Re: [lace] Mysteries of lace origin -- very long
Hell all spiders, Being a hobby for me lace history, I would like to add my two cents to this thread and as a follow up to the phrase said by Tamara: “I haven't given up yet (half of the book still to be read) but, it looks, like there's not a trace of bobbin lace in Venice before 1525. And yet, they were selling it 9yrs later... So, did it spring from the sea, in its finished perfection, like Venus herself? None of the slow gestation (development) period which could have been expected?” Spain is almost unknown when we talk of Lace History. The main reason is because there are not written evidences, nor pattern books dedicated to laces of the ancient world. Besides of Florence Lewis May, curator emeritus of textiles for the Hispanic Society of America’s Museum in Manhattan, the referrer we have on laces here in Spain, is the book published in 1076 by Mª Angeles Gonzalez Mena: CATALOGO DE ENCAJES Y BORDADOS (ISBN 84-400-7927-7). She considered lace as any type of knotting : One or more threads joined together forming a framework by combining twisted or plaited grounds with shaded motifs, following a proper rule created by the craftsmen/women. Said this, macramé is an early art of decorative knotting. The origin of the word is from the Turkish “makrama”. It was a handicraft worked by Assyrian and Persian, great teachers of this art. Arabs spread later this art for the Mediterranean, including Spain, where we have record of it, mainly taken from sculptures, paints and illustrations as well as historical quotes. So, I keep the theory that macramé, as an early art made with hands, together with passementeries, have contributed to evolve to what we have known later as bobbin lace. I translate some historical quotes reported on the book of Mª Angeles Gonzalez Mena, all of them make reference to 13th, and 15th, Centuries. One of the ancient lace piece records from XIV cent. Is a corporal (it is displayed in Pedralbes Monastery, Barcelona) which is framed with a gold needle lace. It seems that Elisenda de Montcada, wife of Jaime II (1291-1327) gave it to the Convent. It is also recorded a piece of lace corresponding to a priest vestment related to San Bernardo Calvó (13th.cent.) displayed in Vich Museum, that it is considered as a first example of Spanish lace. It is a work of twisted an interwoven white and gold threads. Other recorded pieces are those found and stored in the burial place of the Royal Family at the Real Monasterio de las Huelgas (Burgos, Spain): Enrique I from Castilla, wearing a needle lace cap. Macramé gloves, worn by Maria de Aragón, as well as 2 filet lace cushions belonging to Sancho, son of Alfonso XI. All corresponding to 13th, century. About 1469, they are described and quoted bobbin and needle lace on an inventory ordered for the wedding of Isabel I Castilla and Fernando I Aragón also known as The Catholics. It is known too that their daughter: Catalina, married with Henry VIII (King of England) carried with her large quantity of laces Spanish style. It is also well known the success that Puntas de España (the golden thread laces) had during 15th, Cent., contemporary to Le Pompe, if I am not wrong. It is sure that before Le Pompe, other laces were worked in Italy as it was in Spain, and business deal help to spread all sort of crafts between different European countries: Italy, Spain, France, Antwerp, Germany, etc. The weddings among different European Royal Families also provide to expanding it. Perhaps this mail has been sooo long, excuse me. Carolina. Barcelona. Spain. Carolina de la Guardia http://www.geocities.com/carolgallego Witch Stitch Lace - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Mysteries of lace origin -- very long
Carolina and others, Being new to bobbin lace making I'm relishing the mysteries of origin. I love history, being an amateur genealogist, so I'm paying more attention to photos of old laces, information, etc. that are being shared via internet. Thank you! Norma http://normasneedlez.blogspot.com http://sistersstitching.blogspot.com NATA #847 Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] lemongrass Obama dress
Hello again! How does wool lace in silk net, described by the designer as custom guipure, translate into chemical lace?? Susan in Grassy Key - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Mysteries of lace origin -- very long
