Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

Well, I'm 'out of loop' ATM, but thank you for 
your effort, the organising team, *really*. I 
understand all this's a difficult undertaking.


The problem (on which guys are commenting) is -- 
certain kinds of changes should never 
generate/cause an obligatory workload.
In your place (I know, it's easy to advise 'from 
sidelines'), I'd try to look at ways to automate 
this.


-Yury

On 16/10/17 16:05, Sophie wrote:


Did you read my mail reporting ESC minutes we had last week? Wasn't it
about scripting and the time we have to find to do it?
I'm weekly reporting l10n issues to the ESC, and if you want to join,
you are welcome too.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 16/10/17 16:00, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote:
...

Because they have a better model [...]

...

Yes.


It might be helpful to know that there are plans to build automated
Pootle pushes [2], which in turn should give us much more frequent

...

I'd say things ought to be organised so that 
changes like case changes would NEVER create an 
*obligatory* workload, but... oh, well, let's 
hope for this, at least.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sophie]

Hi Yury, all,
Le 16/10/2017 à 14:22, Yury Tarasievich a écrit :
> You are talking wisely
> 
> On 16/10/17 13:47, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote:
>> 2017-10-13 7:45 GMT-05:00 Yury Tarasievich :
>>> Seconding this. The project just throws away the l10n people
>>> man-hours (but
>>> just you try to get them dev guys to fix something in the code!).
>>
>> What are you talking about? Developers are committing many patches per
>> day, even on holidays (see e.g. our GitHub Pulse or our dashboard).
>> This is a ridiculous accusation.
> 
> No. And you are turning things upside down.
> 
> Developers do much, providing they like what they do (are about to do).
> On the other hand, the important and visible functionality may sit there
> *virtually* broken for years (like, hey, ms word import/export involving
> formulas).
> 
> Returning to question at hand: people here are expressing their
> frustration because the actual workflow model allows for cascading
> workloads for everybody with very little rationale behind.
> 
> BTW, does developer side suffer from such kind of problem? Never, I
> believe. Everything is coordinated (and rightly so!)
> 
> Also, I've translated mozilla stack in my day, and I know it allows for
> *economising* translator's effort -- much of the content is replicated.
> And I've NEVER seen a 25-30% 'update' of the kind we are talking about
> here.

Did you read my mail reporting ESC minutes we had last week? Wasn't it
about scripting and the time we have to find to do it?
I'm weekly reporting l10n issues to the ESC, and if you want to join,
you are welcome too.

Cheers
Sophie



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

2017-10-16 7:22 GMT-05:00 Yury Tarasievich :
> Also, I've translated mozilla stack in my day, and I know it allows for
> *economising* translator's effort -- much of the content is replicated. And
> I've NEVER seen a 25-30% 'update' of the kind we are talking about here.

Because they have a better model in which they update templates every
couple of days or so [1], contrary to our six-month delay where many
source code changes have time to accumulate and then get presented in
bulk to translators. This changes the perception, IMO, because in my
experience, even when there’s more material to translate at Mozilla,
it’s always more manageable…

That is something we need over here.

It might be helpful to know that there are plans to build automated
Pootle pushes [2], which in turn should give us much more frequent
updates and less overhead to worry about (assuming that implementing
it would be a huge time saver for our one overstretched sysadmin… I
might be thinking wishfully of course…)

[1] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!starred/mozilla.dev.l10n/_K2j7Sg0Orw
[2] https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/1488

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

You are talking wisely

On 16/10/17 13:47, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos wrote:

2017-10-13 7:45 GMT-05:00 Yury Tarasievich :

Seconding this. The project just throws away the l10n people man-hours (but
just you try to get them dev guys to fix something in the code!).


What are you talking about? Developers are committing many patches per
day, even on holidays (see e.g. our GitHub Pulse or our dashboard).
This is a ridiculous accusation.


No. And you are turning things upside down.

Developers do much, providing they like what 
they do (are about to do). On the other hand, 
the important and visible functionality may sit 
there *virtually* broken for years (like, hey, 
ms word import/export involving formulas).


Returning to question at hand: people here are 
expressing their frustration because the actual 
workflow model allows for cascading workloads 
for everybody with very little rationale behind.


BTW, does developer side suffer from such kind 
of problem? Never, I believe. Everything is 
coordinated (and rightly so!)


