Re: [lace] Names
I agree with you Devon, in that > > In the case of Bedfordshire, > On a basic level it is a guipure bobbin lace, which was made in many places > and at many times. But, Bedfordshire, whether made in Bedfordshire or > elsewhere, tends to imply a stylistic aspect, sort of a mid 19th century lace > inclined to have roses in it, or possibly paisleys. and how I understood Mr. Lester react of new things like a new and strange animal at London zoo and so on. The lace shows in a way the feeling of the society. Ilske - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] names
Devon I think you are right. But I would say that a lace name should include both technique and structure, but also style. A structural definition of Beds and Cluny would be very similar - a guipure straight lace, held together mostly by braids. But stylistically they are quite different. And, of course, there are also differences in specific techniques. (Techniques meaning specific solutions to specific problems, for instance, how to connect a braid/plait to a cloth spot, or how to bring braids/plaits into or out of a cloth trail. And to complicate things further, actual historic laces may show both the Cluny method and the Beds method used in the same lace!!!) So as modern lace makers we typically use a geographical name as a code for all those 3 things - structure, techniques and style. Cluny is fairly easy to describe in words. It is a guipure (braid based) straight lace with geometric designs, and it may have a cloth trail. My personal habit is to use a different name, "continental straight lace", for those pieces which have pictorial elements to the design, such as flowers and leaves, or figures. That is a term that Doris Southard used, and I learned it from her. I don't know enough to reliably distinguish "continental straight laces" by their geographic origin. Such were made in France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Denmark and Sweden. The Danish and Swedish ones are very similar and I can't reliably distinguish them. Purely geometric Cluny may have a French name, but it also probably has no specific geographic referent (except to specify "not made in England". Bedfordshire is a lot harder to describe in words, although it is absolutely clear and distinct visually. A guipure braid/plait based straight lace which often has a cloth trail, and sometimes subsidiary cloth trails. It may have cloth spots (spiders), and leaves or flowers. Even the designs without naturalistic motifs have a flowing, organic character. Lorelei - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
RE: [lace] Names
Alex says, âAs it is rare to find a piece that can be traced back to its place of origin, perhaps we need to come to an agreement regarding classification by technique, bearing in mind that lacemakers did not work rigidly to a set of rules. The same technique may be found in laces made in different countries, even if only occasionally and they will cause trouble.â In the case of Bedfordshire, what would you call it if you were classifying it by technique? On a basic level it is a guipure bobbin lace, which was made in many places and at many times. But, Bedfordshire, whether made in Bedfordshire or elsewhere, tends to imply a stylistic aspect, sort of a mid 19th century lace inclined to have roses in it, or possibly paisleys. Stopping at âguipure bobbin laceâ seems to be too general. But going further is also perplexing. Devon - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Names
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2017 17:18:06 -0400 From: Susan Subject: [lace] Bedfordshire lace Hello All! While working on signage for an upcoming lace exhibit at the library, I ran into a disagreement among lace resources regarding Bedfordshire. Hi Susan and Arachnids Our Bedfordshire lace has its roots in the plaited laces, like those in Le Pompe, and it has evolved over the years â in fits & starts according to the fashion at the time. Where names are concerned you have to be very careful. In the book having the same name written by ,The Bucks. Cottage Workers Agency, dated 1911 there are illustrations of what we now call Bedfordshire labelled ,Bucks Cluny, and there is another with the label ,... one of Mrs. Armstrong,s Buckinghamshire lace Berthes ..., that is what we now consider typical Beds rose and leaf floral. It would appear that, in the past, they named the lace after the area in which it was made, not by style. As it is rare to find a piece that can be traced back to its place of origin, perhaps we need to come to an agreement regarding classification by technique, bearing in mind that lacemakers did not work rigidly to a set of rules. The same technique may be found in laces made in different countries, even if only occasionally â and they will cause trouble. I am taking acre with characters, using commas instead of apostrophes and inverted commas. Blow the dust Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] Lace names and types
