KR> parachutes

[Gary Hinkle]

To answer the spin question, DON'T DO IT ON PURPOSE! Not going to tell the 
story, but had about 100 feet when I recovered. Started at 3000 ft.And a 
parachute would not have helped. Wanted to add ?that before those comments 
started. Could not have gotten out.?


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: jsellars--- via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 05/11/2016  09:23  (GMT-05:00) 
To: 'KRnet'  
Cc: jsellars at sellarswealthmanagement.com 
Subject: Re: KR> parachutes 

Mark;
I agree completely with your assessment.? I have had three events
with my KR2 in the past and never was it the fault of the airframe.? Always
an engine event.? Jumping out was that last thing I would consider, as the
plane is a dream to fly!? It goes exactly where and how you ask it.? So
landing even in difficult conditions or terrain is doable. 
I have a question however, I have stalled the KR2 but I did not spin
it.? Does anyone have experience with spinning a KR2.? Seems the close
coupling would make that an interesting aviation experiment.? The tail is a
bit small so would it stop the rotation?? If you have any thought please
share.
Best
Jim

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Mark Langford
via KRnet
Sent: May 10, 2016 11:22 PM
To: KRnet 
Cc: Mark Langford 
Subject: KR> parachutes

Regarding parachutes, it's worth mentioning that there's never been an
inflight structural failure of a KR (the all-composite one at high speed at
the Gathering doesn't count, in my mind), although there is a question of
elevator bellcrank failure in one plane, but it's possible it was crash
induced.? There may be others, but no spar or fuselage failure that I know
of.

So given that record and the many thousands of KR hours logged, what are the
chances that you're going to have to go down somewhere so inhospitable that
you can do some semblance of a landing somewhere? 
Even if it's in the tree tops, you'll likely survive it.? So assuming you
are still in control of a plane that's capable of gliding, I'd just stall it
in the tree tops somewhere.? John Schaffer did that in a flat spin from
8000', and survived.

And how much time do you spend over that kind of terrain in Missouri anyway?
Your chances are looking better already!? Jeff Scott probably doesn't like
what he sees out the window 75% of the time, but he doesn't wear a
parachute.

Jumping out of a spinning or otherwise disabled plane is not without its
risks as well...perhaps higher than sticking with the plane to put it on the
ground somewhere.? You could get whacked in the head by the horizontal
stabilizer, or your parachute might be a streamer, etc.? And what if your
plane crashes into a house and kills a family eating lunch? 
? That'd be bad.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you are so concerned about a structural
or control failure, you should probably start thinking twin engines and lot
of other redundancy.? Statistics are on your side though...if your plane
goes down, it'll likely be a fuel problem or a broken crankshaft, and then
you simply land in a field or on a road.? At least that way you still have a
plane that you can rebuild or scavenge for parts, or just maybe, it won't
have a scratch on it!? No need to carry 20 pounds around for years expecting
it to pay off someday, when it likely won't.

I have about 1400 hours of KR time, and I've had plenty of engine problems,
and zero structural problems.? With the plane 20 pounds lighter, and the
comfort of not being packed into my seat with a parachute, I've had some
pretty smooth and enjoyable flying so far.

And yes, I do know that the second engine is just there to get you to the
scene of the crash...

--
Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com


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KR> parachutes

[Gary Hinkle]

Very well stated. Stay with the plane. Fires don't burn for more than seconds. 
Fuel should be turned off.?Engine failure is the most likely item. Other than 
IFR screwups, engines stopping is what brings them down. Not fires.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Mark Langford via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 05/10/2016  22:22  (GMT-05:00) 
To: KRnet  
Cc: Mark Langford  
Subject: KR> parachutes 

Regarding parachutes, it's worth mentioning that there's never been an 
inflight structural failure of a KR (the all-composite one at high speed 
at the Gathering doesn't count, in my mind), although there is a 
question of elevator bellcrank failure in one plane, but it's possible 
it was crash induced.? There may be others, but no spar or fuselage 
failure that I know of.

So given that record and the many thousands of KR hours logged, what are 
the chances that you're going to have to go down somewhere so 
inhospitable that you can do some semblance of a landing somewhere? 
Even if it's in the tree tops, you'll likely survive it.? So assuming 
you are still in control of a plane that's capable of gliding, I'd just 
stall it in the tree tops somewhere.? John Schaffer did that in a flat 
spin from 8000', and survived.

And how much time do you spend over that kind of terrain in Missouri 
anyway?? Your chances are looking better already!? Jeff Scott probably 
doesn't like what he sees out the window 75% of the time, but he doesn't 
wear a parachute.

Jumping out of a spinning or otherwise disabled plane is not without its 
risks as well...perhaps higher than sticking with the plane to put it on 
the ground somewhere.? You could get whacked in the head by the 
horizontal stabilizer, or your parachute might be a streamer, etc.? And 
what if your plane crashes into a house and kills a family eating lunch? 
? That'd be bad.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you are so concerned about a 
structural or control failure, you should probably start thinking twin 
engines and lot of other redundancy.? Statistics are on your side 
though...if your plane goes down, it'll likely be a fuel problem or a 
broken crankshaft, and then you simply land in a field or on a road.? At 
least that way you still have a plane that you can rebuild or scavenge 
for parts, or just maybe, it won't have a scratch on it!? No need to 
carry 20 pounds around for years expecting it to pay off someday, when 
it likely won't.