Also, I've translated mozilla stack in my day, 
and I know it allows for *economising* 
translator's effort -- much of the content is 
replicated. And I've NEVER seen a 25-30% 
'update' of the kind we are talking about here.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

A little clarification: I don’t intend to convey that your time isn’t
valued, guys and gals. And you, of course, don’t have to agree with
me. After all, this is just an idiot guy in his twenties…

2017-10-16 5:47 GMT-05:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos :
> 2017-10-13 7:45 GMT-05:00 Yury Tarasievich :
>> Seconding this. The project just throws away the l10n people man-hours (but
>> just you try to get them dev guys to fix something in the code!).
>
> What are you talking about? Developers are committing many patches per
> day, even on holidays (see e.g. our GitHub Pulse or our dashboard).
> This is a ridiculous accusation.
>
> Also, I translate for Mozilla and cosmetic changes are something that
> happens every day. Why is it so controversial here to try to fix the
> strings? It’s user experience and perception, which in my book matters
> a lot.
>
> Everyone please have this in mind: for better or worse, many of our
> developers aren’t native speakers and can’t contribute high-quality
> English strings the first time they land a patch, so we inevitably
> have to iterate. While I’m conscious that our tooling isn’t the best
> and does lead to wasted time over repetitive actions, I would—as a
> translator who contributes to Mozilla, Ubuntu, Fedora and many smaller
> projects—appreciate a little understanding that any software in
> continuous development IS BOUND TO CHANGE.
>
> Adolfo

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

2017-10-13 7:45 GMT-05:00 Yury Tarasievich :
> Seconding this. The project just throws away the l10n people man-hours (but
> just you try to get them dev guys to fix something in the code!).

What are you talking about? Developers are committing many patches per
day, even on holidays (see e.g. our GitHub Pulse or our dashboard).
This is a ridiculous accusation.

Also, I translate for Mozilla and cosmetic changes are something that
happens every day. Why is it so controversial here to try to fix the
strings? It’s user experience and perception, which in my book matters
a lot.

Everyone please have this in mind: for better or worse, many of our
developers aren’t native speakers and can’t contribute high-quality
English strings the first time they land a patch, so we inevitably
have to iterate. While I’m conscious that our tooling isn’t the best
and does lead to wasted time over repetitive actions, I would—as a
translator who contributes to Mozilla, Ubuntu, Fedora and many smaller
projects—appreciate a little understanding that any software in
continuous development IS BOUND TO CHANGE.

Adolfo

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Yury Tarasievich]

Seconding this. The project just throws away the 
l10n people man-hours (but just you try to get 
them dev guys to fix something in the code!).


That's not right, and in OSS you'd definitely 
want to pay attention to putting things right 
(the crypto-currency here!).


On 13/10/17 15:10, Michael Bauer wrote:
...

It's not funny. I don't expect paying for

...

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Re: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Michael Bauer]

I'm not sure if this is meant funny or serious. It's not funny. I don't 
expect paying for translating LO but I would consider it courteous if a 
project I'm donating *lifetime* to would not behave as if my donated 
lifetime is worth nothing.


If serious, then hooray for you, a lot of us are not getting paid for 
our time.


Michael

Sgrìobh Krunose na leanas 13/10/2017 aig 07:00:


Translating LibreOffice bought me a house.

Kruno





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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Krunose]

On 12.10.2017 10:46, Michael Bauer wrote:


Sometimes 'cosmetic' change could mean a difference. To me is 
indicative if string is 1) in all caps, if 2) first letter is 
capitalized and if 3) all letters are lowercased. 


Not a good reason Kruno. For one, not all scripts even entertain the 
idea of caps. CJK, Nagari, Amhara, Arabic-based ... non of them have 
caps. Yet somehow they manage to make their UI work.


Secondly, quite a lot of locales have strict lowercasing. Like ours. 
So caps in en-US don't make a blind bit of difference to our 
translations.


Thirdly, there is largely no rhyme, no reason, and apparently no 
season. In en-US, caps follow whatever the flavour of the month is. 
Evidence? Sure. Just as Microsoft was abandoning sentence case, 
LibreOffice went for it, or the other way round, I can't remember. 
Either way, round about the same time, their respective UI went 
*exactly* the opposite way.


If LO does not want to start treating en-US as a translatable locale, 
it really needs to introduce a new change category into Pootle of "cap 
change" which does not void existing translations but introduces a QA 
flag like "missing placeholder".


Right now, it feels like every time en-US play with their caps, they 
give 100 or so other locales the finger, as if our time didn't matter 
two hoots. And it's NOT like this is a novel issue, we've debated this 
ad nauseum and STILL you dump these on us volunteers. Do you know how 
much I'd charge for this kind of time?


Michael



Translating LibreOffice bought me a house.

Kruno

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Michael Bauer]

Sometimes 'cosmetic' change could mean a difference. To me is 
indicative if string is 1) in all caps, if 2) first letter is 
capitalized and if 3) all letters are lowercased. 


Not a good reason Kruno. For one, not all scripts even entertain the 
idea of caps. CJK, Nagari, Amhara, Arabic-based ... non of them have 
caps. Yet somehow they manage to make their UI work.


Secondly, quite a lot of locales have strict lowercasing. Like ours. So 
caps in en-US don't make a blind bit of difference to our translations.


Thirdly, there is largely no rhyme, no reason, and apparently no season. 
In en-US, caps follow whatever the flavour of the month is. Evidence? 
Sure. Just as Microsoft was abandoning sentence case, LibreOffice went 
for it, or the other way round, I can't remember. Either way, round 
about the same time, their respective UI went *exactly* the opposite way.


If LO does not want to start treating en-US as a translatable locale, it 
really needs to introduce a new change category into Pootle of "cap 
change" which does not void existing translations but introduces a QA 
flag like "missing placeholder".


