Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors
One of Pootle shortcomings in my experience is lack of changes tracking. I don't see Pootle as techi tool. If you know how to log into facebook and post comment, you know how to translate on Pootle. But problem is, new people don't know what they did good and what wasn't good. For example, when you get new team member, you don't give him write permission, only permission to suggest. He makes 50 string suggestions, and I go trough all of them accepting, refusing and editing mistakes. But when I'm done, he can't possibly know what I accepted or corrected. My first translation was Mozilla Thunderbird, and my mentor was long time Firefox translator. HG was terrible, terrible tool for translating, but one of it strong points was change tracking. I learned what I did wrong and how to improve my translations from that same change tracking system. Sometime I even corrected mentor, everyone makes mistakes. :) I miss something like that in Pootle, to provide new people way to see their mistakes and improve their skills with that. Best regards, Mihovil 2.9.2014 u 10:26, Tom Davies je napisao/la: Hi :) 2 separate issues; 1. Wrt recruiting new people there is a constant source of potential new people on the various Users Support mailing lists. Most have arrived there to get answers to 1 or 2 questions and were t focused and/or confused to notice any of the other stuff that goes on, such as different mailing-lists for different teams. Often people on those mailing lists have no idea how to get involved. They are often surprised to learn that they can join other teams just as 'easily' as they joined the Users Support mailing list and that the instructions on how to do so were right at the beginning of their trek to join the Users Support mailing lists. I think mentioning, about once per month (or maybe fortnightly but not too often)) the L10n mailing list and maybe your specific language mailing lists on your User Support mailing-lists might attract some good people. 2. As far as native English speakers go, the people in their current Documentation Team's mailing list are not very technically minded and had a big struggle trying to understand how to edit wiki's. Anything more complex, even Pootle, would be a major blocker for them. They all use ODFAuthors. So, anyone new only gets help as long as they are trying to use ODFAuthors too. I try to help people understand how to do wiki-editing but i am a hugely unpopular maverick there. People generally don't join these teams to instantly find themselves embroiled in a fight = they just want to get on with doing something useful. So new people joining their team either also avoid me and wiki-editing or drop-out. The English Faq has been mostly done by Sophie and Alex (who seem to be in all teams and have tons of energy) or by people who are nothing to do with the English Docs Team. The English-speakers Documentation Team can only cope with doing the Published Guides. So, 1. I think you might be able to recruit more people from the User Support mailing lists but don't spam them with adverts and requests too much or too often! There are other places such as social media and all the usual good places to market stuff but the User Support mailing lists are an extra place that might be fruitful. 2. If you want native English speakers then you might have to think how to attract people who are not already in the English-speakers Documentation Team. Regards from Tom :) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors
Hi :) 2 separate issues; 1. Wrt recruiting new people there is a constant source of potential new people on the various Users Support mailing lists. Most have arrived there to get answers to 1 or 2 questions and were t focused and/or confused to notice any of the other stuff that goes on, such as different mailing-lists for different teams. Often people on those mailing lists have no idea how to get involved. They are often surprised to learn that they can join other teams just as 'easily' as they joined the Users Support mailing list and that the instructions on how to do so were right at the beginning of their trek to join the Users Support mailing lists. I think mentioning, about once per month (or maybe fortnightly but not too often)) the L10n mailing list and maybe your specific language mailing lists on your User Support mailing-lists might attract some good people. 2. As far as native English speakers go, the people in their current Documentation Team's mailing list are not very technically minded and had a big struggle trying to understand how to edit wiki's. Anything more complex, even Pootle, would be a major blocker for them. They all use ODFAuthors. So, anyone new only gets help as long as they are trying to use ODFAuthors too. I try to help people understand how to do wiki-editing but i am a hugely unpopular maverick there. People generally don't join these teams to instantly find themselves embroiled in a fight = they just want to get on with doing something useful. So new people joining their team either also avoid me and wiki-editing or drop-out. The English Faq has been mostly done by Sophie and Alex (who seem to be in all teams and have tons of energy) or by people who are nothing to do with the English Docs Team. The English-speakers Documentation Team can only cope with doing the Published Guides. So, 1. I think you might be able to recruit more people from the User Support mailing lists but don't spam them with adverts and requests too much or too often! There are other places such as social media and all the usual good places to market stuff but the User Support mailing lists are an extra place that might be fruitful. 2. If you want native English speakers then you might have to think how to attract people who are not already in the English-speakers Documentation Team. Regards from Tom :) On 1 September 2014 19:30, Mihovil Stanic libreoff...@miho.im wrote: Thanks for heads up, but I'm on Pootle since last Mozilla summit, so almost a year now. :) I was describing my workflow before Pootle, just to point our how easy is to translate with tool like that. Best regards, Mihovil 1.9.2014. u 20:22, Rimas Kudelis je napisao/la: not that it's very relevant here, but just to let you know, you can actually translate Firefox and Thunderbird in Pootle as well. I migrated most of my Mozilla work to Pootle just a few weeks ago. There were some migration-related bumps, but I'm gonna see how it goes from here. Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors (was: Re: Transfering HELP from AOO to LO)
