[lace] Lacemaker's dog?

[H M Clarke]

I am still trying to work out what specific needs a lacemaker had that would 
end up with a dog breed especially for them. Were the key lacemaking areas 
popular with bulldog breeders who could provide the runts of the litters? I 
also can't imagine someone working hard on their lace would want to be letting 
a dog out or taking it for a walk. Then there would be the challenges with 
females of the breed. Also, even if there were a specific need, would 
lacemakers provide a big enough market?

It would seem as likely that the runts would end up as ship dogs and have made 
their way to France in that way. There were far more ships and boats crossing 
the channel than lacemakers. The dogs could have been exchanged, as some exotic 
and rare breed, for cognac or perfume.

I am sure that this breed can be ideal as a companion and I am delighted that 
some of you have discovered that for yourselves. I would suggest that there are 
plenty of other breeds (or mongrels) that would be equally appropriate. 
Breeding a dog that is a great companion is a lot better than the cosmetic 
desires some breeders have today and which are threatening the future of many 
dogs. 

Just my tuppence worth ...

Regards, Helen. 

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[lace] Magazines

[lizlace]

I received the Needle ‘n’ Thread magazine of the Guild of Needlelaces this
morning. I have not had a chance to read it yet – That is a bedtime treat!!

However, I have not had the Lace Guild magazine yet – and I have not heard
of any other Aussie getting  it either, so it looks like we will have to wait
a bit longer, for the Postal service to  get them sorted and delivered!

But having been the one to ask if we could be told when the magazines start
circulating, I thought I better mention the Needlelace one!!

Regards from Liz in warm, sunny Melbourne, Oz.

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

Lorelei,
I agree completely. I have never read anywhere that the lace made in
Buckingham in 1750 was point ground. What made me pause on this article was
that Mr. Heathcoat supposedly learned to make lace from the Buckingham lace
makers around 1753 and imitated the point ground on his Loughborough
machine. But the machine was not made until 1809, and we know that point
ground was made before that. So could he have tried, unsuccessfully, to
imitate other grounds, like Mechlin, earlier? and not until the point
ground was made by hand could he make it by machine? Also, we have no idea
what background Mr. Smiles had for writing his article in 1859.
As usual, more questions than answers.
-
​Karen​

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Lorelei Halley]

Karen

The problem is that we don’t know what the lace made in Buckingham in 1753
looked like. Our discussion of names of laces has pointed out that some names
refer to geographic regions but have nothing to do with the structure created
or the techniques used. We need some kind of external evidence of what that
lace looked like.

Lorelei



From: Karen Thompson [mailto:karenhthomp...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 7:27 PM
To: Lorelei Halley 
Cc: devonth...@gmail.com; Nancy Neff ; Arachne

Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

Thank you for the comments on the point ground. Hopefully there will be
more. As Devon and Lorelei say, it makes sense that due to fashion changes
in the late 1700s to much simpler and lighter laces and clothes in general,
the point ground provided a lighter background for the motifs. At the same
time it was also quicker to make.
Point ground is also the ground that was imitated on the early twist net
lace machines. By looking online I found this when searching for John
Heathcoat, lace machine.
http://victorianweb.org/technology/inventors/heathcoat.html Here we can
read that John Heathcoat at the age of 21, in 1753, 'laboured to compass
the contrivance of a twist traverse-net machine. He first studied the art
of making the Buckingham or pillow-lace by hand, with the object of
effecting the same motions by mechanical means'. From Samuel Smile's
Self-Help (1859). If this is true, lace makers in Buckingham made point
ground lace in 1753. It would be great to ascertain this from other
sources. Mr Heathcoat's fist successful lace machine making bobbin net was
set up in 1809.
-Karen

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[lace] dogs & lace

[Rick & Sharon Whiteley]

One last thought on dogs and lace makers.  Perhaps their purpose wasn’t
entirely as pets but maybe they were foot warmers.  There was a time when
small dogs were allowed in church for that very purpose. Sharon on Vancouver
Island

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[lace] Dog patterns

[H M Clarke]

Thank you all for your wonderful replies to my question about dog patterns. A 
good friend, who is also owner and training director of my dog's daycare and 
school, is going through an increasingly difficult time. I thought it would be 
good to make her a small something. 