I have about 1400 hours of KR time, and I've had plenty of engine 
problems, and zero structural problems.? With the plane 20 pounds 
lighter, and the comfort of not being packed into my seat with a 
parachute, I've had some pretty smooth and enjoyable flying so far.

And yes, I do know that the second engine is just there to get you to 
the scene of the crash...

-- 
Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com


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KR> parachutes

[Chris Prata]

hi mark,  have not started building the KR1 yet so thats an issue for sometime 
along the way.  most are hinged to the side that I've seen IIRC

> From: flykr2s at charter.net
> Subject: Re: KR> parachutes
> Date: Wed, 11 May 2016 20:15:44 -0500
> CC: chrisprata at live.com
> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> 
> Chris. I may have missed this but how is your canopy mounted Z no how will 
> you deal with opening it to get out?
> 

KR> parachutes

[Mark Jones]

Chris. I may have missed this but how is your canopy mounted Z no how will you 
deal with opening it to get out?

Mark Jones 

Sent from my iPhone 6

> On May 11, 2016, at 10:16 AM, Chris Prata via KRnet  
> wrote:
> 
> I believe my chute is a national 360, which I just checked weights 10.8lbs 
> and is 1.75" thick.  at least thats the new specs for a 360. I can live with 
> the 10lbs. In the unlikely event of a fire (which is what started the 
> discussion), I will get out in time, believe that.
> Safety gear is a personal decision. Even if it just adds confidence, has 
> value. 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
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> options

KR> PARACHUTES

[Paul Visk]

About flying over the top. I would like to give an educated opinion on this 
subject.?If you want to fly over a cloud deck. You really need to have the 
ability to keep the top side up if something happens to where you have to glide 
through that deck. ?I'm not saying you need to have a full six pack with all 
the gizmos and a IFR rating. ?Just a simple attitude indicator or a turn and 
back gauge with a VSI. AND practice with a hood. Whenever I go flying with 
another pilot. I get some hood time.?When Ray and I went on a sightseeing 
flight last year at McMinnville. ?We had to get a pop up IFR clearance to get 
back. ?I wasn't current but I had no problems getting back because I 
practice.?All I'm saying is. If your going to put your self in that situation 
be prepared. And you may not need to think about a parachute. This goes with 
flying at night also.?I forgot to mention. ?I did have a CFII next to me when 
Ray and I went up.?
Paul Visk ?Belleville IL ?618 406 4705





Sent on the new Sprint Network from my Samsung Galaxy S?4













 Original message 
From: ol' weirdo via KRnet  
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 05/11/2016  1:18 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org 
Cc: ol' weirdo  
Subject: KR> PARACHUTES 

Colin hales makes an interesting point re parachutes. Is baling out an
acceptable action if one is caught on top?

Bill Weir

KR> PARACHUTES

[ol' weirdo]

Colin hales makes an interesting point re parachutes. Is baling out an
acceptable action if one is caught on top?

Bill Weir


Virus-free.
www.avast.com

<#DDB4FAA8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

KR> parachutes

[JAMES DUFF]

The only crash I've ever witnessed personally was a mid air collision at low 
altitude (Douglas Skyraider vs Mustang). I was fairly convinced I was watching 
a fatal accident unfolding, but the unflyable of the two aircraft's pilot 
bailed in a steep dive at very low altitude and got a clean chute before 
disappearing from view. He was found sat in a field with a sore arm.
My wife was wife me and decided from that point on I'd only ever fly with a 
parachute. I'd much rather carry a 10lb insurance policy than rely on 
probability and statistics.
Best regards,
Jamie

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 

  On Wed, 11 May, 2016 at 16:22, Tommy Waymack via KRnet wrote:   Got to agree with all the ideas on this subject.Safety 
is an important
consideration in flying.I wish it were otherwise.Fly safe and keep
building.Tommy W.

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Chris Prata via KRnet <
krnet at list.krnet.org> wrote:

> I believe my chute is a national 360, which I just checked weights 10.8lbs
> and is 1.75" thick.? at least thats the new specs for a 360. I can live
> with the 10lbs. In the unlikely event of a fire (which is what started the
> discussion), I will get out in time, believe that.
> Safety gear is a personal decision. Even if it just adds confidence, has
> value.
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
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>
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KR> parachutes

[Jeff Scott]

If one is giving serious thought to always flying with a parachute, I would 
recommend giving serious consideration to engineering in a BRS system from the 
beginning. In a KR, I would think that would mean extending the engine mount 
and cowl in order to accommodate the additional weight of the BRS system under 
the turtle deck.
?
Look at the number of "saves" claimed by Cirrus.? A big part of buying a Cirrus 
Aircraft is doing the Cirrus Pilot Training, which is quite heavy on training 
for "when to pull the handle", 'cause "If you haven't planned for it, and 
haven't trained for it, you won't do it."?
?
In the last 8 years, I have had 8 friends perish in aircraft crashes.? That is 
a pretty significant number.? Of those, had the pilot been wearing a chute, one 
of them likely would have been able to exit the aircraft and would have 
survived.? Had their aircraft all been equipped with a BRS system and the pilot 
willing to use it, it is likely that as many as 5 of my friends would still be 
alive.? Three of them simply put themselves in such a bad position that they 
had no chance.
?
When thinking about airbags, the Cirrus has multiple bags and inflators on the 
shoulder harnesses to protect the chest, neck and head area of the 
pilot/passenger.? I've never heard any studies of the impact results, but it is 
an interesting concept and is something now available for Experimental 
Aircraft.? Of course the downside is that these things are not inexpensive and 
require periodic replacement.
?
-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM
?
?