Hi Nino, *, Am 28.08.2014 11:35 schrieb Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org: On 25.08.2014 19:09, Robinson Tryon wrote: wants to translate a page or correct some errors - being forced to learn pootle (or similar tools) prevents me from just starting. How is visiting a website, using search to find the string you want to change, just change it and submit for review a big learning step? How could pootle be easier to use? Pootle surely is not used when you start from scratch. For that, you would download the po files from pootle and translate offline. But similarly finding that download and upload functionality is not hard either, or is it? There needs to be some kind of back end, to allow for permissions, user groups and stuff. Therefore in my eyes, a simpler workflow could substantially improve crowd-sourcing of help file translations / corrections. Example: - present an edit or translate button on every page or even paragraph Linking that to pootle probably is not too hard, if the concept of the string ids stays the same.. With that, you would get the rest as well for free Ciao Christian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors
Pootle is very non-tech user frendly and you shouldn't have problems translating with it. You should try to translate for Mozilla via HG where workflow is something like this: - learn using HG via command line or via Tortoise HG on windows - get keys from mozilla - login with key and password - download/merge whole repository every time you want to translate - check Compare locales tool and MANUALY copy string differences from EN_US to your locale - translate - commit changes - merge changes to HG repository With Pootle, you only log in and translate. :) Best regards, Mihovil 1.9.2014 u 8:18, Christian Lohmaier je napisao/la: Hi Nino, *, Am 28.08.2014 11:35 schrieb Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org: On 25.08.2014 19:09, Robinson Tryon wrote: wants to translate a page or correct some errors - being forced to learn pootle (or similar tools) prevents me from just starting. How is visiting a website, using search to find the string you want to change, just change it and submit for review a big learning step? How could pootle be easier to use? Pootle surely is not used when you start from scratch. For that, you would download the po files from pootle and translate offline. But similarly finding that download and upload functionality is not hard either, or is it? There needs to be some kind of back end, to allow for permissions, user groups and stuff. Therefore in my eyes, a simpler workflow could substantially improve crowd-sourcing of help file translations / corrections. Example: - present an edit or translate button on every page or even paragraph Linking that to pootle probably is not too hard, if the concept of the string ids stays the same.. With that, you would get the rest as well for free Ciao Christian -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors
Thanks for heads up, but I'm on Pootle since last Mozilla summit, so almost a year now. :) I was describing my workflow before Pootle, just to point our how easy is to translate with tool like that. Best regards, Mihovil 1.9.2014. u 20:22, Rimas Kudelis je napisao/la: not that it's very relevant here, but just to let you know, you can actually translate Firefox and Thunderbird in Pootle as well. I migrated most of my Mozilla work to Pootle just a few weeks ago. There were some migration-related bumps, but I'm gonna see how it goes from here. Rimas -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors (was: Re: Transfering HELP from AOO to LO)
On 25.08.2014 19:09, Robinson Tryon wrote: What can we do to recruit more people to help with translations? For me (an occasional translator) the biggest hurdle is the technical overhead needed for some of the translations. Somebody like me, who just wants to translate a page or correct some errors - being forced to learn pootle (or similar tools) prevents me from just starting. Therefore in my eyes, a simpler workflow could substantially improve crowd-sourcing of help file translations / corrections. Example: - present an edit or translate button on every page or even paragraph (could / should? be restricted to registered users) - transmit the diff of such a user-made change to a group of reviewers with publish rights - make it easy to integrate the changes back into the original page (e.g. by buttons accept / edit / dismiss (if spam etc) - make history visible (e.g. like in Wikis) so that everybody can see, who has contributed what ... well, that's just a proposal that came into my mind while reading your question. Easy to request but heavy to implement, I suppose ;-) Nino -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors (was: Re: Transfering HELP from AOO to LO)
