Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Albert Astals Cid]

+1000 to what Friedrich said :)

Cheers,
   Albert

En lunes, 6 de noviembre de 2017 17:13:04 CET, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau 
 escribió: 

Hi Martin,

Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks
> - liquidshell


Congrats to the achievement. It surely feels good to run a workspace one has 
created one themselves :)

While myself I will choose Plasma over liquidshell due to my needs and 
expectations of certain features, I can see that liquidshell would satisfy 
those persons who need or want just a simple hard-coded shell following a 
well-known UI design & concept, yet stay with the usual tools and apps from 
the KDE software world, ideally perfectly integrated with the workspace (think 
filemanager, terminal, text editor, etc). People like obviously yourself :) So 
those persons might be surely happy about you sharing your work with them.

My hopes for liquidshell as another project under the KDE community umbrella:
* improvements for shared middleware, perhaps even introducing some more
  where it makes sense to share between Plasma, liquidshell & others
  (pushing for more clear UI-core separation, which in theory is for good)
  libtm might be one such thing, the weather data provider system also calls
  for being shared code with Plasma (and e.g. the Marble weather plugin)
* another testing ground for protocols & standards in development
* make more obvious that "KDE" is about a community, not a certain software
* give perhaps remaining trinity desktop developers and other
  Plasma-no-Qt-jay-fans a new center for their goals and as result also new
  contributors for the shared middleware, tools and apps (at least for their
  current QtWidgets UI variant ;) )

Re: gosh, yet another workspace
In a perfect world everybody would join work on the one true golden workspace 
solution, reality is that there is no such one-workspace-which-fits-all. Not 
to forget the mythical person-month issue.

And if people rather go and write their own software instead of joining 
existing projects, it should be the projects asking themselves why they have 
not been attractive enough in the first place.
Telling people instead "you should not do X, but Y" is rather the opposite of 
what Free Software is about. Even when first saying "Your are free, but".

I applaud you, Martin, for managing to solve your needs yourself and for 
sharing the results with the rest of the world, instead of keeping them for 
yourself.
And as KDE community we can feel honored you trust us to be the best place for 
further development of your software, instead of going github or elsewhere.

Re: liquidshell as name
When I read liquidshell I first thought about something very dynamic, highly 
animated. So not sure "liquid" is the best term to use in the name. But then 
we all know naming is hard, good luck with it :)

Cheers
Friedrich

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Albert Astals Cid]

Sorry for top postiing, stupid webmail.

Almost all projects start as a one man project, if you reject those you're 
basically making impossible for them to grow.

Cheers,
  Albert

En lunes, 6 de noviembre de 2017 15:31:34 CET, Tomaz Canabrava 
 escribió: 

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Alexander Potashev  wrote:
> 2017-11-06 14:16 GMT+03:00 Kevin Funk :
>> You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this sounds
>> like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with joining 
>> up
>> with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I had a bad impression of LxQt because:
>  1. it didn't work for me out of the box,

For many people kde applications don't work out of the box too.

>   2. it consists of many components, it's hard to figure out which of
> them are optional,

Also true for kde applications.

>   3. it has poor infrastructure compared to KDE, e.g. their i18n server
> hadn't been working for about a year.

I cant comment on that - but the project seems to be alive as there was a new 
release just last month with a lot of changes, also they use kf5 libraries 
where needed. 
 
>  Thus liquidshell looks better to me than lxqt; joining an inferior
> project is not a good idea.

please refrain from using words like 'inferior' for a project as it's not 
helpful. 
Currently the whole code for liquidshell is done for one person, and we (as in 
the KDE Sc) suffer for a lot of good projects and ideas that as soon as the 
original developers get tired the project stalls,
like Macaw Movie, Spectacle, Baloo and quite a few others - so I'm really 
afraid of a one-man-project that's basically what other many projects already 
do.


About liquidshell, I tried but it didn't even compile on my machine (some issue 
with Solid)


 
>  --Alexander Potashev

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Alexander Neundorf]

On 2017 M11 6, Mon 10:03:05 CET Tomaz Canabrava wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller  wrote:
...
> > Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> > My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> > Free software is about choice, no ?
> 
> It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
> human resources are spare.

just speaking for myself: I don't feel qualified to contribute to plasma (QML, 
very flexible architecture, fancy design concepts, etc.), but I would feel 
qualified to send a patch for a simple QWidget-based desktop shell.

