KR> building outer wing panels first

[Don Chisholm]

I built my outer panels with my Center spars in a roll over jig, using the 
AS504x airfoil templates and a lazer level makes it easy and accurate and doing 
the foam and glasswork is easier also because the work can be turned over to 
the best position to do it in. I also hot wire cut my foam cores from extruded 
styrofoam which made shaping the cores a snap to do and accurate also. I hate 
urethane foam and won't get into a debate about the pros and cons, I just know 
what I prefer. I found this method to be far superior to the way the plans 
suggest to build the plane as I built my KR1 religiously to the plans and have 
had plenty of time to think about how I wasn't going to do it the next time 
around

KR> N202RH sometimes they don't fly right out of the box

[Don Chisholm]

Cool
rahu...@peoplepc.com wrote:  Netters - this is going to be rather long and will 
contain content regarding the KR2 as LSA compliant - so be warned and delete 
now if you desire.
I feverently hope that we don't start an endless discussion but rather my 
objective is to add some datapoints that some of you may find interesting.

First a description and some history of N202RH.

A KR-2 with a RAF 48 wing with tips extended 18 inches to the same dimensions 
as a "Diehl" wing. Has a forward opening "Dragonfly" canopy and the first 
generation of Rands fixed gear, which were two piece aluminum legs that bolt to 
aluminum castings. Equipped with a Continental C-85 with the Starter and 
Generator removed and swinging a 60 x 64 Sterba prop. It currently weighs 696 
lbs. empty and dry (no fuel or oil) with a fuel capacity of 17.5 gals in one 
tank, I've set the gross weight at 1150 lbs.

Construction was started in October of 1985 and was originally built as a 
tri-gear with the main gear mounted on the rear of the main spar and a Rutan 
Long Eze nose gear strut and castering nose gear fitted. A local DAR signed it 
off in June 2002 - yes almost 17 years of construction and 3000+ hours. But we 
weren't finished yet. The more we ran the engine the more dissatisfied I became 
with the Eisleman mags - I rebuilt them with new points and coils but still had 
unacceptable drops so they were eventually replaced by Slicks and a new 
harness. That took us to 2003 - then while taxi testing the Long Eze strut 
collapsed doing minor damage to the cowling and destroying an absolutely 
beautiful Peery prop. So I carted the fuselage back to my home to re-group. The 
structure was inspected and found to be OK - the old nose gear was removed and 
a new more robust gear was designed around an early Lancair nose wheel assembly 
that I was given. All in all that took another year of my
 life before the trip back to the airport. It's now early July 2004 and things 
began to proceed a little faster. First flight was on 7/31/04 but was cut short 
by high engine temps - we were able to get them down to just under redline by 
opening the cowling intakes and tightening up the baffling a bit. We began to 
build hours somewhat slowly as we found that we didn't have enough up trim even 
with the CG in the middle of the envelope. Moving the battery from the firewall 
to the back of the seat helped but it became apparent that my nose wheel 
installation was causing the nose to pitch down and was most likely impeding 
the outflow of the engine cooling air. About this time (March 2005) fate struck 
again - my test pilot suffered an engine out and put the aircraft into a cow 
pasture off the end of the field after determining he wasn't going to clear 
power lines at the end of the runway. The good news is that he was unhurt and 
the new nose wheel held up - the bad news is that
 the main gear legs sheared the AN4 bolts that attached them to the castings. 
The departing right leg poked large holes in the underside of the center 
section and damaged the right flap. The left leg didn't depart but folded under 
doing similar damage to that side of the center section. After we got the plane 
back to it's hangar and up on saw horses and began the damage assessment we 
found no wood damage at all. The damage was limited to foam and glass. We also 
determined the cause of the engine stoppage - a cover on the fuel vent, located 
under the wing, was overlooked on the pre-flight - tanks don't feed well 
without air to replace the fuel. Total time 5 hrs.

At this point a decision was made to remove the nose gear, remount the main 
gear forward of the spar and install a tail wheel. (I know the exact reverse of 
most.) The main driver was to improve the cooling airflow and correct the drag 
on the nose, which was requiring a large nose up trim to fly level. Anyway new 
gear mounting brackets were fabricated out of 4130 and mounted on the front of 
the spar. The cast brackets spar mounting holes were off just enough when moved 
from the back of the left spar to the front of the right spar to require new 
brackets. The right flap was rebuilt and the foam between the center section 
wing spars and replaced with 1/16 ply. A tail wheel was mounted on the existing 
TW mount that was built in place during original construction as the tail tie 
down. The only new hole drilled in the structure during this conversion was for 
tail wheel spring mounting. The wings were thoroughly inspected for any damage 
and the right underside was found to have a
 rather large delamination so that section of the skin was removed and 
replaced. So after 15 months and new weight and balance we are ready to try 
again. On 6/24/06 N202RH flew again (same test pilot but he now religiously 
uses the provided check list) with much more manageable engine temps and an 
improved trim range. As of 12/23/06 we now have 25.7 hrs of mostly trouble free 
flying. Kind of slow progress by some but 

KR> 4 cylinder Continental engine mount

[Don Chisholm]

just thought I'd pass this along, the KR engine mount for HAPI engines matches 
the 4 cylinder Continental engine mount pattern. In November Buddy Midkiff / 
c.midk...@verizon.net offered up his project for sale and had one of these 
engine mounts for sale for $175. Just my opinion but it would save someone some 
hours of figuring and work that's using a 4 cylinder Continental

KR> 0 200 continental

[Don Chisholm]

Look on Barnstormers, there's tons of stuff available also consider an 0 235 
Lycoming (I'm partial to these engines) stronger engine around the same weight

KR> 0 200 continental

[Don Chisholm]

depends on what you're willing to settle for I suppose

Larry Flesner  wrote:  At 12:21 PM 12/26/2006, you 
wrote:
>Look on Barnstormers, there's tons of stuff available also consider 
>an 0 235 Lycoming (I'm partial to these engines) stronger engine 
>around the same weight
++

The 0-235 Lycoming will also have higher parts cost, i.e., cylinders, etc.

Larry Flesner


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KR> C65? Continental

[Don Chisholm]

Brian Kraut turned me on to this website, look on the Bowers flybaby website 
you'll probably find everything you need to know about 4 cylinder Continentals 

KR> How about a 4016 magneto?

[Don Chisholm]

I would just use it, if not offer it for sale to someone that would 

Marc Lee Winnig  wrote:  > If I remember correctly the 
4000 series Slick mags are throw away Mags Sounds like I should just toss it 
now! What do you suggest? (I would like to go with a dual magneto/dual-plug 
setup anyway). Thinking of calling GP, as they specifically say they can 
upgrade/rebuild my HAPI). Thinking new dual plug heads are in the picture. Marc 
Lee Winnig 

mlwin...@hotmail.com 

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KR> RE: Warp 3-blade

[Don Chisholm]

I hate to be a party pooper here but you'll know if it's the old Rand Three 
blade prop because it'll have a plastic hub and the hubs do crack.   

Marc Lee Winnig  wrote:  Is it wood or composite? (I have 
a 3-blade ground-adjustable wood prop, apparently by Rand).Marc Lee Winnig

mlwin...@hotmail.com

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KR> slick 4016 mags

[Don Chisholm]

It's my understanding that Slick produced the throw away series Mags to produce 
a magneto that you could purchase for what it would cost you to overhaul one 
for and they're of the same quality as the later infield repairable ones. They 
weren't meant to be taken apart

KR> Props

[Don Chisholm]

I don't know if my thinking is flawed here but out of the dark recesses of my 
brain I seem to remember a 1 bladed prop from WW2 that the Germans were playing 
with, with a counterweight for balance. It seems to me that you can argue the 
points of multiple blades versus 2 blades seems to me to be getting down to a 
matter of opinion. If there was a 1 bladed prop I wonder what the advantages 
were there
Randy Smith  wrote:  I am not sure what book you refer to but 
everything
being equal a 2 bladed prop will perform better than a
3 bladed prop. A prop disturbs the air in front of it
as it comes around and a 3 bladed prop disturbs more
air. The perfect prop would only have one blade. The
three bladed prop is quieter and smother than a 2
bladed Prop. There are a lot of High performance
engines like an IO-520 on Vikings,Cessna 210,Piper and
a lot of other High performance aircraft That come
from the factory with a 2 Bladed prop. Talk to a prop
shop and they will explain the differences. Some
planes come with a 3 blade prop because of ground
clearance, Some folks like them because they look
good.

--- Colin Rainey 
wrote:

> Theoretically a 3 bladed prop that is pitched the
> same as a 2 bladed (same
> manufacturer is best) and is the same disc area of
> length, the 3 bladed
> should make approximately 17% more thrust than the 2
> bladed, or behave like
> the same 2 bladed prop but 17% longer. I cannot
> recall the author's name
> right off, but if interested I will look up the book
> and post it here. The
> author's formula in my specific case said that my 3
> bladed prop at 54 inches
> would perform just like a 2 bladed of the same pitch
> that was 58 inches long
> (.93 times the 2 blade length). As has been stated
> here many times, there
> are several factors that go into prop selection,
> number of blades and pitch
> only two of them.
> 
> However, I will make some generic observations for
> the group that apply to
> those that are beginning to push towards higher
> horsepower and torque
> engines:
> 1) Multi-bladed props climb better than 2 bladed
> props, as a rule.
> 2) Multi-bladed props are known to be easier to
> balance, and inherently
> more balanced (two sources confirm this).
> 3) Multi-bladed props tend to be a little to much
> quieter than 2 blades in
> operation.
> 4) Higher HP aircraft almost always use
> multi-bladed props; I am deducing
> because they cannot swing a 2 bladed prop long
> enough to handle all the
> torque they have, and convert it to thrust (this may
> be of interest to
> 3100cc Corvair guys etc...).
> 
> We happen to be small aircraft that some people are
> beginning to experiment
> with higher HP engines, but still have the problem
> of ground clearance, so
> the answer? Multi-blades...
> I too will be running a 3 blade Warp Drive once I
> settle on which engine I
> will install (already have the prop).
> 
> Colin Rainey
> brokerpi...@bellsouth.net
> 
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KR> Slick 4216 Mag

[Don Chisholm]

use it

mtmcgo...@aol.com wrote:  Everything I've read on here about the 4216 is not 
good. The KR-2 that I'm 
restoring has one, the last owner says it worked fine. Should I trash it and 
buy a 4316 or what? 

Mike McGowan N4288C
_mtmcgowan@aol.com_ (mailto:mtmcgo...@aol.com) 
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KR> Engine - Revmaster 2100 or 2180

[Don Chisholm]

If I remember my #'s correctly a 2180 has a bore of 92 mm and stroke of 82mm, a 
2276 is 94mm bore 82 mm stroke and the Revmaster engine is 90.5mm bore with 
82mm stroke and I believe 2015 CC'sBenjamin Copeland  
wrote:  Does this mean the 2100 engine on Revmaster's site is actually a 
2180cc? I 
couldn't find that in their specs.
I've been talking to someone about a Revmaster 2100 and going on the 
assumption it is 2100cc
just like the web site... bad assumption?

How does the GP 2180 compare to a Revmaster 2100 (w/ Ellison carb)?

http://revmasteraviation.com/products/r2100_engine/index.htm

Ben Copeland
just2...@together.net

- Original Message - 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: KR> Engine


> Hello, does anybody know what hp a revmaster B-2180 dual ignition is ???


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KR> slick 4216 magneto

[Don Chisholm]

Anyone looking for an inexpensive magnetro for a VW engine? There's one on ebay 
that you should be able to pick up cheap

KR> 0 200 Continental cowlings

[Don Chisholm]

Thanks Jim; I'm searching for a friend of mine and will forward your email to 
him

JIM RALEIGH <drale...@ktis.net> wrote:  Don my cowling came from a citabria 
with 0200. The top is a perfect fit. I
had to cut out a 8" pie shaped peice out of the center of the bottom and it
fits very well.
Some of those cowlings are available used. If I was looking for one I
would get on "Citabria pilots" on AOL. New ones can be bought from Wag
Aero. The advantage of them is that they have large aluminum doors that
allow access to almost the whole engine without de cowling.
- Original Message - 
From: "Don Chisholm" 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 5:17 AM
Subject: KR> 0 200 Continental cowlings


> Is there an 0 200 Continental cowling available for KR2s
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KR> How about a 4016 magneto?