Right now, it feels like every time en-US play with their caps, they 
give 100 or so other locales the finger, as if our time didn't matter 
two hoots. And it's NOT like this is a novel issue, we've debated this 
ad nauseum and STILL you dump these on us volunteers. Do you know how 
much I'd charge for this kind of time?


Michael

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi *,

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 12:38 PM, diego maniacco  wrote:
> Suggestion from Krunose looks a good compromise::
>
> "No translation should be removed. Whatever changes in original string, mark
> translation as fuzzy and leave (old) translation in there. "
>
> What about that?

that also is the case, in the from of obsolete strings, just that the
not-used strings are not exported from pootle webinterface, but only
in on-disk files. However as gettext migration changed
filenames/merged multiple ones into a messages.po, this is not true
for all files in the export - but for those cases you have the libo54
projects - that is what master was before it was updated - so no need
to worry about having lost translations or not being able to access
them.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[diego maniacco]

Suggestion from Krunose looks a good compromise::

"No translation should be removed. Whatever changes in original string, 
mark translation as fuzzy and leave (old) translation in there. "


What about that?

diego



On 09/10/17 10:13, Krunose wrote:



On 07.10.2017 10:09, Mikhail Balabanov wrote:

Hello,

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Serg Bormant  wrote:

2017-10-06 23:12 GMT+03:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 
:

2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc

What is your point?

It is very simple.
As I can see, Pootle has 135 languages now and some teams work offline.
If someone makes ONLY ONE cosmetic change in translatable strings,
everyone of 135 language teams should adopt this change.



As someone who translates practically alone for my language (mainly
stealing from my sleep), I agree that this is far from effective use of
volunteers’ often very scarce spare time. Saying ‘You’re volunteers 
so if

you don’t want to put up with , we’ll wait for someone who does’
doesn’t seem the best stance to take.

On the other hand, I’m also a stickler for correct typography, perfectly
composed layouts and such things and I think that ‘cosmetic’ changes 
often
go a long way to make a product appear much more professional and 
enjoyable

to work with.




Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
with spaces and capital letters there...

You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?

Why not? Assign any unused language code for source and "en" for
translation.



This seems like an attractive option but it has problems of its own 
(like:
when looking at the source, you will never be sure how the actual UI 
looks
like; many teams may actually want to implement some of the changes 
made to

the ‘English translation’ but they will not be notified of them and will
have to periodically search for such, etc.).

OTOH, setting that particular solution aside, I’m sure that other things
can be done to somewhat improve the situation. For example, couldn’t 
some
mechanism be implemented to explicitly mark certain changes as 
‘small’ or

‘cosmetic’ so that the translations in Pootle are just marked as ‘Needs
work’ instead of right out deleting them? Or even better, add a new 
status

specifically meaning ‘Cosmetic change’ that allows re-confirming the
existing translations en masse if the changes are irrelevant to them?


Sometimes 'cosmetic' change could mean a difference. To me is 
indicative if string is 1) in all caps, if 2) first letter is 
capitalized and if 3) all letters are lowercased.


It's hard to mark what is cosmetic change from what was badly written 
before and now is corrected. Fixing bad language in template is a must 
and should not be optional.


That 'Month' ~ 'month' example may not make difference for Cyrillic 
scripts but Latin scripts can and should change translation accordingly.


No translation should be removed. Whatever changes in original string, 
mark translation as fuzzy and leave (old) translation in there.


Maybe there are volunteers who can make a script for Cyrillic writing 
system which could read trough po files, convert strings to lowercase, 
compare that to (Cyrillic) translation and change what needed if there 
is a match. Maybe this could work for some other writing systems/scripts.


If 'cosmetic' changes need to be: better in one-word string then in 
thous wrapping in two or three lines.


Kruno





Best regards,
Mihail Balabanov






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+---
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| Tel +39 0471 566 159
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sophie]

