KR> Lets try that again...

[Gary Hinkle]

I have spun my KR2. And it went flat. And it is a miracle that i am able to 
type this response.?


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: colin hales via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 05/11/2016  23:31  (GMT-05:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org 
Cc: colin hales  
Subject: KR> Lets try that again... 

As I said, I
read what is written and mostly stay stub. That is until I read something that I
know myself is 100% factually incorrect and that might effect the decision of
someone trying to make a very personal choice. Then I just think it not proper
or correct that miss information is bantered around. I feel a need to put
things right. Therefore, if full
details are not known about the topic with 100% confidence, then you shouldn't
really say anything especially when safety matters and personal losses are
involved.



Gentlemen,? let us all agree that you
don?t have to look far before you read of many KR2 in flight failures. 



NTSB Identification: WPR11FA155?? quote : The rapid
descent was probably initiated by the separation of about half of the vertical
stabilizer as a result of severe turbulence while the airplane was near the
location of the final radar return. The departure of a portion of the vertical
stabilizer and pieces of the rudder would have resulted in the pilot?s inability
to control the airplane, followed by a rapid descent and subsequent in-flight
breakup.



KR2 G-BOLZ in
the UK, broke up in the air, admittedly after a mid air
collision that killed three of my friends.



But these are
extreme cases.? Anyway it doesn?t need to
be an inflight break up that causes you to want to get out and pull a string.



We all know
that the last reported radio transmissions from Ken Rand were, 



 At 3:45 Ken reported he was icing -- at 8,000 feet. At 3:53 the last 
transmission was received:
"I'm at three thousand and I'm going to hit!"



Another Kr pilot
carried out this unwise manoeuvres detailed below, 



 the
pilot initiated an intentional spin, throttling the engine to idle, pulling on
the carburetor heat, and increasing the nose up attitude of the airplane until
it stalled and entered a spin to the left. During the first few rotations the
engine quit, and the propeller stopped turning. After several rotations the
spin stabilized about 20 degrees nose down, and remained in the steady state
until impact. During the descent the pilot was observed attempting various
control inputs without effect.



A canopy latch
coming undone, is enough to open a sideways hinging canopy and have it detach
in flight. With the disturbed airflow over the tailplane, it makes the aircraft
very difficult to control.



So it does not
need to be structural failure of our beloved planes that makes one need to
think a little more. Had these four pilots been wearing a parachute, what would
have been the outcome and their actions? The structural integrity of the KR2 is
not in doubt, but sometimes, certain factors negate this. But lets all agree not
to say there have never been any known in flight failures of any kind, as its
just not true.



I come from a
gliding back ground. I have worn a parachute through all of my flying of
gliders, therefore I am biased. it is compulsory in some clubs to wear chutes, 
due to the close proximity to other
gliders in thermaling flight. I?d never be without one personally after seeing 
three mid airs when racing gliders. But lets try
and keep this to facts and nothing personal. There are on average 30 mid air
collisions a year throughout Europe. Not everyone needs to get out, next to no 
glider pilots are
professional sky divers yet the success rate for getting out is very very high. 
Different
countries quote different figures.



An ?air
experience? member of the public who had never flown a glider before was taking
a flight in a K21 glider in England in 2009. The glider was hit by
lightning and the rapid increase in temperature of the air within the wings
blew them apart and the melting of the control tubes meant that staying in the
glider was no longer a viable option. The paying passenger hadn?t even been
shown how to use the parachute, just how to open the cockpit and undo his
straps. He worked it all out and landed uninjured. The pilot in the back 
sprained his ankle. Our BBC
made a documentary about it.



Glider pilots
in Europe are taught that if you can not get out
of the aircraft because of high wind forces keeping you in or the glider is 
spinning or out of control or your legs are
trapped in the straps, or under the instrument panel, just lean forward or try 
to
stand up and simply pull the cord. On many designs, this fires out on a spring 
the primary chute that pulls out the main chute and the chute will inflate and 
pull you out
rapidly whether you are ready or not. The lowest known recorded height a glider 
emergency chute was open was 400ft. He
survived. Parargliders have emergency ch

KR> Lets try that again...

[Robert Pesak]

Dan, 1 o'clock Monday will be fine thank you


Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S? 5, an AT 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Larry Flesner via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 05/12/2016  9:01 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: KRnet  
Cc: Larry Flesner  
Subject: Re: KR> Lets try that again... 