Sent:?Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 8:22 PM
From:?"Mark Langford via KRnet" 
To:?KRnet 
Cc:?"Mark Langford" 
Subject:?KR> parachutes
Regarding parachutes, it's worth mentioning that there's never been an
inflight structural failure of a KR (the all-composite one at high speed
at the Gathering doesn't count, in my mind), although there is a
question of elevator bellcrank failure in one plane, but it's possible
it was crash induced. There may be others, but no spar or fuselage
failure that I know of.

So given that record and the many thousands of KR hours logged, what are
the chances that you're going to have to go down somewhere so
inhospitable that you can do some semblance of a landing somewhere?
Even if it's in the tree tops, you'll likely survive it. So assuming
you are still in control of a plane that's capable of gliding, I'd just
stall it in the tree tops somewhere. John Schaffer did that in a flat
spin from 8000', and survived.

And how much time do you spend over that kind of terrain in Missouri
anyway? Your chances are looking better already! Jeff Scott probably
doesn't like what he sees out the window 75% of the time, but he doesn't
wear a parachute.

Jumping out of a spinning or otherwise disabled plane is not without its
risks as well...perhaps higher than sticking with the plane to put it on
the ground somewhere. You could get whacked in the head by the
horizontal stabilizer, or your parachute might be a streamer, etc. And
what if your plane crashes into a house and kills a family eating lunch?
That'd be bad.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you are so concerned about a
structural or control failure, you should probably start thinking twin
engines and lot of other redundancy. Statistics are on your side
though...if your plane goes down, it'll likely be a fuel problem or a
broken crankshaft, and then you simply land in a field or on a road. At
least that way you still have a plane that you can rebuild or scavenge
for parts, or just maybe, it won't have a scratch on it! No need to
carry 20 pounds around for years expecting it to pay off someday, when
it likely won't.

I have about 1400 hours of KR time, and I've had plenty of engine
problems, and zero structural problems. With the plane 20 pounds
lighter, and the comfort of not being packed into my seat with a
parachute, I've had some pretty smooth and enjoyable flying so far.

And yes, I do know that the second engine is just there to get you to
the scene of the crash...

--
Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com


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KR> parachutes

[Randall Smith]

I have a 310 which is a twin and I can tell you single engine one engine 
feathered I can cruise at 140 mile an hour full gross below 9000 feet. One of 
the reasons I bought the airplane. I loved my KR I was one of those people that 
had a large number of engine failures. Every time I made an airport or a past. 
I fly west a lot and know that there are a few places you cannot land. There's 
always a road a mountaintop clearing somewhere that you can get into if you 
just pay attention to what you're doing. I believe Mark is proven that too.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 11, 2016, at 9:51 AM, n357cj via KRnet  wrote:
> 
> Hey Guys,
> It just so happens that while going through paper work that I have acquired 
> over the past 20 years now I discovered a design for the KR2 ballistic chute  
> installation. I will send it to Mark L to post where he thinks it fits in his 
> glossary of KR stuff.
>   Jeff ... on a personnel note I am very sorry for all your losses. Those are 
> though things to grasp and understand to those left standing.
> Joe Horton
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jeff Scott via KRnet" 
> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> Cc: "Jeff Scott" 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:33:18 AM
> Subject: Re: KR> parachutes
> 
> If one is giving serious thought to always flying with a parachute, I would 
> recommend giving serious consideration to engineering in a BRS system from 
> the beginning. In a KR, I would think that would mean extending the engine 
> mount and cowl in order to accommodate the additional weight of the BRS 
> system under the turtle deck.
>  
> Look at the number of "saves" claimed by Cirrus.  A big part of buying a 
> Cirrus Aircraft is doing the Cirrus Pilot Training, which is quite heavy on 
> training for "when to pull the handle", 'cause "If you haven't planned for 
> it, and haven't trained for it, you won't do it." 
>  
> In the last 8 years, I have had 8 friends perish in aircraft crashes.  That 
> is a pretty significant number.  Of those, had the pilot been wearing a 
> chute, one of them likely would have been able to exit the aircraft and would 
> have survived.  Had their aircraft all been equipped with a BRS system and 
> the pilot willing to use it, it is likely that as many as 5 of my friends 
> would still be alive.  Three of them simply put themselves in such a bad 
> position that they had no chance.
>  
> When thinking about airbags, the Cirrus has multiple bags and inflators on 
> the shoulder harnesses to protect the chest, neck and head area of the 
> pilot/passenger.  I've never heard any studies of the impact results, but it 
> is an interesting concept and is something now available for Experimental 
> Aircraft.  Of course the downside is that these things are not inexpensive 
> and require periodic replacement.
>  
> -Jeff Scott
> Los Alamos, NM
>  
>  
> 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 8:22 PM
> From: "Mark Langford via KRnet" 
> To: KRnet 
> Cc: "Mark Langford" 
> Subject: KR> parachutes
> Regarding parachutes, it's worth mentioning that there's never been an
> inflight structural failure of a KR (the all-composite one at high speed
> at the Gathering doesn't count, in my mind), although there is a
> question of elevator bellcrank failure in one plane, but it's possible
> it was crash induced. There may be others, but no spar or fuselage
> failure that I know of.
> 
> So given that record and the many thousands of KR hours logged, what are
> the chances that you're going to have to go down somewhere so
> inhospitable that you can do some semblance of a landing somewhere?
> Even if it's in the tree tops, you'll likely survive it. 
> 
> And yes, I do know that the second engine is just there to get you to
> the scene of the crash...
> 
> --
> Mark Langford
> M
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options

