Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Piotr Esden-Tempski]

Hi Orson,

I have compiled the current master and tested out the footprint selection.

> On Aug 1, 2017, at 9:08 AM, Maciej Sumiński  wrote:
> 
> On 07/21/2017 11:34 PM, Piotr Esden-Tempski wrote:
> [snip]
>> 1) If a component is very large in the current zoom level it should be 
>> ignored. It makes it very difficult to select small components that end up 
>> on the opposite side of a large component. It is also very unlikely the user 
>> will want to move the thing that is not even visible at the moment because 
>> it is 10x the size of the viewport. :)
> 
> Implemented, I look forward to getting some feedback.

Thank you for the patch. The selection is much easier to use. I see that large 
footprints are being ignored as expected.

> 
>> 2) Add the option to use a button to flip through potential selections. 
>> Having to use the mouse to select the component I meant from a list of 
>> candidates is really annoying. Other software packages have a nicer behavior 
>> for this: select a component and allow swapping through candidates using the 
>> right mouse button (this could be a keyboard shortcut too) and then confirm 
>> with another left click. (a good example is how the package with a bird does 
>> that, this is one of the few things I miss from using that software on daily 
>> basis. :) )
> 
> Tom has not advertised his recent patch, but watchful users may have
> noticed that the disambiguation menu displays numbers now. The numbers
> allow to quick select the desired item from the list using keyboard.

I have to work on a design to give further feedback if that is sufficient or if 
a “rotate through candidates” button is still necessary. Having a keyboard 
shortcut for the selection candidate is definitely a great improvement.

Cheers,
Piotr
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Maciej Sumiński]

On 07/21/2017 11:34 PM, Piotr Esden-Tempski wrote:
[snip]
> 1) If a component is very large in the current zoom level it should be 
> ignored. It makes it very difficult to select small components that end up on 
> the opposite side of a large component. It is also very unlikely the user 
> will want to move the thing that is not even visible at the moment because it 
> is 10x the size of the viewport. :)

Implemented, I look forward to getting some feedback.

> 2) Add the option to use a button to flip through potential selections. 
> Having to use the mouse to select the component I meant from a list of 
> candidates is really annoying. Other software packages have a nicer behavior 
> for this: select a component and allow swapping through candidates using the 
> right mouse button (this could be a keyboard shortcut too) and then confirm 
> with another left click. (a good example is how the package with a bird does 
> that, this is one of the few things I miss from using that software on daily 
> basis. :) )

Tom has not advertised his recent patch, but watchful users may have
noticed that the disambiguation menu displays numbers now. The numbers
allow to quick select the desired item from the list using keyboard.

Cheers,
Orson

> I hope this is useful in some way.
> 
> Just a few of my own 2c regarding the component selection behavior. :D
> 
> Cheers,
> Piotr
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Maciej Sumiński]

Just to let you know, I have just pushed a patch that implements
Jean-Pierre's idea for choosing the footprint drag anchor.

Regards,
Orson

On 07/20/2017 01:50 PM, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
> Hi Jean-Pierre,
> 
> On 07/20/2017 01:44 PM, jp charras wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> AFAIK, for me "old" issues related to the cursor and grid are fixed.
>>
>> AFAIK, when moving a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of its
>> pads or the footprint origin, the nearest candidate point from mouse cursor.
>>
>> Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the 
>> mouse cursor is inside a
>> pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the footprint 
>> (obviously), but not
>> inside a pad.
>>
>> It could be a more intuitive behavior.
> 
> Sounds like a clever idea. Let's wait for some more opinions, but I am
> willing to implement this.
> 
> Regards,
> Orson
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Thomas Pointhuber]

about 1), I would suggest to change the selection behaviour of locked
footprints, to only select when parts of the footprint (line, pad,...)
are explicitly selected (not the area between). Area selection should
also not include locked footprints. This is likely something where users
want to specify the behaviour.

Handling of pcb-edges as footprints is such a case, where this behaviour
would be very handy. Allowing us to lock primitives like lines would
also be something I would consider useful.

