Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Brenda Paternoster]

My 1973 edition of the 1954 book “The Modern Textile & Apparel Dictionary
by Professor George E Linton published in USA  (He was a textiles teacher and
Dean of the textile department of Fashion Institute in New York) at describes
a skein as “an appreciable length of yarn or thread that has been wound onto
a reel or swift… the circumference of a skein varies, usually from 44 inches
to 54 inches…..

That is describing a skein as being in the same format a s a hank.  He does
not mention the centre pull rolls, balls, cakes etc, but it does now seem to
be common parlance in USA to describe centre pull balls as skeins.  In UK the
work skein is used more often for the small coils of embroidery cottons which
if you are very careful with it’s possible to pull a length without taking
the label off.  That’s how language evolves.

Or ask my husband, he would say it’s a group of flying geese!

Brenda


> On 7 Nov 2015, at 04:44,  
wrote:
>
> As we started getting more varieties of yarns, we got more varieties of
shapes of skeins.  We have balls (some but not all allowing center-pull),
hanks (the English skein, I guess), cones (those used to be for weavers),
'cakes' (short cylinders, diameter greater than length) and what-not.  My
experience is that 'skein' refers to the fact that there is a specific
quantity of yarn gathered together in an orderly shape, and the other terms
refer to the shape of the skein.  Even hand-spun and other non-commercial or
boutique yarns can be in 'skeins' usually in the shape of hanks or cakes.
This would be because ball-winders make cakes and swifts make hanks, and those
are the most commonly-available machines for winding skeins.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[robinlace]

 Brenda Paternoster  wrote: 
Julie, it’s not clear what is meant by ‘skein’  I know from the
knitting/crochet forum Ravelery that there is a lot of confusion about that
word.  To me, in UK, a skein means a small hank, but a lot of Americans seem
to use the work skein to mean a centre-pull machine wound ball.


Back in the 1950s, nearly all knitting yarn came in elongate cylinders, about 
12" (30 cm) long and 3" (7-8 cm) wide.  Finer yarns made smaller cylinders but 
they were proportioned about the same.  Those were called 'skeins'.  Many 
cheaper yarns still come in that form.  You had to fish around inside to find 
the end of the yarn that was supposed to be used, and leave the label around 
the skein until it collapsed from loss of 'innards'.

As we started getting more varieties of yarns, we got more varieties of shapes 
of skeins.  We have balls (some but not all allowing center-pull), hanks (the 
English skein, I guess), cones (those used to be for weavers), 'cakes' (short 
cylinders, diameter greater than length) and what-not.  My experience is that 
'skein' refers to the fact that there is a specific quantity of yarn gathered 
together in an orderly shape, and the other terms refer to the shape of the 
skein.  Even hand-spun and other non-commercial or boutique yarns can be in 
'skeins' usually in the shape of hanks or cakes.  This would be because 
ball-winders make cakes and swifts make hanks, and those are the most 
commonly-available machines for winding skeins.

Robin P.
Los Angeles, California, USA
robinl...@socal.rr.com

Parvum leve mentes capiunt
(Little things amuse little minds)

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[AGlez]

 ​​Hello Julie​
​ and those interested in making the scarf by Brigitte Bellon,​



​
I wonder why I had no problem making those prickings but for the scarf
prickings I had so much trouble getting them to fit together?

​Because you must observe carefully the pattern and watch how much part of
the pattern is repeated. In the case of this shawl you are making, the
repeats are clearly marked with an arrow on the side, so you should not
have problems at all. One arrow is on the left ​and the final one on the
right. But... as you can observe, one pattern does not fit with the other
if you do not turn it. This is the only trick, if we can call it so.