[Don Chisholm]

If I remember correctly the 4000 series Slick mags are throw away Mags
"Brian G. Douglas"  wrote:  If it's working, and you can get a 
good spark just keep it till about 500 
hrs. Then it is due for an overhaul. You might look up any ad's that were 
applied to your magneto. Just do a google search keywords something like " 
magneto, bendix, 4016 AD". As I remember there is a problem with the coil 
in the mag and the replacement is about 200 or so $. Also the check that 
the impulse coupling snaps when you turn the mag by hand. Do this very 
sparingly as the electricity has to go some where and it is hard on the mag. 
Or just ground out the "P" lead to the mag case

just my 2 cents, bad spelling and poor grammar and all
Brian G. Douglas
N8575C KR2 w/nose wheel
Killeen Texas

- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lee Winnig" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:33 PM
Subject: KR> How about a 4016 magneto?


>>> If it is 4216 mag DON'T DO IT!!! So I have to ask... what about 
>>> the 4016 which came with my KR2. Do I need to lose it??? Thanks! 
>>> Marc Lee Winnig
>
> mlwin...@hotmail.com
>
> (815) 301-5011 Cell and Vonage
> (801) 749-9460 FAX
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KR> Retractable Gear?

[Don Chisholm]

See if you can find the Charles Wells Gear latch system in the archives. What 
it is is a spring loaded pin lock system that self latches and aligns with 2 
positions for up and down and the pilot operates a lever to pull the pins out 
and manually pushes or pulls the gear up or down and the spring loaded pins 
automatically load themselves in the holes. It uses a 1/4 circle plate with the 
latch holes drilled in it

Lee Van Dyke  wrote:  http://vandyke5.com/landing gear.htm

Take a look at my set up, I have had a couple of hard landing and taxied 
accross some rough area and no collapse

Lee Van Dyke


- Original Message - 
From: "Marc Lee Winnig" 
To: "KR" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: KR> Retractable Gear?


My recently acquired and "nearly done" KR2 has retractable gear, which I 
must assume is "old style". It does, however, have a safety latch to keep 
it from accidently collapsing due to rough taxiing or just an accidental 
release, as it take two levers to retract the gear. Anyone know more about 
this setup? Is it still subject to the same issues? "Hard landings" are, of 
course a relative term. The example cited seems pretty extreme (a panicked 
pilot fighting the co-pilot for control). I'd be more interested in more 
"normal operations" info.. Thanks! Marc Lee Winnig

mlwin...@hotmail.com

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KR> 0 200 Continental cowlings

[Don Chisholm]

Is there an 0 200 Continental cowling available for KR2s 

KR> discouraging

[Don Chisholm]

What you ran across was a dynosaur, I had one tell me one time that they had a 
homebuilt at their airport one time fortunately it crashed and then proceeded 
to lecture me as you got lectured, meanwhile he had a ratty old Cessna 172 that 
looked like it hadn't been flown in years. He reached his height, don't take 
what he said to heart and don't let him bring you down. When Ken Rand did his 
first flight on his KR1 he only had 35 hrs. total time

Rick and Pam  wrote:  Heres my story to date. I bought a KR2 
last month from grand rapids Mi 
(Im in Defiance Ohio). basicly it needed a seat and all the small things 
that these planes need. so Ive been working on it for a month now and I 
figured I would take it to the local airport and rent a small hanger so 
I could mount the wings and do some taxi testing, well as luck would 
have it 2 hangars down is THE local eaa guy,(white beard,eaa tech rep, 
ap mech, 2 taildraggers sitting in his hangar) basicly the whole 
package, so Im thinking man what a great resource 2 hangars down from 
me. I go down and introduce myself and tell him my story and he proceeds 
to tell me in short that unless I have 5 to 10 thousand hours of 
taildragger time that I shouldn't attempt to fly the kr2. He then went 
on and on about why I should buy a cessna 150 cause as a certified 
aircraft. I would be able to just "fly it" (that would be the only thing 
I could do to it) To top it all off he then lets me know that the last 
thing we need is someone crashing on the runway.wouldn't do our 
Image any good he says, Now Im no idiot and I know that Im not Tom 
Cruise in top gun, as a matter of fact Im not even a pilot as of yet 
{although Im working on it} I know when Im talking to someone with a 
lot more experiance than me to listen but I got to believe that this guy 
really doesn't like home built aircraft ,which is what I thought the eaa 
was all about.He practicly had me talked intoselling it before I left.On 
the way home I realized that this was the type of guy that made me look 
at experimentals to start with...I understand I need some taildragger 
time , I understand it will require maintenance, I understand that 
things go wrong, I accept these as challenges to be overcome. WHAT I 
DONT EXCEPT IS PEOPLE TELLING ME I CANT DO IT. anyways I just had to vent

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KR> Help / wiring diagram

[Don Chisholm]

In a lot of cases it's easier to rewire than figure out someone elses mess

Larry Flesner  wrote:  At 11:39 PM 12/10/2006, you 
wrote:
> I need a wiring diagram for a KR, can anyone help?
> Mike
>___
I will need a few days to sort through things and see.If not,
I will need one too!Thanks!Marc Lee Winnig
+

Unfortunately there is no single wiring diagram that anyone
can send you. Every KR will be different. If you're building
you will have to draw one up as you go. For a KR already
built you will have to figure it out as you go when troubleshooting
a circuit. Check out the site that Dan Heath posted and also
check the archives for hundreds of posts on the subject. The
plans give a "suggested" wiring diagram but again, each KR
will be different. Get a copy of Tony Bingelis' books if you don't
already have them as they are a good source and are easy
to understand. If you are "electrically challenged", find someone
in the local EAA chapter that can help you out.

Good luck

Larry Flesner


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KR> props

[Don Chisholm]

there's  a problem with harmonics with ground adjustable props and VW 
crankshafts and they break cranks
Solly Melyon  wrote:  Myron,
Could you elaborate on why not on a VW engine?
Thanks,
Solly

"Myron (Dan) Freeman" wrote:
No! Not on a V W engine. I already checked into it.

- Original Message - 
From: "Pete Diffey" 

To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: KR> props


> Hi,
> 
> After seeing Mark Gorlov's question. I got thinking about my prop, and 
> I got talking to a colleague at work who flies G-UTSI . He has a Warp 
> drive ground abjustable prop - which the UK PFA have approved.
> 
> Have any of you guys got experience with these props ? I would like to 
> get a wider view before I go buying one.
> 
> Can they be hand swung.
> 
> They seem very good value, a british wooden 2 blade prop will generally 
> cost around 300 GBP - which at the current exch rate is almost $600, so 
> the warpdrive - with all the benefits of close tolerance manufacture 
> plus adjustability looks like it could give me improved performance. The 
> warpdrive comes out at less than $500 delivered.
> 
> What do you guys think ?
> 
> Pete
> 
> 
> 
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KR> RE: Wood Prop Question

[Don Chisholm]

A good friend of mine had a wood prop on his Spezio and flew through a shower 
with it without any leading edge protection. He probably only had 80% of his 
prop left. He switched to a metal prop and the wood prop made a nice wall 
hanging after he decoratively refinished it 
Marc Lee Winnig  wrote:  By "OBLITERATING" do you mean 
that you wouldn't want to fly with it again, or that you were lucky to be able 
to land with the thing in the first place (or something in between)??? Marc Lee 
Winnig mlwin...@hotmail.com (815) 301-5011 Cell and Vonage (801) 749-9460 FAX 

> From: n5...@hiwaay.net> To: kr...@mylist.net> Subject: Re: KR> My Purchase of 
> KR-2 in Iowa! - Wood Prop Question> Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:51:28 -0600> > 
> Marc Lee Winnig wrote:> > > One wood prop question... I hear they don't like 
> running in the rain. > > Just how serious is that limitation? (Are we talking 
> anything above a > > mist, heavy downpour, or what?).> > You'll probably hear 
> some good stories on this thread, but I can tell you > that my Sensenich with 
> urethane leading edge has seen a few hours of light > and moderate rain with 
> no noticeable effect. But on the other hand I've > heard stories of folks 
> flying into heavy rain and obliterating the prop in a > matter of minutes.> > 
> Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama> see KR2S project N56ML at 
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford> email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net> > > 
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KR> RE:adjustable props

[Don Chisholm]

>From what I understand about ground adjustable props and VW cranks, you 
>probably wouldn't make it to 500 HRs 

benji mosley  wrote:  I agree with everyone else,don't do 
it.Even though it can be done using Great Plains rear drive,it's not worth the 
extra effort or weight.The rear drive set up can add up to 50 pounds depending 
on set up.Sterba or Senseich are the best in my opinion.Please search the 
archives for ideas on diameter and pitch.If you must have an adjustable prop,I 
recommend a tear down every 500 hours to check the crank.I have built good many 
VW engines and the crank is the weakest link.A VW crankshaft,including 
aftermarket crankshafts can not take much vibration before they fail.This is my 
opinion.Use your best judgment and do a lot of research before you step outside 
of the tried and trued methods.
Ben Mosley
ben_2...@yahoo.com






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KR> Premium Aircraft Parts

[Don Chisholm]

just a heads up to the group that are putting together production engines for 
their machines. Avoid this company like the plague, I got stung on a complete  
set of rings for an 0 235 Lycoming engine I put together and contacted 
Barnstormers about them where I seen their adds and was informed that they 
dropped them because of many complaints and will be contacting my credit card 
company also. So beware

KR> Premium Aircraft Parts

[Don Chisholm]

That's in the subject title Premium Aircraft Parts, I feel sorry for anyone 
that tried buying an engine from them they only got me for a bit

steve winter <ghettoboy_98...@hotmail.com> wrote:  Sorry Don---I didn't See the 
companies NAME Mentioned any where here !! 
Chris


>From: Don Chisholm 
>Reply-To: KRnet 
>To: kr...@mylist.net
>Subject: KR> Premium Aircraft Parts
>Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:26:02 -0500 (EST)
>
>just a heads up to the group that are putting together production engines 
>for their machines. Avoid this company like the plague, I got stung on a 
>complete set of rings for an 0 235 Lycoming engine I put together and 
>contacted Barnstormers about them where I seen their adds and was informed 
>that they dropped them because of many complaints and will be contacting my 
>credit card company also. So beware
>___
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s

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KR> Premium Aircraft Parts

[Don Chisholm]

Yes the companys title is Premium Aircraft Parts in Arkasas
Ed Janssen <ejans...@chipsnet.com> wrote:  In the subject line - Premium 
Aircraft Parts

Ed

Ed Janssen
mailto:ejans...@chipsnet.com
- Original Message - 
From: "steve winter" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: KR> Premium Aircraft Parts


> Sorry Don---I didn't See the companies NAME Mentioned any where here !!
> Chris
>
>
> >From: Don Chisholm 
> >Reply-To: KRnet 
> >To: kr...@mylist.net
> >Subject: KR> Premium Aircraft Parts
> >Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 11:26:02 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >just a heads up to the group that are putting together production engines
> >for their machines. Avoid this company like the plague, I got stung on a
> >complete set of rings for an 0 235 Lycoming engine I put together and
> >contacted Barnstormers about them where I seen their adds and was
informed
> >that they dropped them because of many complaints and will be contacting
my
> >credit card company also. So beware
> >___
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> s
>
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>
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>
>
>






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KR> Re: fuselage question

[Don Chisholm]

you know if you go into the archives this is a question that keeps coming up. 
and it doesn't matter, you're going to get a banana boat no matter what you do 
. As soon as you pinch the tail in to the tail post, your sides are not going 
to be flat to your leveled table no matter if you laid your longerons straight 
or not. It's a fact of life. and you could work it out to try to make the top 
longeron straight which it wouldn't be in reality. There are a couple thousand 
banana boat KRs flying that fly straight. Rather than get hung up on whether 
the fuselage top longeron is straight, the consideration is whether the engine 
is straight on a lateral line and the wing and tail incidences are as they 
should be to an established lateral line. You could go the the rocket science 
route or just do what's worked for all the successfully flying KRs that have 
been flying for more than 30 years now. If you get hung up on details like 
whether  the top longerons are straight or not ,you'll
 never finish your airplane. Do what has worked for many others before you, 
it's all in established lines and is all based on X,Y,Z axis. My 2 cents worth 
and by no means the definitive answerMartindale Family 
 wrote:  Hi Noel

It's a geometric fact. Imagine a playing card stood up on a flat table along 
its edge. Flex the ends and then tilt it.The centre raises off the table. 
Either work with it, leave your sides at right angles or, as some have done, 
adjust your fuselage uprights to create a curved longeron that becomes 
straight when you stand it up and tilt it for the taper. I think Mark 
Langford's site might have the lengths of the uprights needed to achieve 
this.or search our archives. Most people just live with the banana and 
use a right angle to their firewall as a fixed reference to work off.