Hello Carolina and everyone I am glad you wrote about the Spanish laces, and the macramé. The Renaissance would not have happened without a paradigm shift; similarly bobbin lacemaking existed when there was a way of thinking to make it, and a reason to use it. I have a theory that if one wants to learn how people think, of a particular culture, learn exactly how they crafted things. Through lacemaking, in each regional way to make lace, there are clues to the mind operative. The origins of lace...one can research costume, employment (viz. the guilds that made the clothing), trade and commerce (yes, the business deals), custom from folkways as well as royalty and the priesthood, teaching methods or in another way, learning methods (out of books? not as we do today - but not necessarily word-of-mouth, people could read actions, and learn by doing). And by 'lace' we are talking about the dentellated textile, not the cord that laces up a garment - or both? I was working an insertion from one of the folders De Linnenkast,and it occurred to me when examining the pattern and its complicated repeat of what seemed to be pathways all over the place, that the person who designed it probably didn't read - at least in the sense of looking across a line from left to right. They must have had the skill to see in different directions at once. Fascinating. On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:09 AM, C. de la Guardia carolina...@aol.comwrote: It is sure that before Le Pompe, other laces were worked in Italy as it was in Spain, and business deal help to spread all sort of crafts between different European countries: Italy, Spain, France, Antwerp, Germany, etc. -- Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] lemongrass Obama dress
Hallo to all I m a bit lost now ok i might be lightly blond but still.. even then i can not follow anymore could one of the smart ones enlighten me what it is? is it lace net basis uesed for the felting of the wool merinos elements? or what is it now and how does retournac fit in all of this? many kind regards francis very strong winds unplaisant sticky wet rain cold dark ... hottl...@neo.rr.com schreef: Hello again! How does wool lace in silk net, described by the designer as custom guipure, translate into chemical lace?? Susan in Grassy Key - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.12/1911 - Release Date: 23/01/2009 7:28 - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] lemongrass dress fabric
Hello All! Did I raise more questions than I answered regarding the Obama dress? If so, I promise that the following details are the last I will have to say on the matter!! G There is a wealth of info online; where would we be without the net? I reread the designer's own comments regarding the construction, i.e. she called it wool lace in silk net, custom guipure. I Yahooed guipure was directed to the Wikpedia page on filet lace. The technique sounded correct after scrolling down to the links, I found the Filet-Guipure pdf of Th de Dillmont's 1923 booklets. Paging through, some of the wheel motifs seemed similar to those pictured in the close-up photo of the coat/dress on the bbc site posted to Arachne. The filet lace technique of needlelace created by darning on a ground of netting does seem to fit here--even if the resulting fabric lace (or lace fabric) is machine made. The designer's own description indicated that several layers of fabric were employ ed including pashmina for warmth. The lining reference was for French radzimir silk the Wikpedia definition is silk fabric made with lengthwise ribs or a broken twill weave. A Yahoo search brought up all kinds of designer's who use this type of silk for couture fashion. Finally, the whole ensemble was worn over a bullet proof vest!!! Susan, where it's warming up to 70* today - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] lemongrass Obama dress
Guipure, especially when used by a fashion designer, is a rather general term which just means a lace made up of separate elements and 'custom' means it was designed for the client. From the close-up picture in the link that Jane sent http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7840306.stm (image no 8) it does look very much like chemical lace, machine embroidery worked onto a dissolvable fabric which once removed leaves a holey, lacey fabric. You can't see from the picture what fibre it is made from, but it could be wool embroidery and lined with silk The image is actually a little bit bigger than it displays on the BBC web page, so right click and 'Save As' - or on a mac just click and drag it to the desktop. Brenda On 23 Jan 2009, at 13:29, hottl...@neo.rr.com wrote: Hello again! How does wool lace in silk net, described by the designer as custom guipure, translate into chemical lace?? Susan in Grassy Key Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Bobbin activity.....an update.
