 Section 6 d
> "Convey the object code by offering access from a designated place 
> (gratis or for a charge), and offer equivalent access to the 
> Corresponding Source in the same way through the same place at no 
> further charge. "
> 
> So yes, charging is fine, not providing the source code looks to me like 
> a GPL violation. And I think that puts the ball to KDE e.V. board to 
> contact Microsoft.

AFAIU the source code only needs to be provided to those that the binary is 
provided, so someone needs to buy it first to see if they are providing the 
source code or not.

Cheers,
  Albert

> 
> Cheers
> Martin
> 

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Nicolás Alvarez]

El mié., 8 de jul. de 2020 a la(s) 15:28, Christoph Cullmann
(christ...@cullmann.io) escribió:
>
> On 2020-07-08 20:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> >> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> >> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> >> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> >> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> >> > it.
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> have you some links to these applications?
> >
> > I believe Jonathan will be referring to
> > https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#
>
> Hi, thanks for the link.
>
> Guess such things are unavoidable.
>
> If the uploading person is some KDE community member, I assume one could
> talk with him/her/...

I doubt it's a KDE community member. Here are all their uploaded apps,
only one is KDE:
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/search/shop/Apps?q=Dev+Packager

> Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is
> possible.

Well, I don't know if the app is complying with the GPL. I would need
to purchase it to see if the downloaded package has the full GPL
license text, and the Corresponding Sources or a link to it. (Which,
by the way, I'm not sure if we're strictly following in our own
official uploads to the MS Store)

-- 
Nicolás

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Martin Floeser]

Am 2020-07-08 20:45, schrieb Jack:

On 2020.07.08 14:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann
 wrote:
>
> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft
Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score
for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We
don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence
allows
> > it.
>
> Hi,
>
> have you some links to these applications?

I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#

If I follow that link, and click for the US version, I see KDiff3 for
sale at $4.99.  Does the license actually allow charging?  (I wonder
how that is split between MS and the uploader.)


GPLv3 Section 6 d
"Convey the object code by offering access from a designated place 
(gratis or for a charge), and offer equivalent access to the 
Corresponding Source in the same way through the same place at no 
further charge. "


So yes, charging is fine, not providing the source code looks to me like 
a GPL violation. And I think that puts the ball to KDE e.V. board to 
contact Microsoft.


Cheers
Martin

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Michael Reeves]

For kdiff3 this would be a starting point. https://phabricator.kde.org/T9580

On Wed, Jul 8, 2020, 2:34 PM Martin Floeser  wrote:

> Am 2020-07-08 18:12, schrieb Jonathan Riddell:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> > it.
>
> Honestly I don't think we should try to get software from Microsoft
> Store based on trademark. As you already notice our license allows this.
> And even more on Linux it's the normal way that someone else distributes
> our software. Back in the days SuSE even sold our software. It's even
> common that our distributors apply patches to our software. So we
> shouldn't treat the Microsoft Store different to Linux distributions.
>
> Granted I consider it as a huge problem that the Microsoft Store might
> contain copies of our software with malware. But to that we have
> solutions: the GPL. We can demand the source code from those
> distributors. If they don't comply: even better, than we have something!
> If they comply and our software is reproducible, we can verify that the
> uploaded binary is not tampered with (and that it doesn't comply to
> GPL). Yes, that puts work on our shoulders. If our software doesn't
> build reproducible, we need to fix that.
>
> Otherwise I suggest that we bring all our software in the Microsoft
> Store to ensure we at least uploaded it. If we have it uploaded and
> someone else uploads it as well, we can still ask Microsoft to do
> something about it. I hope that Microsoft is interested in not
> distributing malware and removes copies of open source projects or adds
> links to the original authors. After all Microsoft really tries to be on
> the good side currently, so we should try ;-)
>
> Cheers
> Martin
>

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jack]

On 2020.07.08 14:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann  
 wrote:

>
> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft  
Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score  
for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We  
don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence  
allows

> > it.
>
> Hi,
>
> have you some links to these applications?