John Martindale
29 Jane Circuit
TOORMINA NSW 2452
AUSTRALIA

phone: 61 2 66584767 (H)
61 2 66869075 (W)
mobile: 0403 049990
email: johnja...@optusnet.com.au
web: www.members.optusnet.com.au/johnjanet/Martindale.htm

- Original Message - 
From: "Noel Bong" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 4:47 AM
Subject: KR> Re: fuselage question


> Greetings! KR gurus,
> I am trying to put the fuse sides together with a taper bottom. It is 
> upside down on the table, is it normal that the middle section of the 
> longerons are lifting up from the table top for about 1" or so, this means 
> there will be a dip on the middle section of both longerons when the fuse 
> is turn rightside up? Do I have to force them to be perfectly flat on the 
> table? I'm afraid I might break them if I do that.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Noel Bong
> Anaheim, CA
> noel_gene...@yahoo.com
>
>
>
> Truly,
>
> Noel Bong
>
>
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KR> (no subject)

[Don Chisholm]

if you want a definitive answer go on the manufacturers website and if your 
answer is not there, there will be a phone # listed. Phone them and ask them. 
There is no set answer for every resin as some only have a years shelf life 

mplane...@aol.com wrote:  Here's a question for the net. I looked in the 
archive for info on epoxy 
shelf life, but didn't find much. My concern is knowing that the epoxy is safe 
to 
use or not. I purchased all the materials to build my KR2 in '97 and that gave 
me a lot of time for the epoxy to sit. I have completed the tail section 
without too much problem, but if the resin is stored for an extended period as 
is 
now it crystallizes and requires slow heating to decrystalize it. I also am 
needing a better more confident method of mixing the correct ratio on the Dow 
system 330 from Wicks. Should I scrap the 6 remaining gallons and use something 
else or just buy some new hardener or any other suggestions would be 
appreciated.
>>PS Mark L., do you still have your original Type 4. I am considering 
strongly using one instead of the 2180, estimated to install next summer.
Mike Simpson
Hillsborough NC
mplane...@aol.com
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KR> (no subject)

[Don Chisholm]

I think this is a case of what you feel comfortable with as there are pros and 
cons to any debate on this subject. You would always be wondering whether you 
should have bit the bullet and bought new resin or not, it may work out and it 
may not. Maybe the thing to do is experiment with what you have to put your 
mind at ease

Harry James  wrote:  West did some testing on their 
epoxy that had been on the shelf for over 
ten years. Viscosity was higher and strength was the same or higher.

HJ

mplane...@aol.com wrote:
> Here's a question for the net. I looked in the archive for info on epoxy 
> shelf life, but didn't find much. My concern is knowing that the epoxy is 
> safe to 
> use or not. I purchased all the materials to build my KR2 in '97 and that 
> gave 
> me a lot of time for the epoxy to sit. I have completed the tail section 
> without too much problem, but if the resin is stored for an extended period 
> as is 
> now it crystallizes and requires slow heating to decrystalize it. I also am 
> needing a better more confident method of mixing the correct ratio on the Dow 
> system 330 from Wicks. Should I scrap the 6 remaining gallons and use 
> something 
> else or just buy some new hardener or any other suggestions would be 
> appreciated.
> 
>>> PS Mark L., do you still have your original Type 4. I am considering 
>>> 
> strongly using one instead of the 2180, estimated to install next summer.
> Mike Simpson
> Hillsborough NC
> mplane...@aol.com
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>
> 


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KR> Aileron trailing edge question

[Don Chisholm]

I don't take myself as being any kind of expert on the subject of aerodynamics 
but I've been around for a bit asking dumb questions when I've had the 
opportunity to pick brains of knowledgeable people and maybe this will stir the 
cauldron and get a response from some of the wizards that subscribe to this 
line. It has been my understanding that cutting the trailing edge blunt allows 
a plenum chamber effect that allows the upper surface low pressure fast moving 
slip stream to mix better with the high pressure slow slipstream from the 
bottom surface and produces a less tubulent wake field if only maginally and 
less induced drag. Go ahead guys inform me of the error of my ways. Don C John 
Bouyea  wrote:  I have a question about the thickness of 
the tailing edge section. This
photo of Richard Shirley's trailing edge shows a blunt profile.
http://www.bouyea.net/gathering2004/P1002293.jpg 



The Cirrus people told me this is done to improve the feel at higher rates
of speed. (Interestingly, both Cirrus and Richard have aluminum ailerons.)
Most of the KRs I have seen have very thin (i.e. sharp) trailing edge
sections.



Does anyone know definitively about what this type of change might do to the
standard RAF airfoil?



John Bouyea

KR2/ Hillsboro, Oregon

http://www.bouyea.net 



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KR> Aileron trailing edge question

[Don Chisholm]

The gentleman that inspected my KR1 for it's prepaint inspection ( it's a 
Canadian thing) figured when he seen my blunt trailing edges on my wing that 
the slip stream wouldn't know the difference. Sounded good to me

Larry Flesner  wrote:  
> This
>photo of Richard Shirley's trailing edge shows a blunt profile.
>http://www.bouyea.net/gathering2004/P1002293.jpg
>The Cirrus people told me this is done to improve the feel at higher rates
>of speed. (Interestingly, both Cirrus and Richard have aluminum ailerons.)
>Most of the KRs I have seen have very thin (i.e. sharp) trailing edge
>sections.
>John Bouyea


I read years ago why designers went to a blunt trail edge but don't recall
the exact reasons. I seem to recall something about keeping the boundary
layer attached better or something. Many of the newer design aerobatic
aircraft have blunt trailing edges. Check out the "One Design" series.
Most all of the jets I refuel , Citations, etc., all seem to have 
blunt trail edges
on the wing and aileron of at least 1/4 to 3/8 inch.

All my trail edges on wings, ailerons, rudder, and elevator, all have 1/8 inch
rounded trail edges of flox and resin sanded to shape. They perform well
and so far little if any damage from handling. I'd stay away from too thin
trail edges for damage control and ease of building with the thicker ones
if nothing else. To build a straight trail edge, glass one side of the wing.
Sand the trail edge straight with a long sanding board then rotate and glass
the other side leaving the trail edge the thickness you want in the sanding
of the foam. Sand the second side glass to match the first. Using a small
Dremel tool wire brush or equivalent, hog out the foam approx 3/8 of an inch.
Fill the void left with resin rich flox, let cure and sand to the 
shape you want.

Larry Flesner




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KR> Aileron trailing edge question

[Don Chisholm]

I chopped my trailing so I wouldn't have as big a mass balance weight on my 
ailerons. They can be big and ugly
James c Ferris  wrote:  I believe you can increase the 
thickness to about one percent of the
chord without adversily changing the performance. When we were developing
the supercritical airfoil for transonic performance gaines we increased
the trailing edge to about .075 chord without reducing the performance,
this was mostly for structural reasons.
Jim 
On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 08:06:53 -0800 "John Bouyea" 
writes:
> I have a question about the thickness of the tailing edge section. 
> This
> photo of Richard Shirley's trailing edge shows a blunt profile.
> http://www.bouyea.net/gathering2004/P1002293.jpg 
> 
> 
> 
> The Cirrus people told me this is done to improve the feel at higher 
> rates
> of speed. (Interestingly, both Cirrus and Richard have aluminum 
> ailerons.)
> Most of the KRs I have seen have very thin (i.e. sharp) trailing 
> edge
> sections.
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone know definitively about what this type of change might 
> do to the
> standard RAF airfoil?
> 
> 
> 
> John Bouyea
> 
> KR2/ Hillsboro, Oregon
> 
> http://www.bouyea.net 
> 
> 
> 
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> 


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KR> Virgil

[Don Chisholm]

Virgil; You're having a hell of a time convincing people it wasn't you

mitch hargin  wrote:  Glad you survived Virgil. You will need 
the landing strip for the Space Shuttle if you keep up speeds of 90 over the 
numbers. Like the others have said get the speed down to 70 or less over the 
numbers and you should be ok. Good Luck.
Mitch


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KR> Shipping Engines

[Don Chisholm]

My friend Darryl Gilbert ( Gilbert Custom Aircraft) buys aircraft engines on a 
fairly regular basis that come from all over North America and they are just 
shipped on pallets
Charles Buddy & Cheryl Midkiff  wrote:  I have a couple 
engines complete with accessories for sale. A type 1 and a 
type 4. My question has to do with the best way to crate and ship these 
when the time comes. My thought was to secure them to a small pallet and 
then box them in. I'm sure open for any suggestions though. Maybe I should 
check with Steve Bennett also.


Bud Midkiff KR2 Stretched
Lynnwood, WA
email: c.midk...@verizon.net
my webpages: http://mysite.verizon.net/res18ums/index.html


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KR> finish work

[Don Chisholm]

that also works if you mist black over your high build primer coat and will 
show high spots and low spots by what you sand off

bearlk...@aol.com wrote:  from "finishing a composite airplane" 



"I strongly recommend spraying a light coat of black primer, before you start 
filling, Even thou this step is not absolutely necessary it is very helpful 
in guiding where to direct more sanding and when to change to finer sandpaper 
grade. The filler becomes translucent as it gets thinner and the black color 
starts showing through as dark spots indicating you are getting close to the 
skin surface.""


I mix blue pthalate dye with my filler for the same reason. I question the 
idea of having primer in the middle of layers of epoxy. Probably very minor.
Bob P.
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KR> Flox

[Don Chisholm]

what I've been using for filler is Milled fibers and is a good alternative to 
flox with it's own unique properies. What it is is high density short glass 
fibers that when mixed with resin makes a jelly like putty and has high shear 
strength.  The claim is when it's mixed with a thickening filler such as 
Cabosil makes a structural putty with high bonding strength. The description of 
Cabosil is it's hydrophobic fumed silica powder which is Greek to me  but just 
in case anyone asksColin Rainey  wrote:  Filling 
with flox is fine. Barry Kruyssen

I have also used flox several times all over the plane to fill or cover,
repair. To add to the gripping power of the flox and make the final surface
smooth and easy to primer and paint, I would mix up the flox to almost
"soupy" and then apply to the area to be filled and repaired. Then I would
come back with an oversized piece of Deck Cloth, and pat it in place over
all of the flox with dry cloth overhanging the edges to be sanded away
later. This completely covered the repair area, giving some grip to the flox
while it cured and gave me a much smoother area once cured to finish. If the
area was larger than 1/2 inch circle, then I would use 2 or even 3 layers of
deck cloth. Not using any additional epoxy allowed me to keep the weight
down. I would just pat the cloth in place with the same wooden tongue
depressor after applying the flox. The cloth soaks up the excess epoxy and
also prevents it from running (or at least not as bad). This method with
slightly dryer flox works even upside down. I did this on the bolt ends that
protruded through the fuselage for mounting my bellcrank for the elevator
pushrod. Came out very smooth and sanded and primed easy.