> ​...​
> I will try again to use only three parts instead of four.  It did seem to
> me that three SHOULD have worked and now you've said that you do it with
> three!
>
> ​Yes, one part is the beginning and the end. And two parts are the
central
repeat (same repeat, same pattern). You have to change them in the bolster
pillow. Once you are halfway the second pricking, the first one will be
free of pins, and you must add it to the end of the one you are working on,
and so on

So I think I put in the top fringe as I start the scarf, although I don't
> put it in all at the same time.  The instructions say that first I work the
> top left triangular region of the scarf and then I turn it and work down.
> So it will be a while before every one of the top footside pins are reached
> and worked.  Is that what you mean by saying that I don't make the fringe
> all at once?
>

​
​Look carefully at the instructions on how to make the fringe in the book
​ and how to work the scarf in general.


At the beginning, you
​will have to work
 a little piece of fringe
​ (the first triangle​
, where the numbers of pairs are printed
​)​
.
​Then you must turn the pillow and work the rest of the top footside. Here
you can choose to work the remaining fringe, by working the worker out of
the edge pin... but I chose to work a normal footedge and add the fringe at
the end with a crochet hook.


Another observation: take care with the sides of the scarf: you are working
the scarf in horizontal stripes (except the little triangle that serves to
change direction). When you start working horizontally, you have to leave 3
pairs waiting in the border for the footside, which are not worked in the
horizontal lines.

Hope you manage well. I am sure once you get working, you will see that it
is not complicated and a real pleasure to work.


Best wishes,

Antje in Spain.
www.vueltaycruz.es

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Brenda Paternoster]

Julie, it’s not clear what is meant by ‘skein’  I know from the
knitting/crochet forum Ravelery that there is a lot of confusion about that
word.  To me, in UK, a skein means a small hank, but a lot of Americans seem
to use the work skein to mean a centre-pull machine wound ball.  If your skein
is in the form of a loose coil or hank then you most certainly do need to wind
it into a ball before you try to use it - for BL, for knitting, for crochet or
any other use.  If you try to use it directly you will soon learn why you
shouldn’t; it will sooner or later end up in a tangled mess.

If it’s an oval ball shape ‘skein’ you can use it directly from the ball
and you can pull from the inside or the outside according to your personal
preference.

Brenda
>
> I don't think the instruction is exactly that I must never wind bobbins
> directly from skein. I think the instruction is that whenever I use a skein
I
> must spread it out totally, not let it bunch up, and I put something in the
> center so stop the loops of yard from merging. So: a chair back, an arm and
a
> foot, two feet. So if I want to just pull yarn out without giving the
matter
> any thought I need to wind the yarn into a ball.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[AGlez]

Hello Julie,

You need 3 pieces of the pattern: 1. the beginning and the end, which is
one same pattern. 2. Two central parts or repeats, which are indicated with
arrows.

You only need to add the central parts one to the other as you go. That is,
once you reach the beginning of the second pattern, you will have the first
pattern free of pins, and can add it at the bottom again. And so until you
decide to finish and add the ending pattern.

It is complicated to explain, but you need to have all this clear before
you start working.

You must also observe that that pattern does not indicate you to make all
the fringe at once. But you can also do the whole fringe in the end, adding
the fringe with a crochet hook. The pattern is very well explained. Look at
it carefully and you will see everything matches perfectly.


Good luck!!

Antje
​González, in ​Spain.
www.vueltaycruz.es

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[lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Janice Blair]

Julie,
Instead of worrying about the length of the fringe, can't you  start the
scarf with a straight edge and then add the fringe when it is all finished. It
is easy enough to use a crochet hook to loop the fringe onto the edge.
I presume that you are going to make three pieces of lace and join them
together for the full width. When I made my large scarf, I made a wide roller
to use down the center of my 24" block pillow so that I could work the full
width at the same time.  I was concerned I would run out of silk thread
before I completed the third piece which was why I made it all at the same
time. I just had enough.Janice

 Janice Blair Murrieta, CA, www.jblace.com 

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Bev Walker]

Hi Julie, Brenda and everyone

An umbrella swift is good to hold a skein for winding directly onto a
bobbin (spool, shuttle) :)

It is possible to wind from a skein without a swift, or a willing pair of
arms to hold the skein for you. Place the skein on a flat surface, place
weights opposite each other within the skein so it is made taut, and
carefully wind off what is needed.

