Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Sergey Borshch]

On 03.03.2016 16:26, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

On 3/1/2016 8:56 PM, Sergey Borshch wrote:

On 01.03.2016 15:23, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

I was under the impression
that the user was trying to delete a trace and a nearby footprint was
deleted rather than the trace.  That shouldn't happen without a
disambiguation menu.

So you'll get annoying menu every time you want to delete wire under
footprint in wire placement mode. I propose to add some intelligence:
let's current selected tool take precedence in selection. For example,
in wire placement mode if user press del key while pointing mouse cursor
to the wire under footprint, wire can be deleted without menu. If there
is only footprint under cursor - it can be deleted without menu. If
there more than one wire or more than one non-wire items (footprints or
footprint and drawing line or line and filled zone) under cursor - menu
appears. If there is more than one wire and another non-wire item(s)
under cursor - menu appears, but only wires shown.



This seems like a plausible solution but it still does not fix the
posters original issue.  If there is only a single object under the
cursor then it will be deleted not matter which tool or when no tool is
selected.
Sounds good, but what about object which is under cursor but have all 
visible parts outside the current visible area (unfilled copper pour or 
just footprint on some zoom levels)? User press Del key, nothing changes 
at the screen and only after some time user suddenly discover that his 
footprint or copper pour lost. That was a real situation which forced me 
to fill bug report #1538805 - *locked* footprints was *silently* deleted 
when all visible parts of it was outside the visible area.



 I do like the idea of using the currently selected tool as a
way to resolve some disambiguation situations.  Obviously this wont work
in every situation but it would be an improvement over the current solution.



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   Sergey A. Borshchmailto: sb...@users.sourceforge.net
 SB ELDI ltd. Riga, Latvia

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 3/1/2016 8:56 PM, Sergey Borshch wrote:
> On 01.03.2016 15:23, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>> I was under the impression
>> that the user was trying to delete a trace and a nearby footprint was
>> deleted rather than the trace.  That shouldn't happen without a
>> disambiguation menu.
> So you'll get annoying menu every time you want to delete wire under
> footprint in wire placement mode. I propose to add some intelligence:
> let's current selected tool take precedence in selection. For example,
> in wire placement mode if user press del key while pointing mouse cursor
> to the wire under footprint, wire can be deleted without menu. If there
> is only footprint under cursor - it can be deleted without menu. If
> there more than one wire or more than one non-wire items (footprints or
> footprint and drawing line or line and filled zone) under cursor - menu
> appears. If there is more than one wire and another non-wire item(s)
> under cursor - menu appears, but only wires shown.
> 

This seems like a plausible solution but it still does not fix the
posters original issue.  If there is only a single object under the
cursor then it will be deleted not matter which tool or when no tool is
selected.  I do like the idea of using the currently selected tool as a
way to resolve some disambiguation situations.  Obviously this wont work
in every situation but it would be an improvement over the current solution.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Sergey Borshch]

On 01.03.2016 15:23, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

I was under the impression
that the user was trying to delete a trace and a nearby footprint was
deleted rather than the trace.  That shouldn't happen without a
disambiguation menu.
So you'll get annoying menu every time you want to delete wire under 
footprint in wire placement mode. I propose to add some intelligence:
let's current selected tool take precedence in selection. For example, 
in wire placement mode if user press del key while pointing mouse cursor 
to the wire under footprint, wire can be deleted without menu. If there 
is only footprint under cursor - it can be deleted without menu. If 
there more than one wire or more than one non-wire items (footprints or 
footprint and drawing line or line and filled zone) under cursor - menu 
appears. If there is more than one wire and another non-wire item(s) 
under cursor - menu appears, but only wires shown.


--
Regards,
   Sergey A. Borshchmailto: sb...@users.sourceforge.net
 SB ELDI ltd. Riga, Latvia

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Bernhard Stegmaier]

On 2016-02-29 21:29, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

On 2/29/2016 3:25 PM, Tiger12506 wrote:

I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a
track that i didn't route correctly.

I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly
understand why someone would think that.


Perhaps, but Ctrl-Z is much faster than selecting the track tool,
deleting track(s), selecting the previous tool your were using to 
resume

your work just to prevent accidental deletes.


Of course, but that doesn't solve the original problem of deleting the
right thing.