Colin Rainey
brokerpi...@bellsouth.net

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KR> Fuselage weight question

[Don Chisholm]

and composite work that needs lots of filler to make it look good

Jamie Duff  wrote:  My personal thoughts are that 
there is virtually nothing to the fuselage
structure anyway, and certainly nothing which can be safely omitted from the
plans which are fairly minimal anyway. The fuselage structure as drawn
weighs very little as it is - the problem is everything that gets bolted to
it!

Jamie
(Weight challenged UK builder who's determined to get his 2 seat cert!)


-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+jamieduff1981=btinternet@mylist.net
[mailto:krnet-bounces+jamieduff1981=btinternet@mylist.net] On Behalf Of
Red
Sent: 24 October 2006 18:28
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Fuselage weight question

My question is, Has anyone tried to reduce (lower) the
turtledeck in size...i.e. more like the KR1? It seems
logical that you should be able to lower the taper,
give more bubble effect (increase rearward visibility)
from the canopy and reduce weight?



--- "Myron (Dan) Freeman" 
wrote:

> Try this
> 
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/ebarros/
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike johnson" 
> To: 
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:05 PM
> Subject: KR> Fuselage weight question
> 
> 
> > Does anyone know of any builder that ended up with
> an unusually light 
> > weight fuselage? I searched
> > the archives and had some trouble finding any
> isolated information on what 
> > to expect for weight
> > with no engine. I would like to beat the average
> if I could.
> >
> > Thanks a bunch, Mike Johnson
> >
> > ___
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RED 


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KR> V.W. engine identification

[Don Chisholm]

Actually they sold their engine business to Mosler and my understanding is they 
went bankrupt on the rest of the business. I caught wind of the prototype 
Cygnet in North Carolina that a bank in Arizona that financed HAPI owned from 
the forclosure of their business that I could have acquired cheap but at that 
time  Canadian regulations regarding homebuilts from the US made it not 
feasible. Now I guess Mosler has gone by the wayside too. I bought parts from 
HAPI and they were terrible to get parts from. I waited for 7 to 8 months and a 
couple hundred tries on the phone to get them to ship me a cylinder and piston 
set and was only too happy when Steve Bennett from Great Plains aircraft supply 
came on the scene as he shipped promptly as he does to the day. I don't think 
they had a litigation issue I think it was too big for them to handle. Before 
HAPI guys doing VW engines were on their own. Revmaster was buildingengines but 
were expensive and there wasn't any easily attained
 info for us neophytes on how to build an engine until Rex Taylor put out his 
book " HOW TO BUILD A RELIABLE VW AIRCRAFT ENGINE"  By the way type 1 and type 
3 engines are principly the same engine, type type 1 engine was configured for 
the upright fan and the type 3 was configured as a pancake engine.   

Louis Staalberg <n...@cbiwireless.com> wrote:  Virg wrote:"Is the serial number 
still on the engine?"
Answ.: Yes. I have the following numbers on the case.
AS41,22M,V.W logo in circle, 043.101.101A
Thanks Virg.

Don Chisholm wrote:"HAPI didn't believe in "Stroker V.W.'s"
Answ.: That threw me as I did not have a clue what a "Stroker" engine was! 
However, Google educated me in a hurry.HAPI literature at the time stated that 
HAPI used only
new parts so you are right, he probably bought case and
parts and "souped up the engine" It did not come out of a used car!

R Eason Sr wrote:"Yours may be a type 3" Thanks Ron for
info and commentary.

Oldbiker wrote:"Sounds very much like a type 1"
Thanks Ray.

Albert Cassar wrote:"Best way of telling if it is Tpe 4 is the
exhaust on the bottom of the head..."
Answ.: I have four individual cylinders.Could be HAPI had them made special. 
So, can't really tell.
Thanks Albert

J.Milland wrote:"Type 4 has aluminum cases;Type 1 has magnesium"
Answ.: Well, hard for me to tell!
Thanks John.

Randy Smith wrote:"I met Rex Taylors son and daughter at OSH.."
Answ.: Yes I talked to Rex at the time when I heard he had
some engine failures and asked if it was applicable to mine and his answer was
that mine was a "totally different engine" and the problems were not related to 
my engine.
I believe he tried to come out with an 82 hp "stroker" and
tried to make good to people with the failures but went broke.Could also be the 
law suite.
Thanks Randy

Well, I will just have to bold on the engine and not worry
what type it really is as long as it pulls the KR-2 through the air!

Thanks every body.


Louis Staalberg
Payson, Arizona
N9FL"at"cbiwireless.com
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KR> V.W. engine identification

[Don Chisholm]

Hapi didn't believe in stroker VWs at first until Steve Bennett was marketing 
2180's and having them be a successful engine, What you have there is a stock 
stroke VW with 94 MM cylinders and pistons and is a type 1 engine probably with 
Mexican engine cases. Even back in thw 80s most aftermarket stuff was Mexican 
and pretty much all suppliers dealt the same parts. Claudes Buggies was the 
biggest supplier and I would imagine probably still is 
Louis Staalberg  wrote:  Lots has been said about engines 
type 1,2,3 or 4.

However, mine does not seem to fit either category.
I bought my engine from HAPI who were at the time located
in Eloy, AZ. Rex Taylor and family owned the shop.

They went out of business.I saw the engine briefly mentioned in a Mosler flyer.

Here are the specifications
V.W. based
Name: 75-DEH Magnum
Rated at 75 HP at 3400 rpm
Dual Electronic Ignition
Hydraulic Valve Lifters
Displacement 1915cc.

Question: Which type, 1,2,3 or 4 is the closest to this engine?
Or, is it a unique engine all by itself?



Louis Staalberg
Payson, Arizona
N9FL"at"cbiwireless.com
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KR> composite hurdle

[Don Chisholm]

I ended up with 2 finished KR2 stripped hulks because the composite work was 
very poor and have seen others so it might be easy after the fact but not 
everyone develops the skill. There are pitfalls to it like there are to any 
skill and it takes practice to master it and it takes alot to turn a sows ear 
into a silk purse if it can be accomplished at all. If your primary foam and 
glass work is rough to begin with, you've got a lot of work to bring up an 
acceptable finish
"Myron (Dan) Freeman"  wrote:  This is very true, many 
builders can do the work if they have step by step 
instructions but lacking that they start to stumble and never finish. There 
are many opportunitys around the country to join classes like the EAA and 
others where they can learn how first hand by doing projects with composites 
but often times they still need a "this is how to do it", especially like 
when it comes to the canopy. Mark Langfords site and others are a big help 
but some people need to be led by the hand so to speak and there's nothing 
wrong with that untill they gain confidence. Yes, as I've said before "It's 
easy" once someone learns how but it has been a big stumbling block for 
many.


- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Kraut" 

To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 8:53 PM
Subject: KR> composite hurdle


> There are certainly a lot of KRs that get through the wood stage and sit 
> for
> ten years or get sold before the first piece of foam or glass is done. My
> guess is that builders have not done any composite work before and just
> don't try it because they are not sure how. This is a real shame because
> gluing on a few blocks of foam, sanding, any laying on the glass is one of
> the easier things to do, can be done fairly well by someone their first
> shot, is very hard to screw up too bad, and it can be taken off and redone
> if someone should happen to really screw it up bad. Compared to most 
> other
> building methods it is pretty damn easy.
>
> Brian Kraut
> Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
> www.engalt.com
>
> --
> Also, it is obvious (to me anyhow) that the real reason more KR's are not
> finished is the fibreglass or composite side of construction. There are
> lot's of boats out there that never get any farther because a lot of 
> people
> (builders) get stuck on how to proceed because there is no one tried and
> proven way to proceed with the composite side of construction, and having 
> no
> "set of instructions", they fall by the wayside. Well, as I said, that's
> just my observation. Some people are just not as talented in some areas as
> other's are but we all have special talents in some area.
>
>
>
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KR> KR2S Life Span

[Don Chisholm]

you shouldn't have any problems if you make good covers using a good quality 
breathable boat topping material and there are materials available with 
synthetic felt backings that will keep the chafing problem at bay. Although 
Chris Gardener brings his KR2S in every winter, his is outside and is holding 
out well and he has covers made that cover the whole airplane. Deal with an 
reputable auto trim shop or a trim shop that specializes in boat tops and if 
you decide to do it yourself look in the archives under canopy covers and 
you'll find references for materials as we discussed this subject about a year 
ago 

Randy Powell  wrote:  Is anyone having to park their 
KR out side and if so what are they doing to 
protect it. As hanger space is almost impossible to find in my area, this 
is one of the hurdles I will have to overcome.
Randy Powell

randywpow...@verizon.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Joe H Horton" 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: KR> KR2S Life Span


> I have no proof of this but I had planned on 30 years of flying
> when I was planning my project 



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KR> Polyurethane Paint

[Don Chisholm]

I worked in a bodyshop a while back and the painter there when polyurethane 
paint was  state of the art and this guy used to spray without a respirator and 
the whole shop used to stop work and watch him paint because they couldn't 
believe it. Nobody seen him die but it was everybodies knowledge that the 
isocyanate catylist was lethal, something to do with cyanide. He was a good 
painter but probably needed to breathe that stuff because the recreational 
chemicals he was doing probably lost their kick
Stephen Teate  wrote:  A question for the guys 
that have already painted their planes with
polyurethane. Everything that I have read so far says that a forced air
respirator is absolutely required. True or not?



Stephen Teate

Paradise, Texas

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KR> VW teardown

[Don Chisholm]

best book hands down is" How to rebuild your Volkswagen Air-cooled Engine" by 
Tom Wilson/ HPBooks and only deals with the engine 

Pete Diffey  wrote:  A good place to start is the Haynes 
Manual

http://www.haynes.com/na101.html#anchor570578

Ronald Wright wrote:

>Does anyone have photos on their website about tearing
>down and rebuilding a 2180 VW engine?
>
> 
>

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KR> waf. holes

[Don Chisholm]

I've done it 2 ways now, the first was on my KR1 where I drilled all my holes 
first and then fitted everthing up and what happens is the holes through the 
outer  spars are not in a 90 degree plane to the surface of the fitting when 
you bolt the center and outer fittings together and had to make bevelled 
washers. The second time I attached the center section fittings with the attach 
holes drilled and lined up my outer spars and then drilled the wing attachment 
holes using the the holes already drilled in the center section fittings as my 
guide. I used under sized drills to drill my holes and then used a 3/16" reamer 
to ensure a good fit. It worked out to be quick and easy steve 
 wrote:  gentlemen, is it wise to drill all the holes 
in the outer rear spar 
fittings , then add the 3degree bend. or is it helpful to only drill 
the attachment holes that go into the timber, add the 3* bend, and 
wait till lining up the spars then drilling the pivot bolt hole? 
those in the know will understand.. with thanks ..
Steve Edwards... Myrlteford .Australia 
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KR> COMMON BUILDING PRACTICES

[Don Chisholm]

As you progress with your project you will gain much knowledge and your level 
of skill will increase exponentially, you can kid yourself that everything is 
OK or wake up with the cold realization that you should or shouldn't have done 
something and end up with a lawn ornament. My first attempt at building ended 
up on the scrap heap and I almost bought an almost finished project that the 
builder had stopped working on because he couldn't continue on with but tried 
to dump on someone unsuspecting for that very reason"Larry H." 
 wrote:  I have been thinking about some of the posts lately 
concerning building practices which includes the type of materials used to 
construct your airplane. I realize that these are experimental aircraft which 
means you can build them from just about anything you want. We should also 
remember how much time and money we invest into these projects.
What we all need to realize first is safety to ourselves and to whom you may 
one day sell your airplane to.
Take for example a RV series ariplane. They are all built with a basic kit. 
They should all be the same, right ? If you saw a used RV for sale, more than 
likely if you wanted it and could afford it you wouldn't hesitate to purchase 
it because you would assume it was built correctly, with high quality parts 
like all of the others. If you see a KR2 for sale, what do you assume ? Do you 
assume it was glued together with T88, Elmers art projects glue, Gorilla glue ? 
See what I mean? If we want to be taken seriously by the rest of the flying 
homebuilt community and potential purchasers of our finished or unfinished 
projects we need common basic structural building practices.
I have looked at KR2s that had screen door aluminum turnbuckles attached to the 
cables and running to the rudder and tailwheel as well as the elevator. I bet 
you will not find that in a RVseries airplane. I bet you won't find T88 or 
Elmers or Gorilla glue holding a RV series airplane wing skins, bulkheads or 
longerons together or nails or sheetrock screws or whatever a KR builder may 
decide to use.
We all have a lot of time and money invested in our airplanes. If you want it 
to be worth something other than a laugh or two when it is time to sell, then 
we all should try to develop common known aircraft building techniques and 
common high quality building materials. 
I realize that in order to expand the envelope when it comes to more and 
different kinds of building materials, someone who is brave or creative will be 
the one who tries new and different things. If that is the case then that 
airplane needs to be carefully documented as to what materials were used to 
construct it and pass that information on to the new builder or flyer of that 
airplane. For the rest who are not brave then stick to old known safe building 
practices so there can be a consistency with these neat little airplanes so 
others will not be afraid of them or consider them a joke.
Larry H.
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KR> COMMON BUILDING PRACTICES

