Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Olivier Hallot]

Hello Leandro, Hello everybody

Some comments on this thread:


Em 30/08/2017 07:51, Leandro Regueiro escreveu:
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Sveinn í Felli  wrote:
>> Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 09:14, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:
>>>
>>> So, these changes will make 100+ l10n teams to re-translate/check those
>>> touched strings, yes?
>>
>>
>> Well, these have been brewing for some time; think we have to live with
>> that. But of course we should make noise if there is a bunch of such
>> 'cosmetic' modifications, all at once.
>> Meanwhile, we could think seriously about why the help/docs markup is so
>> complex (instead of being more CSS-like?) and why there's so little
>> separation of content and formatting - and what can be done???



Given the complexity of the XML, it may be that the original developers
thought on using the XML contents in other kind of usage than simple
display. Other times, other visions. The reality is that this XML is
actually used only to display information.

My last blog post (*) was challenging the continuation of this XML.
AFAIK, except for one or 2 tags, HTML5 (or markdown) can replace this
XML and open the LibreOffice help content edition and update to mankind.

However, migrating XML to HTML (or markdown) is the easiest part of the
job. Dealing with the translation process is the hard part because it
involves the update of the  tools that builds the po files as well as a
possible (perhaps not probable) stress on the translators to deal with
the change.


> 
> I would also add why strings have so many tags when the only
> translatable content is outside of the tags or in a single place in
> the string, like:
> 
>  id="alt_id3147576">Icon
> 
> We have tons of strings like this where the only translatable content
> is "Icon". Luckily the translation for my language is quite similar so
> with a keystroke and two mouse clicks I can quickly translate those,
> but having to do it more than a hundred times is quite annoying since
> all these could be just simplified to something like:
> 
> Icon
> 
> Or even better just:
> 
> Icon

That particular case is one of the mistakes that never get fixed. The
word Icon is inside an  tag, and should describe the meaning of the
icon when the image is not loaded (and this is part of the accessibility
specs). Someone got lazy when the image was inserted in the help file
long time ago

> 
> Even if it is a massive effort and having in mind that it will require
> retranslating thousands of strings I fully support simplifying the
> strings using placeholders and removing any styling from the string if
> possible. This should:
> 
> - reduce the number of strings,
> - shorten the strings thus,
>   - making it easier to translate,
>   - making it faster to translate,
> - reduce the possibility of typing mistakes,
> - allow to increase use of translation memory.
> 
> IMHO these are big upsides making it worth the change.
> 

For me, the worst case is the  @#$%$#@ to
separate MAC from WIN and UNIX. It can be replaced by proper wording in
the sentence.

But re-translation is out of question. Current translations are an asset
of the L10N community and the LibreOffice software. Massive changes must
go invisible.

Besides, I also noticed the new Help pages and UI changes adds thousands
of words or reviews each 6 months, so a delicate balance between
evolution and translation is key for our L10N community, otherwise we
begin to see gaps in the translations (and thus loss of this "asset").

That is not to discard changes in the current markup. My last blog post
was an invitation to smoothly move away from XML to a more accessible
editing markup such as HTML5. By opening help edition to more
individuals, we can vastly improve its contents and quality.

Whatever is the solution to address our current issues, it has to be
smooth and bear the L10N community constraints.


As a side note, the XML is fully described in (**). It may help one to
understand the tags we see in Pootle.

Kind regards
Olivier


(*)
https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2017/07/19/taming-libreoffice-help-system/

(**)
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Understanding,_Authoring_and_Editing_Openoffice.org_Help/3


> 
> Regards
> 
> 
>> Best regards,
>> Sveinn
>>
>>
>>> 30. avg. 2017 10:30 AM je oseba "Sveinn í Felli" 
>>> napisala:
>>>
 The AND-, OR-, XOR-operators are only a handful, anyways I translated
 mine
 capitalized as they should have been.
 But many strings already became (unnecessarily) fuzzy:

 Choose >>> select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME - PreferencesTools
 - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Print.

 has become:

 Choose >>> select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME -
 PreferencesTools
 - Options - $[officename] -
 Print.