So, this might end up in something like
Delete => Wrong => Ctrl-Z => Move mouse a little => Delete => Still 
Wrong

=> Ctrl-Z => Damn, move again => ...


Regards,
Bernhard

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 2/29/2016 4:29 PM, Tomasz Wlostowski wrote:
> On 29.02.2016 20:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>> At some point in our history, someone half way changed the default
>> behavior of the delete hot key in pcbnew (legacy canvas).  There is a
>> dubious albeit incomplete attempt to limit the delete hot key to the
>> currently selected tool.  When did we decide to that and who made that
>> decision?  This would explain why I cannot delete certain items when
>> certain tools (track and footprint) are selected.  I thought we were
>> working under the assumption having to constantly select the "correct"
>> tool to delete (or any other hotkey function for that matter) items
>> associated with that tool was not a good thing but rather a waste of
>> time.  One of the things I've always hated about other EDA packages was
>> the notion that I could only delete object if I had the tool for that
>> object type selected.  I'm really not interested in repeating behavior
>> in KiCad.  Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
>> selected tool is a good idea?
> 
> Hi Wayne,
> 
> In my opinion, it's justified in some cases (such as being able to
> quickly delete a track).
> 
> I checked the behaviour of the legacy canvas:
> - when in track mode, it only allows deleting tracks
> - when in footprint mode, it only allows deleting footprints
> - when in zone mode, it doesn't delete anything.

The zone tool deletes zones, you just have to have the cursor close to a
zone edge.

> 
> The delete hotkey handler is called in all cases. I guess the problem
> PCB_EDIT_FRAME::OnHotkeyDeleteItem(), although it hasn't been modified
> since 2014.

I noticed this a long time ago but just didn't feel up to arguing about
it.  Looking at the code in OnHotkeyDeleteItem() to fix this bug:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/kicad/+bug/1538805

made me a bit grumpy so I'm feeling a bit more inspired to defend my
point of view.  I'm going to change the behavior of this so all of the
tools work the same way in the legacy canvas as long as an object is not
being drawn.  We also need to take a look at our lock code.  I'm not
sure why we don't have a common lock flag in EDA_ITEM as opposed to only
a lock flag for footprints.  It seems to me we should be able to lock
any object and use parent/child relationship to ensure any child objects
(only pads at the moment) remain locked when the parent is locked.

> 
> Tom
> 
> PS. I'm working on adding similar functionality to the GAL - it's a bit
> more complex, because the P has a separate data model that needs to be
> synced up to the underlying BOARD object when a delete operation is
> performed.

I understand that but when you are not actually drawing tracks, I don't
see the value in having to exit the track tool to edit any other object.
 If I have the track tool selected and realize that I need to rotate or
flip a component to improve the layout, I don't want to have to select
the footprint tool, rotate or flip the component, select the track tool,
and then begin routing again.  I just want to hit the M or R key and get
on with my routing.

> 
> 
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Tomasz Wlostowski]

On 29.02.2016 20:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> At some point in our history, someone half way changed the default
> behavior of the delete hot key in pcbnew (legacy canvas).  There is a
> dubious albeit incomplete attempt to limit the delete hot key to the
> currently selected tool.  When did we decide to that and who made that
> decision?  This would explain why I cannot delete certain items when
> certain tools (track and footprint) are selected.  I thought we were
> working under the assumption having to constantly select the "correct"
> tool to delete (or any other hotkey function for that matter) items
> associated with that tool was not a good thing but rather a waste of
> time.  One of the things I've always hated about other EDA packages was
> the notion that I could only delete object if I had the tool for that
> object type selected.  I'm really not interested in repeating behavior
> in KiCad.  Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
> selected tool is a good idea?

Hi Wayne,

In my opinion, it's justified in some cases (such as being able to
quickly delete a track).

I checked the behaviour of the legacy canvas:
- when in track mode, it only allows deleting tracks
- when in footprint mode, it only allows deleting footprints
- when in zone mode, it doesn't delete anything.

The delete hotkey handler is called in all cases. I guess the problem
PCB_EDIT_FRAME::OnHotkeyDeleteItem(), although it hasn't been modified
since 2014.

Tom

PS. I'm working on adding similar functionality to the GAL - it's a bit
more complex, because the P has a separate data model that needs to be
synced up to the underlying BOARD object when a delete operation is
performed.


> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Nick Østergaard]

I usually just use the "Delete items" (trashcan icon) tool when I am
going to delete various items in an area.

But I don't ever rememer this behaivour being different at all.

2016-02-29 21:29 GMT+01:00 Wayne Stambaugh :
> On 2/29/2016 3:25 PM, Tiger12506 wrote:
>> I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a
>> track that i didn't route correctly.
>>
>> I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly
>> understand why someone would think that.
>
> Perhaps, but Ctrl-Z is much faster than selecting the track tool,
> deleting track(s), selecting the previous tool your were using to resume
> your work just to prevent accidental deletes.
>
>>
>> On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
> Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
> selected tool is a good idea?

>>
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Tiger12506]

On 2/29/2016 3:29 PM, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

On 2/29/2016 3:25 PM, Tiger12506 wrote:

I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a
track that i didn't route correctly.

I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly
understand why someone would think that.

Perhaps, but Ctrl-Z is much faster than selecting the track tool,
deleting track(s), selecting the previous tool your were using to resume
your work just to prevent accidental deletes.

True. I personally would probably go for something more like what Simon 
suggested. But I'm just one user out of thousands. :)


"""
in that case is it worth making the clarify menu used, and being able to 
select which one you want with a number key to avoid having to move the 
mouse and maybe order it in terms of whats most likely, aka most 
likely is track then label(s) and so forth


"""


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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Wayne Stambaugh]

He should be getting a disambiguation menu if there is more than one
object under the cursor when the delete hot key is pressed.  If not,
then that's a bug that I'm not aware of.

On 2/29/2016 3:30 PM, Simon Wells wrote:
> in that case is it worth making the clarify menu used, and being able
> to select which one you want with a number key to avoid having to move
> the mouse and maybe order it in terms of whats most likely, aka
> most likely is track then label(s) and so forth
> 
> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Tiger12506  wrote:
>> I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a track
>> that i didn't route correctly.
>>
>> I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly
>> understand why someone would think that.
>>
>> On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>
> Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
> selected tool is a good idea?


>>
>>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 2/29/2016 3:25 PM, Tiger12506 wrote:
> I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a
> track that i didn't route correctly.
> 
> I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly
> understand why someone would think that.

Perhaps, but Ctrl-Z is much faster than selecting the track tool,
deleting track(s), selecting the previous tool your were using to resume
your work just to prevent accidental deletes.

> 
> On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
 Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
 selected tool is a good idea?
>>>
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Simon Wells]

in that case is it worth making the clarify menu used, and being able
to select which one you want with a number key to avoid having to move
the mouse and maybe order it in terms of whats most likely, aka
most likely is track then label(s) and so forth

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Tiger12506  wrote:
> I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a track
> that i didn't route correctly.
>
> I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly
> understand why someone would think that.
>
> On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

 Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
 selected tool is a good idea?
>>>
>>>
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Tiger12506]

I'm always accidentally deleting components when trying to cleanup a 
track that i didn't route correctly.


I don't know if one is a good idea over the other, but I can certainly 
understand why someone would think that.


On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
selected tool is a good idea?





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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 2/29/2016 2:57 PM, Sergey Borshch wrote:
> On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:
>> Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
>> selected tool is a good idea?
> Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Really good idea is to make behaviour
> selectable.
> 

Give me an example of the sometimes yes.  I'm not opposed to making the
behaviors selectable but I'm not terribly interested in writing the
current tool selected behavior because I would never use it.  One thing
that I think we can all agree on is that it ought to be consistent no
matter which behavior we choose.  As of right now, when the track, zone,
or component tools are selected, you cannot delete (or any other hot key
for that matter) any other objects except those of the selected tool
object type.  For all other tools, you can delete, move, edit, etc.
anything by hot key when those tools are selected.  So in that regard, I
don't understand why the track, zone, and component tools are treated
differently.  No wonder users get confused using KiCad.  We seem to be
all over the map in terms of the behavior of the currently selected tool.

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Re: [Kicad-developers] Pcbnew delete hot key behavior.

[Sergey Borshch]

On 29.02.2016 21:41, Wayne Stambaugh wrote:

Does anyone really think limiting hot keys to the currently
selected tool is a good idea?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Really good idea is to make behaviour 
selectable.



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 SB ELDI ltd. Riga, Latvia

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