[Don Chisholm]

I'm not going to profess at being an absolute expert on the subject here but 
I'll express an apprehension here about using a layer of fibereglass cloth in a 
glue joint. It has been my experience with a cloth and resin layup that it is 
strong in tension and has some compressive strength but has no peel strength. 
If you do a lamination to just about any surface, you can peel the layup off 
easily, the resin matrix will not bond it down. Try it and you'll see what I 
mean and to use it in a glue joint where there will be torsional loads is 
something I'd want to be sure of 

Barry Kruyssen  wrote:  Where I have broken the tip off my 
wing in my recent force landing, about 8
inches of spar was damaged. I plan on scarfing the top and bottom spar
timbers and the 3/32 ply with a layer of 2oz cloth between them using
Araldite epoxy specially for timber (my brother and I have been using it for
30 years on boats without a failure, we have made test pieces this way and
only the wood ever brakes, never the joint)

Here is an extract from
http://www.casa.gov.au/airworth/AWB/02/011.pdf#search=%22araldite%20timber%2
2 on Araldite.
The following adhesives are commonly used for aircraft wood gluing:
a) Resorcinol Formaldehyde Synthetic Resin Glue
b) Urea Formaldehyde Synthetic Resin Glue, and
c) Epoxy resin Araldite AW 134 and Hardener HY 994.

Regards
Barry Kruyssen
Cairns, Australia
k...@bigpond.com
http://www.users.bigpond.com/kr2/kr2.htm



-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of Larry Flesner
Sent: Friday, 25 August 2006 8:36 AM

When I laminated my windshield bow and turtledeck bows from ply strips I
used West Systems epoxy with a layer of KR cloth between each layer of ply.
Light clamping pressure kept from squeezing out too much resin and the glass
layer between each layer of ply has to add to the strength considerably. At
least I assumed it does. So far no problems at 250 hours of flight time.

Larry Flesner



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KR> COMMON BUILDING PRACTICES

[Don Chisholm]

My point of contention here is not whether it'll work or not work and in 
Barry's case for the last 8 inches of the wing spar I'm sure the loads are 
slight  towards the tips and Larry using it in his canopy  bows is in a non 
critical area of the airplane. There are a lot of people looking in at this 
site to learn how to do composite work and we got complimented as being a very 
informative source of information. I personally don't think it's a good 
practice to do in the critical areas of the primary structure and would like 
point out my views to the builders that are just getting started as we don't 
want any mishaps happening because of misinformationLarry Flesner 
<fles...@verizon.net> wrote:  At 09:44 PM 8/24/2006, you wrote:
>I'll express an apprehension here about using a layer of
>fibereglass cloth in a glue joint. It has been my experience
>with a cloth and resin layup that it is strong in tension and
>has some compressive strength but has no peel strength
Don Chisholm
++

I don't expect my canopy or turtledeck bows to ever have any "peel"
loads applied. Also, what changes in a glue joint from a single
layer of glass to wood (wing skins to spar) and multiple layers
of glass to wood ( wood-glass-wood-glass-wood-glass,etc.) ?
I think I left enough epoxy in the glass layers to get a good bond
to the wood, through the glass, and to the next layer of wood.
I really don't expect my "bows" to fail in any kind of incident that
would be otherwise survivable. I'm not concerned enough to
test my installed bows to failure or build a test bow to test.
However, do not view my installation as a "commonly accepted
building practice". I have no personal knowledge of this type of
component being tested, other than by my flight time.

Larry Flesner



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KR> Prop help for Type IV VW

[Don Chisholm]

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm sure someone will but I seem to remember that 
there was an issue with ground adjustable propellers and harmonics with VW 
cranks. Maybe Great Plains Aircraft's Force One prop hub solves the problem but 
I'm sure the person to answer this question is Steve Bennet himself

Colin Rainey  wrote:  Jeff
Buy a 52 x 42 to 44 prop for climb prop. I used those pitch numbers and got
1000 fpm climb solo and 500 fpm or better max weight from a 1915 cc VW
engine, before changing to a Corvair. Max speed was 145 mph. Now if you want
to have several different props available in one, do as I did and order a
Warp Drive 2 or 3 blade (3 blade is smoother and gives better climb) so you
can ground adjust it. Then test the adjustments you want to make, document
them, and then make sure you keep your protractor in the plane along with
wrenches for adjustments. Then you can change to a climb prop "on the fly"
to get out of a small field, and once you stop for fuel, you can change back
to a cruise prop setting that you proved is good.

I have watched and read the list for 2 years and my conclusions are that
both Ed Sturba and Culver over pitch props when they recommend them, so that
they can re-pitch them (saying it is free but not always) until they make
you happy. Honestly, they are afraid to tell you the honest truth which is,
they have no CLUE what prop to recommend because there are so many variables
with each airplane. But rather than tell you that, they tell you this is THE
prop other guys with your plane are running with success. AS Mark L, Mar J,
and me will tell you, there are ALOT of variables that effect the
effectiveness of a particular prop. You will have to establish a baseline
for testing and go from there. That is why I bought a prop that I can adjust
on the ground and test. Once I find what pitch matches my length the best I
may order a prop made to just that length to max performance. I do not want
to sound like I am putting Ed or Culver down; just understand that it is
nearly impossible for someone to match a prop correctly first time to a
particular combination with so many variables. That is why there is 40 hours
of testing.

-Original Message-
From: krnet-bounces+brokerpilot=bellsouth@mylist.net
[mailto:krnet-bounces+brokerpilot=bellsouth@mylist.net]On Behalf Of
Jeff Provenzano
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:19 PM
To: kr...@mylist.net
Subject: KR> Prop help for Type IV VW


Hello KR netters. This is my first time posting to the net. Please let me
know if my netiquette needs help. I have searched the archives over and
over. I can't seem to find enough information about prop selection. Can
anyone help me decide what prop to use. I have a KR-2 that's pretty much
plans built, with a 100hp VW Type IV engine. I plan on buying two props.
First, I want to get a prop that will give me a cruise of somewhere in the
130-140 mph range. I realize this would be more of a climb prop for this
engine, but I want to be able to quickly get off the 3500 ft grass runway
I'm at (50 foot obstacle at either end). Also, since this is such a pitch
sensitive aircraft, I don't want to be going too fast until I get used to
flying my KR. Ultimately, I would like to travel with this KR cruising at
around 180 mph. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.



Sincerely,



Jeff Provenzano

jprovenz...@sport.rr.com

Shreveport, La

318-210-9870

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KR> Losing Weight

[Don Chisholm]

losing weight is simple, it's a matter of self discipline, An example is, a 190 
lb. man requires 3300 calories in his diet to maintain his weight. 1 lb. of 
body weight is valued at 1500 calories, keep track and eat less calories than 
what you require to maintain your weight. Beer is 241 calories per bottle, do 
the math , it works. You can find calorie values on line and every package of 
food you buy has the nutritional values printed on it. Going to a fitness club 
helps because you burn fat and fitness changes your metababolism but eating 
wisely is the first way to lose weight and everything else is an accessory to 
it. At first it is difficult because it's a shock to your body but your body 
adapts and you wouldn't believe how all these little ailments we all have start 
to clear upJames c Ferris  wrote:  What kind of a diet was 
that? thats one pound a day, Mark Jones and I
could use that diet.
Thanks
Jim

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KR> Re: CorvAircraft> near miss?

[Don Chisholm]

We just had a mid air collision between 2 Cessnas on Friday here in a practise 
area and 3 people got killed an instructor and his student were in one aircraft

Allen Wiesner  wrote:  > I saw one at Sebring (LSA 
Expo) earlier this year that was optical. It
> scanned the sky looking for things with little or no relative motion but
> growing in size.

Another problem is that it only is looking ahead (OK, to 60 degrees each 
side) and if it is mounted on the glare shield it can only "see" level or 
descending traffic. Don't forget, in the crash that created the FAA, one 
A/C was level, the other was in a climb, and they collided without ever 
seeing one another.

Allen G. Wiesner KR-2SS/TD S/N 1118
65 Franklin Street
Ansonia, CT 06401-1240

(203) 732-0508

flash...@usadatanet.net 



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KR> using loctite

[Don Chisholm]

I know that this is a little off the subject of gluing oillite bearings in but 
feel that this product should be mentioned to anyone that is considering using 
lubricated plain bushings. There is a product called Garlock DU series bearings 
and what they are are spring steel jackets that have a lead impregnated teflon 
coating on the inside that are good for 5000 hrs. moderate use and as the 
coating gets worn from one surface tranfers to the other surface maintaining 
lubrication and are inexpensive and are pushed into the hole and the outer 
jacket has a split line in it and is designed to spring load itself in the 
hole. I used them on my KR1 for most of my working parts and they don't need to 
be lubricated. The steel jacket is thin and for a 3/16" ID. hole the OD is only 
1/4" and come in various sizes and lengths. My 2 cents worth  Chris Johnston 
 wrote:  Loctite 609 is the stuff to use, it is 
supposedly specially formulated 
for oily bearings such as sintered bronze bushes, it replaces loctite 603 
which had a limited shelf life, and, I think its other problem was it tended 
to be hygroscopic.609 is very well suited for press fits and works so I have 
found out by disseminating itself into the grain of the material and 
augmenting the press fit. It is classed as medium to high strength, maximum 
gap fill is .2 millimetres, maximum temperature is 150 degrees C, and sets 
in about 30 minutes. It is advisable to have a radiused edge on the leading 
edge of the bush other wise when the bush is inserted it tends to scrape the 
loctite from the joint, and cures in a confined space by the absence of air, 
not recommended for use in oxygen rich environments, and costs about $10 
dollars for 10 millilitres. Loctite 620 will also do the job just as well. 
The other thing I learn't was just listen to what the kr net sais and use 
rod end bearings, ( well, bushed hinges should have worked out reasonably 
cheaper, but in practice, its not working out that way ).



Chris Johnston

North Richmond NSW

Australia



- Original Message - 
From: "Scott William" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: KR> using loctite


> Loctite isn't designed to "bond" parts together beyond
> .007 of a gap between those parts. (I think the 660
> will will go to .020) Loctite 640 bearing retainer is
> what i always used on taper shafts, and I find it
> strong enough to eliminate the reliance on the
> retainig keys on those shafts. It is used as a filler.
> It goes in and remains where there is any kind of
> clearance. It dries in the gap, and has enourmous
> sheer strength, but no bond strength.
>
> Do not use it to hold parts together. Use it on
> press-fits to make the fit stronger.
>
> --- Chris Johnston wrote:
>
>> I need to fit some sintered bronze bushing into
>> aluminium plate, the parts are a good interference
>> fit but I thought some loctite would not go astray
>> either. Any information I have found so far on the
>> on the web suggests that you coat the parts with
>> loctite and then press fit together, but I would
>> think this would scrape any adhesive from the joint
>> and there would be no bond, unless tehy are relying
>> on the loctite soaking into the bush and bonding
>> that way. Loctite 603 I think is the one to use as
>> it is specially formulated for oily surfaces. The
>> only other option I can think of is to make the bush
>> slightly thinner than the plate and fill around the
>> edges with loctite.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Johnston
>>
>>
>> North Richmond NSW
>>
>>
>> Australia.
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KR> Aeropoxy Chameleon

[Don Chisholm]

If you're considering trying another brand of resin, have a look at MGS. Wicks 
and Aircraft Spruce carry it. It's a formulation designed in Europe for their 
Aerospace industry and is exclusively used in Diamond Aircraft (Katana). It's 
of very low toxicity, cure times are adjustable, has excellent wetout 
properties and is very user friendly. I've used a few different epoxys and this 
stuff is my favourite. It just works every time
Steve Bray  wrote:  It will not set up for me. It has 
stayed sticky for a week now. Called the 
people where I bought it and they gave me the # of the producer. I feel like 
its crap and I got ripped off. It must work for someone. I mixed it like it 
said ...four times. Could have been a bad batch but it won't happen to me 
agaim.