How ironic that the very next e-mail I received 
after my post was the following:

Larry Flesner
+++
You can solve them.

How?

By entering your design, concept, or idea into 
the EAA Founder?s Innovation Prize challenge.

The 2016 
<http://go.eaa.org/Q0FU00E0S93Bg0K5O00b0q0>Founder's 
Innovation Prize is a contest to help solve the 
problem of fatal loss-of-control accidents in amateur-built aircraft.
Five final individuals or teams will get the 
chance to present their submissions to a panel of 
esteemed judges ? live at AirVenture!

The grand prize winner will receive $25,000.

Are you, yes YOU, ready to make a difference?


<http://go.eaa.org/Q0FU00E0S93Bg0K5O00b0q0>Submit Your Idea
___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change 
options

KR> Lets try that again...

[JAMES DUFF]

This is the P51 low-altitude bailout I previously mentioned and which Colin 
also described.
https://youtu.be/xctYWSuwoYA
I'm not sure how robust the weight argument against a parachute is against a 
context of many builders having already reconciled a near 50% increase in empty 
weight for their KR2 over design by adding gadgets, bigger engines etc. 10lbs 
for a parachute is nothing. As Colin says, it's personal choice but I'd sooner 
have it and hopefully never need it than have time to contemplate going in hard 
with an aircraft I'd rather have abandoned.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 

  On Thu, 12 May, 2016 at 4:33, colin hales via KRnet 
wrote:   As I said, I
read what is written and mostly stay stub. That is until I read something that I
know myself is 100% factually incorrect and that might effect the decision of
someone trying to make a very personal choice. Then I just think it not proper
or correct that miss information is bantered around. I feel a need to put
things right. Therefore, if full
details are not known about the topic with 100% confidence, then you shouldn't
really say anything especially when safety matters and personal losses are
involved.



Gentlemen,? let us all agree that you
don?t have to look far before you read of many KR2 in flight failures. 



NTSB Identification: WPR11FA155? quote : The rapid
descent was probably initiated by the separation of about half of the vertical
stabilizer as a result of severe turbulence while the airplane was near the
location of the final radar return. The departure of a portion of the vertical
stabilizer and pieces of the rudder would have resulted in the pilot?s inability
to control the airplane, followed by a rapid descent and subsequent in-flight
breakup.



KR2 G-BOLZ in
the UK, broke up in the air, admittedly after a mid air
collision that killed three of my friends.



But these are
extreme cases.? Anyway it doesn?t need to
be an inflight break up that causes you to want to get out and pull a string.



We all know
that the last reported radio transmissions from Ken Rand were, 



 At 3:45 Ken reported he was icing -- at 8,000 feet. At 3:53 the last 
transmission was received:
"I'm at three thousand and I'm going to hit!"



Another Kr pilot
carried out this unwise manoeuvres detailed below, 



 the
pilot initiated an intentional spin, throttling the engine to idle, pulling on
the carburetor heat, and increasing the nose up attitude of the airplane until
it stalled and entered a spin to the left. During the first few rotations the
engine quit, and the propeller stopped turning. After several rotations the
spin stabilized about 20 degrees nose down, and remained in the steady state
until impact. During the descent the pilot was observed attempting various
control inputs without effect.



A canopy latch
coming undone, is enough to open a sideways hinging canopy and have it detach
in flight. With the disturbed airflow over the tailplane, it makes the aircraft
very difficult to control.



So it does not
need to be structural failure of our beloved planes that makes one need to
think a little more. Had these four pilots been wearing a parachute, what would
have been the outcome and their actions? The structural integrity of the KR2 is
not in doubt, but sometimes, certain factors negate this. But lets all agree not
to say there have never been any known in flight failures of any kind, as its
just not true.



I come from a
gliding back ground. I have worn a parachute through all of my flying of
gliders, therefore I am biased. it is compulsory in some clubs to wear chutes, 
due to the close proximity to other
gliders in thermaling flight. I?d never be without one personally after seeing 
three mid airs when racing gliders. But lets try
and keep this to facts and nothing personal. There are on average 30 mid air
collisions a year throughout Europe. Not everyone needs to get out, next to no 
glider pilots are
professional sky divers yet the success rate for getting out is very very high. 
Different
countries quote different figures.