Hi all,
Le 09/10/2017 à 10:13, Krunose a écrit :
> 
> 
> On 07.10.2017 10:09, Mikhail Balabanov wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Serg Bormant  wrote:
>>
>>> 2017-10-06 23:12 GMT+03:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos
>>> :
 2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc
 What is your point?
>>> It is very simple.
>>> As I can see, Pootle has 135 languages now and some teams work offline.
>>> If someone makes ONLY ONE cosmetic change in translatable strings,
>>> everyone of 135 language teams should adopt this change.
>>>
>>
>> As someone who translates practically alone for my language (mainly
>> stealing from my sleep), I agree that this is far from effective use of
>> volunteers’ often very scarce spare time. Saying ‘You’re volunteers so if
>> you don’t want to put up with , we’ll wait for someone who does’
>> doesn’t seem the best stance to take.
>>
>> On the other hand, I’m also a stickler for correct typography, perfectly
>> composed layouts and such things and I think that ‘cosmetic’ changes
>> often
>> go a long way to make a product appear much more professional and
>> enjoyable
>> to work with.
>>
>>
>>
> Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
> with spaces and capital letters there...
 You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?
>>> Why not? Assign any unused language code for source and "en" for
>>> translation.
>>>
>>
>> This seems like an attractive option but it has problems of its own
>> (like:
>> when looking at the source, you will never be sure how the actual UI
>> looks
>> like; many teams may actually want to implement some of the changes
>> made to
>> the ‘English translation’ but they will not be notified of them and will
>> have to periodically search for such, etc.).
>>
>> OTOH, setting that particular solution aside, I’m sure that other things
>> can be done to somewhat improve the situation. For example, couldn’t some
>> mechanism be implemented to explicitly mark certain changes as ‘small’ or
>> ‘cosmetic’ so that the translations in Pootle are just marked as ‘Needs
>> work’ instead of right out deleting them? Or even better, add a new
>> status
>> specifically meaning ‘Cosmetic change’ that allows re-confirming the
>> existing translations en masse if the changes are irrelevant to them?
> 
> Sometimes 'cosmetic' change could mean a difference. To me is indicative
> if string is 1) in all caps, if 2) first letter is capitalized and if 3)
> all letters are lowercased
> 
> It's hard to mark what is cosmetic change from what was badly written
> before and now is corrected. Fixing bad language in template is a must
> and should not be optional.
> 
> That 'Month' ~ 'month' example may not make difference for Cyrillic
> scripts but Latin scripts can and should change translation accordingly.

I agree with you that 'cosmetic' is not easy to define. And if you look
at the changes, sometimes it's a capital, sometimes a capital and a
space, sometime it's all caps, sometime a real change, so difficult to
script either or only for a handful of strings.

Cheers
Sophie

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IRC: sophi
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Krunose]

On 07.10.2017 10:09, Mikhail Balabanov wrote:

Hello,

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Serg Bormant  wrote:


2017-10-06 23:12 GMT+03:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos :

2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc

What is your point?

It is very simple.
As I can see, Pootle has 135 languages now and some teams work offline.
If someone makes ONLY ONE cosmetic change in translatable strings,
everyone of 135 language teams should adopt this change.



As someone who translates practically alone for my language (mainly
stealing from my sleep), I agree that this is far from effective use of
volunteers’ often very scarce spare time. Saying ‘You’re volunteers so if
you don’t want to put up with , we’ll wait for someone who does’
doesn’t seem the best stance to take.

On the other hand, I’m also a stickler for correct typography, perfectly
composed layouts and such things and I think that ‘cosmetic’ changes often
go a long way to make a product appear much more professional and enjoyable
to work with.




Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
with spaces and capital letters there...

You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?

Why not? Assign any unused language code for source and "en" for
translation.



This seems like an attractive option but it has problems of its own (like:
when looking at the source, you will never be sure how the actual UI looks
like; many teams may actually want to implement some of the changes made to
the ‘English translation’ but they will not be notified of them and will
have to periodically search for such, etc.).

OTOH, setting that particular solution aside, I’m sure that other things
can be done to somewhat improve the situation. For example, couldn’t some
mechanism be implemented to explicitly mark certain changes as ‘small’ or
‘cosmetic’ so that the translations in Pootle are just marked as ‘Needs
work’ instead of right out deleting them? Or even better, add a new status
specifically meaning ‘Cosmetic change’ that allows re-confirming the
existing translations en masse if the changes are irrelevant to them?


Sometimes 'cosmetic' change could mean a difference. To me is indicative 
if string is 1) in all caps, if 2) first letter is capitalized and if 3) 
all letters are lowercased.


It's hard to mark what is cosmetic change from what was badly written 
before and now is corrected. Fixing bad language in template is a must 
and should not be optional.


That 'Month' ~ 'month' example may not make difference for Cyrillic 
scripts but Latin scripts can and should change translation accordingly.


No translation should be removed. Whatever changes in original string, 
mark translation as fuzzy and leave (old) translation in there.


Maybe there are volunteers who can make a script for Cyrillic writing 
system which could read trough po files, convert strings to lowercase, 
compare that to (Cyrillic) translation and change what needed if there 
is a match. Maybe this could work for some other writing systems/scripts.


If 'cosmetic' changes need to be: better in one-word string then in 
thous wrapping in two or three lines.


Kruno





Best regards,
Mihail Balabanov




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[sv1]

Þann 2017-10-06 09:57, Gabor Kelemen reit:

But the downloaded file contains double backslashes for Hungarian too.

So this one may be a Pootle issue, not a source code one.


Those strings (total of 6) did in previous version have [LF] newline 
symbols, which for some reason changes to '\\n' entities in Pootle. But 
uploading the file back to Pootle with normal '\n' entities in the 
translations *does* work, validations tests don't complain (but my 
Lokalize does).

So this is more of a strange quirk than a malfunction.