Hi Arachnids I am happy to call them buffalo wings or anything you like as long as we understand each other and the implications of the words we use. Some time ago I suggested that OIDFA compiled an âObservers book of Lacesâ. Unfortunately they did not bite â too time consuming perhaps, but extensive work is definitely required in this area. Blow the dust Alex - To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line: unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/
[lace] names and place on arachne
Dee, you are not supposed to put your name anywhere when you write to your secret pal!! Only sign "Your secret Pal", not Helene, or Dee, or anything that can be recognized!! Also, use someone else's name and address on the parcels. I use my husband's name, or a friend of mine, whose permission I asked for first, of course!! Helene, the froggy from Melbourne, Australia. From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [lace] Posting to Arachne I think it is a good idea to put our names and where we come from - EXCEPT won't that give us away to our Secret Pals? Dee Palin Forest of Dean Gloucestershire Do you Yahoo!? Try Yahoo! Photomail Beta: Send up to 300 photos in one email! http://au.photomail.mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Names of "lacey" organisations
In a message dated 08/04/2005 08:59:38 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In addition to 'The Lace Guild', the UK also has 'The Lacemakers' Circle' , 'The Lace Society' and probably a couple of others I can't think of at this time of the morning. Whether or not the word 'the' is actually included in their official title, I've never heard anyone refer to them without. In none of them is the word 'the' emphasised. They'd just sound odd without it. Jean in Poole I've just pulled my copies of 'The Lacemaker' and there on the front cover is 'The Lacemakers' Circl' - this set me to thinking as I've just had to undergo literacy training at work (not because of the dire state of my literacy but it did help but because I'm coaching literacy and numeracy) anyway ... the 'The' infront of Brit groups is not an affectation, it's simply correct usage of the language. We don't talk about 'Bible' but 'The Bible' - it's just how english is worded Regards Liz in London I'm back _blogging_ (http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee) my latest lace piece - have a look by clicking on the link or going to _http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee_ (http://journals.aol.com/thelacebee/thelacebee) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Names of "lacey" organisations
Tamara wrote: ).> In 1840 Great Britain was the first country to issue postage stamps, and it's always been agreed by the rest of the world that, because of this, the name of the country doesn't appear on the stamps, just the head of the current monarch. < So Germany or the Netherlands > would have as much right to have "the" Lace Guild as UK (possibly more, > as lace was made there earlier)> In addition to 'The Lace Guild', the UK also has 'The Lacemakers' Circle' , 'The Lace Society' and probably a couple of others I can't think of at this time of the morning. Whether or not the word 'the' is actually included in their official title, I've never heard anyone refer to them without. In none of them is the word 'the' emphasised. They'd just sound odd without it. Jean in Poole - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] Re: Stumpwork (lace names)
Yes! :-D :-D :-D Yours in lacing, Beth Schoenberg --- in beautiful downtown Wanniassa, Canberra On Wednesday, September 8, 2004, at 10:42 AM, Tamara P. Duvall wrote: On Sep 7, 2004, at 14:45, Beth Schoenberg wrote: most of us, I suspect, will want to give at least a nod of recognition to the historic sources used. "Mixed lace" seems to be the term I've come across most often, describing any lace that uses two or more "pure" and distinguishable techniques. Equally, the "pure" laces - especially given that their purity is not of very long standing - could, perhaps, be called "a-retentive"? Yours, working on a pattern "in the vicinity of PG" (*very* mixed breed ) --- Tamara P Duvall http://lorien.emufarm.org/~tpd - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: Stumpwork (lace names)
