KR> KRSuper2 BuilderOctober 1, 2009 7:19:03 AM MST
>Nice to see some interest in this machine. >There are a hardy few of us. . . I guess I am one of hardy few. I agree that I like the adventure and learning aspect of the build. I have the Horizontal done. It came in at 18lbs. Is that heavy? I know if I started over I could do better, lighter and faster. Hopefully this will help as I move onto the fuselage. Now that the weather is getting below triple digits I don't have to work in such tiny batches of epoxy. I had a batch of micro heat up on me and I had to toss it. I was able to use a few last bits of it patching door handle holes around the house. This list is a great inspiration to keep at it. 168 Hours in AZ -Kurt
KR> RE: "hard shelling"
Thanks Larry for the hard shelling tip. I am so going to use that. My problem was that I put a micro on to fill in gaps on the foam and then tried to sand them smooth with the foam and then I was hitting the foam and just making things worse and worse. I am glad that you actually tested it too. I'll have to check out the deck cloth. 155 Hours in AZ -Kurt
KR> So the sanding begins
Don't laugh too hard at my naiveté. I enjoy hearing your stories so much I thought I would add my own for the beginners out there. It is finally cooled down to the eighties here (at midnight) because of the storm sweeping through. I was laying up some thick micro on the foam boards of the Hstab and I couldn't get the right thickness. Too thick and it did not spread very well, too thin and it just ran everywhere. I am sure that the heat wasn't helping. So tonight I went out to sand it smoother and now I can see how the plane can get a nice finish. I always thought that if I took some sandpaper to this stuff it would just scratch it up to all heck. I was sanding for nearly 2 hours and it still has a lot more to go before I try and lay up the fiberglass on the the first side of the Hstab. The good news was that I took some of that extra thick micro and patched some door handle holes. It worked great. I do have a question, do you throw the peel ply away after one use? Anyway keep the stories coming. Everyday they are a huge motivator for me. Hopefully I feel worthy enough next year to attend the gathering. 150 Hours in AZ -Kurt
KR> Back Building Again
I cannot tell you all how wonderful this news group is. It has meant a lot to me as I had to put off building for the last 3 months. Now after (and I kid you not) 5 weddings and a funeral and the kids just started back in school I went back into the garage tonight. This list has really been an inspiration, so thanks. I am still finishing up the HStab. I plan on skinning it soon and then putting it in the oven. It has been a little bit of a challenge here in AZ as it only cools down to 90 degrees at night. I just layed up some flanges for the second time after a bad batch of glue made the first go round rubbery. -Kurt Several Hours in AZ
KR> Composite Material
I love meeting new people and tell them I am building a plane. Every once in awhile I get a surprise. I was at my niece's wedding in Seattle WA and I found out an old friend was a composite engineer at Boeing. I had no idea. We talked about materials for a couple of hours. I am going to hound him about getting some of their scraps. I don't know if it will ever happen, but a guy can dream. He had a lot of interesting information. Right now he is working on the manufacturing process because the manual layup increases the expenses to the point where the savings in weight are all lost. He says that the composite they use is Carbon that has to be held in sub zero temps until the time they actually lay it up and then they have 5 days to lay it up and cure it at 350 degrees. He says they pay about $100 a pound for the stuff and waste enough every day to build a small plane. You see why I want to get my hands on some? Anyway I am going to hit him up for more information I just thought I would share some of the stuff I picked up. He works at Boeing but doesn't really know about flying characteristics beyond knowing he has to design for bird strikes and the structural aspects are a completely different department. -Kurt 141 Hours in AZ
KR> Bad Fiberglass Layup
I couldn't continue working not knowing why the fiberglass was not hardening. So I created three samples and layed up 2 BID flanges on some scrap pieces. The first one was just what I had always done. Then I mixed the epoxy in an old soda can thinking maybe it was the bowls. Then I stirred the hardener and resin separately thinking maybe something had happened there. I mixed that result in a soda can as well. I layed up the BID and waited. The next day the fiberglass that had mixed the epoxy in the paper bowl was pliable while the two others were essentially cured and stiff. So it was the bowls. I thought I had been using the same bowls all along, but upon closer inspection these paper bowls may have a wax coating. I had bought a second batch of bowls at a different super market. I don't know why a previous layup did not have this problem. So I am switching to the aluminum cans for mixing. I just thought I would let everyone else know in case they ran into this problem. I knew not to mix in wax covered paper bowls. I thought the bowls were simply paper. -Kurt 141 Hours in AZ
KR> Flexible Fiberglass problem.