Alex

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Alexander Neundorf]

On 2017 M11 6, Mon 19:13:36 CET Martin Koller wrote:
> On Montag, 6. November 2017 10:03:05 CET Tomaz Canabrava wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> > > On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last
> > > > > few
> > > 
> > > weeks - liquidshell
> > > 
> > > > > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> > > > 
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > > I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?
> > > 
> > > Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> > > My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> > > Free software is about choice, no ?
> > 
> > It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
> > human resources are spare.
> > I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to
> > do,
> > but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same
> > 'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another
> > desktop shell?
> 
> lxqt say on their web page "The Lightweight Qt Desktop Environment"
> 
> I don't want to create yet another Desktop Environment.
> I was just unhappy with plasmashell, which liquidshell replaces

I tried lxqt too once, and while nice, I found quite some things lacking, IIRC 
if because it replaces really a lot of things and not only plasmashell.
So while joining forces with lxqt sounds very obvious, lxqt AFAIK has a much 
wider focus, so I can understand starting a project which is "just" a 
replacement for plasmashell.

Alex

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Martin Koller]

On Montag, 6. November 2017 17:12:31 CET Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Hi Martin,
> 
> Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks
> > - liquidshell
> 
> Congrats to the achievement. It surely feels good to run a workspace one has 
> created one themselves :)
> 
> While myself I will choose Plasma over liquidshell due to my needs and 
> expectations of certain features, I can see that liquidshell would satisfy 
> those persons who need or want just a simple hard-coded shell following a 
> well-known UI design & concept, yet stay with the usual tools and apps from 
> the KDE software world, ideally perfectly integrated with the workspace 
> (think 
> filemanager, terminal, text editor, etc). People like obviously yourself :) 
> So 
> those persons might be surely happy about you sharing your work with them.
> 
> My hopes for liquidshell as another project under the KDE community umbrella:
> * improvements for shared middleware, perhaps even introducing some more
>   where it makes sense to share between Plasma, liquidshell & others
>   (pushing for more clear UI-core separation, which in theory is for good)
>   libtm might be one such thing, the weather data provider system also calls
>   for being shared code with Plasma (and e.g. the Marble weather plugin)
> * another testing ground for protocols & standards in development
> * make more obvious that "KDE" is about a community, not a certain software
> * give perhaps remaining trinity desktop developers and other
>   Plasma-no-Qt-jay-fans a new center for their goals and as result also new
>   contributors for the shared middleware, tools and apps (at least for their
>   current QtWidgets UI variant ;) )
> 
> Re: gosh, yet another workspace
> In a perfect world everybody would join work on the one true golden workspace 
> solution, reality is that there is no such one-workspace-which-fits-all. Not 
> to forget the mythical person-month issue.
> 
> And if people rather go and write their own software instead of joining 
> existing projects, it should be the projects asking themselves why they have 
> not been attractive enough in the first place.
> Telling people instead "you should not do X, but Y" is rather the opposite of 
> what Free Software is about. Even when first saying "Your are free, but".
> 
> I applaud you, Martin, for managing to solve your needs yourself and for 
> sharing the results with the rest of the world, instead of keeping them for 
> yourself.
> And as KDE community we can feel honored you trust us to be the best place 
> for 
> further development of your software, instead of going github or elsewhere.

thanks for the appreciation
 
> Re: liquidshell as name
> When I read liquidshell I first thought about something very dynamic, highly 
> animated. So not sure "liquid" is the best term to use in the name. But then 
> we all know naming is hard, good luck with it :)

This was a tough one. really not easy to select a sensible name.
I was considering "solidshell" but Solid has already a meaning in the KDE world.

-- 
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\- against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Martin Koller]

On Montag, 6. November 2017 17:37:15 CET Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Some more branding oriented nitpicks:
> 
> Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> > - uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual
> > Desktops, Bluetooth, Network
> 
> Please consider saying rather "KDE Frameworks dialogs", due to "KDE dialogs" 
> being a concept which no longer exists at age of KDE Frameworks and Plasma.

changed
 
> > light color theme:
> > http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png dark  color
> > theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png
> 
> Please consider using a non-KDE logo on the start menu on representative/
> advertising screenshots (ideally some new liquidshell logo one, also to help 
> promoting it and building an identity).
> Given the history meaning of the KDE logo as the logo of a desktop, using the 
> KDE logo will spoil the concerted effort of the rebranding done (whether it 
> was a good idea or not is too late to discuss) and only continue the 
> confusion, for no good.
> 
> So with the Plasma workspaces having moved to the Plasma logo, leaving the 
> KDE 
> logo for the community, liquidshell should have and use its own dedicated 
> logo 
> as well. (and yes, the start-here-kde icons would need renaming finally)

I'm very bad at creating appealing graphics, therefore I used exiting icons 
where
possible.
Is there some KDE artist who is willing to create a new logo for me ?