For a precise amount per bobbin e.g. for large-grid projects, commercially
prepared skeins are usually wound by the yard or metre. Measure once around
to find the unit. Mark the beginning of the round in some way and count the
passes as you wind it off.

As Brenda mentioned, ravelry does use 'skein' to refer to the commercial
put-up unit of a yarn, whether it is a ball, cone or skein.

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Brenda Paternoster <
paternos...@appleshack.com> wrote:

> ...  If you try to use it directly you will soon learn why you
> shouldn’t; it will sooner or later end up in a tangled mess.
>
> > I don't think the instruction is exactly that I must never wind bobbins
> > directly from skein.
>
>
--
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Bespokethreadsandyarns]

For very fine yarns such as used in bobbin lace, umbrella swifts are not the 
best. Towards the end of ending off, the skein may drop leaving a tangled mess. 
Instead a skein winder (not a ball winder) such as used on charkas work well.  
I use that type for silks, fine cottons and linens. 

Sue M, Master Handspinner

> On Nov 4, 2015, at 22:51, Bev Walker  wrote:
> 
> Hi Julie, Brenda and everyone
> 
> An umbrella swift is good to hold a skein for winding directly onto a
> bobbin (spool, shuttle) :)
> 
> It is possible to wind from a skein without a swift, or a willing pair of
> arms to hold the skein for you. Place the skein on a flat surface, place
> weights opposite each other within the skein so it is made taut, and
> carefully wind off what is needed.
> 
> For a precise amount per bobbin e.g. for large-grid projects, commercially
> prepared skeins are usually wound by the yard or metre. Measure once around
> to find the unit. Mark the beginning of the round in some way and count the
> passes as you wind it off.
> 
> As Brenda mentioned, ravelry does use 'skein' to refer to the commercial
> put-up unit of a yarn, whether it is a ball, cone or skein.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Brenda Paternoster <
> paternos...@appleshack.com> wrote:
> 
>> ...  If you try to use it directly you will soon learn why you
>> shouldn’t; it will sooner or later end up in a tangled mess.
>> 
>>> I don't think the instruction is exactly that I must never wind bobbins
>>> directly from skein.
> --
> Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
> Canada
> 
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Re: [lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[Bev Walker]

LOL, I respectfully disagree. When I use silk 120/2, also Treenway, my
umbrella swift is like having a third hand. The skein itself has enough
thread to last a lifetime or three of bobbin lacing. It is sold as weaving
yarn, for those who like doing projects at 40 ends per inch.
If the swift is secure, a skein shouldn't drop, unless the skein itself was
poorly wound. Or if it does loosen in the process, that is just something
to watch for.

I also use the swift for winding bobbins from skeins of embroidery floss.
This saves me a lot of headache as I don't have the knack for pulling a
length from the folded skein - now *that* makes a tangled mess in my hands.

Admittedly, winding bobbins from a spool is a lot less fuss than from a
skein on an umbrella swift. We do what we can with what we have.
I don't have a skein winder but I do like using the niddy-noddy, good for
winding small skeins of bobbin lace threads for dyeing projects.

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 9:42 PM, Bespokethreadsandyarns <
bespokethreadsandya...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For very fine yarns such as used in bobbin lace,

-- 
Bev in Shirley BC, near Sooke on beautiful Vancouver Island, west coast of
Canada

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[lace] Multi-part prickings tricky; skeins also tricky

[jsyzygy]

I'd like to make a lace scarf because why not? I've never made a lace scarf
before. I'm using a design from Brigitte Bellon's Kloppelmuster fur Schals und
Tischlaufer

Last Saturday morning I decided to devote the weekend to prep work--making a
pricking and winding bobbins. The day before I had gone to the photocopy store
and made 6 photocopies of the design (at 120% size; thanks for the spiderly
advice). I thought that was an excessive amount to make, but I wanted to have
piles in order to make sure I didn't have to make another trip to the
photocopy store. As it turned out, I ended up using all six. I barely had
enough.

