Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
In a modern world, I think it might even be the time to do away with the locale-language connection. Even the locale data regulation span might be reduced somewhat. More, with the major culture-data-employing entities (CLDR, Google, what-have-you) all having their outlooks competitively grown by crowdsource, it's becoming progressively more inconvenient to rely on the traditional locale-based ways to do things. E.g., personally, I'm not thrilled when google constantly tries to force some off-beat -- what's worse, unmodifiable -- version of Belarusian on me if I'm accessing it from geographical location in Belarus. Topic-wise, it's not always convenient to have locale dictating some of the choices in OOO components -- what is to be gained these days from the locale's default currency (eh?) field or from locale's language field? Or one might want to prepare a paper for a journal founded on quite a different conventions for what a thousand separator is. To conclude, it's seems reasonable to expect of a person installing to know one language of choice and so to offer the choice of installation process language. It seems reasonable to expect the language of UI and help also to be a subject of preference. And that's that, really. No second-guessing anything else, please? On 03/12/2013 01:18 AM, Michael Bauer wrote: This reminds me a bit of Android actually. I use an app called custom locale to get around the frustrating force-locale issue in order to force various apps to show up in Gaelic but that aside, it has a bizarre impact on the weather app. It cause the app to fluctuare between English and Gaelic city/town names. Some days I get Glasgow, some days I get Glaschu - even though AFAIK the app hasn't been localized (just the standard weather app that comes with my ... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
2013.03.11. 0:23 keltezéssel, Christian Lohmaier írta: Hi Jelle, *, On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Jelle Mulder pjmul...@xs4all.nl wrote: [...] and probably the odd 10% of all world population that can consider themselves immigrants. I disagree here. Why do they use a OS they cannot understand in the first place? Either they already own a computer, then they should just keep using that, or they have to buy one, but then they could just buy a version in the language they understand. And if you're there to work - how are you supposed to actually do work, when you cannot understand the OS - and why let people install you software there? So to me it still is a rare corner-case. In Romania, the 1st localized windows was windows XP (and not natively localized, peoples need to install additonal language pack), and the windows xp localization is not very good (40%+ of romanina people use windows xp), the peoples don't understand, but learned the english expressions, and usually don't like the localized version, because don't understand the localized expressions (he understand the words, but can't connect the word with what is meaning). For this reason 50%+ of windows instalation is in english, and usually this peoples don't change your regional settings to romanian (this enough to switch the LO installer to romanian). And another reason why people are using English Windows, even though it does not speak English, is that in romania 50%+ (in private area 70%+) of windows installations is illegal (illegal windows = english windows), and in this case peoples disable windows update, the download source of the localizations. Oh,.. sure,.. I could plug some Linux distro on it and all my trouble would be over. However, that would exclude me from communicatng with my collegues that run all those nifty malware tools like QQ (some IM) and the like. Nor do Linux distro's support Chinese all that well for those that cannot read Chinese. It exists, but alas,.. the info is all in Chinese and not all of it is in HTML format that I might run through Google Chrome to translate it. I can't follow you on the Linux point here. If you don't understand any chinese, why install chinese linux? If you cannot read chinese, how would you write chinese? (I can only assume you mean how to install a IME to write chinese is not documented in non-chinese properly - but then again - chicken and egg problem - just install ibus with a chinese IME and you're done - the times where installing an IME was painfull are long over, thanks to all Linux-distros using UTF-8 by default now. [-..] Come on people,.. if this is the UI/UX department, this issue is right at it's place as this is UI/UX at it's purest. Sorry, but you wrote to the l10n list - at least that is what I have been replying to.. File a bug an indeed UX would be the correct place to lay out what it should offer. ciao Christian -- Ákos -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
Citēts Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com Sun, 10 Mar 2013 23:23:04 +0100: Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case. You are absolutely wrong - I can tell that from my local experience - the greatest part (eldest) of Latvians has no other language knowledge than Latvian and for some part - also Russian (other languages - marginal case). As the Windows started to speak comprehensible Latvian just recently. so, I wanted to tell that people speaking smaller languages use graphical representation of commands - just like children do - press this icon, then, from the third menu choose 7th line and you done! This, according to my experience, is User Vulgaris. Janis -- http://dict.dv.lv http://tehvi.dv.lv -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