Steve Bray
Jackson, Tennessee




>From: "Joseph H. Horton" 
>Reply-To: KRnet 
>To: eldo...@yahoo.com,kr...@mylist.net
>Subject: Re: KR> Aeropoxy Chameleon
>Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:05:38 -0400
>
>Matt,
> Some where along the line I was told that it is from absorbing
>moisture with age. I stopped using the stuff that had changed color for
>anything structural and used it up for micro filler and such so it did
>not go to waste. I do not know if it harms the integrity of the epoxy, I
>just did not continue to use it because it didn'tseem right. I used West
>Systems and am just guessing it would be the same cause.
>
>Joe Horton, Coopersburg, PA.
>joe.kr2s.buil...@juno.com
>
>On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 06:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Matthew Elder
> writes:
> > Has anyone ever seen aeropoxy hardener turn deep red in color such
> > that it changes the mix's color from amber to red?
> > Wondering what happened there.
> >
> > Matt
>
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KR> Fuselage

[Don Chisholm]

Also use crossed cables with turnbuckles (cheap ones) from the top of one side 
to the bottom of the other side both sides and drop a plumb bob to align the 
top centerline to the one marked on your table.  It makes it totally adjustable 

VIRGIL N SALISBURY  wrote:  I put a temporary spacer at the 
widest point and left it there 
until all was skinned, The top was also down and held in place
on the table, Virg

On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 09:36:52 -0400 "jg7...@mindspring.com"
writes:
> HI Guys,
> Just wanted to ask a quick question. I am about to install the 
> bottom skin on my fuselage, but before I do i would like to know 
> what you all did to hold the shape of the fuselage top untill you 
> can install the doubler? Since I can't install the rest of the 
> bracing untill the doublers are in place I was afraid that the 
> fuselage would loose its shape before it was glued up. PLease let me 
> know what you did.
> 
> John Godwin
> jg7...@mindspring.com
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> 


Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
Miami ,Fl

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KR> steel and ally

[Don Chisholm]

I'm wondering why nobody has mentioned Machinerys Handbook as a source of 
information. It has everything you need to know on the subject being discussed 
and by the way 6061 T6 is only about 70% the strength of 2024 T3
Mark Langford  wrote:  Don Lively wrote:

> I would stay away from the 2024 and use the 6061 aluminum...

What's wrong with 2024?

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net

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KR> vertical card compass

[Don Chisholm]

Hi Bob, My name is Don Chisholm, I f you don't have any other takers please put 
my name on the list for your compass. I need a compass to mount on my canopy 
frame on my KR1 as the hole in my panel for the compass is being used for 
another engine instrument and want to remotely mount a compass. Please get back 
to me and let me know  and howc you expect payment
  Regards Donchizmsupholst...@rogers.com

j35...@aol.com wrote:
  If anyone is interested, I have a vertical card compass available. It is 
made by Precision Aviation Inc. and is model PAI-700. It is serial 32549, is 
lighted (14V) and has a bracket included for mounting on a goare shield. I just 
removed it from my Bonanza while doing an upgrade. I am asking $100 and will 
pay ups freight within the US.

Bob Lasecki
Chicago - long time and still building
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KR> Are any of you Mothers alive?

[Don Chisholm]

I've never seen it this quiet, I was begining to wonder

bo...@hatconversions.com wrote:  

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KR> For sale

[Don Chisholm]

Hey Doug; Your panel truck is worth more than what I have here and my KR1 isn't 
for sale at this time. What I 'm doing is raising capital for an Aeronca Chief 
that I have on line that I want to use my Lycoming engine on. 100- 105 MPH and 
good short field rough field performance is what I'm after with a view of going 
on floats at a later date. I'm picking it up for $5000 and have to clean it up 
and recover it and will build an engine mount and do a cowling and a Superchief 
vertical stabilizer and put float fittings on at Nick Smiths. I've got that 
going for me and think it would be a waste of an expensive engine on a KR that 
is a marginal load hauler and a questionable 2 seater. I get a 65 banger 
Continental with it that is 1/2 time with logbooks that is worth $2500  with 
the plane. I've already got the paperwork to register it in the amateurbuilt 
category and will have no problems meeting the 51% rule. I buy block time on a 
Cessna 150 and got 7.1 HRs on it this week, it's
 good to be back in the saddle again.
  Regards Don  Doug Rupert <drup...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
  Hey Don you interested in an even up trade for my Mercury Panel truck. Would
be a great head turner for the business and even get to write her off on
taxes.
Doug Rupert.

Don Chisholm
Subject: Re: KR> For sale

I have a outer wing panel set that are jig built using a laser level that
are precision aligned with center section spars and are AS5046 with a
horizontal stabilizer and elevator from the same drawings. I'm keeping my
KR1 and going onto a different project, will sell all for cost of materials.
Has Canadian amateur built primary, box spar inspection documents $1250 US
plus crating and shipping 



-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.3/331 - Release Date: 5/3/2006



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KR> For sale

[Don Chisholm]

I have a outer wing panel set that are jig built using a laser level that are 
precision aligned with center section spars and are AS5046 with a horizontal 
stabilizer and  elevator from the same drawings. I'm keeping my KR1 and going 
onto a different project, will sell all for cost of materials. Has Canadian 
amateur built primary, box spar inspection documents $1250 US plus crating and 
shipping 

skp...@charter.net wrote:  Please send me a picture I may have a purchaser for 
it. 

Brian I don't think your wife will let you this time. So I don't have to worry 
about you getting it.

Steven Phillabaum
KR2S; 5048; corvair;
Auburn, Alabama


 Hartman Malcolm L CMSgt 926 MXG/MXS wrote: 
> Completed KR-2S fuselage. The Diehl conventional landing gear, Matco wheels
> and brakes, RR rudder pedals, RR top deck kit, homemade tail wheel, homemade
> control stick and all filght controls are all still installed and I have the
> RR fibreglass cowl and wheel pants. I lost my outboard wing panels in
> Katrina and I'm not rebuilding. I'll sell for cheap, $1500.
> 
> Malcolm Hartman
> Belle Chasse, LA (New Orleans area)
> 504.393.9133
> malcolm.hart...@neworleans.af.mil
> mp...@cmaaccess.com
> 
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KR> dragonfly canopies

[Don Chisholm]

who supplies Dart industries

KR> starting wars

[Don Chisholm]

here's my 2 cents worth " maybe ' again. but these wars that get started
seem to breath life into this on line repartee. I don't think anyone is really 
offended
in the long run of it and it keeps this lively. My little foray about steel 
tube fuselages 
recently netted me some good info that put my project down the road just that 
much 
further. I think everyone is afraid of being wrong and coming off as being an 
idiot
but I do my best learning from my mistakes and I think that goes for everyone.
Sorry Mark Jones, we're brothers with a difference of opinion.no hard feelings?

KR> starting wars

[Don Chisholm]

Touche'

Mark Jones <mjo...@muellersales.com> wrote:-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of Don Chisholm

Sorry Mark Jones, we're brothers with a difference of opinion.no hard feelings?

Don and others,
Don't be sorry and don't apologize to me or anyone else for that matter. I 
think you guys who are designing your own aircraft are true pioneers in 
aviation and not just modifiers. What I tried to imply was that this is a KR 
community building wood, composite airplanes and that is what the subject 
should be related to because that is what KR builders and flyers are on this 
list for. I did not intend to piss anyone off either, just redirect the subject 
back to KR. Anyway that is just my opinion, but what do I know. I know I am 
going flying this afternoon and am looking forward to being up in the beautiful 
clear blue skies and 65° temps we are having here in Wisconsin right now. 

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI
Visit my web site: http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj
Email: flyk...@wi.rr.com

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KR> Covering material

[Don Chisholm]

I don't know if Ron is An upholsterer /Canvass guy but I'm the person that 
suggested 
the Odyssey Soft Touch And I already have a Pattern for a Stock KR2 Canopy Cover
and I'd be interested in patterning up wing covers , turtle deck, tail covers 
and cowling covers
I manufacture seat sets for Smith Aviation SuperCub replica's 
www.replicap18@execulink,com and am self employed
as an Upholsterer and specialize in aircraft related interiors and covers and 
have at my
disposal a stock KR2 And KR2S to pattern from and can probably pattern to make 
universal
covers Ron,
If you have the skills to make custom covers for KR Aircraft and want 
to make some extra bucks I believe there is a market. Every airport I have 
been to or know about in my area has a waiting list for hanger space. The 
KR was never designed to be left outside in the weather and removing and 
replacing the wings to trailer back and forth to and from the airport is not 
practical. The alternitive is a cover that covers the aircraft completly 
and I think you could make these and sell them. I hope some of you guys 
will chime in on this one and prove that I am correct when I say, "There is 
a market"

Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
rsto...@hot.rr.com



- Original Message - 
From: "Ron Butterfield" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 1:13 PM
Subject: KR> Covering material


> At 10:32 AM 10/16/05, Don wrote:
>>I'm an automotive upholsterer by trade and if you don't mind my
>>2 cents worth my favorite material to use especially for canopy covers
>>is a material called Odyssey Soft Touch manufactured by MarChem Coated
>>Fabrics.Inc.. What it is is a light weight coated polyester that is 
>>waterproof
>>and breathable and has a synthetic felt backing so it's not prone to 
>>chaffing
>>plexi or paint and has a 5 year manufacturers guarantee.
>
> I'm sure there are probably many places to get this, but here is one:
> www.sailrite.com
>
> If you download their pdf catalog, it is on page 72. $18.50/yd (5' wide)
>
>
> Regards,
> RonB
>
>
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KR> Covering material

[Don Chisholm]

Hi Ron; I'll wait till friday to post a proposal to the net but I think I can 
make covers for a half decent price as once I do the pattern which is 
a big part of the job the ones after the first one are straight layout
cut and sew and I've done covers for various aircraft so I have a good
idea of what's required and am into KR's
I'm not. I've got a local friend who is also a self employed 
upholstere , however.

My personal feeling is that it would be better to order something 
like this from someone who actually uses it themselves. In this kind 
of work, there are all kinds of details that can cause something to 
work either well or poorly.

On the other hand, many of us would rather do something ourselves 
than pay for 20 hours of someone else's labor, which is why I posted 
the link to the material.