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 5:35 AM, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: On 25.08.2014 19:09, Robinson Tryon wrote: What can we do to recruit more people to help with translations? For me (an occasional translator) the biggest hurdle is the technical overhead needed for some of the translations. Somebody like me, who just wants to translate a page or correct some errors - being forced to learn pootle (or similar tools) prevents me from just starting. I haven't really used pootle much, but it does seem a bit quirky. There are a number of things we could do to improve translations. To hop over to another piece of infra for a moment, getting the Translations extension installed on the TDF wiki will hopefully be a good step forward: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/107 Therefore in my eyes, a simpler workflow could substantially improve crowd-sourcing of help file translations / corrections. Example: - present an edit or translate button on every page or even paragraph (could / should? be restricted to registered users) Restricting edits to logged-in users is a good approach to spam/griefers, even if the content is reviewed before inclusion. - transmit the diff of such a user-made change to a group of reviewers with publish rights - make it easy to integrate the changes back into the original page (e.g. by buttons accept / edit / dismiss (if spam etc) - make history visible (e.g. like in Wikis) so that everybody can see, who has contributed what These all seem like they could be helpful improvements to Pootle. Some of them (e.g. making history visible) seem like they might not take a ton of development work. Does the Language team chat with the Pootle developers at all? Are they receptive to suggestions/enhancement requests? ... well, that's just a proposal that came into my mind while reading your question. Easy to request but heavy to implement, I suppose ;-) Some things might take more work, such as adding in a completely new review system, but others might be more straightforward. Once the Translations extension is installed in MediaWiki, it would be great if you could give some feedback about the way that it works. I believe that it integrates a number of features you mentioned including history and a mechanism for review. I'm not suggesting that MediaWiki could replace Pootle, but perhaps one tool might help to inform and improve another. Best, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation Volunteer Coordinator - LibreOffice Community Outreach qu...@libreoffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors (was: Re: Transfering HELP from AOO to LO)
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 2:10 PM, Robinson Tryon bishop.robin...@gmail.com wrote: These all seem like they could be helpful improvements to Pootle. Some of them (e.g. making history visible) seem like they might not take a ton of development work. Does the Language team chat with the Pootle developers at all? Are they receptive to suggestions/enhancement requests? ... ... I'm not suggesting that MediaWiki could replace Pootle, but perhaps one tool might help to inform and improve another. Looks like someone has had the same idea: https://github.com/translate/pootle/issues/1549 :-) Cheers, --R -- Robinson Tryon QA Engineer - The Document Foundation Volunteer Coordinator - LibreOffice Community Outreach qu...@libreoffice.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Recruiting translators/editors
Hi all, Le 28/08/2014 20:10, Robinson Tryon a écrit : On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 5:35 AM, Nino Novak nn.l...@kflog.org wrote: On 25.08.2014 19:09, Robinson Tryon wrote: What can we do to recruit more people to help with translations? For me (an occasional translator) the biggest hurdle is the technical overhead needed for some of the translations. Somebody like me, who just wants to translate a page or correct some errors - being forced to learn pootle (or similar tools) prevents me from just starting. I haven't really used pootle much, but it does seem a bit quirky. There are a number of things we could do to improve translations. To hop over to another piece of infra for a moment, getting the Translations extension installed on the TDF wiki will hopefully be a good step forward: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/107 Moggi and Kendy are working on finding a way to correctly extract the help files to transfer them to the wiki. But that's not all, after that we need to find a workflow that do not cause more work to the l10n team and in the same time allow more English native speakers to participate to the help writing process. Therefore in my eyes, a simpler workflow could substantially improve crowd-sourcing of help file translations / corrections. Example: - present an edit or translate button on every page or even paragraph (could / should? be restricted to registered users) Restricting edits to logged-in users is a good approach to spam/griefers, even if the content is reviewed before inclusion. it's more to prevent to add more work to translators. - transmit the diff of such a user-made change to a group of reviewers with publish rights - make it easy to integrate the changes back into the original page (e.g. by buttons accept / edit / dismiss (if spam etc) - make history visible (e.g. like in Wikis) so that everybody can see, who has contributed what These all seem like they could be helpful improvements to Pootle. Some of them (e.g. making history visible) seem like they might not take a ton of development work. Does the Language team chat with the Pootle developers at all? Are they receptive to suggestions/enhancement requests? Yes, we are in contact with Dwayne, there is several enhancement that are in the pipe, like a new Pootle version, adding Deckhard, etc... ... well, that's just a proposal that came into my mind while reading your question. Easy to request but heavy to implement, I suppose ;-) Some things might take more work, such as adding in a completely new review system, but others might be more straightforward. Once the Translations extension is installed in MediaWiki, it would be great if you could give some feedback about the way that it works. I believe that it integrates a number of features you mentioned including history and a mechanism for review. I'm not suggesting that MediaWiki could replace Pootle, but perhaps one tool might help to inform and improve another. We will have a staging period once the technical issues solved, that will help to define the process between help writers and l10n team. I hope we will be able to discuss that next week. Cheers Sophie -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