I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#
If I follow that link, and click for the US version, I see KDiff3 for  
sale at $4.99.  Does the license actually allow charging?  (I wonder  
how that is split between MS and the uploader.)   I know you can charge  
for media, but this is download, so no media.  It also doesn't seem to  
mention anything about where the source code is available.  I don't see  
any mention of KDE at all, but I suppose that is legal.


I'm curious what happens if someone buys this, and then needs help.  Do  
they go to the uploader?  I doubt it.  Do they go to Microsoft?  I  
doubt it.  If the program hasn't been modified by the uploader to point  
to a different source of help, it probably points back to KDE.


If KDE does officially upload anything to the Window Store, should we  
just upload an official version whenever we see this happen?



> > One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't
> > hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our
> > website starting with kde.org/applications [1]. Some apps such as
> > KOffice have done this in the past anyway.  This doesn't cost
> > anything, only a registered trademark (which uses the ®. logo)  
costs

> > money.  It might give us more ability to take down random people
> > posting our software on app stores.  It might also make us look  
more
> > corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros from  
shipping

> > our software.
> >
> > Should we add ™ next to the app names?
>
> As other already posted, I don't think this is sufficient nor do I  
think
> that is really the direction we should move to. (at least for Kate,  
I am

> fine with the status quo).

I concur with that sentiment.

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Martin Floeser]

Am 2020-07-08 18:12, schrieb Jonathan Riddell:

Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
it.


Honestly I don't think we should try to get software from Microsoft 
Store based on trademark. As you already notice our license allows this. 
And even more on Linux it's the normal way that someone else distributes 
our software. Back in the days SuSE even sold our software. It's even 
common that our distributors apply patches to our software. So we 
shouldn't treat the Microsoft Store different to Linux distributions.


Granted I consider it as a huge problem that the Microsoft Store might 
contain copies of our software with malware. But to that we have 
solutions: the GPL. We can demand the source code from those 
distributors. If they don't comply: even better, than we have something! 
If they comply and our software is reproducible, we can verify that the 
uploaded binary is not tampered with (and that it doesn't comply to 
GPL). Yes, that puts work on our shoulders. If our software doesn't 
build reproducible, we need to fix that.


Otherwise I suggest that we bring all our software in the Microsoft 
Store to ensure we at least uploaded it. If we have it uploaded and 
someone else uploads it as well, we can still ask Microsoft to do 
something about it. I hope that Microsoft is interested in not 
distributing malware and removes copies of open source projects or adds 
links to the original authors. After all Microsoft really tries to be on 
the good side currently, so we should try ;-)


Cheers
Martin

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-08 20:20, Ben Cooksley wrote:
On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann 
 wrote:


On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> it.

Hi,

have you some links to these applications?


I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#


Hi, thanks for the link.

Guess such things are unavoidable.

If the uploading person is some KDE community member, I assume one could 
talk with him/her/...


Otherwise we must keep in mind we are open source and yes, this is 
possible.


(and perhaps promote the KDE e.V. uploaded stuff better)

Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Ben Cooksley]

On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:09 AM Christoph Cullmann  wrote:
>
> On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> > Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> > uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
> > their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
> > know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
> > it.
>
> Hi,
>
> have you some links to these applications?

I believe Jonathan will be referring to
https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/kdiff-3-diff-utility/9ndvvx243rfh?activetab=pivot:overviewtab#

>
> >
> > One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't
> > hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our
> > website starting with kde.org/applications [1]. Some apps such as
> > KOffice have done this in the past anyway.  This doesn't cost
> > anything, only a registered trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs
> > money.  It might give us more ability to take down random people
> > posting our software on app stores.  It might also make us look more
> > corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros from shipping
> > our software.
> >
> > Should we add ™ next to the app names?
>
> As other already posted, I don't think this is sufficient nor do I think
> that is really the direction we should move to. (at least for Kate, I am
> fine with the status quo).

I concur with that sentiment.

>
> Greetings
> Christoph

Cheers,
Ben

>
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > --
> > [1] http://kde.org/applications
>
> --
> Ignorance is bliss...
> https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Christoph Cullmann]

On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:

Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't
know the motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows
it.


Hi,

have you some links to these applications?