Regards,
Sveinn



2017-10-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :


Hi Gabor;

There are more creepy things circulating:

For example in LibreOffice master – UI --> wizards/source/resources.po 
-->

Unit #137767072 I get this in the downloaded PO-file:

#. zRGEs
#: resources_en_US.properties
#, fuzzy
msgctxt ""
"resources_en_US.properties\n"
"RID_COMMON_21\n"
"property.text"
msgid ""
"The wizard could not be run, because important files were not 
found.\\n"
"Under 'Tools - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Paths' click the 'Default' 
button

to "
"reset the paths to the original default settings.\\n"
"Then run the wizard again."
msgstr ""
"Ekki tókst að keyra leiðarvísinn, þar sem mikilvægar skrár fundust
ekki.\n"
"Farðu í 'Verkfæri - Valkostir - %PRODUCTNAME - Slóðir' smelltu á "
"'Sjálfgefið' hnappinn til að endursetja slóðirnar á upprunalegar
stillingar.\n"
"Keyrðu svo aftur leiðarvísinn."

You see the double backslash in the newline entities, compared to the
"normal" ones in my older translation. There's a bunch of similar 
issues;

possibly my download got somehow fubar-ed, will try again later.
But possibly this is a more serious server-side matter!

Will file a bug once someone else confirms the behaviour for other
languages.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli


Þann fös  6.okt 2017 08:52, skrifaði Gabor Kelemen:


Hi Sveinn

It seems like the empty sting was marked for translation:

#define RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING
NC_("RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING", "")

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/extensions/inc/strings.hrc#320

This RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING was an empty string before the 
gettext

migration too:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/extensi
ons/source/update/check/updatehdl.src?id=00657aef09d85
4c74fb426a935a3e8b1fc390bb0

But I think now the gettext framework would retrieve the mo file 
header

here, which is probably not the expected behavior.

Could you file a bug report please?

Regards
Gabor



2017-10-06 10:12 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :

Hi,


(not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false
positive checks - but still...)

There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI -->
extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341
Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.

Can someone check in their language?

Sveinn í Felli

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Mikhail Balabanov]

Hello,

On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Serg Bormant  wrote:

> 2017-10-06 23:12 GMT+03:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos :
> > 2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :
> >> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc
> > What is your point?
> It is very simple.
> As I can see, Pootle has 135 languages now and some teams work offline.
> If someone makes ONLY ONE cosmetic change in translatable strings,
> everyone of 135 language teams should adopt this change.
>


As someone who translates practically alone for my language (mainly
stealing from my sleep), I agree that this is far from effective use of
volunteers’ often very scarce spare time. Saying ‘You’re volunteers so if
you don’t want to put up with , we’ll wait for someone who does’
doesn’t seem the best stance to take.

On the other hand, I’m also a stickler for correct typography, perfectly
composed layouts and such things and I think that ‘cosmetic’ changes often
go a long way to make a product appear much more professional and enjoyable
to work with.



> >> Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
> >> with spaces and capital letters there...
> >
> > You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?
>
> Why not? Assign any unused language code for source and "en" for
> translation.
>


This seems like an attractive option but it has problems of its own (like:
when looking at the source, you will never be sure how the actual UI looks
like; many teams may actually want to implement some of the changes made to
the ‘English translation’ but they will not be notified of them and will
have to periodically search for such, etc.).

OTOH, setting that particular solution aside, I’m sure that other things
can be done to somewhat improve the situation. For example, couldn’t some
mechanism be implemented to explicitly mark certain changes as ‘small’ or
‘cosmetic’ so that the translations in Pootle are just marked as ‘Needs
work’ instead of right out deleting them? Or even better, add a new status
specifically meaning ‘Cosmetic change’ that allows re-confirming the
existing translations en masse if the changes are irrelevant to them?


Best regards,
Mihail Balabanov

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Serg Bormant]

Hi,

2017-10-06 23:12 GMT+03:00 Adolfo Jayme Barrientos :
> 2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :
>> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc
>
> What is your point?
It is very simple.
As I can see, Pootle has 135 languages now and some teams work offline.
If someone makes ONLY ONE cosmetic change in translatable strings,
everyone of 135 language teams should adopt this change.
If someone makes a bunch of cosmetic changes  (for ex. change
register, change spaces, add colons, remove colons -- I remember all
of them), everyone of 135 teams shold working hard to restore what was
alredy done.

So, what changed with this and like this commits?

1)

diff --git a/sc/inc/scfuncs.hrc b/sc/inc/scfuncs.hrc
index b1b64d2..b3a231f 100644
--- a/sc/inc/scfuncs.hrc
+++ b/sc/inc/scfuncs.hrc
- NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE", "year"),
+ NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE", "Year"),
- NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE", "month"),
+ NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE", "Month"),
- NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE", "day"),
+ NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE", "Day"),
- NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE_VALUE", "text"),
+ NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DATE_VALUE", "Text"),
- NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DIFF_DATE_360", "Date_1"),
+ NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DIFF_DATE_360", "Date 1"),
- NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DIFF_DATE_360", "Date_2"),
+ NC_("SC_OPCODE_GET_DIFF_DATE_360", "Date 2"),
... and so on ...

2) Before this in Pootle:

msgid "year"
msgstr "год"

msgid "month"
msgstr "месяц"

msgid "day"
msgstr "день"

msgid "text"
msgstr "текст"
...