Regards, Thomas


Am 2017-07-22 um 03:13 schrieb Marcos Chaparro:
> Good points, I'm especially excited about 1), our pcb edges are
> usually footprints, so I'm always working inside a footprint, which is
> continuously getting selected.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> On Jul 21, 2017 18:34, "Piotr Esden-Tempski"  > wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > On Jul 20, 2017, at 4:44 AM, jp charras  > wrote:
> >
> [SNIP]
> >
> > AFAIK, when moving a single footprint, the anchor point is
> either one of its
> > pads or the footprint origin, the nearest candidate point from
> mouse cursor.
> >
> > Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad
> if the mouse cursor is inside a
> > pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the
> footprint (obviously), but not
> > inside a pad.
> >
> > It could be a more intuitive behavior.
>
>
> Very good idea, usually if I click on a component I do not want to
> move it by the pad unless I explicitly want to do that. Your
> solution is definitely better than the current behavior.
>
> On the component and general item selection topic.
>
> 1) If a component is very large in the current zoom level it
> should be ignored. It makes it very difficult to select small
> components that end up on the opposite side of a large component.
> It is also very unlikely the user will want to move the thing that
> is not even visible at the moment because it is 10x the size of
> the viewport. :)
> 2) Add the option to use a button to flip through potential
> selections. Having to use the mouse to select the component I
> meant from a list of candidates is really annoying. Other software
> packages have a nicer behavior for this: select a component and
> allow swapping through candidates using the right mouse button
> (this could be a keyboard shortcut too) and then confirm with
> another left click. (a good example is how the package with a bird
> does that, this is one of the few things I miss from using that
> software on daily basis. :) )
>
> I hope this is useful in some way.
>
> Just a few of my own 2c regarding the component selection behavior. :D
>
> Cheers,
> Piotr
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Marcos Chaparro]

Good points, I'm especially excited about 1), our pcb edges are usually
footprints, so I'm always working inside a footprint, which is continuously
getting selected.

Cheers


On Jul 21, 2017 18:34, "Piotr Esden-Tempski"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > On Jul 20, 2017, at 4:44 AM, jp charras  wrote:
> >
> [SNIP]
> >
> > AFAIK, when moving a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of
> its
> > pads or the footprint origin, the nearest candidate point from mouse
> cursor.
> >
> > Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the
> mouse cursor is inside a
> > pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the
> footprint (obviously), but not
> > inside a pad.
> >
> > It could be a more intuitive behavior.
>
>
> Very good idea, usually if I click on a component I do not want to move it
> by the pad unless I explicitly want to do that. Your solution is definitely
> better than the current behavior.
>
> On the component and general item selection topic.
>
> 1) If a component is very large in the current zoom level it should be
> ignored. It makes it very difficult to select small components that end up
> on the opposite side of a large component. It is also very unlikely the
> user will want to move the thing that is not even visible at the moment
> because it is 10x the size of the viewport. :)
> 2) Add the option to use a button to flip through potential selections.
> Having to use the mouse to select the component I meant from a list of
> candidates is really annoying. Other software packages have a nicer
> behavior for this: select a component and allow swapping through candidates
> using the right mouse button (this could be a keyboard shortcut too) and
> then confirm with another left click. (a good example is how the package
> with a bird does that, this is one of the few things I miss from using that
> software on daily basis. :) )
>
> I hope this is useful in some way.
>
> Just a few of my own 2c regarding the component selection behavior. :D
>
> Cheers,
> Piotr
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Jörg Hermann]

1) If a component is very large in the current zoom level it should be ignored. 
It makes it very difficult to select small components that end up on the 
opposite side of a large component. It is also very unlikely the user will want 
to move the thing that is not even visible at the moment because it is 10x the 
size of the viewport. :)
2) Add the option to use a button to flip through potential selections. Having 
to use the mouse to select the component I meant from a list of candidates is 
really annoying. Other software packages have a nicer behavior for this: select 
a component and allow swapping through candidates using the right mouse button 
(this could be a keyboard shortcut too) and then confirm with another left 
click. (a good example is how the package with a bird does that, this is one of 
the few things I miss from using that software on daily basis. :) )

I second both points. Related to the selection behavior:

In 4.0.6 I can select components even if their anchors are switched off. But 
components on a layer with switched off anchors should not be selectable at all 
- why else did I switch off their anchors?
This lies inline with Pjotrs selection issues and eases working with pcb that 
have both sides populated A LOT!

Best regards,
 
Jörg Hermann

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Piotr Esden-Tempski]

Hi,

> On Jul 20, 2017, at 4:44 AM, jp charras  wrote:
> 
[SNIP]
> 
> AFAIK, when moving a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of its
> pads or the footprint origin, the nearest candidate point from mouse cursor.
> 
> Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the mouse 
> cursor is inside a
> pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the footprint 
> (obviously), but not
> inside a pad.
> 
> It could be a more intuitive behavior.


Very good idea, usually if I click on a component I do not want to move it by 
the pad unless I explicitly want to do that. Your solution is definitely better 
than the current behavior.

On the component and general item selection topic.

1) If a component is very large in the current zoom level it should be ignored. 
It makes it very difficult to select small components that end up on the 
opposite side of a large component. It is also very unlikely the user will want 
to move the thing that is not even visible at the moment because it is 10x the 
size of the viewport. :)
2) Add the option to use a button to flip through potential selections. Having 
to use the mouse to select the component I meant from a list of candidates is 
really annoying. Other software packages have a nicer behavior for this: select 
a component and allow swapping through candidates using the right mouse button 
(this could be a keyboard shortcut too) and then confirm with another left 
click. (a good example is how the package with a bird does that, this is one of 
the few things I miss from using that software on daily basis. :) )

I hope this is useful in some way.