I thought making the pricking would be easy. So I just went and cut the
pricking templates from the photocopies. The templates didn't fit together. I
tried again more carefully. They still didn't fit. Realizing that I apparently
couldn't just sit down and start cutting, I got out a piece of paper and
carefully wrote down what I was doing. This resolved the problem. However,
even armed with a working planI still managed to mess up one more attempt
before finally getting templates that worked.

Here's what I found out when I wrote things down: for a scarf, I need a
beginning pricking, an end pricking, and two middle prickings for vamping the
yardage in the middle. I want the two middle prickings to be identical because
that is more aesthetic and also so I don't have to decide ahead of time
whether my scarf will use an even or odd number of middle repeats. It looks
like the book wants me to use the same part of the design for both beginning
or ending (a little hard to tell since the book is in German and I can't read
German), so I just need one pricking for beginning and end both. So here is
what I start with, when the prickings are all laid in order next to each
other:
start--middle1--middle2--end
XX-- XX -- XX -- XX The "X" represent the unknown left and right edges of the
prickings.
Now I start cutting. I cut out the right edge of the start pricking. Call that
edge A: XA -- XX -- XX -- XX
Now since the start has to interlock with the middle, the left edge of the
middle pricking is determined. Call B the edge that interlocks with A, and
remember that the two middles are identical: XA -- BX -- BX -- XX.
Now the two middles have to interlock and the left edge is B so the right edge
must be A again: XA -- BA -- BA -- XX
Now the ending has to interlock with the middle so it must be B: XA -- BA --
BA -- BX
Ta-da! So the start and the ends have different edges. I can't use the same
pricking for both start and end. Or more accurately, I can both use the same
pricking for start and end and also use the same pricking for both middles.
Either the middles are different or the start and ends are different. I think
with some thought maybe I could have figured out how to make A=B, like maybe
if I maybe the edge absolutely straight instead of wavy, and then I could have
made both the middles be the same and reuse the same pricking for start and
end. I'm happy enough with separate prickings for start and end.

I usually use the insides of cereal boxes for prickings. I cut up the cereal
box, tape the photocopy on the box, prick, remove the photocopy, and with
colored pens draw in the pricking markings. However, because this is my
SPECIAL scarf lace project, the first scarf I have ever attempted I went for
the fancy-schmancy blue prickings. I laid the photocopy onto blue cardstock
and then covered both with sticky (on the bottom) transparent bluish plastic
cover, so that the photocopy was sealed onto the cardstock. I didn't put any
additional markings on the prickings (the photocopy already had markings) but
if I had wanted them I would have had to draw them on the photocopy before
sealing with the plastic. The prickings were so big that I used up all the
blue plastic I had had lying around unsused from many years ago. I'll have to
remember to buy more form my bobbin lace supplier.

After finally getting the prickings done (I haven't actually pricked the
second middle piece with the pricker, but I don't need that to start the scarf
so I can do it at my leisure) I started on bobbin winding. The scarf design
has a trick to it so I only need 24 pairs of bobbins even though the scarf is
three times that wide so you would expect it to need 72 pairs (much thanks to
spider Antje for pointing that out to me BEFORE I started winding bobbins!).
Many, many hours later I'd gone through a skein and a half and had wound 18
pairs. That night, Sunday night by now, as I put my stuff away an unexpected
old fragment of memory from many years ago drifted to the surface of mind.
Back then I spent a few months learning how to weave. I suddenly remembered
that my how-to-weave class spent a fair amount of time teaching us not to
dress a loom directly from the yarn skein. So on Monday I searched the
internet and found lots of posts from knitting sites emphatically instructing
that you should never knit directly from a skein (also