Regards,
RonB 


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KR> making covers & other upholstery matters

[Don Chisholm]

doing professional looking looking upholstery really does depend on what 
equipment
you have at your disposal as the craft itself is not difficult. The difference 
is that an
upholsterer has a repertory of techniques and has a hands on knowledge of the
materials being used, thousands of hours at the craft also shows in the 
finished product.
  The heavier the material the more difficulty you will encounter if your 
sewing machine is not up to the task, it's all in whether the machine can feed 
the work. Homemakers and high speed
garment workers machines are called drop feed machines and the feed dogs in the 
base of the machine is what feeds the work, the next level machine is called a 
compound feed machine with either  a walking foot or walking needle walking 
foot . The machine in effect feeds
top and bottom, trying to use a machine that is not up to the task is not only 
frustrating but
can ruin hours of work and expensive materials.
 Threads used for upholstery is the next consideration, I use 2 kinds of 
thread, for indoor
applications nylon upholstery grade thread has a high tensile strength. For 
outdoor applications I use a marine quality thread which is resistant to UV and 
rot.
Stitch length is also a consideration, garments require a close stitch with many
stitches per inch, upholstery requires less stitches per inch. In vinyls and 
leathers,
too tight a stitch will cut the material, the hole spacing has to be wider 
apart . 
There are other considerations but if you don't have the equipment at your 
disposal
use lighter materials and you shouldn't have any problems using a light sewing 
machine
Sunbrella and the generic brands of that brand shouldn't be a problem. My only 
consideration
with those types of materials is they have get wet to be water resistant and 
shrinkage is 
some concern but are more drapeable than stiffer materials

KR> steel tube fuselages

[Don Chisholm]

Yes

patrusso  wrote:D
Fuselage uncovered.
Pat
- Original Message - 
From: "Dennis Mingear" 
To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: KR> steel tube fuselages


> Was that covered or uncovered Pat?
> 
> Denny ...
> 
> --- patrusso 
wrote:
> 
>> I have forgotten what my KR fuselage weighed, but my
>> son is building
> 
> GOP = Greed-Oppression-Power.
> 
> 
> 
> __ 
> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! 
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
> 
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KR> Steel tube KR's and other foolish ideas.

[Don Chisholm]

Just to let you know;my steel tube take off from a KR2S is a work in progress
 I've invested years of thinking and research into this and have a completed 
fuselage 
my wing spar set comes from a stripped KR2 and I've foamed and glassed my outer
wing panels and built a tail and am getting ready to mate my center section 
spar sets
to my fuselage then the tail and should have it on it's gear shortly and have an
0 235 Lycoming that I'm using for power .I've already built a KR1 and think 
that qualifies
 me as a KR person and have been for about 30 years now. Ken Rand was an 
innovator
of the highest order and the KR's were born in idea's from previous designs and 
I think 
if he were alive today he wouldn't have a problem with what I'm doing as his 
idea is what 
has sparked me to instill my individualism into what I've learned by persuing 
my airplane
education.
If you want to be a blind devotee to someone elses cause don't let me stand in 
your
way and everyone else that I'm being a bad influence on I'm sorry but I started 
as a juvenile delinquent.


airplane forum, not a place to design and build an entirely new airplane.
There KR are builders all over the world who monitor this list to learn how
to build KR and you are doing nothing but wasting their time. When I pay my
voluntary yearly dues (did you?) for the KR Net, I expect to hear KR related
issues. I think the problem here is that some of you guys are simply
dreamers and not true KR fanatics like the rest of us. You either LOVE THE
KR or don't. If you don't, then move on to another plane and stop wasting
your time trying to re-invent the KR. You and I both know that most of these
foolish ideas you propose will never ever be implemented in the KR. I am not
trying to be a smart ass here, but let's get this list focused back where it
is meant to be and that is on the KR airplane as Ken Rand and Stuart
Robinson meant for it to be, simple and cost effective.

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI USA
E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
Visit my KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/n886mj




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KR> Battery Mount

[Don Chisholm]

I'm an automotive upholsterer by trade and if you don't mind my
2 cents worth  my favorite material to use especially for canopy covers
is a material called Odyssey Soft Touch manufactured by MarChem Coated
Fabrics.Inc.. What it is is a light weight coated polyester that is waterproof
and breathable and has a synthetic felt backing so it's not prone to chaffing
plexi or paint and has a 5 year manufacturers guarantee. Sunbrella Also makes
 a felt backed material but is considerably more expensive than Odyssey
each material has it's plus's and minus's
 Brian Kraut  wrote:
I checked with a marine canvas shop, but it was too expensive so I made it
myself. I used Sunbrell canvas which is a good UV blocking marine canvas
and the materials were about $800.00. I probably have about 20 hours labor
in the cover. Other than the home economics class we had to take in junior
high 20 years ago I have no other sewing experience so it is pretty easy and
anyone can do it, or talk their wife into it.

At the time the difference between a hanger and a tie down here was about
$300 a month if you could even get a hanger so it was pretty much a no
brainer for me to keep it otside.

Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of Robert L. Stone
Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 10:54 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Battery Mount


Hi Brian,
I noticed in the second picture at the bottom of this e-mail you have a
cover that covers your KR completly. Where in the world did you get that
cover, I suspect you had it custom made???

Bob Stone, Harker Heights, Tx
rsto...@hot.rr.com
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Kraut" 

To: "KRnet" 
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: KR> Battery Mount


> You can look at www.engalt.com/kr2.htm and click on engine. I had a
> simple
> aluminum sheet metal box with no sides and long bolts on the top. This is
> the way the plane was when I bought it and it worked fine. It had some
> insulation wrapped around the battery.
>
> The one thing I would prefer to have if I was starting from scratch is an
> enclosed box to contain the acid if the battery leaks. You can buy cheap
> bigger battery boxes at boat supply stores. I assume that you can find
> motorcycle size plastic battery boxes from motorcycle parts suppliers
> also.
> Make sure that you also have some kind of strap to keep it from coming out
> the top in negative G maneuvers.
>
> Brian Kraut
> Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
> www.engalt.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
> Behalf Of jscott.pi...@juno.com
> Sent: Friday, October 14, 2005 8:53 PM
> To: kr...@mylist.net
> Subject: Re: KR> Battery Mount
>
>
> Mine is done very much like Larry's upper battery. It sits on a piece of
> 1/4" angle aluminum with a pair of long holddown bolts and a simple strap
> to hold the battery tight against the firewall.
>
> I was told that with my battery sitting about 3 inches from the left
> exhaust pipe, my battery wouldn't last a year. The first one failed
> after 4 1/2 years and 325 hours. The second one is 4 years old with 210
> hours behind it and still functions normally.
>
> Jeff Scott
> N1213W
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 18:25:00 -0500 larry flesner 
> writes:
>>
>> > I need to mount my sealed 15 amp battery onto my firewall.
>> Does anyone
>> >have a picture on their web sight that shows what you have done?
>> Jim Morehead
>> +++
>>
>> When I moved my battery (main battery) to the firewall, I started
>> to build a box/holder but found I didn't have room for anything
>> but what you see in the picture at the following address. The
>> battery is setting on a small piece of 1/4" alum angle that is
>> fastened to the firewall. The front vertical piece has a small
>> alum angle on the bottom edge of the battery to keep it from
>> slipping upward. There are three 1/4" bolts that hold the battery
>> to the firewall. This is a rock solid mount and there is zero
>> movement of the battery. 175 hours and no problems.
>>
>> http://www.krnet.org/mvn2004/040929139.jpg
>>
>> My small backup battery, top battery in the picture, is mounted
>> in a similar fashion.
>>
>> Larry Flesner
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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KR> steel tube fuselages

[Don Chisholm]

that's an idea for thought. I'm getting ready to start machining parts
Don Reid suggests that the waf's almost as they are, are probably sufficient
my view is that how the spar sets are attached to the stock fuselage it
shouldn't bve too hard to come up with something at least that structurally 
soundhartwi...@juno.com wrote:
Don,
It might be better to install "butterfly" blocks between the spar caps
at the attach point with the steel fuselage (similar to the landing gear
attach blocks seen on Lynn Hyder's KR2--
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/lhyder/)--
one 1/2 " bolt through the block and an attach fitting welded at each
side of the fuselage for the main spar and smaller bolts for the rear
spar. The block would also even out the stresses at the fuselage
juncture. Check out Falconar or Jodel plans--they have wood fuselages,
but I believe they only use bolts to attach the wing spar to the
fuselage.
An alternative would be to box in the spar with the steel of the
fuselage sides and require only small bolts through the "butterfly" block
to hold it in place.
Dick H

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KR> aluminum bar stock

[Don Chisholm]

I'm looking for aluminum bar stock for landing gear legs, up here in the frozen
north pickings are slim. Aircraft Spruce has  3/4 inch x 4 inch 2024 T3 but 
I'm looking for 1 inch x 4 inch 2024 T3 or 7075 T6.
Any suggestions?

KR> Aluminum barstock

[Don Chisholm]

Thanks people for the input I got some good leads.Stuff like that is hard to 
locate here in Canada as some grades are not manufactured here and
must be imported from the good old U.S of A. You guys have everything

KR> steel tube fuselages

[Don Chisholm]

just to get a dicussion going. I have a hypothetical question to the net and 
I'm sure it's been either done or thought about.
 If one decided to mate a KR wing set to a truss type steel tube fuselage 
 how would one go about doing it?
. My thoughts are to go with a Sonerai 2 style set up
as it is a center section  with 2 outer wing panel style wing set not too 
dissimilar to
a KR wing .  Using 1/8 inch wing attach fittings more or less as per wing attach
fittings but installed on the juncture of where the fuselage and center spars 
intersect,
bolt the spar to the fuselage with 5/16 inch mounting bolts through the upper 
and lower spar
caps on center through the fittings through the spar.
How would one bolt the wing to fuselage attach fittings to the spar, would you 
use the 
same bolt pattern as on the wing attach fittings or use 1/4 inch bolts on 
center of the 
fitting 3 on one side of the 5/16 inch mounting bolt and 3 on the other side.
I hope my question is clear enough

KR> steel tube fuselages

[Don Chisholm]

just to give an idea the Sonerai 2 S uses About an equal amount of 3/4 inch 
5/8 inch .035 steel tube with some other sizes and calls for about 150 feet of 
tubing. 5/8 tubing is.2205 lbs. per foot and 3/4 tubingis.2673 lbs per foot if 
you
do the math it weighs approx 36 lbs. I have a Smythe Sidewinder fuselage that 
is in around that weight and is 15 inches longer than a stock KR2S fuselage.
Dennis Mingear <dennisming...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Interesting idea, I'll let others comment on the more
technical aspects of your post, but I would be
interested in the weight difference between the wood
and steel fuse.

Denny ...



--- Don Chisholm wrote:

> just to get a dicussion going. I have a hypothetical
> question to the net and I'm sure it's been either
> done or thought about.

GOP = Greed-Oppression-Power.




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KR> fuselage weight

[Don Chisholm]

I just weighed my  Sidewinder fuselage and it weighs 58 lbs

KR> Concern Regarding Registering a KR in the LSA Category

[Don Chisholm]

just to let you know I registered my KR1 in the primary ultralight catigory 
here in Canada
with a stall speed of 45 mph. If you look at the early KR2 plans it calls the 
stall speed as
42 mph

Dennis Mingear  wrote:
Most KR's are not as fast as most people think they
are. The VW powered stuff seems to fit into the LSA
rule fairly nicely, the stall speed is still a problem
though.

Look at what Monnett has done with the Sonex ans
Waiex, they are both LSA compliant. Any KR builder can
do the same with his KR. As I recall, to use the stock
KR2s wing you would have to limit your gross weight to
something like 950 pounds to meet the criteria that
Monnett uses for His planes.

It can be done, but, do you want to put up with the
LSA limits imposed by such an approach.

Denny ...

--- "pjohn...@kmts.ca" 
wrote:

> One thing to keep in mind that may preclude a KR
> from ever being registered in the LSA category is
> that the published speed of all KRs is 200 mph. I
> believe the upper limit on your LSA category is 130
> mph?
> 
> Here in Canada we cannot register a 1400 lb aircraft
> in the Advanced Ultralight Aircraft category because
> the allowed all up weight for an AULA is 1350 lbs.
> Also, the AULA category maximum stall speed is 42
> mph. It does not wash at all to tell Transport
> Canada "I'll only fly it at 1350 lbs and stall it
> below 42 mph." 
> 
> Food for thought.
> 
> 
> PJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: KR> KR2Sport - FLAME ON
> 
> > Sir, I too have been looking into a kr2 sport. If
> the 130 mph is the mark,
> > why not adjust the engine to get there, thus
> making it a sport. (I do know
> > other adjustments will have to be made, but just
> how difficult can it be?)
> > If there are any suggestions, I would like to
> know. Thanks - Curt
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
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> krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at
> http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 


GOP = Greed-Oppression-Power.