Regarding the rebranding: does that mean KDE (the people behind the project)
does not like to promote KDE ?
Very confusing in my view.
I really meant to show "that is a KDE (based) application" by using its logo - 
was not clear that this is not welcomed.

-- 
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\- against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Martin Koller]

On Montag, 6. November 2017 10:03:05 CET Tomaz Canabrava wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> 
> > On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> > > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few
> > weeks - liquidshell
> > > >
> > > > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> > > >
> >
> > >
> > > Hi Martin,
> > > I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?
> >
> > Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> > My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> > Free software is about choice, no ?
> >
> 
> It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
> human resources are spare.
> I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to
> do,
> but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same
> 'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another
> desktop shell?

lxqt say on their web page "The Lightweight Qt Desktop Environment"

I don't want to create yet another Desktop Environment.
I was just unhappy with plasmashell, which liquidshell replaces

-- 
Best regards/Schöne Grüße

Martin
A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
Q: Why is top posting bad?

()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail 
/\- against proprietary attachments

Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Friedrich W. H. Kossebau]

Some more branding oriented nitpicks:

Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> - uses existing KDE dialogs for most configurations, e.g. StartMenu, Virtual
> Desktops, Bluetooth, Network

Please consider saying rather "KDE Frameworks dialogs", due to "KDE dialogs" 
being a concept which no longer exists at age of KDE Frameworks and Plasma.

> light color theme:
> http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174650.png dark  color
> theme: http://members.aon.at/m.koller/liquidshell_20171103_174944.png

Please consider using a non-KDE logo on the start menu on representative/
advertising screenshots (ideally some new liquidshell logo one, also to help 
promoting it and building an identity).
Given the history meaning of the KDE logo as the logo of a desktop, using the 
KDE logo will spoil the concerted effort of the rebranding done (whether it 
was a good idea or not is too late to discuss) and only continue the 
confusion, for no good.

So with the Plasma workspaces having moved to the Plasma logo, leaving the KDE 
logo for the community, liquidshell should have and use its own dedicated logo 
as well. (and yes, the start-here-kde icons would need renaming finally)

Cheers
Friedrich

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Friedrich W. H. Kossebau]

Hi Martin,

Am Freitag, 3. November 2017, 21:30:19 CET schrieb Martin Koller:
> I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few weeks
> - liquidshell

Congrats to the achievement. It surely feels good to run a workspace one has 
created one themselves :)

While myself I will choose Plasma over liquidshell due to my needs and 
expectations of certain features, I can see that liquidshell would satisfy 
those persons who need or want just a simple hard-coded shell following a 
well-known UI design & concept, yet stay with the usual tools and apps from 
the KDE software world, ideally perfectly integrated with the workspace (think 
filemanager, terminal, text editor, etc). People like obviously yourself :) So 
those persons might be surely happy about you sharing your work with them.

My hopes for liquidshell as another project under the KDE community umbrella:
* improvements for shared middleware, perhaps even introducing some more
  where it makes sense to share between Plasma, liquidshell & others
  (pushing for more clear UI-core separation, which in theory is for good)
  libtm might be one such thing, the weather data provider system also calls
  for being shared code with Plasma (and e.g. the Marble weather plugin)
* another testing ground for protocols & standards in development
* make more obvious that "KDE" is about a community, not a certain software
* give perhaps remaining trinity desktop developers and other
  Plasma-no-Qt-jay-fans a new center for their goals and as result also new
  contributors for the shared middleware, tools and apps (at least for their
  current QtWidgets UI variant ;) )

Re: gosh, yet another workspace
In a perfect world everybody would join work on the one true golden workspace 
solution, reality is that there is no such one-workspace-which-fits-all. Not 
to forget the mythical person-month issue.

And if people rather go and write their own software instead of joining 
existing projects, it should be the projects asking themselves why they have 
not been attractive enough in the first place.
Telling people instead "you should not do X, but Y" is rather the opposite of 
what Free Software is about. Even when first saying "Your are free, but".

I applaud you, Martin, for managing to solve your needs yourself and for 
sharing the results with the rest of the world, instead of keeping them for 
yourself.
And as KDE community we can feel honored you trust us to be the best place for 
further development of your software, instead of going github or elsewhere.