Given my own health challenges I am not sure what I would be able to achieve 
hence my including blackwork in my question. I suspect that I would use your 
suggestions as input and then make it up as I go along which has always been my 
preferred method. For any of you remember my infamous survey last year, I have 
zero visualisation ability so I do need a starting point. I will keep looking. 

Regards, Helen 

(Suffering from a cold while sitting on the beach on the west coast of mainland 
Canada)

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Lorelei Halley]

I agree with Devon
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
devonth...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:33 PM
To: Nancy Neff ; Karen Thompson
; Arachne 
Subject: RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

Dear Karen,
It would not seem that it would be that hard to find out something like
this, yet I have been looking in my books for confirmation of my gut feeling
about it, and am surprised at how difficult it is to verify.
My gut feeling is that it arose in the last two decades of the 18th century
when the motifs had shrunk to teeny tiny little flowers and borders.

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Lorelei Halley]

Karen
I understand your question. My impression is also that point ground began in
the late 1700s. We have paintings of Empress Josephine wearing lace of a
style similar to these. Laces with that style sometimes used point ground
and sometimes Mechlin ground. Once we get past that style Mechlin ground
disappears, until the Revival Era around 1900. This page in my website has
photos of laces from Josephine's time.
http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlacenapoleonic.html 
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/17/6b/9c/176b9c555e136a1c3978207c1
654467b.jpg 

Most of the motivation for inventing point ground was that it is faster to
work than Mechlin or kat stitch. And that motivation goes with the world of
the 1800s
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of
Karen Thompson
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 2:36 PM
To: Arachne 
Subject: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about
Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation can
continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date
(approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come
is late in the 1700s.  

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Bobbi Donnelly]

Karen, we found the same thing with the Tønder samples.
Many of the museum samples had been actually glued to
boards at some point! One piece in particular that was only
about 1/2 " wide by about 5 " long measured 5 different angles!
So it's really hard to determine what the 'real' angles might have been.
I would love to see what you come up with though on the
point ground issue!
Take care and talk to you soon.
bobbi

-Original Message- 
From: Karen Thompson

Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 5:55 PM
To: Nancy Neff
Cc: Arachne
Subject: Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

The angles of the samples are anywhere from about 33 to 68, sometimes in
the same piece! Some of this might be due to distortion of the samples
between being made in 1789 and being mounted on acid-free board in the
1970s or 1980s at the Library of Congress. Or the prickings might have been
distorted by having been copied a number of times - or from the snippet of
lace they made the pricking from.
-Karen 


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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

The angles of the samples are anywhere from about 33 to 68, sometimes in
the same piece! Some of this might be due to distortion of the samples
between being made in 1789 and being mounted on acid-free board in the
1970s or 1980s at the Library of Congress. Or the prickings might have been
distorted by having been copied a number of times - or from the snippet of
lace they made the pricking from.
-Karen

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RE: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[devonthein]

Dear Karen,
It would not seem that it would be that hard to find out something like this,
yet I have been looking in my books for confirmation of my gut feeling about
it, and am surprised at how difficult it is to verify.
My gut feeling is that it arose in the last two decades of the 18th century
when the motifs had shrunk to teeny tiny little flowers and borders.
In looking for this, the first problem is that the term “point ground”
does not come up in my various identification and history books. Instead I am
substituting Tulle, Lille, fond simple and fond clair.
Regarding Lille, Gwyne, The Illustrated Dictionary of Lace, says, “A
continuous bobbin lace with a Fond Simple ground (Bobbin Ground C, page. 198),
adopted from late C18. A larger mesh was used from 1803. The Cloth stitch
designs were outlined with coarse flat gimp. The toile of the laces in C 18
was mainly gimp, with very little cloth stitch in the design.
There is more, but, interestingly part of it reads, “The laces of
Buckinghamshire, England, are thought to have been copies of Lille designs and
technique, brought to England by refugees. The difference between these two
laces is not easy to detect, but the Lille deisgns are smaller than tose of
Buckinghamshire, and possibly a fraction more “finger like”. Nevertheless
they are virtually indistinguishable.”
Devon

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[lace] Re: Merletto a Fuselli-Note de storia e materiali d'archivio

[Carolinadgg]

Scuola di Merletti Gorizia - Regione Autonoma Friuli Venezia Giulia
Edizione della Laguna ISBN 88-8345-098-1