Sorry I cant tell you what is on my pillow(Just my head I think!) but I will keep you up to date on what I (we as I have a few collaborators) are doing. We have looked at the images that certain museums have on the web which they have labeled Bobbins even lace bobbins. They have been remarkably cooperative and helpful. There are two small bones (matched!) which one museum has labeled bobbins but then put an iron age label on them. They are pretty certain that the Iron age is an OK date so I have dropped investigating these completely, though of all the possible bobbins that are actually bone that I have seen, these look possible. The other two bobbins I have looked at are given a Roman dating, though they admit to the possibility of them being wrong. They were unearthed at a Roman site, but may well have been lost there at a much later date. At least they are turned bone and sort of bobbin like, they are incomplete but we, including the curator, have decided that they are much more like Parchment prickers so I have laid the matter to rest there. The other interesting thing we have done is to create a composite photograph of the types of bobbins historically used in England (Well we have included the Ipswich (USA) bobbin too). We have the following all lined up. 1. Ipswich; Malmsbury; East Midland; East Devon; Downton; South Bucks and a Suffolk bobbin. Whilst it was interesting doing it, I am not sure what it does for me or posterity. I cant publish the picture as the Suffolk, (for very good reasons) is copyright. I ma still after a picture of an Ipswich bobbin please. (or a real one which I will happily buy.) It would be so nice to handle one. BTW that is one thing I would pass on to antique bobbin collectors, actually handling, feeling, seeing detail etc, is the way to really learn about them. Most of my collection is photographic and I am thus handicapped! Perhaps I will win the Lotto one day and own a few beauties and plain ones too as I like plain bobbins that are well turned. :) From Brian and Jean; in Cooranbong. Australia - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Ipswich bobbins?
Do any of you or your friends actually have an Ipswich bobbin? They seem to be like hens teeth! If you do have such a bobbin I will write you such a sweet and appealing letter for a picture. :) Just a happy snap or two will do. If you want to know more about Ipswich lace then this is the only article I know of, but there is a museum there to visit. # Cotteral. Marta. M. (1996) The Laces of Ipswich, Massachusetts. The Bulletin of the ILOI 17:4. Summer 1996-97. (:14-16) A good article that includes quite good information on the bobbins together with a couple of photographs featuring the bobbins. From Brian and Jean; in Cooranbong. Australia - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
Re: [lace] Ipswich bobbins?
Brian, Are you aware that Marta's article was written while she was researching Ipswich lace on a broader scale and that she published a full treatise/book entitled, The Laces of Ipswich: The Art and Economics of an Early American Industry, 1750-1840 (Paperback, 176 pages, January, 2003) ? (She also married after the original articles were published and her book is published under her married name, Marta Cotterell Raffel.)? If memory serves, our local guild (Chesapeake Regional Lace Guild-CRLG) awarded a grant to her to assist her in her original research and we were privileged to have her give a lecture?at one of our Lace Days before the book was finalized. ?Members of our guild created replica Ipswich-style pillows and bobbins and periodically demonstrate Ipswich lacemaking?at the newly reopened National Museum of American History of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C.? If you aren't aware, I believe the bobbins were made of bamboo or something very similar and are v ery simple.? The proportions and shape remind me a bit of some I have seen Puerto Rican lacemakers use.? Think of a plain dowel with a straight cut in for the neckall else is straight and plain.? I do believe the Ipswich bobbins' necks, both actual and replicas, were carved or cut in?by hand, not turned on a lathe.? About 8 years ago, I had the opportunity to visit the Whipple House in Ipswich, Massachusetts which houses some samples of the original laces, as well as a number of other very interesting items.? It is?well worth a visit.? Vicki in Silver Spring, Maryland, USA -Original Message- From: Brian Lemin br...@exemail.com.au To: lace@arachne.com Sent: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 1:55 pm Subject: [lace] Ipswich bobbins? Do any of you or your friends actually have an Ipswich bobbin? They seem to be like hens teeth!? ? If you do have such a bobbin I will write you such a sweet and appealing letter for a picture. :) Just a happy snap or two will do.? ? If you want to know more about Ipswich lace then this is the only article I know of, but there is a museum there to visit.? ? # Cotteral. Marta. M. (1996) The Laces of Ipswich, Massachusetts. The Bulletin of the ILOI 17:4. Summer 1996-97. (:14-16)? ? ? A good article that includes quite good information on the bobbins together with a couple of photographs featuring the bobbins.? ? From Brian and Jean;? in Cooranbong. Australia?? - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Re: Mysteries of lace origin