KR> Parachutes

[Randall Smith]

If i remember right there has only been 2 death when the chute had been 
deployed. The problem cirrus had in the beginning was nobody would pull the 
chute because it totaled the plane. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 11, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Dan Branstrom via KRnet  list.krnet.org> wrote:
> 
> Some considerations:
> First, I'm not a big fan of Cirrus' system on its planes. Why? First, let me 
> point out that the descent rate on a Cirrus under a canopy is more than a 
> (What is now called) Cessna TTx in a glide. It is for good reason that the 
> Cirrus has seats that are designed to cushion a high vertical G load in a 
> crash or parachute deployment. A KR has no such cushion or crush area under 
> the pilot.
> 
> Generally, it is the vertical component of a crash that is a high factor in 
> survivability when crashing on a relatively smooth surface. Ya go straight 
> in, you're gonna die. If you don't have a crush area under you, you may end 
> up a lot shorter.
> 
> Next, the Cirrus has a definite deployment envelope. There have been several 
> crashes, if I recall correctly, where the airplane was found in one spot and 
> the chute in another because, obviously, the chute was deployed at high speed 
> and simply ripped away from the fuselage. There have also been crashes where 
> someone deployed the chute too close to the ground, perhaps to stop a pattern 
> altitude stall/spin event.
> 
> I think it's good that Cirrus has apparently started training for deployment 
> of the chute, because the fatality rate for Cirrus was actually higher than 
> for comparable aircraft. Perhaps it was a psychological over-dependence on 
> the chute or a misunderstanding of the deployment envelope. The Cirrus is a 
> slick airplane, and it is easy to exceed the deployment speed with the nose 
> pointed down.
> 
> Another thing to consider when wearing a chute is the ability to get out of 
> the plane.  Will your canopy open enough to get out? It is for good reason 
> that aerobatic planes usually have a way of ridding the canopy so that the 
> person can leave the plane. In the service, we didn't have ejection seats, 
> (that tells you how long ago it was) but we did have the ability to blow the 
> canopy open. I knew one guy that had a midair in the pattern (1200' agl, if I 
> recall) and he made it out successfully, but he acted instantly. The other 
> pilot didn't, and died.
> 
> Have you practiced getting out of your plane as quickly as possible? It's 
> easy to get tangled in seat belts and headset wires, and, in a KR, you're 
> sitting with your legs under the instrument panel. Even if you roll the plane 
> upside down to fall out, what can hang you up?
> 
> Remember that we only hear stories from survivors. The people who didn't make 
> it out, or died can't tell us how wonderful their chute was.
> 
> Dan Branstrom
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
> ___
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> options

KR> parachutes

[Chris Prata]

I believe my chute is a national 360, which I just checked weights 10.8lbs and 
is 1.75" thick.  at least thats the new specs for a 360. I can live with the 
10lbs. In the unlikely event of a fire (which is what started the discussion), 
I will get out in time, believe that.
Safety gear is a personal decision. Even if it just adds confidence, has value. 
  

KR> parachutes

[n357cj]

Hey Guys,
It just so happens that while going through paper work that I have acquired 
over the past 20 years now I discovered a design for the KR2 ballistic chute 
?installation. I will send it to Mark L to post where he thinks it fits in his 
glossary of KR stuff.
??Jeff ... on a personnel note I am very sorry for all your losses. Those are 
though things to grasp and understand to those left standing.
Joe Horton

- Original Message -
From: "Jeff Scott via KRnet" 
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Cc: "Jeff Scott" 
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2016 9:33:18 AM
Subject: Re: KR> parachutes