I think remember to have bought the book to http://www.tombolodisegni.it/

Carolina de la Guardia
www.carolgallego.com


> El 16 feb 2017, a las 23:01,  
escribió:
>
> Carolina wrote: On the book "Merletto a Fuselli"  -Note de storia e
materiali d'archivio- tells about the cultural relation between the Lace
School of Gorizia with others Schools in Viena, Eslovenia, Praga and Germany
before the First World 's War.
>
> This sounds like a very interesting book. Does anyone know how I can obtain
a copy? Also, from researching this, it seems that there may be two editions.
Are they the same?
>
> Devon
>
>
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>

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Re: [lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Nancy Neff]

Hi Karen,

What are the angles of the grounds in the Ipswich lace samples?

Nancy
Connecticut, USA

On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Karen Thompson 
wrote:

> It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about
> Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation
> can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date
> (approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come
> is late in the 1700s.  Of the 22 Ipswich lace samples made in Massachusetts
> between 1789 and 1790 and preserved at the Library of Congress, only one of
> them employ point ground, and that is as a filling. Most of the grounds are
> Paris ground/Kat stitch or some version of Torchon, including honeycomb. My
> guess is that point ground was fairly new, but one of the lace makers
> figured out how to make it from a snippet of imported lace.  Any help will
> be greatly appreciated.
>
> -Karen  - usually in Washington, DC or Delaware
>
> -
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> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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>

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[lace] Merletto a Fuselli-Note de storia e materiali d'archivio

[devonthein]

Carolina wrote: On the book "Merletto a Fuselli"  -Note de storia e materiali
d'archivio- tells about the cultural relation between the Lace School of
Gorizia with others Schools in Viena, Eslovenia, Praga and Germany before the
First World 's War.

This sounds like a very interesting book. Does anyone know how I can obtain a
copy? Also, from researching this, it seems that there may be two editions.
Are they the same?

Devon


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[lace] Lace: Point ground laces

[Karen Thompson]

It is with great interest that I have followed the conversations about
Mechlin, Valenciennes, Binche, etc. and am wondering if the conversation
can continue with point ground. So far, I have not been able to find a date
(approximate) for the start of point ground laces. The closest I have come
is late in the 1700s.  Of the 22 Ipswich lace samples made in Massachusetts
between 1789 and 1790 and preserved at the Library of Congress, only one of
them employ point ground, and that is as a filling. Most of the grounds are
Paris ground/Kat stitch or some version of Torchon, including honeycomb. My
guess is that point ground was fairly new, but one of the lace makers
figured out how to make it from a snippet of imported lace.  Any help will
be greatly appreciated.

-Karen  - usually in Washington, DC or Delaware

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Re: [lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[cadega2]

Definitely this piece is not the style of Hinojosa lace. 
As I privately commented to Devon, Hinojosa is a continuous tape lace without 
grounds nor fillings between tapes.
The Saxony piece is a part tape lace worked with clothstitch. There are drawn 
some spaces between tapes that are filled with "vermicellos". The vermicello is 
a little tape which is worked making little rings that seem holes, coming back 
on itself again and again until the space is filled. It is also called 
"occhiolino tipo serpentino" . There are in Italia pieces completely made with 
this stitch, especially in the North.
On the book "Merletto a Fuselli"  -Note de storia e materiali d'archivio- tells 
about the cultural relation between the Lace School of Gorizia with others 
Schools in Viena, Eslovenia, Praga and Germany before the First World 's War.
So  it is not a nonsense thinking in the possiblity of a piece with some common 
features

Greetings from Barcelona. Spain.

Carolina de la Guardia


> El 16 feb 2017, a las 18:40, Malvary Cole  escribió:
> 
> The other vermicelli lace not mentioned, which has no holes and where the 
> cloth stitch goes right to the edges is hinohosa from Spain.
> 
> Just another thought to be put in the mix.
> 
> Malvary in Ottawa where we have had about 50cm of snow since Sunday, but not 
> as badly hit as the Maritimes.  Nice sunny day (well it was when I started 
> this message), and allegedly +7 temperature for Sunday.
> 
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[lace] Lace dogs, migration

[Jane Partridge]