I got some good advice on the trivial question of brushes. Some of it was direct rather than on this list which makes me believe that some might be intimidated (like I am). So I have another question. I was laying up some 2 layer BID for a flange. I was doing 4 and the first 2 went beautiful. I thought the third was going fine, but 24 hours later I was surprised how flexible the 3rd was. I could easily bend it. The previous 2 were stiff as boards. It was 90 degrees yesterday here in AZ so I can't believe the temperature was a factor. It was the same epoxy that I had used on the other 2. I let it go another 24 hours and it is still a little pliable. Should I just let it cure eventually? Did I mix the epoxy bad? I didn't do anything different that I can tell. I have some wings that I believe were purchased from Diehl. I kind of inherited them and I have no intention on using them. They have them advertised as $2700. I don't know if they are worth anything to anybody. I keep meaning to do something with them, but I don't know if posting them on EBay would attract any attention. I figure they got to be worth at least $500? I could get my expenses back and fund some further building, if I got that much out of them. -Kurt 141 Hours in AZ
KR> Cleaning Brushes and Buying Peel Ply
Good thing I love what I am doing. I spent 3 hours last night cutting out the VStab spar and leading edge. I did it twice and will have to do it again. I know a table saw would make it easier, but it is not in the budget. So 3 hours down the drain. I love hearing all of the near and completed project stories, but I am still in the learning how to use my tools phase. I actually layed up some fiberglass for the HStab spar flange and thought "Hey, it actually looks like I know what I am doing." So here is a question: After laying up fiberglass I have tried to clean my brush, but I end up throwing it away because it just hardens from all the epoxy/resin. I tried soaking it in Acetone (which after the Acetone evaporated just glued it to the bottom of the cannister, who knew?) I tried just wiping them off with Acetone, but that didn't return the brush to useability. The brushes are only 50 cents at Harbour Freight, but if there was a better way. Also: I need to buy some peel ply for the fiberglass layup. I was told I could just go to any fabric store to save on shipping from Aircraft spruce, but no one at JoAnn's knew what I was needing, any suggestions? Good news is that my wife was making some chalk boards and I just used some flox and 5 min epoxy and created a much nicer job than her original with joint nails. -Kurt 130 Hours in AZ
KR> Vacuum Bag Composite?
I was laying up some BID on some foam for the VStab parts. I layed up the one side and then went back to the HStab. Several days later as I was waiting for some curing on the HStab I went back to the one sided glassed foam to lay up the other side. Because of the way I had stored it there was a significant curve in it. I layed up the BID on the other side and then I put some duct tape on some boards and then placed some heavy water bottles on the boards to let it cure flat. The next day when I took off the water bottles and boards I had a surface that was smooth as glass. So I was wondering if it would make sense to apply a similar technique elsewhere. I am about ready to apply the final layup of fiberglass on the HStab. Should I lay down some peel ply and then vacuum bag the whole thing? I went to a little local fly in and they had some composite planes and my son-in-law asked if my surface was going to be that smooth. I told him I thought so, but I didn't know how it would get that way. Is that smooth final surface achieved with primer and sanding alone? -Kurt 128 hours in AZ
KR> Stress and Balance Horizontal
I don't know if there is a way to test what I have done. I followed a link from this list (http://www.xs4all.nl/~hermhart/phamj/) and there was a picture where he had the tail section on a workbench with the caption "tail section measured and balanced" Since I consider myself the least capable person to build an airplane I always wonder how do I know for sure that things are right without finding out 100' above the ground. I had my friend come over and check what I was doing and we went over a lot of stuff to eliminate any twist as I begin to lay down the panels on the Horizontal. After about an hour he says, "If after laying the panels we can still twist it then all this was for no reason other than to get practice getting things straight" I am glad I have some one to somewhat sign off on my work and I do feel like I am getting better but I am still afraid of what I don't know. On another note: Why hasn't an open source or Wiki design been done. The wisdom of many could result in a royalty free best of class. We sort of have that with all of the fabulous help that Mark and others have documented. I was just wondering. >What do you mean by " balance or stress test ". I think what you should do, >is keep on building.