On Jan 22, 2009, at 23:48, Susan Lambiris wrote: [...] one might imagine that decorating oneself with a distinctively Greek might have been a fashionable way to call attention to oneself in the Venice of that time. One might imagine, but... Not all of the Venetian laws (and traditions) in respect to clothes were prohibitive (ie: don't wear this); quite a few were prescriptive (ie: wear that). And all of them were quite scathing when it came to foreign clothes. The excess fabric used in sleeves of shirts was criticised because it was French (even though, actually, the fashion came from Germany. But Germany was -- sometimes -- an ally. France was -- always -- an enemy). Villains in paintings were shown as wearing foreign clothes. Those of the Venetians who spent some time on the Terrafirma (by which the good folk of the City understood *everything* outside the city proper even something as close as Vicenza, now a couple of train stops away) had a permission to relax the city rues somewhat. Like: the toga didn't have to reach the ground; it could be a couple of inches shorter. Or, if they went, cap-in-hand to Rome, hoping for help, they might temper their clothes to something less in your face. But, the folk in the City itself? Chances of the upperclass Venetians thinking it was clever to show oneself in foreign clothing was exactly nil. They were the ones who travelled (and who might have seen novelties outside the City) but they were also the ones who were fiercely traditional and, almost arrogantly, proud of being Venetians. Even as the rest of Italy laughed into their (huge and perfectly legal g) sleeves at their pretensions, the Venetians sneered at everything not Venetian. The similarities between the Venetian and the Greek needlelaces could be explained by either a) coincidence (as the almost simultaneous appearance of bobbin lace in Venice and Antwerp has been explained by some historians) or, b) copying, but in the opposite direction. Ie, the Greeks might have copied the wear of the Venetian patrician merchants, thinking it was classy (which Greek islands, *specifically*, did you have in mind as being under Venice's control?). Of course, it could also be argued that the Venetians introduced needlelace to the Greek islands, but I find that harder to believe, given that the Greeks have always been very tenacious of their own traditions and very unwilling to adopt new customs. Not half as stuck on themselves as the Venetians of that period were though :) Also, traditions tend to linger longer in rural areas than they do in the cities; that would account for why some of those techniques are still surviving in today's Greece but have been ditched by Venice a good while since. Also, they particularly despised their Venetian occupiers, if anything rather more than they hated the Turks (the Turks, after all, hadn't pretended to be fellow-Christians before attacking Constantinople). If you're talking about Cyprus... The Greeks there (escapees from the Turkish takeover of Constantinople and the surrounding areas, mostly) did intermarry -- some -- with the Venetians but not with the Turks. Venice had, intermittently, made its peace with Turkey (as mercantile profits dictated) but was never the best buddy of it. Vis pretending to be fellow Christians... The rift between the Roman Catholics (like Venice) and the Orthodox (like Greeks and Cypriots and Russians) never *quite* healed; certainly, it was still a very big deal in the Reneissance. I suspect they did the same thing with bobbin lace, only in this case their inspiration came from the Low Countries, probably Antwerp, where it seems likely early bobbin lace was in the process of evolving from passementerie. The Antwerp artisans did not have a tradition of publishing their patterns, however (possibly because these were commercial products, not something done at home) which may be why the Venetian pattern books are the oldest we have. That Antwerp didn't publish its patterns for protectionist reasons is a likely possibility. But, if lace was was a commercial product -- and earlier than in Venice, as you suggest -- then how come it had been introduced to Germany (or, what is now Switzerland) by the merchants of Venice and Italy (as specifically stated by RM), not those of the Netherlands? After all, Antwerp was geographically closer than Venice and the merchants there were as powerful and enterprising as those of Venice... Are you suggesting that Antwerp sold its lace to the Venetian merchants, so that they could take their cut by reselling it in Germany? -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Re: Mysteries of lace origin -- another long one
