Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-18 Thread Rimas Kudelis 
Hi,

2015-12-18 09:59, Jan Holesovsky wrote:
> But - what about to introduce an 'en_US' translation in the Pootle,
> where native speakers could improve the wording without changing the
> meaning?  Then once per the release cycle, these could be copied back in
> a way that it marks no translations fuzzy.

This question keeps popping up, doesn't it...

In my opinion, it's not a good idea.

First of all, I can't see how it helps in the long run: if you plan to
promote the en_US "translation" strings as source at some point, then
they will still be marked fuzzy at that given moment, and you would
still have to tackle that issue either by using some automation, or by
asking all other locales to update their translations. So, the problem
remains there, and the only change is that now you'd have to manage a
new pseudo-translation. And to write a script which promotes these
strings to the base.

On top of that (or if you don't plan to promote en-US strings as
source), I find rather awkward the idea of having "mostly proper
English, but sometimes bastardized by foreign developers" as the base
language. In my opinion, a much better idea would be to hook these
English to-be-localizers into any patch review process which involves
adding new strings. This way incorrect strings would simply not be
introduced into the application, as opposed to being introduced and then
fixed via a weird workaround.

Rimas



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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-18 Thread Jan Holesovsky 
Hi Tom,

Tom Davies píše v St 16. 12. 2015 v 19:15 +:

> It is about the Help Files.  The Documentation Team may be able to
> make some much-needed changes to the help-files.  However, it is to
> solve a problem that only exists in English.  For all other languages
> it is, beyond doubt, already corrected purely through the translation
> process.
> 
> Is there a system or tool that allows such sweeping changes without
> marking completed translations as incomplete?
> 
> I think there was some discussion about developing such a tool but i
> imagine it would be extremely difficult to make something like that.
> So i would be surprised if there is anything yet.

I don't think it is terribly difficult to create such a tool, the
problem is running it - it has to by done by an admin with the access to
Pootle, so doing it string by string for each such much needed (but for
other languages cosmetic) change would be rather sub-optimal.

But - what about to introduce an 'en_US' translation in the Pootle,
where native speakers could improve the wording without changing the
meaning?  Then once per the release cycle, these could be copied back in
a way that it marks no translations fuzzy.

[Again - this does not cover those who download the .po files from
Pootle, and then upload back; but hopefully with a proper communication,
giving them enough time to upload their work before such a change, this
could be less of a problem too?]

Does that work?

All the best,
Kendy


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-18 Thread Michael Bauer 


Sgrìobh Rimas Kudelis na leanas 18/12/2015 aig 09:19:

This question keeps popping up, doesn't it...
Every time LO (or Mozilla or whoever) decides to go "From This Kind Of 
String" to "That kind of string" leading to a collective groan.

In my opinion, it's not a good idea.
I still think that while not a heal-all, separating out the source from 
en-US is a good idea. Admittedly it would require some folk to 
cross-check changes to en-US to see if those are linguistic/content 
fixes which need to be merged into the source but there are a LOT more 
en-US speakers/developers than in many of the other l10n teams, perhaps 
with the exception of German.


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-17 Thread Sveinn í Felli 

Þann fim 17.des 2015 03:43, skrifaði Lera:

Hi,

It is a bad idea to describe the actions of the user in the Help. The Help (as
documentation) should describe only the functionality of the program, but it
is not something that the user can (should) do. Therefore, the words "you",
"your", "user" should be used with extreme caution. Almost always, the
description of the functional can be done without reference to the user. So,
"allows to" (and like this) often can be removed from a sentence.

Best regards,
Lera


There must be a guide of some sort on how to write helpfiles; a HIG it 
is called in many projects (Human Interface Guidelines).
Most HIGs I've seen, also have clauses on writing style, such as using 
neutral gender (if possible), almost a third person narrative, and "the 
computer does not talk to the user" commandment.


In the LibreOffice-design and UX groups there are drafts of our own HIGs 
[1] [2], and I recall vaguely a discussion on sticking closely to the 
Gnome HIG [3].


Maybe there are somewhere such guidelines for writing Help, but on the 
wiki I could only find mostly empty pages under the section 
HelpAuthoring [4].


Best regards,

Sveinn í Felli

[1]: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/HIG_foundations
[2]: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Principles
[3]: https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/
[4]: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/HelpAuthoring



В письме от 16 декабря 2015 19:15:44 пользователь Tom Davies написал:

Hi :)
Again i am asking for advice and suggestions.  I don't know the best
way to handle this or even if there is a real problem here or not.


It is about the Help Files.  The Documentation Team may be able to
make some much-needed changes to the help-files.  However, it is to
solve a problem that only exists in English.  For all other languages
it is, beyond doubt, already corrected purely through the translation
process.

Is there a system or tool that allows such sweeping changes without
marking completed translations as incomplete?

I think there was some discussion about developing such a tool but i
imagine it would be extremely difficult to make something like that.
So i would be surprised if there is anything yet.


The problem is that the help files often say "allows to", which is bad
grammar (at best) and may even be nonsensical or misleading in
English.  Even in English (US).  Bad grammar is often fine in emails
because we can usually be a bit forgiving and figure out what is
likely to be meant.