KR> Still Building
I feel like I am making some progress. I reached a milestone of sorts by finishing my first box of gloves. I am only up to 90 hours. I had hoped I would have got more hours under my belt by now, but things happen. I am still just working on the HStab. I had to go out to CA and so I picked up some more parts from Spruce. I saved about $300 by not shipping them. The fuselage (I am following the Scott Watts version) which I hopefully will start building in Mar requires long foam boards so the extra freight and the hazardous waste charge for the glue is where I really saved money. I feel like I am getting better at what I am doing, but today I just wanted to start all over. I actually measured something, cut it, and it fit! I am destined to build everything two or three times. I am glad this group mentioned Harbour Freight. We have one a couple blocks away and I never even knew it existed. I picked up a bunch of clamps for a quarter of the price I would have paid at Lowe's(t). I even picked up a dremel like rotary tool for $8. How is it I never heard of this place. Probably because I never used tools before. This email group is very inspiring. I don't have much to add, I just thought I would give a progress update that might make some feel like they are not the only ones with miles to go before we sleep. Kurt 90 hours in AZ. BTW I don't know if everyone is aware of the interactive courses on AOPA site. They are great for some one like me who didn't even know what an angle of attack was. http://www.aopa.org/asf/online_courses/
KR> WorldPress
I am new to building and my enthusiasm may wane, but it hasn't yet. I am trying to balance life and this new obsession. I set a couple of rules, like no building if the kitchen isn't clean. I found that I want to spend less time documenting and more time in the garage. Facebook is an easy way for me to keep family and friends up to date. I don't know how Mark L or Scott Watts do it. I love their stuff, but I don't know how they have the time to build and document. I am going to CA this weekend and therefore I can't spend anytime building so I will be able to hopefully get a little caught up. Right now I just take pictures and post them on Facebook. I don't know the end of this project so I will hopefully reread the stuff that Scott has written and get a month ahead. I will also make a little trip to Spruce to pick up a months worth of supplies. I had bigger plans for documenting, but I will have to let go of them. One thought I had was to create a Wiki site like Wikipedia where everyone can add and correct. The goal then that the sum total of everyone's knowledge will be better than any one person's. >You could always try setting up a BLOG on World Press (worldpress.com and worldpress.org) It's a little involved and you might get some input you don't like, but you could always send your BLOG contact info to the net and folks could check your stuff and comment as they like. Just a thought. Mark W N952MW (res)
KR> Rectractable Landing Gear
Does anyone want the retractable gear for the KR. I haven't look at them that closely. I am not trying to make any money off of them, I am just trying to recoup my cost on this stuff I bought. I am not going retractable so I have no use for them. I thought I would post her before I posted on barnstormers or ebay. If you want them tell me how much above shipping you would pay for them. I don't know if you can even still get these. I may end up sending them to the local salvage yard. -Kurt 58 Hours in AZ
KR> RE: Check out my Facebook profile
I am keeping track of all my progress on Facebook too. Unfortunately there is no way that I know of to separate friends so you will have to see all the pictures of my family etc. It is where I am posting my slow progress. You can search for Kurt Clement. If you do a friend request let me know it was from the KR list so I can confirm. -Kurt 58 hours in AZ I set up a Facebook profile where I can post my pictures, videos and events and I want to add you as a friend so you can see it. First, you need to join Facebook! Once you join, you can also create your own profile. Thanks, Laura To sign up for Facebook, follow the link below: http://www.facebook.com/p.php?i=1232502131=45GZY6QS3Z3M5AE1WK4UTV
KR> Partial KRs acquired.