On Jan 23, 2009, at 12:03, bev walker wrote: I have a theory that if one wants to learn how people think, of a particular culture, learn exactly how they crafted things. Through lacemaking, in each regional way to make lace, there are clues to the mind operative. Language, too, reflects the culture in some unexpected ways and shapes our thoughts in the process. My masters thesis was on social and cultural aspects of language (specifically in teaching English as a foreign language) but it wasn't until just the other day (because I was elbow-deep in paintings showing/not showing lace) that I thought about one particular phrase, which shows the differences between how people of a culture see the the same thing. In English, you say still life; in Polish, we say dead nature. One is translated as the other, because both cover the same area and are likely to show the same subjects. Yet... There's that difference of life and death... Still life makes one think more of a bowl of flowers, with maybe a pair of gloves or a letter next to it; dead nature makes one think of a brace of pheasants, tossed on the table, heads down and blood dripping... The interaction between language and culture -- the way one shapes the other and vice versa -- is another mystery; one which had puzzled me ever since I started learning a second and third language (@8 10). The origins of lace...one can research costume, employment (viz. the guilds that made the clothing), trade and commerce (yes, the business deals), custom from folkways as well as royalty and the priesthood [...] I'm also thinking contemporaneous fiction, mostly because the ordinary folk were less likely to have been pictured, in either written or painted accounts. A peasant girl's trousseau may have been negotiated between the fathers with the same exactitude as a patrician girl's but there'd have been no lawyers to take it down, item by item. Similarly, a peasant couple were much less likely than a patrician one to sponsor a painting and be included in it (Saint X, with two donors type of thing). Servants were of little interest to painters of the 15th and 16th centuries, except, perhaps, as models for a saint. Yet, some of the unmentioned (and unmentionable g) classes might have been actual leaders of fashion in some circumstances. The Venetian book (The Dress of the Venetians, 1495-1525, by Stella Mary Newton) has this little gem in it: In Venice in the early sixteenth century the only members of the population free to dress as they pleased were the working classes and the prostitutes. Fascinating, especially given that Ms Newton does not differentiate between the street walkers (of which I'm sure Venice had its share) and the courtesans (which were a totally different kettle of fish). Some courtesans did make it into the painted record; the book has a detail from a Carpaccio painting (undated, but likely to be within that time frame) showing two of them, and the Arnold book (Patterns of Fashion 4) shows another one (unattributed, except to a private collection), dated 1600. In both paintings, the ladies of easy virtue are dressed to the nines, with no indication whatsoever that they cared a whit about the sumptuary laws. Additionally, the Newton book shows some portrait of a lady kind of painting where the ladies are also exhiiting sumptuous clothing but are *anything but* ladies. As for the written accounts... I'm thinking that a re-reading of Pietro Aretino is in order :) Not his political satires or his semi-blackmailing letters, but the two books he wrote about courtesans (the Polish titles were Nana, the Courtesan and How Nana Trained Her Daughter in Courtesan Arts). When I read those books at 8, I didn't understand them. When I re-read them at 15, I understood them but was distracted by both the sexual innuendo and the richness of language (the translator must have been a genius; nearly 45yrs later, I still remember that teapot spout was one of the -- many, many -- words used for the male member g). Needles to say, at he time, I paid no attention whatsoever to any references to clothes; can't even remember whether there had been any. But, if there had been...They'd have been perfect -- just the right time and place... And by 'lace' we are talking about the dentellated textile, not the cord that laces up a garment - or both? That's the nub, innit? :) For me, it's the first (though not, necessarily, dentellated. A textile, full of holes, yes.). But, if the early, plaited, bobbin laces are, indeed, the descendants of passementerie (and there seems to be an agreement on that point), then the lacing cords *do* have a place at the table -- if only as poor relations g -- because passementerie is made of cords, criss-crossing and shaped into loops. There's linguistic support for that, too. In English, there's the confusion of laces (cords vs textile), as you say. The frontspieces
[lace] Re: Mysteries of lace origin