Þann sun 10.mar 2013 22:23, skrifaði Christian Lohmaier: Hi Jelle, *, On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Jelle Mulder pjmul...@xs4all.nl wrote: [...] Well the point I'm trying to make is that the installer is completely localised. Yes, I fully understand. But while I see it is a problem for /you/, I doubt that this szenario is affecting the masses. Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case. Well, for many smaller languages there may not be any Windows UI-localisation available or just not installed; yet the locale might be correctly defined: -- UI = english (fallback language) and the LO-installer language = XX-locale (if translations exist). Also there is a question of keyboard layout. A long time ago we had an example of a french native working in Moscow with a non-cyrilic keyboard, doing work in [ukranian] and other languages (if I recall correctly), wanting to switch LibreOffice-UI according to the language she was working on at the moment. Things can be complicated. But then again: I see that having a dropdown or other selection within the installer to switch both the installer language as the default of what gets installed to the respective language only as a nice feature. And to repeat myself: ## I have no insight on hard it would be to add a button use english for the installer - but in any case: File an issue in buzilla, just discussing it here won't change anything. ## Even Linux-distro-installers like Anaconda start with a simple section; Please choose a language to use during installation, many Windows packages do too (as I recall). The Linux-installers also ask for keyboard layout. Just polite in my opinion. But I agree; this is more of a bugzilla request. The UI/UX might have an opinion on how/where to define those choices, but then maybe this is depending on which installer software is used to produce the MSI-packages? [...] and probably the odd 10% of all world population that can consider themselves immigrants. I disagree here. Why do they use a OS they cannot understand in the first place? Either they already own a computer, then they should just keep using that, or they have to buy one, but then they could just buy a version in the language they understand. The user UI-language may be in a certain language, but to install packages you'd have to drop into admin-mode, which is normally in system locale and language. Right? Best regards, Sveinn í Felli And if you're there to work - how are you supposed to actually do work, when you cannot understand the OS - and why let people install you software there? So to me it still is a rare corner-case. Oh,.. sure,.. I could plug some Linux distro on it and all my trouble would be over. However, that would exclude me from communicatng with my collegues that run all those nifty malware tools like QQ (some IM) and the like. Nor do Linux distro's support Chinese all that well for those that cannot read Chinese. It exists, but alas,.. the info is all in Chinese and not all of it is in HTML format that I might run through Google Chrome to translate it. I can't follow you on the Linux point here. If you don't understand any chinese, why install chinese linux? If you cannot read chinese, how would you write chinese? (I can only assume you mean how to install a IME to write chinese is not documented in non-chinese properly - but then again - chicken and egg problem - just install ibus with a chinese IME and you're done - the times where installing an IME was painfull are long over, thanks to all Linux-distros using UTF-8 by default now. [-..] Come on people,.. if this is the UI/UX department, this issue is right at it's place as this is UI/UX at it's purest. Sorry, but you wrote to the l10n list - at least that is what I have been replying to.. File a bug an indeed UX would be the correct place to lay out what it should offer. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
Hi, A few facts about Windows installer of LibreOffice: It is a single MSI file - on purpose. It is simpler and more useful that old solution with preinstaller, setup.exe, several transforms etc. MSI format has some limitations. It is not an executable, it is a database. Windows itself contains the installer software, which can open and install software from MSI installation databases. The UI language of the Windows installer depends on the setting of Contol Panel - Regional and Language - Format (on Windows 7). It does not depend on UI language of Windows. For example, when I have an English Windows 7 with Latvian format set up, then I will have Latvian LibreOffice installer, which installs English and Latvian LibreOffice UI. Unfortunately the same is not true for Scottish Gaelic. When I set up Scottish Gaelic format, the installer remains in English. I don't know why this happens. Maybe it is a bug in Windows itself. Or Scottish Gaelic is not as developed locale as Latvian or others. I can force Scottish Gaelic UI of the installer, msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084. But even in this case I won't have Scottish Gaelic UI automatically selected for installation. I have to use the msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084 UI_LANGS=en_GB,gd command, to install with English (Great-Britain) and Scottish Gaelic UI, of msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084 UI_LANGS=gd for Scottish Gaelic only. It is not possible to include a language selector UI in the MSI database. The language of the MSI database is determined by Windows before the first dialog comes up. We could use a setup.exe maybe. But then we would not have a single file MSI installer any more. Best regards, Andras -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