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KR> nose gear

[Don Chisholm]

I'm curious about prop clearances and what's available for  bigger diameter 
props as what would be used on a 0 200 Continental or 0 235 Lycoming.
I haven't looked at other designs yet but am interested in other peoples
  thoughts and experiences on the subject on the kr net

KR> horizontal stabilizer dimensions

[Don Chisholm]

With Jeff Scott's development of his KR2 seems that the KR's are on the cusp
  of another development phase. I remember some time ago on the net here
there was talk of extending the tail boom to make the tail more effective rather
than increasing the span of the h/s, elevator combination. What is the consensus
at this point in time

KR> glue joints

[Don Chisholm]

This may start a info storm on the kr net but  it's my understanding that
sanding end cuts is a no no for 2 reasons. first being a fresh cut exposes
end grain of the wood and sanding knocks the exposed cut end of the
long indiviual wood fiber over and the adhesive can't wick into the cut end.
Second , the fine particle saw dust you are creating by sanding clogs
the end cut .
Most epoxies have a mixing variable of + or - 5 percent and T88 seems
to tolerate mixing inaccuracies well

KR> glue joints

[Don Chisholm]

 if you need a reference for proper gluing techniques
you'll find a back up to what has been mentioned earlier on the krnet today
in the EAA how to series " Building the Custom Aircraft With Wood volume 1
on page 20 titled " Glues And Gluing" No point in reinventing the wheel
and ignoring previous experience . Sanding a glue joint may work but I'm
not willing to put my butt on the line to prove something that is questionable

KR> horizontal stab incidence

[Don Chisholm]

I've been loosly following Jeff Scott's narrative about his h/s modification 
and have built a stab. elevator combo from TET AS5046 drawings that
establish the level line to give the stab. a -- .75 degree incidence.
 I'm wondering what is the ideal or are the numbers still out on that one

KR> KR1's

[Don Chisholm]

couldn't make thje gathering we had our chapter fly in on the same weekend
that I was commited to. I'd be interested to see pictures of KR1's that made
the gathering. after all that is the first airplane in the movement

KR> KR1'S

[Don Chisholm]

I guess I' d better get my bott in gear and show up at the next gathering
with my KR1. I'm almost finished putting my VW engine back together
and installing it back on the airplane. I haven't thrown the Posa away yet
but will when I purchasec an Aerocarb as that is the only carb I can use
without doing extensive modifications. I have to rework my intake a bit
as running the Posa showed that I have an issue there. Oh well it was good
for something. My friend Owen MacPherson has over 300 hours on his aerocarb
on his KR2 and describes it as a Flintstone FADEC but it works.

KR> looking for website

[Don Chisholm]

about 5 years ago there used to be a website linked to what was online
at that time in relationship to KR'S called area 51 where KR's that started
as KR's but ended up being something else were showcased.
 Anybody know if that site still exists?

KR> Start build from the wings

[Don Chisholm]

Hi Dubi; my name is Don Chisholm I live in Oshawa Ontario Canada
I'm posting this to you off line because the KR experts on line seem
to disagree with me about building wings first and it doesn't seem to
make any difference that I'm building my second KR and have extsnsive
aircraft experience but when I built my KR1 I found that building the
airplane full planform to be a pain in the butt especially when it came
time to build the outer wing panels and thought there had to be a better
 way so I built my second wing set in roll over jig made from angle iron
and found that it was much easier to build my outer wing panels .
also I shaped my foam cores from extruded polystyrene insulation
foam Varieze style which is readily available from building supply houses
is  cheaper than ridgid polyurethane and has a superior structural value
and urethane foam is nasty to shape and easy to screw up with
when you 're shaping your cores.
the idea is to  mount your center section spar set in a jig to 
maintain alignment and to be able to fit your fuselage into the
jig to be able mount the center spars to the fuselage 
this might sound complicated but think about it,
eventually the light bulb will go on in your brain.
I'd never build another KR any other way
Don C chizmsupholst...@rogers.com  
Dubi Gefen <dub...@maanit.org.il> wrote:


Hello KRnet

I made decision to start build the aircraft from the wings first and
then continue to fuselage.

Are there any builder thinking there can be problem with this process
steps? 

Dubi Gefen.




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KR> wings first

[Don Chisholm]

oops pushed the wrong button on my last note

KR> kr wings

[Don Chisholm]

KR> kr wings

[Don Chisholm]

Mike;
  I put my wings in another room when I finished them
their not in my way

KR> airframe alignments

[Don Chisholm]

it really doesn't matter about the bows in the banana boat
top longerons or the orientation of the firewall in relation to
the longerons as your alignments should be established
on a longtitudinal plane in relationship to your angle of
incidence of your airfoil profile and all your alignments
( horizontal stabilizer, and thrust line) will be established
on that longtitudinal line. Do yourself a favour and purchase
a lazer level, it will make your life so much simpler.

KR> kr wings

[Don Chisholm]

Steve; seeing as how you haven't installed your center spars
yet may I make a suggestion, food for thought.
I built my outer wing panels with my center spars mounted
in a rollover jig made from angle iron. It allowed me to turn
my assembly over so I could  glass my foam cores top
side up, bottom side up, leading edge up or trailing edge
up. When I built my KR1, and hated doing the outer wing
panels on the airplane. This time around I decided to get
them out of the way first. It is so much easier to build
them this way and using a lazer level and the TET airfoil
 templates allows you to achieve complete accuracy easily.
The outer panels can be completely finished including
maintaining aileron alignment by leaving a 48 in. template
on the butt of the outer panel. You rig your jig to accommodate
the fuselage so you maintain your center spar to outer spar
alignments then glue them in.I think anybody that has built 
a KR will attest with a little after thought that having the
outer panels out of the way now then fabricating the rest
of the airplane puts you way ahead of the game as it is
my consideration that the outerwing panel construction
is the trickiest part of the airplane

KR> kr sticks

[Don Chisholm]

on my KR1 I did a half a torque tube style stick
assy. to put my stick in the center of the fuselage
so I could use my leg as an armrest and because
the one out of the plans bit the big one.
on my 2S project I'm adapting a SuperCub dual
stick assy. and using it transverse along my front
center spar. I guess though that I kind of cheated
because I manufacture seat sets for Smith Aviation
SuperCub kits and help myself to their parts bin and
jigs for whatever I can adapt to my project. Also
because it's a slick setup
Don C 

KR> staples

[Don Chisholm]

being an upholsterer by trade I've yanked millions
of staples best way is with a tack puller ( if you
don't have access to staple puller tools) and a set
of side cutters. What I did when I built my KR1
fuselage was staple over tacking strip so as
not to leave staple marks on the plywood
less to fill , less time.to finish

KR> subjects other than KRs

[Don Chisholm]

didn't we go through a thing with cat crap
not too long ago?
The KRnet is about KR's just like the title
says
Stick to the subject please

KR> VW engine for sale

[Don Chisholm]

Darryl Gilbert from Gilbert Custom Aircraft has
a 1915 cc VW engine for sale for $2500. The 
engine is complete set up for dual ignition
with a top mount starter accessory case and
is new never been run. He also has other
engines from A 75 to 0 200 Continentals
0 235 to 0 360 Lycomings. his engines
are first class and reasonable.
My 2S project just moved up to a 0 235
Lycoming with high compression pistons
his website can be accessed through
gilbert custom aircraft

KR> 4130 steel

[Don Chisholm]

basically when you normalize 4130 you are
just stress relieving it. You can do that by
heating it to red and letting it aircool at
room temperature same as you do with
a cluster on a steel tube airframe

KR> mag timing

[Don Chisholm]

your timing light might work it's one
you'd have to try on the chance that
you fry the coil in the mag. If you
don't want to take the chance, get
a piezo buzzer from Radio Shack
part #273-065 or 273-066 ( about
$3) and a 9 volt battery same as
you use in a smoke detector and
wire between the P lead and
ground. when the mags points open 
the tone of the buzzer will change
signaling when the points open.
That is when you get high voltage
to fire the plug on the cylinder
that you set your timing to 

KR> canopy latches

[Don Chisholm]

I copied my latch mechanism from
a 2 33 glider but after the fact seen a similar
idea in Sonerai 2 plans. This idea works on
a swing over canopy. Basically it works on
a spring loaded pin that inserts into a  latch
hole, you can get the idea from your standard
door knob and latch plate. Mine has 2 pins
that insert into 2 latch plates to lock my
canopy down on my KR1,  I retract the pins
with 2 pins welded to the spring loaded latch
pins on a T plane to the latch pins, 1 side of
the T pin is inside the canopy and one 
side protrudes through the canopy fibreglass
skirt through a slot and by squeezing the
pins together retracts the latch pins from
the latch plates and can be accessed from
inside and out. With a little engineering
this idea can be adapted to a flip forward
canopy. As to my aileron hinges, my hinges
screw onto my aileron spars with nut plates
epoxied to the aileron spars on the inside
and my hinges are removable

KR> KR 1 hinge question

[Don Chisholm]

Deciding to make new hinges and just bolting
them on is a bit stickier than that. Any mis-
alignment of the hinges will make your control
surface bind. To maintain alignment  when 
mounting them is maintained by using a proper
diameter steel rod inserted through the hinges
and when you swivel the control surface spar
( elevator or rudder) it must be free moving
and there can be no flexing of the spars.
 If you are replacing the hinges because they
are galled and there is play in the hinge,
consider re using them. Either use sintered
bronze bushings and redrill what you have
or even better use Garlock DU series bearings
what they are is a steel jacket that has a coating
on the inside that is lead impregnated teflon
and the claim is that they are good for 5000
hrs.moderate use. If your hinge pins are
AN3 aircraft bolts 3/16 inch diameter.
the Garlock bearings are only 1/4 inch
O.D so all You have to do is redrill your 
hinge pin holes to 1/4 inch , they are
split down the sides so  they'll maintain
tension in the hole and won't spin.
On my KR 1 I have 3 inspection holes 
 1 on the rear turtle deck to inspect
upper elevator cable pulley, 1 on the
left side to inspect the lower elevator
cable where it attaches to the bellcrank
and the other on the right side and I
cover that hole with a 4 3/4" domed
inspection cover used on inspection
holes in fabric covered airplanes
Hope this all is of some help to
you

KR> weight

[Don Chisholm]

what will determine how heavy it will be
is how well your initial fibreglass work is and how
well finished you want it

KR> welding spriing bar

[Don Chisholm]

The stock spring bar as purchased from
R.R is 7075 T6 aluminum and it's been
my understanding that 7075 T6 aluminun
is not a weldable grade of aluminum. If
you want to study the properties of this
grade of aluminum , you'll find what you
need to know in Machineriys Handbook 
What it is is spring aluminum and the
phisical properties are altered with high
heat applications. I'd be real careful here

KR> spring bar

[Don Chisholm]

sorry about my spelling on my last
message. one fingered typing and
no glasses is a bummer

KR> the old days

[Don Chisholm]

I'm fairly new to the krnet but have been
involved with KR's for quite some time now
and was a subscriber to the newsletters
from early times. The early newsletters
were great and some of the ideas portrayed
were pure genius and the KR2S and many
of the ideas for fittings and hardware on the
KR2S came from those early ideas.
After a while many of the ideas in the
newsletter started to become questionable,
I went out of touch for a while and when I got
back in the information loop things had changed
That's about the time of the AS504x series of
airfoils and the movers and shakers that were
behind that development, they kept the design
from falling into obscurity. The KR design is
an enduring design that has many adherents 
worldwide and I'm proud to be a part of the
movement. But for my 2 cents worth I agree
lets stay on the subject, I enjoy the interaction
but think there are many people out there
watching this that would like to post questions
but don't want to sound dumb.BE KIND and
no cat sh#t please

KR> kr hinges

[Don Chisholm]

I've got to keep the record straight but the
rod ends I used came from a gentleman
named Mel Locke from Calgary Alberta
they are not rod ends like Dr. Dean suggested
and personally I like his idea better. They 
were easier to do  than what I did on my
KR1. I'm still amazed that I got my hinge
alignments proper but it did probably take
3 tries if I remember correctly. which
explains why I spent so long building
it because I probably built the plane
3 times. To the people just starting
or planning on starting, stay the line
because you're on a life altering venture
and will develop skills and create
associations that will serve you
well. It's all about focus