Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
I like Oliver's idea. That way, en-US can change its caps, commas, typos, formatted vs non-formatted typography on a daily basis to their heart's content without kicking the rest of the planet into the neolithic, l10n-wise. If I may point out the commercial angle on this - I charge $35 an hour for Gaelic proofreading. Perhaps it's a little cheaper for more common languages but even so, every time the developers kick 4000 (linguistically) pointless string changes at all other locales because the feeling is they're needed in en-US, that amounts to (gut estimate) 12 hours work, so multiply that by 115 locales, it's causing the rough equivalent of a $40.000 translation bill. Yes, we're translating pro bono publico but it's still a callous way of treating donated lifetime. Michael > > Lets invent a new language in the world named Liboish - LibreOffice > language - that in fact is often confused with en_US, but it is not the > same. > > I suggest to create a new entry in Pootle, named en-US so that we get a > translation from Liboish to English. Other languages translates directly > from Liboish and we are all happy not to redo our work. > > (Apologizes for the inapropriate sense of humour, but I saw this extra > work comming months ago. 99% of my 4.4 UI was rework) > > -- > Olivier Hallot -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 30/11/2014 14:11, Mihovil Stanic wrote: > > 30.11.2014. u 9:10, Andras Timar je napisao/la: Program UI isn't a typography showcase. >>> Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office >>> suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it >>> didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a >>> better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, >>> I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement >>> typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core >>> applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was >>> only a matter of time. >> Fair enough, but please invent a process that makes these cosmetical >> changes transparent for translators. People don't want to retranslate >> or review 4000 strings just because you changed apostrophes in en-US. >> Not to mention that many languages are unmaintaned in Pootle, >> >> Thanks, >> Andras >> > > I agree with Andras, Yury and other, we don't need yet another cosmetic > change which serves no purpose and only requires hours and hours of work > to get BACK to where we are now. > > First we had those UI popup changes which changed access keys from ~ to > _. Some strings also changed but most didn't have any change except > that. That dragged on for 2 or 3 major releases. > > Then in 4.4 we got some more cosmetic changes which add : on end of > strings. Hundred of strings stayed same except for that, but hey, hours > and hours of work again. > > In 4.4 I also noticed quite few strings which only change was first > capital letter on some or all words in string. I'm wondering if english > has ANY rules regarding spelling or you can just put capital letter > anywhere you want. Anyway, that was cosmetic change also, since all of > my strings stayed same. > > And now we have biggest challenge of all in front of us, let's change > thousands of string in a way noone will notice, just those lazy people > who have nothing else to do except retranslate same old string and try > to write it same as it was. That's hardly possible since we don't have > TM for new strings, only old. > > Anyway, as Andras said, do what you want, but please fix all > translations your self or do it in a way it doesn't affect hundreds of > people. > > Mihovil > Lets invent a new language in the world named Liboish - LibreOffice language - that in fact is often confused with en_US, but it is not the same. I suggest to create a new entry in Pootle, named en-US so that we get a translation from Liboish to English. Other languages translates directly from Liboish and we are all happy not to redo our work. (Apologizes for the inapropriate sense of humour, but I saw this extra work comming months ago. 99% of my 4.4 UI was rework) -- Olivier Hallot Comunidade LibreOffice http://ask.libreoffice.org/pt-br -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
30.11.2014. u 9:10, Andras Timar je napisao/la: Program UI isn't a typography showcase. Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was only a matter of time. Fair enough, but please invent a process that makes these cosmetical changes transparent for translators. People don't want to retranslate or review 4000 strings just because you changed apostrophes in en-US. Not to mention that many languages are unmaintaned in Pootle, Thanks, Andras I agree with Andras, Yury and other, we don't need yet another cosmetic change which serves no purpose and only requires hours and hours of work to get BACK to where we are now. First we had those UI popup changes which changed access keys from ~ to _. Some strings also changed but most didn't have any change except that. That dragged on for 2 or 3 major releases. Then in 4.4 we got some more cosmetic changes which add : on end of strings. Hundred of strings stayed same except for that, but hey, hours and hours of work again. In 4.4 I also noticed quite few strings which only change was first capital letter on some or all words in string. I'm wondering if english has ANY rules regarding spelling or you can just put capital letter anywhere you want. Anyway, that was cosmetic change also, since all of my strings stayed same. And now we have biggest challenge of all in front of us, let's change thousands of string in a way noone will notice, just those lazy people who have nothing else to do except retranslate same old string and try to write it same as it was. That's hardly possible since we don't have TM for new strings, only old. Anyway, as Andras said, do what you want, but please fix all translations your self or do it in a way it doesn't affect hundreds of people. Mihovil -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