If one is giving serious thought to always flying with a parachute, I would 
recommend giving serious consideration to engineering in a BRS system from the 
beginning. In a KR, I would think that would mean extending the engine mount 
and cowl in order to accommodate the additional weight of the BRS system under 
the turtle deck.
?
Look at the number of "saves" claimed by Cirrus.? A big part of buying a Cirrus 
Aircraft is doing the Cirrus Pilot Training, which is quite heavy on training 
for "when to pull the handle", 'cause "If you haven't planned for it, and 
haven't trained for it, you won't do it."?
?
In the last 8 years, I have had 8 friends perish in aircraft crashes.? That is 
a pretty significant number.? Of those, had the pilot been wearing a chute, one 
of them likely would have been able to exit the aircraft and would have 
survived.? Had their aircraft all been equipped with a BRS system and the pilot 
willing to use it, it is likely that as many as 5 of my friends would still be 
alive.? Three of them simply put themselves in such a bad position that they 
had no chance.
?
When thinking about airbags, the Cirrus has multiple bags and inflators on the 
shoulder harnesses to protect the chest, neck and head area of the 
pilot/passenger.? I've never heard any studies of the impact results, but it is 
an interesting concept and is something now available for Experimental 
Aircraft.? Of course the downside is that these things are not inexpensive and 
require periodic replacement.
?
-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM
?
?

Sent:?Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 8:22 PM
From:?"Mark Langford via KRnet" 
To:?KRnet 
Cc:?"Mark Langford" 
Subject:?KR> parachutes
Regarding parachutes, it's worth mentioning that there's never been an
inflight structural failure of a KR (the all-composite one at high speed
at the Gathering doesn't count, in my mind), although there is a
question of elevator bellcrank failure in one plane, but it's possible
it was crash induced. There may be others, but no spar or fuselage
failure that I know of.

So given that record and the many thousands of KR hours logged, what are
the chances that you're going to have to go down somewhere so
inhospitable that you can do some semblance of a landing somewhere?
Even if it's in the tree tops, you'll likely survive it. 

And yes, I do know that the second engine is just there to get you to
the scene of the crash...

--
Mark Langford
M

KR> Parachutes

[Dan Branstrom]

Some considerations:
First, I'm not a big fan of Cirrus' system on its planes. Why? First, 
let me point out that the descent rate on a Cirrus under a canopy is 
more than a (What is now called) Cessna TTx in a glide. It is for good 
reason that the Cirrus has seats that are designed to cushion a high 
vertical G load in a crash or parachute deployment. A KR has no such 
cushion or crush area under the pilot.

Generally, it is the vertical component of a crash that is a high factor 
in survivability when crashing on a relatively smooth surface. Ya go 
straight in, you're gonna die. If you don't have a crush area under you, 
you may end up a lot shorter.

Next, the Cirrus has a definite deployment envelope. There have been 
several crashes, if I recall correctly, where the airplane was found in 
one spot and the chute in another because, obviously, the chute was 
deployed at high speed and simply ripped away from the fuselage. There 
have also been crashes where someone deployed the chute too close to the 
ground, perhaps to stop a pattern altitude stall/spin event.

I think it's good that Cirrus has apparently started training for 
deployment of the chute, because the fatality rate for Cirrus was 
actually higher than for comparable aircraft. Perhaps it was a 
psychological over-dependence on the chute or a misunderstanding of the 
deployment envelope. The Cirrus is a slick airplane, and it is easy to 
exceed the deployment speed with the nose pointed down.

Another thing to consider when wearing a chute is the ability to get out 
of the plane.  Will your canopy open enough to get out? It is for good 
reason that aerobatic planes usually have a way of ridding the canopy so 
that the person can leave the plane. In the service, we didn't have 
ejection seats, (that tells you how long ago it was) but we did have the 
ability to blow the canopy open. I knew one guy that had a midair in the 
pattern (1200' agl, if I recall) and he made it out successfully, but he 
acted instantly. The other pilot didn't, and died.

Have you practiced getting out of your plane as quickly as possible? 
It's easy to get tangled in seat belts and headset wires, and, in a KR, 
you're sitting with your legs under the instrument panel. Even if you 
roll the plane upside down to fall out, what can hang you up?

Remember that we only hear stories from survivors. The people who didn't 
make it out, or died can't tell us how wonderful their chute was.

Dan Branstrom

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KR> parachutes

[Nerobro]

Keep in mind the source.

But if you've got a sound airframe, with a slow stall speed, sticking
with the plane is the best idea.  You're probally better off saving
the 20lbs, and stalling slower.

If you've got a sound airframe, but a high stall speed, sticking with
the plane is asking to run into things at 60, 70, 90kts...In that
case, I want a chute.

If you're doing testing that could cause issues with airframe
integrity, I'd definitely have a chute with me.

I can't imagine relying on a chute as a safety device that require
skill to use, without ever actually using it, so doing a few jumps
sounds like a good idea to me.

As far as I can see... ~everyone~ here is right, depending on the
direction you're coming from.

-Nero

On Wed, May 11, 2016 at 8:34 AM, Larry Flesner via KRnet
 wrote:
> At 08:15 AM 5/11/2016, you wrote:
>>
>> I base that on an in-experienced jumper trying to exit an out of control
>> aircraft having used up valuable altitude even deciding to jump and falling
>> 1000 feet every 8 seconds after exit.
>> Given that and the extremely low odds that you would ever need it make it
>> a very low priority in my view.  Go with your own comfort
>> level..
>> Larry Flesner
>
> +
>
> However, a good 200 to 400 pound ejection system might change those odds.
> :-)
>
> Larry Flesner
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
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KR> parachutes

[Larry Flesner]

At 08:15 AM 5/11/2016, you wrote:
>I base that on an in-experienced jumper trying to exit an out of 
>control aircraft having used up valuable altitude even deciding to 
>jump and falling 1000 feet every 8 seconds after exit.
>Given that and the extremely low odds that you would ever need it 
>make it a very low priority in my view.  Go with your own comfort 
>level..
>Larry Flesner
+

However, a good 200 to 400 pound ejection system might change those odds. :-)

Larry Flesner 

KR> parachutes

[Chris Prata]

ONE airbag mark. I'm building a KR1. 