On Jan 23, 2009, at 7:09, Carolina de la Guardia wrote: Spain is almost unknown when we talk of Lace History. And it is a pity, too. Fringes, macrame, gold-thread -- all of these are strongly represented in the early Spanish handiwork. Many of the patterns in Le Pompe -- especially those for plaited laces -- seem to draw on the Arabic ideas of ornamentation. As parts of modern-day Spain had been under Arabic influence (or, indeed, occupation) in those days, the intermingling of ideas would not be surprising. I keep the theory that macramé, as an early art made with hands, together with passementeries, have contributed to evolve to what we have known later as bobbin lace. You are in good company; so does Levey, who's considered the final word on all things lace :) One of the ancient lace piece records from XIV cent. Is a corporal (it is displayed in Pedralbes Monastery, Barcelona) which is framed with a gold needle lace. It seems that Elisenda de Montcada, wife of Jaime II (1291-1327) gave it to the Convent. Is this a *contemporaneous* written record? If so, does it specify gold needle lace? And, if it does, what word is used for lace? It is also recorded a piece of lace corresponding to a priest vestment related to San Bernardo Calvó (13th.cent.) displayed in Vich Museum, Same questions as above. Late-13th and early-14th centuries are about a 100years earlier than traces of lace anywhere else. About 1469, they are described and quoted bobbin and needle lace on an inventory ordered for the wedding of Isabel I Castilla and Fernando I Aragón also known as The Catholics. That's *priceless*. What are the words used for bobbin lace and needle lace? It is known too that their daughter: Catalina, married with Henry VIII (King of England) carried with her large quantity of laces Spanish style. Catherine of Aragon is also credited with starting bobbin lace traditions in England and she certainly fits the earliest time-frame. But, in all of the early portraits I've seen of her -- the young widow of Henry's brother, Henry's queen -- she seems not to wear any lace... It is also well known the success that Puntas de España (the golden thread laces) had during 15th, Cent., contemporary to Le Pompe, if I am not wrong. Le Pompe is middle of 16th century (second edition of the first book was published in 1559. Can't remember the date of the first edition). But, it's also the 15 hundreds, if that's how the Spanish count (different languages deal with dates in different ways) Are there any Puntas de Espana laces still surviving? If so, where can they be seen (short of travelling to Spain, not something I can afford right now g)? Are there photos on the Internet? What were the patterns like? Plaited or more elaborate? It is sure that before Le Pompe, other laces were worked in Italy as it was in Spain, Oh, certainly; a pattern book -- like a sumptuary law g -- arrives a bit late, if for different reasons. You don't publish a book for which there are no readers. I have always assumed that bobbin lacemaking had to have been well established and bobbin lace easily recognised as such, before there would have been enough of an audience to buy the book. It's probably one of the reasons there were so few bobbin lace pattern books, while there were so many embroidery -- and even needle lace -- ones; fewer people knew what BL was all about, earlier than mid 16thc. Perhaps this mail has been sooo long, excuse me. No, no, no! *How better* to spend a winter day, than to snuggle up to a mystery? :) -- Tamara P Duvallhttp://t-n-lace.net/ Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] earliest lace
Is it possible that the references to lace in Spain in the 13th and 14th centuries actually is filet lacis? This was supposed to be the earliest lace, earlier even than needle lace. I seem to recall a reference to a 12th century example, I think from an English tomb. And filet lacis is based on knotted cord. Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] Morris Dancing: Life with Bells On
There is at least one group of Morris Dancers here in Melbourne, Oz. I remember one group, in England named, I think, the Luton Hatters!! It is Very energetic dancing, - the film does not show this up. The staves - if not used properly can really damage a finger or hand, as they whack them together Very hard!! It is fun with all the bells tinkling, and the music. Regards from Liz in Melbourne, Oz. lizl...@bigpond.com -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 5.9 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 297 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace] lace for a wedding gift