On 11/30/2014 02:33 PM, Jesper Hertel wrote: Just because you do not like an idea or are afraid of its consequences there is no reason to shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent methods. That is never helpful. Oh dear. What to do then, if one doesn't like the idea and does NOT in fact have "fears", only dislike for the extra work for close to none good reason? I think sarcasm is valid here, likewise shooting down that which flies where it shouldn't. Anyway, I have suggested the *technology* of dealing with the problem generally, for ALL translations here. I have been exploiting the principle for years, back then. Yury -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
2014-11-30 13:01 GMT+01:00 Martin Srebotnjak : > Hi, Jesper, > > in LO Pootle 135 translation teams are stated. If we take out about 20 > teams with really scarce tranlations, that means 115 teams. > > 5 changed strings in English UI x 115 = 575 changed strings in > localization po files to re-translate > 115 people being affected by this change. > > Very good with that type of facts. Thank you. I wonder how many changed or new strings there were for instance from 4.3 to 4.4, for comparison? Relative numbers are always better, to put things into perspective. My guess, as I do not have the numbers and do not know how to find them, is perhaps 500 changes? Given that guess, that would be 5 changes (well, actually 12, as the 5 were only "don't") compared to 500 changes, or around 2 % of the total work. But how come we would have to retranslate? Is there really no technical way to make a change in the English string that is known to be purely a correction to the English string with no effect on the translation? That seems odd to me – but of course I accept that not everything is the way we wish and that everything takes work to make. It just seems somewhat viable to find a solution to avoid disturbing 115 people whenever a typo is found in the English strings. It must have happened several times before. > I am not aggressive and do not fight, > Well, I disagree on that. You said: "a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named PureOffice". I might have misunderstood, but I took that as sarcasm, and I see sarcasm (as opposed to irony) as aggression or hurtful emotional violence, in an attempt to redicule the other party. It is very possible to state one's opinions without resorting to that. > just state my views, which is the corner stone of democracy and > open-source mantra, I guess. > I absolutely agree! I have never said and never believed that one's views should not be stated – on the contrary! What I was talking about is the way they are stated. I believe they should be stated simply as views, but without putting other people down because they have differing views (as politicians so often do, which is why we are all tired of them). It is never necessary to put other people down because of their views. Just state your own view without putting other views down. That is what I am saying. > And it is my deep conviction that sarcasm should not be banned, > Well, we disagree on that. As I said, I see it as a form of emotional violence (as opposed to irony), and I really don't like that. I believe it is counter-productive and harmful. Maybe it shouldn't be directly banned, but I do believe it should be very minimized when speaking in a large forum like this. Just like other offensive ways of speaking are not welcome (like "f... you, you little s...!" :-)). > it is not illegal > I never said it was illegal, and I know of no countries where it is. > and it sometimes does put problems into perspective in a very direct and > fast way - so it can be quite useful. > Oh definitely, yes, and the same can be said about other types of violence (as I still believe it is): Definitely useful and powerful for the one using it, but also definitely hurtful for the victim. And I do not find personal usefulness with disregard to the victim to be a sufficient reason to actually use it. I do believe in staying with rationality and respect. I simply don't believe in violence, neither physical nor emotional (except perhaps for extreme and very rare cases for immediate defence against aggression). But, as I said, I believe very much in stating one's opinions and that all opinions are welcome. But respecting other's opinions without putting them down is an integral part of that, and sarcasm and other forms of emotional violence do have the effect of suppressing other people's views, as they become afraid of stating their opinion if it can result in emotional violence against them. That is exactly what is used by the leaders of oppressive political systems: They use physical and emotional violence to suppress people from expressing their views. For those leaders, it is very efficient, as you said, but for democracy and openness I really cannot see how it is helpful. Or did you mean that sarcasm is good both for the one using it and for the target? That the target will also find it is a good and constructive way of communicating? Do you think the use of sarcasm increases or lowers the aggression or amount of stress in the target? > > Lp, m. > > Best regards, Jesper -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