One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't
hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our
website starting with kde.org/applications [1]. Some apps such as
KOffice have done this in the past anyway.  This doesn't cost
anything, only a registered trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs
money.  It might give us more ability to take down random people
posting our software on app stores.  It might also make us look more
corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros from shipping
our software.

Should we add ™ next to the app names?


As other already posted, I don't think this is sufficient nor do I think
that is really the direction we should move to. (at least for Kate, I am
fine with the status quo).

Greetings
Christoph



Jonathan



Links:
--
[1] http://kde.org/applications


--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Uli Klinkhammer]

Hey Jonathan, Hey all@kde,

I am totally new to the KDE scene, but if you ask for my opinion:

I would really not recommend it.

If you begin with those "business game attitudes" on one day, you will 
most likely end up opening a Pandoras Box. In my opinion, the best is to 
keep out of those playing fields.


There has been "free riders" at any time. Fighting them is the first 
step to enter a fighting world.


Uli - (KONTENT GmbH - KDE Supporter)


On 2020-07-08 18:12, Jonathan Riddell wrote:
Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store 
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for 
their developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't 
know the motivations. Since it's all free software the licence allows it.


One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names. This isn't 
hard, we just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our 
website starting with kde.org/applications 
. Some apps such as KOffice have done 
this in the past anyway. This doesn't cost anything, only a registered 
trademark (which uses the ®. logo) costs money. It might give us more 
ability to take down random people posting our software on app 
stores.  It might also make us look more corporate than we want to 
look and put off Linux distros from shipping our software.


Should we add ™ next to the app names?

Jonathan


--

Re: KDE Apps name trademarks

[Paul Brown]

On miércoles, 8 de julio de 2020 18:12:49 (CEST) Jonathan Riddell wrote:
> Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
> uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for their
> developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't know the
> motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows it.
> 
> One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't hard, we
> just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our website starting
> with kde.org/applications. Some apps such as KOffice have done this in the
> past anyway.  This doesn't cost anything, only a registered trademark
> (which uses the ®. logo) costs money.  It might give us more ability to
> take down random people posting our software on app stores.  It might also
> make us look more corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros
> from shipping our software.
> 
> Should we add ™ next to the app names?

I agree this is a tremendous concern and should be treated accordingly. It not 
only damages the reputation of the projects and deprives the creators from a 
potential source of income that could help maintain the project, but also puts 
would-be users in danger, which is unacceptable. Thanks for bringing this up, 
Jon.

I don't think putting TM next to the name is enough, though. IANAL, so take 
the following with a grain of salt: in my experience (I had to register 
several names of magazines back in the day) you always have to go through some 
registry office or another to confer any validity to you brand name. It is not 
hard and it is not expensive, but it is a bit of a hassle.

Furthermore, unfortunately these registry offices only protect in the 
jurisdictions where they operate, so you can have an EU-wide protection, but 
it won't cover you if someone abuses your mark in the US. To protect against 
that you would need to register with the corresponding authority in the US 
also.

But, maybe, to get illegitimate content removed from app stores, it may be 
enough to wave your local trademark documentation under the noses of the 
administrators, regardless of the jurisdiction the offending material was 
uploaded in.

Again, not a lawyer, maybe someone with more knowledge can give us more 
insight.

Either way, yes, this problem should be addressed early before it comes round 
and bites us bad.

Cheers

Paul
-- 
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KDE Apps name trademarks

[Jonathan Riddell]

Recently we've noticed some KDE apps ending up on the Microsoft Store
uploaded by unknown third parties.  Maybe to up some credit score for their
developer account.  Maybe to install bitcoin  miners.  We don't know the
motivations.  Since it's all free software the licence allows it.

One option is to claim Trademark on all our app names.  This isn't hard, we
just add the ™ onto the name anywhere we have it on our website starting
with kde.org/applications. Some apps such as KOffice have done this in the
past anyway.  This doesn't cost anything, only a registered trademark
(which uses the ®. logo) costs money.  It might give us more ability to
take down random people posting our software on app stores.  It might also
make us look more corporate than we want to look and put off Linux distros
from shipping our software.

Should we add ™ next to the app names?

Jonathan