The 2 currently proposed ways of correcting this are;

1.  A "broad brush strokes" sweeping change to "search and replace" to
replace it with something like "allows you to", which is not a perfect
fit for all circumstances but is mostly "good enough".  It's not
always clear who "you" refers to but mostly it's fairly clear or the
ambiguity is tolerable.  There are a few cases where the sweeping
change is just as confusing or nonsensical but it hides the problem in
the majority of cases.

2.  A careful and detailed re-phrasing of each occurrence
individually.  This will take a long time and requires a lot of very
intensive work.  It's would be very similar to doing a lot of
translations - from geeky-English to English.

3.  A hybrid of the first two.  Option 1 and then followed by option
2.  This gives us a "quick fix" improvement to start with and then the
detailed corrections later.


You may have better ideas.  This may be similar to a problem you have
had to solve and you may have experience of what works best.  Please
let the documentation team know.

The additional problem is that changing the English version might well
have a negative impact on all or most of the translations.  That is
the main problem i hope we can solve without too much pain.

Many regards from
Tom :)






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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-17 Thread Jean Weber 
I'll send you a PDF. My book is more than personal opinion, being based on
research by numerous people over many years. It has been used in technical
writing courses and may still be in use, although it is out of print. --Jean

On Thursday, December 17, 2015, Lera  wrote:

> Hi Jean Weber,
>
> В письме от 17 декабря 2015 15:10:40 пользователь Jean Weber написал:
> > I disagree, and in fact I wrote a book on the topic (Is the Help
> > Helpful).
> I will read your book, if I can find it in free access. I am always happy
> to
> learn something new. But during about 20 years of developing and support of
> programs I have got a habit to believe and focus on standards rather than
> on
> personal opinion.
>
> > For Help to be helpful, it often should not be purely
> > functional but also task-oriented description of what the user can or
> > should do to achieve a goal or complete a task.
> Yes, it is normaly. But it don't contain phrases such as "you can..."  or
> "allows you to do". Writing tips in the Help is most difficult, because it
> is
> difficult to kipe a good style and show all possibilities.
>
> Best regards,
> Lera
>

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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-16 Thread Lera 
Hi,

It is a bad idea to describe the actions of the user in the Help. The Help (as 
documentation) should describe only the functionality of the program, but it 
is not something that the user can (should) do. Therefore, the words "you", 
"your", "user" should be used with extreme caution. Almost always, the 
description of the functional can be done without reference to the user. So, 
"allows to" (and like this) often can be removed from a sentence.

Best regards,
Lera

В письме от 16 декабря 2015 19:15:44 пользователь Tom Davies написал:
> Hi :)
> Again i am asking for advice and suggestions.  I don't know the best
> way to handle this or even if there is a real problem here or not.
> 
> 
> It is about the Help Files.  The Documentation Team may be able to
> make some much-needed changes to the help-files.  However, it is to
> solve a problem that only exists in English.  For all other languages
> it is, beyond doubt, already corrected purely through the translation
> process.
> 
> Is there a system or tool that allows such sweeping changes without
> marking completed translations as incomplete?
> 
> I think there was some discussion about developing such a tool but i
> imagine it would be extremely difficult to make something like that.
> So i would be surprised if there is anything yet.
> 
> 
> The problem is that the help files often say "allows to", which is bad
> grammar (at best) and may even be nonsensical or misleading in
> English.  Even in English (US).  Bad grammar is often fine in emails
> because we can usually be a bit forgiving and figure out what is
> likely to be meant.
> 
> 
> The 2 currently proposed ways of correcting this are;
> 
> 1.  A "broad brush strokes" sweeping change to "search and replace" to
> replace it with something like "allows you to", which is not a perfect
> fit for all circumstances but is mostly "good enough".  It's not
> always clear who "you" refers to but mostly it's fairly clear or the
> ambiguity is tolerable.  There are a few cases where the sweeping
> change is just as confusing or nonsensical but it hides the problem in
> the majority of cases.
> 
> 2.  A careful and detailed re-phrasing of each occurrence
> individually.  This will take a long time and requires a lot of very
> intensive work.  It's would be very similar to doing a lot of
> translations - from geeky-English to English.
> 
> 3.  A hybrid of the first two.  Option 1 and then followed by option
> 2.  This gives us a "quick fix" improvement to start with and then the
> detailed corrections later.
> 
> 
> You may have better ideas.  This may be similar to a problem you have
> had to solve and you may have experience of what works best.  Please
> let the documentation team know.
> 
> The additional problem is that changing the English version might well
> have a negative impact on all or most of the translations.  That is
> the main problem i hope we can solve without too much pain.
> 
> Many regards from
> Tom :)


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[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Help-files: Large-scale 'cosmetic' changes

2015-12-16 Thread Lera 
Hi Jean Weber,

В письме от 17 декабря 2015 15:10:40 пользователь Jean Weber написал:
> I disagree, and in fact I wrote a book on the topic (Is the Help
> Helpful). 
I will read your book, if I can find it in free access. I am always happy to 
learn something new. But during about 20 years of developing and support of 
programs I have got a habit to believe and focus on standards rather than on 
personal opinion.

> For Help to be helpful, it often should not be purely
> functional but also task-oriented description of what the user can or
> should do to achieve a goal or complete a task.
Yes, it is normaly. But it don't contain phrases such as "you can..."  or 
"allows you to do". Writing tips in the Help is most difficult, because it is 
difficult to kipe a good style and show all possibilities.

Best regards,
Lera

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