Hi, Jesper, in LO Pootle 135 translation teams are stated. If we take out about 20 teams with really scarce tranlations, that means 115 teams. 5 changed strings in English UI x 115 = 575 changed strings in localization po files to re-translate 115 people being affected by this change. I am not aggressive and do not fight, just state my views, which is the corner stone of democracy and open-source mantra, I guess. And it is my deep conviction that sarcasm should not be banned, it is not illegal and it sometimes does put problems into perspective in a very direct and fast way - so it can be quite useful. Lp, m. 2014-11-30 12:33 GMT+01:00 Jesper Hertel : > Please, guys, those of you who want to fight, could you please step > outside and do that, so the rest of us can work? > > Just because you do not like an idea or are afraid of its consequences > there is no reason to shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent methods. > That is never helpful. > > If you have fears, which I see you all have, and for very good reasons, > simply state the fears. Then we can talk about them in a rational manner > and try to find a good, balanced and viable solution. Don't let the fears > turn into aggression. > > And if you can, supply exact numbers and sources to help show how big a > potential problem it is. > > Best regards, > Jesper > > > 2014-11-30 10:40 GMT+01:00 Martin Srebotnjak : > >> For those purposes a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named >> PureOffice. >> But there would probably be no 100 % localizations provided for it. >> >> Lp, m. >> >> 2014-11-30 8:30 GMT+01:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos : >> >> > 2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: >> > > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact >> > that >> > > there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those >> > "fancy" >> > > glyphs. >> > >> > Wrong. >> > >> > OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at >> > all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to >> > do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in >> > Windows, but bah. >> > >> > > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. >> > >> > Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office >> > suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it >> > didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a >> > better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, >> > I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement >> > typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core >> > applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was >> > only a matter of time. >> > >> > -- >> > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >> > Problems? >> > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> > Posting guidelines + more: >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ >> > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> > deleted >> > >> >> -- >> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org >> Problems? >> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ >> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ >> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be >> deleted >> > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] n’t → n't
Please, guys, those of you who want to fight, could you please step outside and do that, so the rest of us can work? Just because you do not like an idea or are afraid of its consequences there is no reason to shoot it down with sarcasm or other violent methods. That is never helpful. If you have fears, which I see you all have, and for very good reasons, simply state the fears. Then we can talk about them in a rational manner and try to find a good, balanced and viable solution. Don't let the fears turn into aggression. And if you can, supply exact numbers and sources to help show how big a potential problem it is. Best regards, Jesper 2014-11-30 10:40 GMT+01:00 Martin Srebotnjak : > For those purposes a fork of LibreOffice would be viable, named PureOffice. > But there would probably be no 100 % localizations provided for it. > > Lp, m. > > 2014-11-30 8:30 GMT+01:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos : > > > 2014-11-29 23:38 GMT-06:00 Yury Tarasievich said: > > > Said recommendations, while formaly correct, are subverted by the fact > > that > > > there are no commonly accessible methods to keyboard-input all those > > "fancy" > > > glyphs. > > > > Wrong. > > > > OS X and Linux distros include punctuation (which is not “fancy” at > > all) out-of-the-box in most keyboard layouts—the user does not have to > > do anything weird to get these working. The only OS missing the fun in > > Windows, but bah. > > > > > Program UI isn't a typography showcase. > > > > Of course it is! We’re building an office suite, remember? An office > > suite which has to do with typography a great lot. And even if it > > didn’t, it’s supposed to demostrate a level of polish and leave a > > better, lasting impression on users. They do care about these things, > > I certainly do as well. Even amateurish OS X applications implement > > typographic quotation marks. Recent versions of GNOME core > > applications also do. Windows Store apps are also in the boat. It was > > only a matter of time. > > > > -- > > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > > Problems? > > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ > > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > > deleted > > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