A couple I don't know very well, but for whom I'd like to do something special, are getting married. Second time for both; he's around 60 and she's in her mid-forties. They live on a farm in the northeastern US. He's American; she's a British transplant. All that background isn't chat, really! I'm out of the loop with regard to wedding presents at all, and I haven't been to the US for 25 years so I want to check on what would be an appropriate lace gift. Some ideas I've had are a pair of lace-trimmed pillow cases, a framed lace medallion, his and hers bookmarks. They don't strike me as doily people. May I have some input please on these ideas or maybe some others? I don't want to invest tons of time, but I do want to make a special gesture. (I work in Torchon and Cantù.) Thanks! Sr. Claire - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com
[lace-chat] Imperial/metric
Jacquie wrote: I wonder how long the people who, when we changed to decimal currency in 1971, swore that they were never going to use it and were always going to convert everything back to pounds, shillings and pence, actually went on doing it. I still do occasionally out of interest such as today when I saw a special offer on Cadbury's cream eggs of 2 for 85p and worked out that they are now (on offer) eight shillings and sixpence each. I think they were sixpence, maybe ninepence, in 1971. My mother did the shopping for my housebound grandmother and had to write down the Pounds, shillings and pence equivalent of each item right up to my grandmother's death at the age of 96 in 1978, 7 years after decimalization. 89 years pre-decimalization just couldn't be pushed aside to cope with a pound changing from 240 old pence to 100 new ones. One of the reasons for converting back was because we were convinced that shopkeepers and other businesses would take advantage of the change and increase prices, hoping we wouldn't notice. I'm still convinced that, were there wasn't an exact conversion, the metric price was rounded up so things did cost more. The morning of the first day of metrication, I bought something in the newsagents that cost 37p. I have the shop assistant a pound note and she counted out my change - 1p, 2p that's 3p. 10p makes 50p and triumphantly and 10s' a pound! The last ten being a 10 shilling note (50p). Even after all this time, I can still get muddled between 5p and 10p pieces. I'd often hand over a 5p piece instead of 10p. But I've solved that by removing all 1p, 2p and 5p coins from my purse each evening I spend anything and put them in a plastic bag. That way I don't have to worry about 5ps. When the bag's sufficiently full I change them at a Coinmaster machine. I always state my height in feet and inches - metres for height means absolutely nothing to me. I can visualise 5 ft 2 inches, but not whatever the equivalent is in metres. Same with my weight in stones and pounds. Yet I'll quite happily buy fabric by the metre and weigh vegetables in kilograms. A 10 lb baby is huge, but a 4 kg one doesn't sound as large. It's just something my brain can't fully cope with - it's too full of other stuff! Sue wrote: 1/2d, 1d, 3d, 6d, 1/-, 2/-, 2/6, 5/-, 10/-, £1. oh and the guinea (21 shillings!!) Racehorses are still bought and sold in guineas. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com.
Re: [lace-chat] Imperial/metric
My colleague at work came back from her lunch break and said Well I gave her a ten shilling note and all I got for the change looks like a few farthings! and she held them out in her hand in disgust to show us. The other memory was in 1972 - after the official change-over period - my husband registered Emma's birth and came back with a certificate with Five Shillings printed at the bottom. I told him it wasn't legal and to take it back because she wouldn't know what shillings were when she was old enough to know about her birth certificate! He didn't but she doesn't. However, Emma now has her own business making curtains and soft furnishings and she works in both metric and imperial. She only learned metric at school and buys fabric in metres, but a lot of her older customers still think in yards, feet and inches and so she has to as well. I'm of the generation lucky enough to have learned both at school. On one occasion in junior school we measured out a the length of a cricket pitch (22 yards) with a real chain of that length. In science we used metric but in cookery and needlework it was imperial whilst in maths/geometry we used both - one or the other, not both for the same task. I can now work with either, though I have to think about conversions from one to the other. In general I think metric for small measurements, millimetres and grams, and imperial for bigger measurements, distance in miles, my weight in stones pounds and height in feet inches. I mostly cook by guessing so it's more of what it looks like than how much it weighs! Brenda On 23 Jan 2009, at 08:48, Jean Nathan wrote: The morning of the first day of metrication, I bought something in the newsagents that cost 37p. I have the shop assistant a pound note and she counted out my change - 1p, 2p that's 3p. 10p makes 50p and triumphantly and 10s' a pound! The last ten being a 10 shilling note (50p). Brenda in Allhallows, Kent http://paternoster.orpheusweb.co.uk/index.html To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com.