 You see that the enclosing  tag became nested for each string
 snippet. These are symptoms of a new editor or something different in how
 the markup is applied 

Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Leandro Regueiro]

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Sveinn í Felli  wrote:
> Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 09:14, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:
>>
>> So, these changes will make 100+ l10n teams to re-translate/check those
>> touched strings, yes?
>
>
> Well, these have been brewing for some time; think we have to live with
> that. But of course we should make noise if there is a bunch of such
> 'cosmetic' modifications, all at once.
> Meanwhile, we could think seriously about why the help/docs markup is so
> complex (instead of being more CSS-like?) and why there's so little
> separation of content and formatting - and what can be done???

I would also add why strings have so many tags when the only
translatable content is outside of the tags or in a single place in
the string, like:

Icon

We have tons of strings like this where the only translatable content
is "Icon". Luckily the translation for my language is quite similar so
with a keystroke and two mouse clicks I can quickly translate those,
but having to do it more than a hundred times is quite annoying since
all these could be just simplified to something like:

Icon

Or even better just:

Icon

Even if it is a massive effort and having in mind that it will require
retranslating thousands of strings I fully support simplifying the
strings using placeholders and removing any styling from the string if
possible. This should:

- reduce the number of strings,
- shorten the strings thus,
  - making it easier to translate,
  - making it faster to translate,
- reduce the possibility of typing mistakes,
- allow to increase use of translation memory.

IMHO these are big upsides making it worth the change.


Regards


> Best regards,
> Sveinn
>
>
>> 30. avg. 2017 10:30 AM je oseba "Sveinn í Felli" 
>> napisala:
>>
>>> The AND-, OR-, XOR-operators are only a handful, anyways I translated
>>> mine
>>> capitalized as they should have been.
>>> But many strings already became (unnecessarily) fuzzy:
>>>
>>> Choose >> select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME - PreferencesTools
>>> - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Print.
>>>
>>> has become:
>>>
>>> Choose >> select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME -
>>> PreferencesTools
>>> - Options - $[officename] -
>>> Print.
>>>
>>> You see that the enclosing  tag became nested for each string
>>> snippet. These are symptoms of a new editor or something different in how
>>> the markup is applied - and a very unfriendly burden on
>>> translators/proofreaders. The latter is also bloating the codebase.
>>> But are these things avoidable?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Sveinn
>>>
>>> Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 07:18, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:
>>>
 Will this patch render all these string as fuzzy for l10n teams?
 Lp, m.

 30. avg. 2017 01:11 je oseba "Adolfo Jayme Barrientos" <
 f...@libreoffice.org>
 napisala:

 … and the fix is now merged for 6.0:
>
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=
> ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456
>
> Thanks, Sveinn and Olivier!
>
> Adolfo
>
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>
>

>>>
>>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Sveinn í Felli]

Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 09:14, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:

So, these changes will make 100+ l10n teams to re-translate/check those
touched strings, yes?


Well, these have been brewing for some time; think we have to live with 
that. But of course we should make noise if there is a bunch of such 
'cosmetic' modifications, all at once.
Meanwhile, we could think seriously about why the help/docs markup is so 
complex (instead of being more CSS-like?) and why there's so little 
separation of content and formatting - and what can be done???


Best regards,
Sveinn


30. avg. 2017 10:30 AM je oseba "Sveinn í Felli"  napisala:


The AND-, OR-, XOR-operators are only a handful, anyways I translated mine
capitalized as they should have been.
But many strings already became (unnecessarily) fuzzy:

Choose %PRODUCTNAME - PreferencesTools
- Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Print.

has become:

Choose %PRODUCTNAME - 
PreferencesTools
- Options - $[officename] -
Print.

You see that the enclosing  tag became nested for each string
snippet. These are symptoms of a new editor or something different in how
the markup is applied - and a very unfriendly burden on
translators/proofreaders. The latter is also bloating the codebase.
But are these things avoidable?

Best regards,
Sveinn

Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 07:18, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:


Will this patch render all these string as fuzzy for l10n teams?
Lp, m.

30. avg. 2017 01:11 je oseba "Adolfo Jayme Barrientos" <
f...@libreoffice.org>
napisala:

… and the fix is now merged for 6.0:

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=
ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456

Thanks, Sveinn and Olivier!

Adolfo

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Martin Srebotnjak]

So, these changes will make 100+ l10n teams to re-translate/check those
touched strings, yes?
Lp, m.