3) After this in Pootle:

msgid "Year"
msgstr ""

msgid "Month"
msgstr ""

msgid "Day"
msgstr ""

msgid "Text"
msgstr ""
...

4) Than I need to translate again:

msgid "Year"
msgstr "год"

msgid "Month"
msgstr "месяц"

msgid "Day"
msgstr "день"

msgid "Text"
msgstr "текст"
...

5) The final of story is

-msgid "year"
+msgid "Year"
 msgstr "год"

-msgid "month"
+msgid "Month"
 msgstr "месяц"

-msgid "day"
+msgid "Day"
 msgstr "день"

-msgid "text"
+msgid "Text"
 msgstr "текст"
...


Is it really the Big Deal and all 135 teams need roll up their sleeves
to fix anyone irresponsible whim?

>> Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
>> with spaces and capital letters there...
>
> You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?

Why not? Assign any unused language code for source and "en" for translation.

-- 
wbr, sb

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi Adolfo

Le 6 oct. 2017 22:14, "Adolfo Jayme Barrientos"  a
écrit :

2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc

What is your point?

> What the fucking shit happens again and again release to release?

Watch your mouth. Nobody has put a gun down your throat to oblige you
to contribute.

> Russian we get 7_540 items to translate and most of them are tinkering
> with English source items, that doesn't change anything in translated
> items, but again, again, and AGAIN we need to restore by hands old
> translations for new sources.

You realize that Cloph fixes this behind the scenes every six months, right?

> Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
> with spaces and capital letters there...

You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?


Please all, calm down, we will look after what bugs next with Christian.
There has been changes with gettext, others with UX, we will sort out what
should be automated and what can't. As Adolfo said there won't be EN to EN
translation however. But please think that LO needs to evolve and we need
to adapt our process too, meaning that we can make mistakes together with
having to redo some work.
I'm a volunteer like you on this so be sure that I evaluate what commitment
it asks.
Cheers
Sophie

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

2017-10-06 10:45 GMT-05:00 Serg Bormant :
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc

What is your point?

> What the fucking shit happens again and again release to release?

Watch your mouth. Nobody has put a gun down your throat to oblige you
to contribute.

> Russian we get 7_540 items to translate and most of them are tinkering
> with English source items, that doesn't change anything in translated
> items, but again, again, and AGAIN we need to restore by hands old
> translations for new sources.

You realize that Cloph fixes this behind the scenes every six months, right?

> Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
> with spaces and capital letters there...

You realize that this suggestion makes no sense whatsoever?

Adolfo

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Berend Ytsma]

Hello,

With the master update Frisian lost 50% of it's translations.
That can't be right.
I see a lot of languages only loose 10%

Greetings

Berend Ytsma
Frisian Translator

On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 6:11 PM, Sophie  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Le 06/10/2017 à 11:57, Gabor Kelemen a écrit :
> > Hi Sveinn
> >
> > I see that string in git has only normal \n sequences:
> > https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/wizards/
> source/resources/resources_en_US.properties#n46
> >
> > Just like on the Pootle UI.
> >
> > But the downloaded file contains double backslashes for Hungarian too.
> >
> > So this one may be a Pootle issue, not a source code one.
>
> I'll check with Christian next week when we will be in Rome and will
> give you feedback on that.
> Cheers
> Sophie
>
> --
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> GSM: +33683901545
> IRC: sophi
> Release coordinator
> The Document Foundation
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sophie]

Hi all,

Le 06/10/2017 à 11:57, Gabor Kelemen a écrit :
> Hi Sveinn
> 
> I see that string in git has only normal \n sequences:
> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/wizards/source/resources/resources_en_US.properties#n46
> 
> Just like on the Pootle UI.
> 
> But the downloaded file contains double backslashes for Hungarian too.
> 
> So this one may be a Pootle issue, not a source code one.

I'll check with Christian next week when we will be in Rome and will
give you feedback on that.
Cheers
Sophie

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IRC: sophi
Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Serg Bormant]

https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=029f2fdc

What the fucking shit happens again and again release to release? In
Russian we get 7_540 items to translate and most of them are tinkering
with English source items, that doesn't change anything in translated
items, but again, again, and AGAIN we need to restore by hands old
translations for new sources.

Please, please, PLEASE make English-to-English translation and play
with spaces and capital letters there...

--
wbr, sb

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Gabor Kelemen]

Hi Sveinn

I see that string in git has only normal \n sequences:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/tree/wizards/source/resources/resources_en_US.properties#n46

Just like on the Pootle UI.

But the downloaded file contains double backslashes for Hungarian too.

So this one may be a Pootle issue, not a source code one.