On Sep 7, 2004, at 14:45, Beth Schoenberg wrote: most of us, I suspect, will want to give at least a nod of recognition to the historic sources used. "Mixed lace" seems to be the term I've come across most often, describing any lace that uses two or more "pure" and distinguishable techniques. Equally, the "pure" laces - especially given that their purity is not of very long standing - could, perhaps, be called "a-retentive"? Yours, working on a pattern "in the vicinity of PG" (*very* mixed breed ) --- Tamara P Duvall http://lorien.emufarm.org/~tpd Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) Healthy US through The No-CARB Diet: no C-heney, no A-shcroft, no R-umsfeld, no B-ush. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] pronounciation of lace names
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, lapalme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > If I'm speaking >English, and there is an English translation for the French term, I use >the English translation. Sitting here reading the thread on this, I'm thinking, as an English English person, I would say Point de Neige rather than pwan as we were taught point is pronounced in French. Then, it dawned on me, English translation... the other day we actually travelled (in the car) down a road called Whitestitch Lane. (In Meriden, for anyone in the English Midlands). Of course, Point de Neige translates literally to Snow Stitch, so maybe it answers my mused question as to what White stitch was? -- Jane Partridge - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [lace] pronounciation of lace names
> i think i 'd use both ...firt say it the *learned* way then the way > everybody in the audience can understand ... and use a little > witty phrase > to get people to smile to that *translation* > Point de neige is indeed french and means snow point by the way > > dominique from Paris .. > I'm in agreement with this idea as there is bound to be someone in the audience who knows (or thinks they know) the correct pronounciation. This way you will not be dumbing down, and you will be educating the ones who don't know, after all, as Tamara says, that's what you are therefore. Personally even though I would probably pronounce the laces incorrectly in my own way, I still like to know how they should be pronounced and also their meanings where possible, and would expect a speaker at a lace gathering to be able to educate me accordingly. If you are not confident on your accent why not write them down and may be give as a hand out at the end to any one who is interested. PS If you decide to go the handout route I wouldn't mind having a copy Best of luck Jane Portchester UK - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Pronunciation of lace names
<> If they are lacemakers I'd suggest using the French pronunciation for things like Point de Neige, because it's French. However, I'd probably pronounce Chantilly in the English/American way, for understanding, since you want them to connect the lace with the town that they will have heard of, even if they haven't heard the French pronunication of its name. On the other hand, if you normally pronounce the words in the English way when you "think" them, then perhaps it would be more natural for you to say them that way too. What a sad comment on a society that someone pronouncing foreign words correctly may be accused of being a snob... Regards, Annette, London - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names
Devon i think i 'd use both ...firt say it the *learned* way then the way everybody in the audience can understand ... and use a little witty phrase to get people to smile to that *translation* Point de neige is indeed french and means snow point by the way dominique from Paris .. [EMAIL PROTECTED] a décidé d' écrire à Ò[lace] pronounciation of lace namesÓ. [2004/09/03 15:58] How should I pronounce it for the slide > show. > If I say Point, do I sound like a boob? If I say Pwont will the audience > be so > busy puzzling out what I am saying that they will miss the rest of the > commentary? Will some people think me elitist? - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] Re: pronounciation of lace names
On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:58, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Devon) wrote: Does one approach this issue as though everyone in the audience is sophisticated enough to know the pronunciation rules of every language or does one pronounce things the way they would be pronounced in the language that you are speaking in? I tend to side with Lise-Aurore on this: if there's an English translation, use it, if there isn't, then use the original term, in the original pronounciation (or as close as you can get to it). *Unless* you're certain-sure that the term has been fully assimilated into English, and now follows the English rules of pronounciation. If I were a lace, I'd want to be known by my *proper* name (in every sense of the word), I think :) Even though, over the years, I've grown resigned to being called anything from "tomorrow" to "tomato", it doesn't mean I like it. And it drives me nuts, when people speaking in public (TV and radio announcers, for