> To: krnet at list.krnet.org
> Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 21:26:17 -0500
> Subject: Re: KR> parachutes
> From: krnet at list.krnet.org
> CC: ml at n56ml.com
> 
> Also, you're far more likely to roll it up in a ball during a landing, 
> so why not airbags too?
> 
> Mark Langford
> ML at N56ML.com
> http://www.n56ml.com
> 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
> To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to KRnet-leave at list.krnet.org
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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> options

KR> parachutes

[Mark Langford]

Regarding parachutes, it's worth mentioning that there's never been an 
inflight structural failure of a KR (the all-composite one at high speed 
at the Gathering doesn't count, in my mind), although there is a 
question of elevator bellcrank failure in one plane, but it's possible 
it was crash induced.  There may be others, but no spar or fuselage 
failure that I know of.

So given that record and the many thousands of KR hours logged, what are 
the chances that you're going to have to go down somewhere so 
inhospitable that you can do some semblance of a landing somewhere? 
Even if it's in the tree tops, you'll likely survive it.  So assuming 
you are still in control of a plane that's capable of gliding, I'd just 
stall it in the tree tops somewhere.  John Schaffer did that in a flat 
spin from 8000', and survived.

And how much time do you spend over that kind of terrain in Missouri 
anyway?  Your chances are looking better already!  Jeff Scott probably 
doesn't like what he sees out the window 75% of the time, but he doesn't 
wear a parachute.

Jumping out of a spinning or otherwise disabled plane is not without its 
risks as well...perhaps higher than sticking with the plane to put it on 
the ground somewhere.  You could get whacked in the head by the 
horizontal stabilizer, or your parachute might be a streamer, etc.  And 
what if your plane crashes into a house and kills a family eating lunch? 
  That'd be bad.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you are so concerned about a 
structural or control failure, you should probably start thinking twin 
engines and lot of other redundancy.  Statistics are on your side 
though...if your plane goes down, it'll likely be a fuel problem or a 
broken crankshaft, and then you simply land in a field or on a road.  At 
least that way you still have a plane that you can rebuild or scavenge 
for parts, or just maybe, it won't have a scratch on it!  No need to 
carry 20 pounds around for years expecting it to pay off someday, when 
it likely won't.

I have about 1400 hours of KR time, and I've had plenty of engine 
problems, and zero structural problems.  With the plane 20 pounds 
lighter, and the comfort of not being packed into my seat with a 
parachute, I've had some pretty smooth and enjoyable flying so far.

And yes, I do know that the second engine is just there to get you to 
the scene of the crash...

-- 
Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
http://www.n56ml.com

KR> Parachutes

[Colin & Bev Rainey]

Not to talk down or belittle anyone, but read closely what the wording is: each 
occupant shall That means anyone on board pilot included. No exception is 
made to while solo, or receiving dual, or not in an approved acrobatic 
aircraft. The aircraft does not determine the requirement, the maneuver 
executed by the pilot. The parachute requirement extends to all occupants on 
board, not to all PASSENGERS.  Also, when dealing with the Regs, please be very 
careful about looking at one paragraph in a given section.  Often the 
subordinate paragraphs will refer back to the opening paragraph or even a 
preceding reg for part of its definition.  Rarely does one reg stand alone.

Colin & Beverly Rainey
Apex Lending, Inc.
407-323-6960 (p)
407-557-3260 (f)
www.eloan2004cr.com
crai...@apexlending.com

KR> Parachutes

[Colin & Bev Rainey]

I would like to try and close out this topic, simply because this thread only 
applies to those who desire to perform acrobatic maneuvers with their KRs.
(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute,
no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember)
may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds-
(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or
(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

To be clear here, a pilot is an occupant of the aircraft whether he be flying 
solo or with a passenger. Therefore, he is required to wear a parachute in 
order to comply with the requirements of Part 91.307 (c), when carrying a 
passenger who is NOT a required crewmember for the operation of that aircraft, 
ie: aircraft that requires 2 man crew ( like some versions of KingAir, or 
business jet).  Part 91.303 goes on to define aerobatic/acrobatic flight as any 
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an 
abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.  
This is a case of where one must look back to a previous part to clearly define 
just how wide or encompassing aerobatic flight can be depending on who in the 
FAA you talk to.
The exemptions only apply to flight instruction given by a CFI or ATP, WHERE 
that flight instruction is necessary for the completion of a rating, ie: the 
spin flight, spin endorsement required to get a CFI rating.  It does not apply 
to aerobatic training in an aircraft for proficiency or some other purpose.

In closing most of our KRs cannot stay within the boundaries of the weight 
required to give maximum protection to the airframe with a passenger, so this 
should be a moot point from here on anyway.