Re: liquidshell as name
When I read liquidshell I first thought about something very dynamic, highly 
animated. So not sure "liquid" is the best term to use in the name. But then 
we all know naming is hard, good luck with it :)

Cheers
Friedrich

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Tomaz Canabrava]

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:30 PM, Alexander Potashev 
wrote:

> 2017-11-06 14:16 GMT+03:00 Kevin Funk :
> > You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this
> sounds
> > like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with
> joining up
> > with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).
>
> Hi,
>
> I had a bad impression of LxQt because:
>  1. it didn't work for me out of the box,
>

For many people kde applications don't work out of the box too.

 2. it consists of many components, it's hard to figure out which of
> them are optional,
>

Also true for kde applications.

 3. it has poor infrastructure compared to KDE, e.g. their i18n server
> hadn't been working for about a year.
>

I cant comment on that - but the project seems to be alive as there was a
new release just last month with a lot of changes, also they use kf5
libraries where needed.


> Thus liquidshell looks better to me than lxqt; joining an inferior
> project is not a good idea.
>

please refrain from using words like 'inferior' for a project as it's not
helpful.
Currently the whole code for liquidshell is done for one person, and we (as
in the KDE Sc) suffer for a lot of good projects and ideas that as soon as
the original developers get tired the project stalls,
like Macaw Movie, Spectacle, Baloo and quite a few others - so I'm really
afraid of a one-man-project that's basically what other many projects
already do.

About liquidshell, I tried but it didn't even compile on my machine (some
issue with Solid)




>
> --
> Alexander Potashev
>

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Alexander Potashev]

2017-11-06 14:16 GMT+03:00 Kevin Funk :
> You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this sounds
> like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with joining up
> with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).

Hi,

I had a bad impression of LxQt because:
 1. it didn't work for me out of the box,
 2. it consists of many components, it's hard to figure out which of
them are optional,
 3. it has poor infrastructure compared to KDE, e.g. their i18n server
hadn't been working for about a year.

Thus liquidshell looks better to me than lxqt; joining an inferior
project is not a good idea.

-- 
Alexander Potashev

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Kevin Funk]

On Monday, 6 November 2017 10:03:05 CET Tomaz Canabrava wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> > On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> > > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > 
> > > > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few
> > 
> > weeks - liquidshell
> > 
> > > > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> > > 
> > > Hi Martin,
> > > I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?
> > 
> > Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> > My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> > Free software is about choice, no ?
> 
> It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
> human resources are spare.
> I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to
> do,
> but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same
> 'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another
> desktop shell?

So much +1.

I'm really sad to see more fragmentation in the DE space instead of finding 
people investing their time helping existing projects, even more so if there's 
one aiming for the same goal under the KDE umbrella.

You're free to work on whatever you like to of course, but to me this sounds 
like wasted effort. Your good incentives would be better spent with joining up 
with others aiming for the same (LxQt for instance).

Hate to be the party pooper here, but I'm just not sure this kind of 
fragmentation helps KDE in the long-term, where we really have a hard time 
finding contributors for the majority of our *existing* projects.

Regards,
Kevin

> > Best regards/Schöne Grüße
> > 
> > Martin
> > A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
> > Q: Why is top posting bad?
> > 
> > ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> > /\- against proprietary attachments
> > 
> > Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at


-- 
Kevin Funk | kf...@kde.org | http://kfunk.org

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: liquidshell in kdereview

[Tomaz Canabrava]

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:31 AM, Martin Koller  wrote:

> On Montag, 6. November 2017 01:57:32 CET Aleix Pol wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:30 PM, Martin Koller  wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'd like to announce an application I've implemented over the last few
> weeks - liquidshell
> > >
> > > liquidshell is a replacement for plasmashell
> > >
>
> >
> > Hi Martin,
> > I'm a bit confused, who is liquidshell for?
>
> Whoever does not like plasmashell, for whatever reason.
> My reasons are mentioned in the README or the announcement mail.
> Free software is about choice, no ?
>

It is, of course. Then, it's also about non-fragmentation, and you know,
human resources are spare.
I know it's your time and your project and I will never tell you what to
do,
but considering that there's lxqt which  exists basically for the same
'whatever reasons', why not help them instead of creating yet another
desktop shell?


> --
> Best regards/Schöne Grüße
>
> Martin
> A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion
> Q: Why is top posting bad?
>
> ()  ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
> /\- against proprietary attachments
>
> Geschenkideen, Accessoires, Seifen, Kulinarisches: www.lillehus.at
>
>
>