Just a few of my own 2c regarding the component selection behavior. :D

Cheers,
Piotr
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Jörg Hermann]

> Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the mouse cursor is inside a
> pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the footprint (obviously), but not
> inside a pad.
 

Excellent idea, in combination with Simon Küppers suggestion to highlight the move origin a perfect intuitive way!

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Simon Küppers]

I am also currently not up to speed on this topic. However, what could
also benefit usability is to visually highlight the origin that is
being used during the move operation (maybe a green dot or something).



Am 20.07.2017 um 13:50 schrieb Lorenzo Marcantonio:
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 01:44:06PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
>> Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad
>> if the mouse cursor is inside a pad, and the footprint origin if
>> the mouse cursor is inside the footprint (obviously), but not 
>> inside a pad.
> 
> Uhm. That could be, I noticed it a little while ago.
> 
>> It could be a more intuitive behavior.
> 
> I need to check with a more recent build, maybe these are all
> things that have already been fixed in the meantime.
> 
> Just remembering to not leave things behind :P
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 01:44:06PM +0200, jp charras wrote:
> Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the mouse 
> cursor is inside a
> pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the footprint 
> (obviously), but not
> inside a pad.

Uhm. That could be, I noticed it a little while ago.

> It could be a more intuitive behavior.

I need to check with a more recent build, maybe these are all things
that have already been fixed in the meantime.

Just remembering to not leave things behind :P

-- 
Lorenzo Marcantonio


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Maciej Sumiński]

Hi Jean-Pierre,

On 07/20/2017 01:44 PM, jp charras wrote:
[snip]
> 
> AFAIK, for me "old" issues related to the cursor and grid are fixed.
> 
> AFAIK, when moving a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of its
> pads or the footprint origin, the nearest candidate point from mouse cursor.
> 
> Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the mouse 
> cursor is inside a
> pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the footprint 
> (obviously), but not
> inside a pad.
> 
> It could be a more intuitive behavior.

Sounds like a clever idea. Let's wait for some more opinions, but I am
willing to implement this.

Regards,
Orson



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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[jp charras]

Le 20/07/2017 à 13:27, Maciej Sumiński a écrit :
> On 07/20/2017 12:37 PM, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:14:40PM +0200, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
>>> What do you exactly mean regarding the cursor behavior?
>>
>> For example the cursor moving on the grid and using space to take
>> measurement is way faster. AFAIK this is already WIP.
> 
> Is not it past the WIP stage already? If you use any recent commit,
> please check it out and let me know if it does not work.
> 
>> Also if you move a footprint in the GAL you use the point under the
>> cursor as anchor (not the component origin) so most of the time the
>> component gets placed out of grid.
> 
> When you drag a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of its
> pads or the footprint origin. For multiple components the anchor is
> aligned to the grid, meaning that components will stay on the grid.
> 
> Am I missing something here?
> 
> Regards,
> Orson
> 

AFAIK, for me "old" issues related to the cursor and grid are fixed.

AFAIK, when moving a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of its
pads or the footprint origin, the nearest candidate point from mouse cursor.

Perhaps the algorithm should be slightly modified to use the pad if the mouse 
cursor is inside a
pad, and the footprint origin if the mouse cursor is inside the footprint 
(obviously), but not
inside a pad.

It could be a more intuitive behavior.

-- 
Jean-Pierre CHARRAS

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior

[Maciej Sumiński]

On 07/20/2017 12:37 PM, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:14:40PM +0200, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
>> What do you exactly mean regarding the cursor behavior?
> 
> For example the cursor moving on the grid and using space to take
> measurement is way faster. AFAIK this is already WIP.

Is not it past the WIP stage already? If you use any recent commit,
please check it out and let me know if it does not work.

> Also if you move a footprint in the GAL you use the point under the
> cursor as anchor (not the component origin) so most of the time the
> component gets placed out of grid.

When you drag a single footprint, the anchor point is either one of its
pads or the footprint origin. For multiple components the anchor is
aligned to the grid, meaning that components will stay on the grid.

Am I missing something here?

Regards,
Orson



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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior (was: Via tool in Pcbnew.)

[Lorenzo Marcantonio]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:14:40PM +0200, Maciej Sumiński wrote:
> What do you exactly mean regarding the cursor behavior?

For example the cursor moving on the grid and using space to take
measurement is way faster. AFAIK this is already WIP.

Also if you move a footprint in the GAL you use the point under the
cursor as anchor (not the component origin) so most of the time the
component gets placed out of grid.

-- 
Lorenzo Marcantonio


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Cursor behavior (was: Via tool in Pcbnew.)

[Maciej Sumiński]

Hi Lorenzo,

On 07/20/2017 12:04 PM, Lorenzo Marcantonio wrote:
[snip]
> However before junking it *please* implement everything on the new one
> (like the cursor behaviour which is way more useful to measure than the
> new tool in the GAL view)

What do you exactly mean regarding the cursor behavior?

Regards,
Orson




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