Have fun, on the way to re-install the prop...

Colin & Beverly Rainey
Apex Lending, Inc.
407-323-6960 (p)
407-557-3260 (f)
www.eloan2004cr.com
crai...@apexlending.com

KR> Parachutes

[Bubba]

Mark Langford wrote:
>
> Absolutely.  And not only that, but structural failures are
> incredibly rare in aircraft in general, KRs in particular.  Only in
> these rare cases will a parachute help, and as Bob says, there's no
> guarantee then.  Far more likely is fuel starvation, or an engine
> problem of some sort, like carb ice, ignition, valve train, or crank
> problems.  In these cases, I'd try to put it on the ground if at all
> possible.  I agree that if you're feeling that unlucky, or live in an
> area with particularly unfriendly terrain, go for a ballistic chute.
> I think there's probably a good reason why you rarely see a pilot get
> into a perfectly good airplane wearing a parachute...

I'd still rather get out of a perfectly good airplane wearing a chute than 
get out of a borked airplane without one ;)

(borked= typo that wound up sounding funny and suitable, so it is no longer 
a typo)

The way I see it, $500 for a used chute and another $40 for a repack and 
inspection is cheap compared to not getting to fly, see my family, make fun 
of people stuck in Pipers, etc. I'm planning on flying aerobatics (NOT in 
the KR!!!) in the near future, too, and I'll have to have a chute for that 
anyway.
-- 
Steve
N205FT
mystic...@swbell.net
He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.

KR> Parachutes

[Bubba]

Call me paranoid, but I'm thinking it's a good idea to wear a chute while 
flying my project, and not just during the 40 hours. So now I'm stuck with a 
bit of a situation. I need a chute to design the seat, but if I buy a chute 
now I have to pay to get it repacked every 4 months even though I'm not 
using it. But then I could just not get it repacked until a few weeks before 
the first flight. Anyway, does anyone have any recommendations on where to 
get a chute? Needs to be on my back, not a seat or chair pack, and $1500 for 
a National is right out.
--
Steve
N205FT
mystic...@swbell.net
He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.

KR> Parachutes

[Jürgen Thiesen]

Hi Steve,
I also design the seat for a parachute. I go the way, that I will get a chute 
from the glider scene (long body). The long body chutes saves the uppolstery 
of the seat. For first overview look at aircraftspruce... in the catalog are 
the dimentions and the weight.
with best regards
Juergen

Am Dienstag, 8. Februar 2005 14:18 schrieb Bubba:
> Call me paranoid, but I'm thinking it's a good idea to wear a chute while
> flying my project, and not just during the 40 hours. So now I'm stuck with
> a bit of a situation. I need a chute to design the seat, but if I buy a
> chute now I have to pay to get it repacked every 4 months even though I'm
> not using it. But then I could just not get it repacked until a few weeks
> before the first flight. Anyway, does anyone have any recommendations on
> where to get a chute? Needs to be on my back, not a seat or chair pack, and
> $1500 for a National is right out.
> --
> Steve
> N205FT
> mystic...@swbell.net
> He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Parachutes

[Jim Sellars]

Steve:\
Practically speaking if the thing won't work you don't need it.  If you 
have ever sat in a KR2 you would know that getting out with the wind forces 
and all that would make it almost impossible to egress unless you made the 
canopy an emergency release.  On the other hand simply doing a forced 
landing in a field or what ever you can find is the next best option, if you 
are concerned ware a helmet, and stay in glide distance of the field until 
you're sure the plane can fly where you want to go.
From experience
Jim
- Original Message - 
From: "Bubba" <mystic...@swbell.net>
To: "KRNet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:18 AM
Subject: KR> Parachutes


> Call me paranoid, but I'm thinking it's a good idea to wear a chute while
> flying my project, and not just during the 40 hours. So now I'm stuck with 
> a
> bit of a situation. I need a chute to design the seat, but if I buy a 
> chute
> now I have to pay to get it repacked every 4 months even though I'm not
> using it. But then I could just not get it repacked until a few weeks 
> before
> the first flight. Anyway, does anyone have any recommendations on where to
> get a chute? Needs to be on my back, not a seat or chair pack, and $1500 
> for
> a National is right out.
> --
> Steve
> N205FT
> mystic...@swbell.net
> He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> parachutes

[patric...@usfamily.net]

   I was certified as a chute packer while in the Air Force Reserves. It is not 
difficult to do and I would think that if you joined a local sky divers club 
you could learn and get yourself certified to pack your own chute and you could 
also get in a few jumps to know what to do if you ever needed to do it. I also 
do not think you could get out of a KR2 in an emergency. I often wondered why 
one has to wear a chute to do acrobatics in a Citabria when you can't get out 
of an aircraft like that either.
Pat Driscoll
Saint Paul, MN 55102
patric...@usfamily.net


--- http://USFamily.Net/dialup.html - $8.25/mo! -- 
http://www.usfamily.net/dsl.html - $19.99/mo! ---

KR> Parachutes

[gleone]

 The parachute is an excellent idea but true, you need to do something
different with the canopy.  One way is a pull-pin release to jettison the
canopy entirely (if you're bailing, I doubt it matters what happens to the
thing).  In my bird, I am installing a sliding canopy which will allow me to
simply step out.  A third, albeit an expensive and relatively heavy option,
is a ballistic chute.  But at a minimum,  a thin, backpack chute is very
inexpensive life insurance.