An ?air
experience? member of the public who had never flown a glider before was taking
a flight in a K21 glider in England in 2009. The glider was hit by
lightning and the rapid increase in temperature of the air within the wings
blew them apart and the melting of the control tubes meant that staying in the
glider was no longer a viable option. The paying passenger hadn?t even been
shown how to use the parachute, just how to open the cockpit and undo his
straps. He worked it all out and landed uninjured. The pilot in the back 
sprained his ankle. Our BBC
made a documentary about it.



Glider pilots
in Europe are taught that if you can not get out
of the aircraft because of high wind forces keeping you in or the glider is 
spinning or out of control or your legs are
trapped in the straps, or under the instrument panel, just lean forward or try 
to
stand up and simply pull the cord. On many designs, this 

KR> Lets try that again...

[Larry Flesner]

How ironic that the very next e-mail I received 
after my post was the following:

Larry Flesner
+++
You can solve them.

How?

By entering your design, concept, or idea into 
the EAA Founder?s Innovation Prize challenge.

The 2016 
Founder's 
Innovation Prize is a contest to help solve the 
problem of fatal loss-of-control accidents in amateur-built aircraft.
Five final individuals or teams will get the 
chance to present their submissions to a panel of 
esteemed judges ? live at AirVenture!

The grand prize winner will receive $25,000.

Are you, yes YOU, ready to make a difference?


Submit Your Idea

KR> Lets try that again...

[Larry Flesner]

At 10:31 PM 5/11/2016, you wrote:
>   That is 60 feet for a paraglider
>chute and 400 ft for a normal emergency chute operated by a complete novice,
>not the staggering 4,000 ft that was quoted. The chutes we use hear 
>at the gliding club are 12 lb and they indeed have a rated
>minimum deployment altitude of 400ft.
+

I don't recall anyone making that statement, certainly not me.  My 
statement was "I would suggest that anything happening to warrant an 
exit would have to happen at or above 3000 feet if you were to have 
any chance of a clean exit, stabilize and pull the rip cord, and get 
a good canopy".  To use the example of the Mustang pilot surviving a 
low altitude bailout and suggesting any or all low altitude bailouts 
are survivable gives one a false sense of security.  It took the 
Mustang pilot 17 seconds after impact to even exit the aircraft.  The 
reason he even had 17 seconds was the aircraft maintained stable 
horizontal flight after the impact and he had horizontal speed to 
help deploy the chute.  Had the aircraft gone in to uncontrollable 
flight the probabilities are he would be a dead man.  Having to 
depart the aircraft at low altitude and getting those ideal 
conditions is going to be very rare. The other examples given give no 
indication of how high the aircraft were when the need arose to 
exit.  The human body will reach terminal velocity of 176 feet per 
second in the first 4 or 5 seconds of free fall and that is in a 
stabilized arch position.  Tumbling, head first, feet first will 
increase the decent rate.  That translate to 5.5 seconds for every 
1000 feet of altitude.  You decide your minimum exit altitude.

While it may be standard training at some glider fields to deploy the 
chute while in the cockpit, that has to be one of those "hell, I'm 
going to die anyway" decisions and should not be considered to be a 
viable option.  Before the door on a jump plane is opened at altitude 
there is an "equipment check".  If all chutes are not securely in the 
pack, the door is never opened and the entire load rides back down 
with the pilot.  Jumpers have been known to exit through the side of 
an aircraft when their pack opened in the aircraft, the canopy sucked 
out the door, and the lines slicing thought the thin metal of the 
aircraft skin.  The jump master at the local drop zone once had his 
chute open outside the aircraft while still on the step.  He was very 
lucky that the chute did not hang up on the tail assembly but when it 
pulled him off the step he went up side down under the horizontal 
stabilizer and his shin hit the lead edge, tearing the horizontal 
stab loose and giving him a huge lump on his leg.  He was fortunate 
that both he and the aircraft survived.

While wearing a chute might someday save your life, don't let it lull 
you in to making questionable decisions that put you in a situation 
where you need it, thinking you'll just bail if things don't work 
out.  It should only be used in a "I'm going to die anyway" moment.

Colin's type of long distance flying probably makes his wearing a 
chute a good decision but that's not the typical realm of the average KR.