30. avg. 2017 10:30 AM je oseba "Sveinn í Felli"  napisala:

> The AND-, OR-, XOR-operators are only a handful, anyways I translated mine
> capitalized as they should have been.
> But many strings already became (unnecessarily) fuzzy:
>
> Choose  select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME - PreferencesTools
> - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Print.
>
> has become:
>
> Choose  select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME - 
> PreferencesTools
> - Options - $[officename] -
> Print.
>
> You see that the enclosing  tag became nested for each string
> snippet. These are symptoms of a new editor or something different in how
> the markup is applied - and a very unfriendly burden on
> translators/proofreaders. The latter is also bloating the codebase.
> But are these things avoidable?
>
> Best regards,
> Sveinn
>
> Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 07:18, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:
>
>> Will this patch render all these string as fuzzy for l10n teams?
>> Lp, m.
>>
>> 30. avg. 2017 01:11 je oseba "Adolfo Jayme Barrientos" <
>> f...@libreoffice.org>
>> napisala:
>>
>> … and the fix is now merged for 6.0:
>>> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=
>>> ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456
>>>
>>> Thanks, Sveinn and Olivier!
>>>
>>> Adolfo
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
>>> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
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>>> deleted
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Sveinn í Felli]

The AND-, OR-, XOR-operators are only a handful, anyways I translated 
mine capitalized as they should have been.

But many strings already became (unnecessarily) fuzzy:

Choose select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME - PreferencesTools 
- Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Print.


has become:

Choose select="MAC">%PRODUCTNAME - 
PreferencesTools - 
Options - $[officename] - 
Print.


You see that the enclosing  tag became nested for each string 
snippet. These are symptoms of a new editor or something different in 
how the markup is applied - and a very unfriendly burden on 
translators/proofreaders. The latter is also bloating the codebase.

But are these things avoidable?

Best regards,
Sveinn

Þann mið 30.ágú 2017 07:18, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:

Will this patch render all these string as fuzzy for l10n teams?
Lp, m.

30. avg. 2017 01:11 je oseba "Adolfo Jayme Barrientos" 
napisala:


… and the fix is now merged for 6.0:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=
ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456

Thanks, Sveinn and Olivier!

Adolfo

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Will this patch render all these string as fuzzy for l10n teams?
Lp, m.

30. avg. 2017 01:11 je oseba "Adolfo Jayme Barrientos" 
napisala:

> … and the fix is now merged for 6.0:
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=
> ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456
>
> Thanks, Sveinn and Olivier!
>
> Adolfo
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-
> unsubscribe/
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> deleted
>

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Sveinn í Felli]

Þann þri 29.ágú 2017 23:10, skrifaði Adolfo Jayme Barrientos:

… and the fix is now merged for 6.0:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456


Thanks to you.

I think there are also some occurrences of 'Or' instead of 'OR':



Best,
Sveinn

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

… and the fix is now merged for 6.0:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/help/commit/?id=ba1b065b296a1fce482bb3ebfa2fc8b765b45456

Thanks, Sveinn and Olivier!

Adolfo

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Olivier Hallot]

Hello Sveinn

Makes sense to have it all capitalized.
I'll patch the code
Kind regards
Olivier

Em 28/08/2017 09:09, Sveinn í Felli escreveu:
> Hi,
> 
> In LibreOffice 5.3 Help on Pootle there are several strings about
> operators, e.g.:
> 
> AND Operator [Runtime]
> 
> Xor-Operator [Runtime]
> 
> Notice that sometimes the logical operators are capitalized and
> sometimes there's a "-" for joining (which is logical for my language).
> 
> Q: Do you know if this is done on purpose, or is this worth notifying
> the docs-team?
> 
> Best regards,
> Sveinn í Felli
> 

-- 
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LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus

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[libreoffice-l10n] AND-, OR-, XOR-operators in Help

[Sveinn í Felli]

Hi,

In LibreOffice 5.3 Help on Pootle there are several strings about 
operators, e.g.:


AND Operator [Runtime]


Xor-Operator [Runtime]


Notice that sometimes the logical operators are capitalized and 
sometimes there's a "-" for joining (which is logical for my language).


Q: Do you know if this is done on purpose, or is this worth notifying 
the docs-team?


Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

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