2013/3/11 Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com It is not possible to include a language selector UI in the MSI database. The language of the MSI database is determined by Windows before the first dialog comes up. We could use a setup.exe maybe. But then we would not have a single file MSI installer any more. Hi, first, I'm not a developer, so maybe I will writte something wrong. I like the idea of include a language selector UI. May be a single setup.exe can be done, with the current msi embeded in it. So, such setup only shows the UI selector, extract current msi and calls it accordint language UI selected. End, :) My 5 ct. Joan Montané -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
We can always switch to NSIS which is truly open source. Yaron Shahrabani Hebrew translator On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 11:43 PM, Joan Montané j...@montane.cat wrote: 2013/3/11 Andras Timar tima...@gmail.com It is not possible to include a language selector UI in the MSI database. The language of the MSI database is determined by Windows before the first dialog comes up. We could use a setup.exe maybe. But then we would not have a single file MSI installer any more. Hi, first, I'm not a developer, so maybe I will writte something wrong. I like the idea of include a language selector UI. May be a single setup.exe can be done, with the current msi embeded in it. So, such setup only shows the UI selector, extract current msi and calls it accordint language UI selected. End, :) My 5 ct. Joan Montané -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
This reminds me a bit of Android actually. I use an app called custom locale to get around the frustrating force-locale issue in order to force various apps to show up in Gaelic but that aside, it has a bizarre impact on the weather app. It cause the app to fluctuare between English and Gaelic city/town names. Some days I get Glasgow, some days I get Glaschu - even though AFAIK the app hasn't been localized (just the standard weather app that comes with my phone). There seems to be no pattern to it. I suspect it, as the behaviour you described, is probably dependent on more than one factor (i.e. beyond just telling the system that it's locale xx-YY). Which is part of what makes this so frustrating. There's of course also the scenario of a locale you cannot select on any OS but which has a LO localisation. Like Oromo, Kashmiri or Bodo which I cannot find in the locales on offer in Windows 7 but which have LO localizations. Michael 11/03/2013 21:37, sgrìobh Andras Timar: know why this happens. Maybe it is a bug in Windows itself. Or Scottish Gaelic is not as developed locale as Latvian or others. I can force Scottish Gaelic UI of the installer, msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084. But even in this case I won't have Scottish Gaelic UI automatically selected for installation. I have to use the msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084 UI_LANGS=en_GB,gd command, to install with English (Great-Britain) and Scottish Gaelic UI, of msiexec /i LibreOffice_4.0.1.2_Win_x86.msi TRANSFORMS=:1084 UI_LANGS=gd for Scottish Gaelic only. -- *Akerbeltz http://www.faclair.com/* Goireasan Gàidhlig air an lìon Fòn: +44-141-946 4437 Facs: +44-141-945 2701 *Tha Gàidhlig aig a' choimpiutair agad, siuthad, feuch e!* Iomadh rud eadar prògraman oifis, brabhsairean, predictive texting, geamannan is mòran a bharrachd. Tadhail oirnn aig www.iGàidhlig.net http://www.iGaidhlig.net/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Yaron Shahrabani sh.ya...@gmail.com wrote: We can always switch to NSIS which is truly open source. Yaron Shahrabani Well, I'd recommend Unicode NSIS instead of traditional NSIS. Unicode NSIS http://www.scratchpaper.com/ AbiWord switched to Unicode NSIS to allow for a greater range of language representations. It might be necessary to host a few additional PO files (then convert them to properly formatted nlf and nsh files for upstreaming) if your language is not already complete in Unicode NSIS. I would be happy to share the POT files I created manually for that purpose, which I host only for languages where they are needed. It is not a lot of strings, you've already got many of them complete as your installer appears to be derived from NSIS. http://translate.sugarlabs.org/projects/AbiWord/ cjl Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Chris Leonard cjlhomeaddr...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 5:59 PM, Yaron Shahrabani sh.ya...