Larry Flesner 

KR> Lets try that again...

[colin hales]

As I said, I
read what is written and mostly stay stub. That is until I read something that I
know myself is 100% factually incorrect and that might effect the decision of
someone trying to make a very personal choice. Then I just think it not proper
or correct that miss information is bantered around. I feel a need to put
things right. Therefore, if full
details are not known about the topic with 100% confidence, then you shouldn't
really say anything especially when safety matters and personal losses are
involved.



Gentlemen,  let us all agree that you
don?t have to look far before you read of many KR2 in flight failures. 



NTSB Identification: WPR11FA155   quote : The rapid
descent was probably initiated by the separation of about half of the vertical
stabilizer as a result of severe turbulence while the airplane was near the
location of the final radar return. The departure of a portion of the vertical
stabilizer and pieces of the rudder would have resulted in the pilot?s inability
to control the airplane, followed by a rapid descent and subsequent in-flight
breakup.



KR2 G-BOLZ in
the UK, broke up in the air, admittedly after a mid air
collision that killed three of my friends.



But these are
extreme cases.  Anyway it doesn?t need to
be an inflight break up that causes you to want to get out and pull a string.



We all know
that the last reported radio transmissions from Ken Rand were, 



 At 3:45 Ken reported he was icing -- at 8,000 feet. At 3:53 the last 
transmission was received:
"I'm at three thousand and I'm going to hit!"



Another Kr pilot
carried out this unwise manoeuvres detailed below, 



 the
pilot initiated an intentional spin, throttling the engine to idle, pulling on
the carburetor heat, and increasing the nose up attitude of the airplane until
it stalled and entered a spin to the left. During the first few rotations the
engine quit, and the propeller stopped turning. After several rotations the
spin stabilized about 20 degrees nose down, and remained in the steady state
until impact. During the descent the pilot was observed attempting various
control inputs without effect.



A canopy latch
coming undone, is enough to open a sideways hinging canopy and have it detach
in flight. With the disturbed airflow over the tailplane, it makes the aircraft
very difficult to control.



So it does not
need to be structural failure of our beloved planes that makes one need to
think a little more. Had these four pilots been wearing a parachute, what would
have been the outcome and their actions? The structural integrity of the KR2 is
not in doubt, but sometimes, certain factors negate this. But lets all agree not
to say there have never been any known in flight failures of any kind, as its
just not true.



I come from a
gliding back ground. I have worn a parachute through all of my flying of
gliders, therefore I am biased. it is compulsory in some clubs to wear chutes, 
due to the close proximity to other
gliders in thermaling flight. I?d never be without one personally after seeing 
three mid airs when racing gliders. But lets try
and keep this to facts and nothing personal. There are on average 30 mid air
collisions a year throughout Europe. Not everyone needs to get out, next to no 
glider pilots are
professional sky divers yet the success rate for getting out is very very high. 
Different
countries quote different figures.



An ?air
experience? member of the public who had never flown a glider before was taking
a flight in a K21 glider in England in 2009. The glider was hit by
lightning and the rapid increase in temperature of the air within the wings
blew them apart and the melting of the control tubes meant that staying in the
glider was no longer a viable option. The paying passenger hadn?t even been
shown how to use the parachute, just how to open the cockpit and undo his
straps. He worked it all out and landed uninjured. The pilot in the back 
sprained his ankle. Our BBC
made a documentary about it.



Glider pilots
in Europe are taught that if you can not get out
of the aircraft because of high wind forces keeping you in or the glider is 
spinning or out of control or your legs are
trapped in the straps, or under the instrument panel, just lean forward or try 
to
stand up and simply pull the cord. On many designs, this fires out on a spring 
the primary chute that pulls out the main chute and the chute will inflate and 
pull you out
rapidly whether you are ready or not. The lowest known recorded height a glider 
emergency chute was open was 400ft. He
survived. Parargliders have emergency chutes on board that will deploy in
60ft.  That is 60 feet for a paraglider
chute and 400 ft for a normal emergency chute operated by a complete novice,
not the staggering 4,000 ft that was quoted. The chutes we use hear at the 
gliding club are 12 lb and they indeed have a rated
minimum deployment altitude of 400ft. The guy getting out of the struck P51
mustang in England last year after