Gene Leone,
Worland, Wyoming

"Michael Moore is living proof to never trust anyone who is bigger around
than tall!"
---Original Message---

From: Jim Sellars
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: 02/08/05 07:57:28
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> Parachutes

Steve:\
Practically speaking if the thing won't work you don't need it. If you
have ever sat in a KR2 you would know that getting out with the wind forces
and all that would make it almost impossible to egress unless you made the
canopy an emergency release. On the other hand simply doing a forced
landing in a field or what ever you can find is the next best option, if you
are concerned ware a helmet, and stay in glide distance of the field until
you're sure the plane can fly where you want to go.
>From experience
Jim
- Original Message -
From: "Bubba" <mystic...@swbell.net>
To: "KRNet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 9:18 AM
Subject: KR> Parachutes


> Call me paranoid, but I'm thinking it's a good idea to wear a chute while
> flying my project, and not just during the 40 hours. So now I'm stuck with
> a
> bit of a situation. I need a chute to design the seat, but if I buy a
> chute
> now I have to pay to get it repacked every 4 months even though I'm not
> using it. But then I could just not get it repacked until a few weeks
> before
> the first flight. Anyway, does anyone have any recommendations on where to
> get a chute? Needs to be on my back, not a seat or chair pack, and $1500
> for
> a National is right out.
> --
> Steve
> N205FT
> mystic...@swbell.net
> He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
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please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> Parachutes

[Bubba]

Jim Sellars wrote:
> Steve:\
>Practically speaking if the thing won't work you don't need it.
> If you have ever sat in a KR2 you would know that getting out with
> the wind forces and all that would make it almost impossible to
> egress unless you made the canopy an emergency release.  On the other
> hand simply doing a forced landing in a field or what ever you can
> find is the next best option, if you are concerned ware a helmet, and
> stay in glide distance of the field until you're sure the plane can
>fly where you want to go. From experience

If I'm getting out of the airplane it's not going to be in a stable glide. 
It'll likely have a major structural failure and once it starts moving any 
direction other than forward popping the canopy latches will probably result 
in the canopy being ripped off it's mounts and then I'm out of there. Epoxy 
cures faster than bones heal ;)

I need to find a helmet, too. I have 4 sitting around, but they're not 
suitable (full face motorcycle helments). One of these days I'll find a deal 
on a military helmet. If I stick that turbo I was eyeing in there I could 
use the matching O2 mask, too :)
-- 
Steve
N205FT
mystic...@swbell.net
He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.

KR> parachutes

[Bubba]

patric...@usfamily.net wrote:
>   I was certified as a chute packer while in the Air Force Reserves.
> It is not difficult to do and I would think that if you joined a
> local sky divers club you could learn and get yourself certified to
> pack your own chute and you could also get in a few jumps to know
> what to do if you ever needed to do it.

I was thinking about that, actually. Would be nice to test the chute I'm 
wearing in the real world, but I don't know what they'd say about that.

> I also do not think you could
> get out of a KR2 in an emergency. I often wondered why one has to
> wear a chute to do acrobatics in a Citabria when you can't get out of
> an aircraft like that either. Pat Driscoll

My dad was a Cessna test pilot years ago and told me about the door jettison 
handles that were installed. I think they were basically just a handle 
attached to the door hinge pin. Once there's a hole to go through it's not 
tough to get out of an airplane. The hard part is making that hole ;)
-- 
Steve
N205FT
mystic...@swbell.net
He who seeks will find, and he who knocks will be let in.

KR> Parachutes

[robert glidden]

If your KR is as fast as most being built,if you have a failure bad enought
to need a personal chute it is going to happen so fast that the chute is
going to just be extra padding for when you hit the ground.If you are that
uncomfortable with your ability to build a good flying airplane then put a
recovery chute on the aircraft itself.At the speeds you will be going by the
time it happens and you think about jumping it will probly be to late unless
you are going to make yours a low and slow airplane.just a thoughtBob





> >
> >
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
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> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> Parachutes

[Mark Langford]

Bob Glidden wrote:

> At the speeds you will be going by the
> time it happens and you think about jumping it will probly be to late
unless
> you are going to make yours a low and slow airplane.just a thought...

Absolutely.  And not only that, but structural failures are incredibly rare
in aircraft in general, KRs in particular.  Only in these rare cases will a
parachute help, and as Bob says, there's no guarantee then.  Far more likely
is fuel starvation, or an engine problem of some sort, like carb ice,
ignition, valve train, or crank problems.  In these cases, I'd try to put it
on the ground if at all possible.  I agree that if you're feeling that
unlucky, or live in an area with particularly unfriendly terrain, go for a
ballistic chute.  I think there's probably a good reason why you rarely see
a pilot get into a perfectly good airplane wearing a parachute...

Mark Langford, Huntsville, Alabama
see KR2S project N56ML at http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford
email to N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
--