@gmail.com wrote: We can always switch to NSIS which is truly open source. Yaron Shahrabani Well, I'd recommend Unicode NSIS instead of traditional NSIS. Unicode NSIS http://www.scratchpaper.com/ AbiWord switched to Unicode NSIS to allow for a greater range of language representations. It might be necessary to host a few additional PO files (then convert them to properly formatted nlf and nsh files for upstreaming) if your language is not already complete in Unicode NSIS. I would be happy to share the POT files I created manually for that purpose, which I host only for languages where they are needed. It is not a lot of strings, you've already got many of them complete as your installer appears to be derived from NSIS. http://translate.sugarlabs.org/projects/AbiWord/ Wow Chris! your Pootle instance is too slow, would you consider updating the system? I was thinking about helping the Hebrew translation but it would take forever on a sluggish system... Kind regards, Yaron Shahrabani. cjl Sugar Labs Translation Team Coordinator -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Fwd: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
There's of course also the scenario of a locale you cannot select on any OS but which has a LO localisation. Like Oromo, Kashmiri or Bodo which I cannot find in the locales on offer in Windows 7 but which have LO localizations. It's a more general situation than the people here are considerating; non only for languages that unfortunately have not a localizated OS but also in sociocultural environnement (educational centers, administrative or corporative infraestructure, low educated generations...) is common you have a pc with a OS in a regional dominant language installed (spanish in Spain or latinoamerican countries, for example) but you want install LO in galician, catalan, aragonese, asturian, euskara, quechua, Sometimes you haven't privileges for personalize the OS system (public employe, student...) or you don't want go so deeply because you are not a expert. Over WS, our 90% of total users? if the common user follows the standard wizard (without realize the custom settings) he only will install de spanish UI. It's contraintuitive. It's a problem for users not well trained, and it's a frustating barrier for native lang contributors because the localizated LO is more dificult for our users. For WS all language options must be equally accesible. The OS language not implies you don't want other languages in your applications. +1 For a independent setup installer -- Antón Méixome - Galician Native Lang Coordination Galician community LibO -- Antón Méixome - Galician Native Lang Coordination Galician community LibO AOO -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Localisation gone wild
Hi Jelle, *, On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Jelle Mulder pjmul...@xs4all.nl wrote: [...] Well the point I'm trying to make is that the installer is completely localised. Yes, I fully understand. But while I see it is a problem for /you/, I doubt that this szenario is affecting the masses. Even when the language of the OS is not the target language of your application, one can assume that the person using the OS at least understands the OS language. Everything else is a corner case. But then again: I see that having a dropdown or other selection within the installer to switch both the installer language as the default of what gets installed to the respective language only as a nice feature. And to repeat myself: ## I have no insight on hard it would be to add a button use english for the installer - but in any case: File an issue in buzilla, just discussing it here won't change anything. ## [...] and probably the odd 10% of all world population that can consider themselves immigrants. I disagree here. Why do they use a OS they cannot understand in the first place? Either they already own a computer, then they should just keep using that, or they have to buy one, but then they could just buy a version in the language they understand. And if you're there to work - how are you supposed to actually do work, when you cannot understand the OS - and why let people install you software there? So to me it still is a rare corner-case. Oh,.. sure,.. I could plug some Linux distro on it and all my trouble would be over. However, that would exclude me from communicatng with my collegues that run all those nifty malware tools like QQ (some IM) and the like. Nor do Linux distro's support Chinese all that well for those that cannot read Chinese. It exists, but alas,.. the info is all in Chinese and not all of it is in HTML format that I might run through Google Chrome to translate it. I can't follow you on the Linux point here. If you don't understand any chinese, why install chinese linux? If you cannot read chinese, how would you write chinese? (I can only assume you mean how to install a IME to write chinese is not documented in non-chinese properly - but then again - chicken and egg problem - just install ibus with a chinese IME and you're done - the times where installing an IME was painfull are long over, thanks to all Linux-distros using UTF-8 by default now. [-..] Come on people,.. if this is the UI/UX department, this issue is right at it's place as this is UI/UX at it's purest. Sorry, but you wrote to the l10n list - at least that is what I have been replying to.. File a bug an indeed UX would be the correct place to lay out what it should offer. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