Regards
Gabor

2017-10-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :

> Hi Gabor;
>
> There are more creepy things circulating:
>
> For example in LibreOffice master – UI --> wizards/source/resources.po -->
> Unit #137767072 I get this in the downloaded PO-file:
>
> #. zRGEs
> #: resources_en_US.properties
> #, fuzzy
> msgctxt ""
> "resources_en_US.properties\n"
> "RID_COMMON_21\n"
> "property.text"
> msgid ""
> "The wizard could not be run, because important files were not found.\\n"
> "Under 'Tools - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Paths' click the 'Default' button
> to "
> "reset the paths to the original default settings.\\n"
> "Then run the wizard again."
> msgstr ""
> "Ekki tókst að keyra leiðarvísinn, þar sem mikilvægar skrár fundust
> ekki.\n"
> "Farðu í 'Verkfæri - Valkostir - %PRODUCTNAME - Slóðir' smelltu á "
> "'Sjálfgefið' hnappinn til að endursetja slóðirnar á upprunalegar
> stillingar.\n"
> "Keyrðu svo aftur leiðarvísinn."
>
> You see the double backslash in the newline entities, compared to the
> "normal" ones in my older translation. There's a bunch of similar issues;
> possibly my download got somehow fubar-ed, will try again later.
> But possibly this is a more serious server-side matter!
>
> Will file a bug once someone else confirms the behaviour for other
> languages.
>
> Best regards,
> Sveinn í Felli
>
>
> Þann fös  6.okt 2017 08:52, skrifaði Gabor Kelemen:
>
>> Hi Sveinn
>>
>> It seems like the empty sting was marked for translation:
>>
>> #define RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING
>> NC_("RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING", "")
>>
>> https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/extensions/inc/strings.hrc#320
>>
>> This RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING was an empty string before the gettext
>> migration too:
>> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/extensi
>> ons/source/update/check/updatehdl.src?id=00657aef09d85
>> 4c74fb426a935a3e8b1fc390bb0
>>
>> But I think now the gettext framework would retrieve the mo file header
>> here, which is probably not the expected behavior.
>>
>> Could you file a bug report please?
>>
>> Regards
>> Gabor
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-10-06 10:12 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :
>>
>> Hi,
>>>
>>> (not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false
>>> positive checks - but still...)
>>>
>>> There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI -->
>>> extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341
>>> Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.
>>>
>>> Can someone check in their language?
>>>
>>> Sveinn í Felli
>>>
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
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>>> deleted
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sveinn í Felli]

Forgot to say that in Pootle the string is normal (without the 
extra-backslash).


Sveinn



2017-10-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :


Hi Gabor;

There are more creepy things circulating:

For example in LibreOffice master – UI --> wizards/source/resources.po -->
Unit #137767072 I get this in the downloaded PO-file:

#. zRGEs
#: resources_en_US.properties
#, fuzzy
msgctxt ""
"resources_en_US.properties\n"
"RID_COMMON_21\n"
"property.text"
msgid ""
"The wizard could not be run, because important files were not found.\\n"
"Under 'Tools - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Paths' click the 'Default' button
to "
"reset the paths to the original default settings.\\n"
"Then run the wizard again."
msgstr ""
"Ekki tókst að keyra leiðarvísinn, þar sem mikilvægar skrár fundust
ekki.\n"
"Farðu í 'Verkfæri - Valkostir - %PRODUCTNAME - Slóðir' smelltu á"
"'Sjálfgefið' hnappinn til að endursetja slóðirnar á upprunalegar
stillingar.\n"
"Keyrðu svo aftur leiðarvísinn."

You see the double backslash in the newline entities, compared to the
"normal" ones in my older translation. There's a bunch of similar issues;
possibly my download got somehow fubar-ed, will try again later.
But possibly this is a more serious server-side matter!

Will file a bug once someone else confirms the behaviour for other
languages.

Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli


Þann fös  6.okt 2017 08:52, skrifaði Gabor Kelemen:


Hi Sveinn

It seems like the empty sting was marked for translation:

#define RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING
NC_("RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING", "")

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/extensions/inc/strings.hrc#320

This RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING was an empty string before the gettext
migration too:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/extensi
ons/source/update/check/updatehdl.src?id=00657aef09d85
4c74fb426a935a3e8b1fc390bb0

But I think now the gettext framework would retrieve the mo file header
here, which is probably not the expected behavior.

Could you file a bug report please?

Regards
Gabor



2017-10-06 10:12 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :

Hi,


(not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false
positive checks - but still...)

There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI -->
extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341
Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.

Can someone check in their language?

Sveinn í Felli

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Hi,

you are correct, that string is now buggy, but it is as such some time in
the 6.0/master ...

Lp, m.