When I first was introduced to this world it was because I ran into a hanger with the beginnings of a KR project. I thought they were soap box cars to be pushed down a hill. Well now I have spent over $600 and I have spent over 50 hours on this new obsession. I have tools that I didn't even know the name of. Then the widow of the owner of the hanger told me if I wanted to buy the projects I could have them. I guess she gave up trying to sell them for the thousands of dollars she thought they were worth. Now I got 3 partial builds in my garage. I have the most understanding wife on the planet. I guess I can try to scavange some parts off of them and try to sell what is left. Until then I sat in one of them with my wife and had her imagine flying to LA. The pictures are priceless. I have the most understanding wife. -Kurt Clement 50 hours in AZ
KR> Nice to talk to someone at my stage of the game
I love reading all the posts from those who have finished and are flying and making modifications, but it sure was nice to talk to someone I met through this list who is just getting started like I am. I spoke with Dave from MN for awhile on the phone and it was nice to hear him thinking about some of the same things I am. I am learning as I go. I just spent two hours measuring the 88" spar for the HStab and I am off 1/8" on the last hole. Now my measuring is getting better, but obviously needs some improvement. I don't mind spending two hours measuring and re-measuring, but in the end I want it to be right. I just read in Jack Lambie's book that 4 or 5 hours after laying up the fiberglass I should trim the excess. I wish I would have read that before. I let some overhang completely cure and now I am using sheet metal sheers to cut the excess. I am still loving it. -Kurt 40+ hours and counting.
KR> $500 HStab Spar
Well after 6 hours of building (not including countless hours of planning and tool buying) I have my first part. A $500 Horizontal Stabalizer Spar. This is fun. A pilot friend of mine asked me if I wanted to go to Oshkosh with him. Probably because building and flying are all I ever want to talk about. Will they have a Corvair workshop of some sort there? -Kurt Clement
KR> Committing with my first purchase.
Ok I had a lot of good responses to my first email. I find this list just as importantly motivating as informational. Unfortunately no opportunities for a check ride here in AZ. Fortunately I am able to work in SoCal (I work for Bank of America) and we go often to visit family. I couldn't help it I had to go by the Rand Robinson office. Well I shouldn't have been surprised it was a UPS store mailbox. I then went to Aircraft Spruce. I browsed around in the store practically salivating. Some one asked me if I needed help. Stupidly I said "I don't know" I think I ment that I don't know if I am ready for this. Eventually I bellied up to the bar and ordered. 10 yards of BID and four sheets of Last-a-Foam. All of this I got from Steve's KR Super 2 site. I asked about the difference between Aero Epoxy verses the T-88 and the guys said about $10. I went with the Aero Poxy. I spent $300 which to me is a real commitment. I saved on shipping and the $60 Hazerdous Material transportation fee. I'll have to wait until I get back to start playing with the Fiberglass. In the meantime I have been running through the courses on AOPA's site (I am a complete newbie to even flying) http://www.aopa.org/asf/online_courses/ They are awesome. I am looking at my little purchase as if it were Christmas all over again. I still don't know if I am going to get the KR boats, but I am moving forward either way. I figure learning how to lay glass while building the HStab will be educational and will test my commitment and enjoyment of the process. -Kurt
KR> Anyone in Tucson AZ that can offer a check it out ride on Saturday?
I will try and make this short, but my enthusiasm for this group is just overwhelming. We moved to Chandler AZ last year and discovered there is an airport in our neighborhood. My previous experience with airports was limited to LAX. I couldn't believe people could drive their planes into their backyards. So a friend at church has taken me flying a couple of times. On one of our adventures we went to check out an old Cessna that was for sale in Goodyear. In the back of the hanger was what looked to me like a soap box kart. Boyd tells me it was the start of a KR build. What?! That was going to be something someone would fly? Two people? So he had me look it up online and of course I found this group. The more I read the more I wanted to read. I started getting obsessive. My every conversation with Boyd would turn to the building of a KR. I didn't even know that real people could build their own plane. I read every email for this entire year. (I could read about a month a day) I read about Steve's cross country trip, Mark's deer strike, other Mark's sunset adventures. I couldn't get enough. More than the technical tips which at first was overwhelming with foreign terms like PIO, WAF, etc. was the building and flying experiences which were so motivating. I told my wife I had to do this. So she said I could offer to buy the started project in Goodyear if that is what I wanted for Christmas. Boyd, who is very enthusiastic about flying, became the voice of reason. He pointed me to the last issue of KitPlanes and had me look at other homebuilts. He suggested that I consider Sonerai or Mustang. I looked and I still am convinced that the KR is the plane I want to build. Boyd is suggesting that I take a ride in a KR before I commit. So that leads me to my subject. We are going to be in Tucson on Saturday. Can anyone give me and my wife a quick ride around? I would pay for gas or other expenses. If my wife enjoys her ride I am golden on starting this adventure. I am so convinced that I want to do this that anything short of a crash would seal the deal for me. Thanks, Kurt Clement