[lace-chat] Pounds, shillings, pence
Jacquie wrote: But that was because she was 'protected' from the real world, and your mother was willing to go along with it. If she hadn't been housebound and been doing her own shopping then she would have coped with it. I doubt it. She'd already coped with the introduction of a lot of different things in her life which she didn't understand but could accept - radio, TV, the motor car, the aeroplane, space flight. Metrication was just a step too far for her at the age of 89. Jean in Poole, Dorset, UK To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com.
Re: [lace-chat] Imperial/metric
Brenda wrote: I mostly cook by guessing so it's more of what it looks like than how much it weighs! That reminded me of just after decimalisation, when one old lady said But if they only sell butter in 250 gramme packs, I won't be able to use any of my recipes in ounces any more! I'm of that generation who learned imperial units and L.s.d. at school, had to learn to use decimal measurements and money when they were introduced, and are happily bi-lingual now. I still translate prices back to shillings and pence now, just to express my horror at the increase since I was younger - HOW much? One pound 50 pence for a cup of coffee? That used to cost 3 old pence (= a quarter of a shilling = a quarter of 5 new pence = 1.25 new pence)! All right, it's a long time since I was younger VBG - that was in the early 1960s. I buy fabric for patchwork - it's 44 inches wide, and I buy it by the metre. Margery. margerybu...@o2.co.uk in North Hertfordshire, UK To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com.
Re: [lace-chat] Imperial/metric
Jean Nathan wrote Even after all this time, I can still get muddled between 5p and 10p pieces. I'd often hand over a 5p piece instead of 10p. But I've solved that by removing all 1p, 2p and 5p coins from my purse each evening I spend anything and put them in a plastic bag. That way I don't have to worry about 5ps. When the bag's sufficiently full I change them at a Coinmaster machine I love those machines. I wouldn't use one - I begrudge handing over 10% of my money to a machine, but people often forget to pick up the change that is rejected. So each week when I do my grocery shopping I check the reject tray and often come home with a handful of small change. Malvary in Ottawa, Canada where it will be ONLY -2c today but back to -23c tomorrow and Sunday. To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com.
Re: [lace-chat] Morris Dancing: Life with Bells On
The one and only time I saw a Morris Dance group was at a car rally of British cars (imports for here! where I live), on a hot, hot day. We - cars, people, dancers - occupied a great field overlooking the sea. I thought the dancing would be a nice little entertainment, well when they were in full swing, it was quite tribal and intense. I was most impressed. Alas I can't see the video with coal-fired internet. A good sendup of Morris dance is Terry Pratchett's Black Morris (they perform in midwinter, and they are clad in black). He wrote it such that it is to be a performance unseen. (even so, fans try to perform it) -- bye for now Bev in Shirley BC near Sooke on Vancouver Island, west coast of Canada On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Avital wrote: I missed that! Guess I need to watch it again. ;-) Avital On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 9:15 PM, scotl...@aol.com wrote: The film is definitely taking the mick out of Morris dancing - and Hollywood (to a lesser extent). Did anyone look at the cast list?! To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com. To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace-chat y...@address.here. For help, write to arachnemodera...@yahoo.com.