The reference to lacemakers moving to Normandy possibly relates to the machine 
lacemakers. After trouble with Luddites in Loughborough then Nottingham, John 
Heathcote moved his bobbinet factory to Devon, and from there machines were 
smuggled (after being stripped down to smaller parts) to Calais - workers later 
migrated to Australia. There are tales of dogs being used to aid the smuggling 
of lace from France to England, and it struck me that a small dog like this 
breed would be a likely candidate.   There was some movement from France to 
England due to religious persecution but this, I think, was in the late 16th 
and early 17th centuries, much earlier than the impression I got of when the 
dogs were popular. The late Dr John Yallop dispelled a lot of the myths 
surrounding the religious migrants in his History of the Honiton Lace Industry, 
having done what a lot of the lace 'historians' didn't do and checked primary 
evidence.

Jane Partridge 

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Re: [lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[Malvary Cole]

The other vermicelli lace not mentioned, which has no holes and where the 
cloth stitch goes right to the edges is hinohosa from Spain.


Just another thought to be put in the mix.

Malvary in Ottawa where we have had about 50cm of snow since Sunday, but not 
as badly hit as the Maritimes.  Nice sunny day (well it was when I started 
this message), and allegedly +7 temperature for Sunday.


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[lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[devonthein]

Sorry, in my haste I sent this from the AOL and not the gmail account.
Devon

Many thanks to all those who are helping me with the puzzle of the Saxony
lace. I have received some very insightful replies, both privately and
publicly.
Some themes emerge. Bohemia is a confusing concept, geographically and
culturally.
Several people, Jean, and Leonard, tended to identify the lace as resembling
photographs that several books called Russian lace. Undoubtedly there are
similarities with Russian lace, for instance the floral subtext. Russian lace
itself changes over time taking on dramatically different appearances. One
thing that sort of bothers me about calling this piece Russian lace (in
medium) is that Russian lace often has a much more airy appearance, even
though it is also a tape lace that rambles around the way this one does. The
fact that the linen stitch is spread out as close to the edge of the tape as
possible and there are no decorative tapes seems to be a feature. One sees
this on Czech lace on ethnic costumes.
Lorelei focused more on the loopty-lous as I call them, but Carolina would
call them Vermicelli. This term Vermicelli also appears in Palliser. Another
term I think I have seen is occhiolini, which I believe translates to eyelet.
But this term or one like it (occhiwork) also seems to apply to tatting as
Alex’s Illustrated Dictionary of Lacemaking defines it that way. Lorelei was
kind enough to provide an entire history of laces going back in time with this
feature. Most interesting was the role it played in the development of what
would later become raised work in point d’Angleterre and Honiton. However,
most of the use of the vermicelli seems to be a specialty of Italian and
Eastern European lacemakers, at least that is my impression.
This feature, the vermicelli, is one that gives me pause also about putting
such a piece in the category of Russian lace. Ilske thinks it is very
characteristic of Czech lace. In fact, I am wondering if the term “Church”
lace was a mistaken transcription of Czech lace. Back then a lot of things
were originally handwritten and not always as clearly as one might hope.
High marks to Leonard for his memory of the work of Mincoff and Marriage. Here
the subject of Saxony lace is addressed head on, and the date of the work,
1907 corresponds directly to the date when the piece arrived in the
collection, 1908. Sadly, the examples given do not resemble the piece at all.
But, double word score for Leonard, for having found a reference to making
Mechlin in Turnhout! (However, one may interpret the word Mechlin in this
context!)
I am wondering if Czech lace can be considered a “medium” or style in
itself.
Devon




Sent from Mail for Windows 10


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Re: [lace] Lace dog (French Bulldogs)

[Jeriames]

Is this an unfortunate example of how lace history becomes  distorted?
 
The history associated with the French bulldogs, as explained in the second 
 web site, seems to be mis-leading.  French lacemakers fled to  England, 
because of religious persecution against non-Catholics in France.   Was there 
a reverse migration to Normandy?  If not, please regard the  article as a 
fairy tale ... and perhaps someone should tell the author of  
spencermanbullies, once we have hashed out the real history?  
 
Here is the questionable quote:  There is more than one theory  about how 
exactly the French bulldog originated in France.  The most  accepted theory 
is that when Normandy lace makers from England (sic) moved to  France to find 
work, they took smaller bulldogs along.  These small dogs  were actually 
rejects of the bulldog's breeders in England.
 
Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center  

 
In a message dated 2/15/2017 2:04:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
nhsmo...@cox.net writes:

While  watching the Westminster Dog Show they talked about a dog that was  
the
lacemakers dog. Please  see:
https://www.petcha.com/life-with-a-frenchie/
And
http://spencermanbullies.tripod.com/history-of-the-frenchie.html

Charlotte  in Georgia USA

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[lace] Saxony Lace-Czech?

[dmt11home]

Many thanks to all those who are helping me with the puzzle of the Saxony
lace. I have received some very insightful replies, both privately and
publicly.
Some themes emerge. Bohemia is a confusing concept, geographically and
culturally.
Several people, Jean, and Leonard, tended to identify the lace as resembling
photographs that several books called Russian lace. Undoubtedly there are
similarities with Russian lace, for instance the floral subtext. Russian lace
itself changes over time taking on dramatically different appearances. One
thing that sort of bothers me about calling this piece Russian lace (in
medium) is that Russian lace often has a much more airy appearance, even
though it is also a tape lace that rambles around the way this one does. The
fact that the linen stitch is spread out as close to the edge of the tape as
possible and there are no decorative tapes seems to be a feature. One sees
this on Czech lace on ethnic costumes.
Lorelei focused more on the loopty-lous as I call them, but Carolina would
call them Vermicelli. This term Vermicelli also appears in Palliser. Another
term I think I have seen is occhiolini, which I believe translates to eyelet.
But this term or one like it (occhiwork) also seems to apply to tatting as
Alex’s Illustrated Dictionary of Lacemaking defines it that way. Lorelei was
kind enough to provide an entire history of laces going back in time with this
feature. Most interesting was the role it played in the development of what
would later become raised work in point d’Angleterre and Honiton. However,
most of the use of the vermicelli seems to be a specialty of Italian and
Eastern European lacemakers, at least that is my impression.
This feature, the vermicelli, is one that gives me pause also about putting
such a piece in the category of Russian lace. Ilske thinks it is very
characteristic of Czech lace. In fact, I am wondering if the term “Church”
lace was a mistaken transcription of Czech lace. Back then a lot of things
were originally handwritten and not always as clearly as one might hope.
High marks to Leonard for his memory of the work of Mincoff and Marriage. Here
the subject of Saxony lace is addressed head on, and the date of the work,
1907 corresponds directly to the date when the piece arrived in the
collection, 1908. Sadly, the examples given do not resemble the piece at all.
But, double word score for Leonard, for having found a reference to making
Mechlin in Turnhout! (However, one may interpret the word Mechlin in this
context!)
I am wondering if Czech lace can be considered a “medium” or style in
itself.
Devon




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[lace] Lace Dogs

[b...@historichousehunter.com]

Hi,

Just to set the story straight, I actually have a Lacemakers' dog, a French
Bulldog. I was raised with dogs, and adore them, but this is my first French
Bulldog, and she's definitely the best breed I've ever had! I've even gotten
her certified as a therapy dog because she has such a wonderful personality
and demeanor. Here's her photo:

Frankie sits next to me every day while I make lace, sleeping peacefully and
not bothering me or my bobbins at all.  I believe that's what happened in the
19th century--either the lacemakers had them next to them on a wide chair or
at their feet in a small bed or soft rug--not in their laps. As far as their
hair goes, they barely shed at all, and their extremely short hair can easily
get tweezers out with fingernails if any were to get in my lace. My Frankie is
young, so she is intriguing by my small, colorful pin cushions, however, and
has gotten a hold of them and left a trail of pins in my living room twice
now.

Two weekends ago was my group's Lace Day (Lost Art Lacers of Northern NJ). I
like Frankie so well that I wanted to "share" her with all of the lacemakers.
I asked if I could bring her to the second day, which was the class day, and
no one had a problem with it. She came for about two hours, and was a
perfectly behaved little lady. All of the group loved her and enjoyed meeting
an actual example of a historic Lacemakers' dog!

Beth Harpell, from New Jersey--where it's supposed to snow tonight (again)...

Charlotte wrote:
While watching the Westminster Dog Show they talked about a dog that was the
lacemakers dog. Please see:
https://www.petcha.com/life-with-a-frenchie/
And
http://spencermanbullies.tripod.com/history-of-the-frenchie.html

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