2017-10-06 11:04 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :

> Hi Gabor;
>
> There are more creepy things circulating:
>
> For example in LibreOffice master – UI --> wizards/source/resources.po -->
> Unit #137767072 I get this in the downloaded PO-file:
>
> #. zRGEs
> #: resources_en_US.properties
> #, fuzzy
> msgctxt ""
> "resources_en_US.properties\n"
> "RID_COMMON_21\n"
> "property.text"
> msgid ""
> "The wizard could not be run, because important files were not found.\\n"
> "Under 'Tools - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Paths' click the 'Default' button
> to "
> "reset the paths to the original default settings.\\n"
> "Then run the wizard again."
> msgstr ""
> "Ekki tókst að keyra leiðarvísinn, þar sem mikilvægar skrár fundust
> ekki.\n"
> "Farðu í 'Verkfæri - Valkostir - %PRODUCTNAME - Slóðir' smelltu á "
> "'Sjálfgefið' hnappinn til að endursetja slóðirnar á upprunalegar
> stillingar.\n"
> "Keyrðu svo aftur leiðarvísinn."
>
> You see the double backslash in the newline entities, compared to the
> "normal" ones in my older translation. There's a bunch of similar issues;
> possibly my download got somehow fubar-ed, will try again later.
> But possibly this is a more serious server-side matter!
>
> Will file a bug once someone else confirms the behaviour for other
> languages.
>
> Best regards,
> Sveinn í Felli
>
>
> Þann fös  6.okt 2017 08:52, skrifaði Gabor Kelemen:
>
>> Hi Sveinn
>>
>> It seems like the empty sting was marked for translation:
>>
>> #define RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING
>> NC_("RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING", "")
>>
>> https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/extensions/inc/strings.hrc#320
>>
>> This RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING was an empty string before the gettext
>> migration too:
>> https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/extensi
>> ons/source/update/check/updatehdl.src?id=00657aef09d85
>> 4c74fb426a935a3e8b1fc390bb0
>>
>> But I think now the gettext framework would retrieve the mo file header
>> here, which is probably not the expected behavior.
>>
>> Could you file a bug report please?
>>
>> Regards
>> Gabor
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-10-06 10:12 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :
>>
>> Hi,
>>>
>>> (not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false
>>> positive checks - but still...)
>>>
>>> There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI -->
>>> extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341
>>> Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.
>>>
>>> Can someone check in their language?
>>>
>>> Sveinn í Felli
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sveinn í Felli]

Hi Gabor;

There are more creepy things circulating:

For example in LibreOffice master – UI --> wizards/source/resources.po 
--> Unit #137767072 I get this in the downloaded PO-file:


#. zRGEs
#: resources_en_US.properties
#, fuzzy
msgctxt ""
"resources_en_US.properties\n"
"RID_COMMON_21\n"
"property.text"
msgid ""
"The wizard could not be run, because important files were not found.\\n"
"Under 'Tools - Options - %PRODUCTNAME - Paths' click the 'Default' 
button to "

"reset the paths to the original default settings.\\n"
"Then run the wizard again."
msgstr ""
"Ekki tókst að keyra leiðarvísinn, þar sem mikilvægar skrár fundust ekki.\n"
"Farðu í 'Verkfæri - Valkostir - %PRODUCTNAME - Slóðir' smelltu á "
"'Sjálfgefið' hnappinn til að endursetja slóðirnar á upprunalegar 
stillingar.\n"

"Keyrðu svo aftur leiðarvísinn."

You see the double backslash in the newline entities, compared to the 
"normal" ones in my older translation. There's a bunch of similar 
issues; possibly my download got somehow fubar-ed, will try again later.

But possibly this is a more serious server-side matter!

Will file a bug once someone else confirms the behaviour for other 
languages.


Best regards,
Sveinn í Felli

Þann fös  6.okt 2017 08:52, skrifaði Gabor Kelemen:

Hi Sveinn

It seems like the empty sting was marked for translation:

#define RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING
NC_("RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING", "")

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/extensions/inc/strings.hrc#320

This RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING was an empty string before the gettext
migration too:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/extensions/source/update/check/updatehdl.src?id=00657aef09d854c74fb426a935a3e8b1fc390bb0

But I think now the gettext framework would retrieve the mo file header
here, which is probably not the expected behavior.

Could you file a bug report please?

Regards
Gabor



2017-10-06 10:12 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :


Hi,

(not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false
positive checks - but still...)

There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI -->
extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341
Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.

Can someone check in their language?

Sveinn í Felli

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Gabor Kelemen]

Hi Sveinn

It seems like the empty sting was marked for translation:

#define RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING
NC_("RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING", "")

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/extensions/inc/strings.hrc#320

This RID_UPDATE_BUBBLE_DOWNLOADING was an empty string before the gettext
migration too:
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/extensions/source/update/check/updatehdl.src?id=00657aef09d854c74fb426a935a3e8b1fc390bb0

But I think now the gettext framework would retrieve the mo file header
here, which is probably not the expected behavior.

Could you file a bug report please?

Regards
Gabor



2017-10-06 10:12 GMT+02:00 Sveinn í Felli :

> Hi,
>
> (not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false
> positive checks - but still...)
>
> There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI -->
> extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341
> Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.
>
> Can someone check in their language?
>
> Sveinn í Felli
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: l10n+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-uns
> ubscribe/
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> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>

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[libreoffice-l10n] Updated templates for master

[Sveinn í Felli]

Hi,

(not going to rant about all the 7000+ unnecessary fuzzies and false 
positive checks - but still...)


There is a weird string in LibreOffice master – UI --> 
extensions/messages.po --> Unit #137750341

Seems there's no translatable text and thus no translation possible.

Can someone check in their language?

Sveinn í Felli

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