example) mangle foreign names with abandon, and don't seem to even *try* to find out how those should be pronounced. You are in a similiar position, speaking from a podium - you're there not just to inform, but to educate as well. Even if your audience isn't already familiar with the foreign pronounciation, they'll catch up soon enough (as we all caught up to Loehr's "sewer" - as in the disposal system - when she meant "needlewoman" ); they may not know French, but they're not stupid (afterall, they're lacemakers; the Mensa of crafts, no?). There's no need to "dumb down". IMO. For what it's worth, my Concise Oxford dictionary has "gros point" as "gro pwan". And it's an 1982 edition, not something Victorian or elitist. And I wouldn't worry about the blank stares signalling incomprehension, either. It's a slide show, yes? So it'll be in the dark, yes? So you won't *see* the blank stares... :^) who realizes that she doesn't even know how her own last name would be pronounced in the European country of its origin, Luxemburg. I don't even know how it (Thein) is pronounced in English I do know, however, that I was ticked off - many times - in Poland, where a lot of people "corrected" both the spelling (to Du Val) and the pronounciation of my surname (di- val, instead of doov-all). The name has been fully assimilated into American English (via the addition of the second "l"), so it should be pronounced as the natives do it. --- Tamara P Duvall http://lorien.emufarm.org/~tpd Lexington, Virginia, USA (Formerly of Warsaw, Poland) Healthy US through The No-CARB Diet: no C-heney, no A-shcroft, no R-umsfeld, no B-ush. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names
Dear Devon I love your quandary. Shrug off all the nailbiters and the obsessives, and all the experts too (!) and listen to Aurelia who has actually stood up on museum stages and spoken as follows: Rose Point: Rohz Poynt Point d'Angleterre: Poynt dahng-let-terr (yes, Poynt, that's right) Gros Point: Groh Poynt (see, we aren't French) Point de Neige: Pwont de Nezh (we're still not French, but nevermind) Chantilly: Shan Tillie Just in case Tonder creeps in, try "Turner," as we say in Baltimore No dear heart, you will never sound like a boob no matter what you say (didn't know boobs made sounds; just goes to show you) Santina Levey? Who she? - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I mostly read lace names and rarely discuss them, I tend to say Point as we say it in English. I realize that it is pronounced Pwont in French. How should I pronounce it for the slide show. Devon, I definitely see the problem. Here's the way I do it: If I'm speaking English, and there is an English translation for the French term, I use the English translation. Same in French, if there is a French translation. For example, when speaking in French, I refer to London as Londres. Why? Because otherwise, people just don't seem to understand. On the other hand, if there is no translation, then I use the original pronounciation, of the other language. If I get lots of blank stares, I stop and explain the term, then keep on using it. I guess I may be a bit more sensitive to some of this than most, because I'm French Canadian, but live and work in a bilingual society that is mainly English. You have no idea how many times my name can be anglicized in one day, and it gets frustrating. I feel like a keep on repeating myself. My first name is Lise-Aurore, but stop at Lise. Simple. Pronounced like lees. You have no idea how many times I get to say, "No Lise, not Lisa, there is no A at the end". Or, "No Lise, not Liz, it's with an se, not a z at the end". And that's just the first part of the name. Personally, I find that I understand if someone pronounces it wrong if they have only seen it in writing and never heard it, but for people who have heard the pronounciation, then I find it rather insulting when they anglicize it. So, given all that unnecessary information, I guess I'm suggesting that you use the English translation when possible, and then the French pronounciation when there is no translation. And that should be really good and confusing!!! Lise-Aurore in Ottawa, where the sun is shining and the temperature is headin to 29C - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [lace] pronounciation of lace names
Does one approach this issue as though everyone in the audience is sophisticated enough to know the pronunciation rules of every language or does one pronounce things the way they would be pronounced in the language that you are speaking in? Hi Devon: My 2 cents: This problem makes you tread carefully - I think there's a fine line between sounding knowledgeable and sounding like a pompous snob. And the pronounciation rules of every language are subject to local variance. Think about "New Orleans" vs "N'alins" and all the possibilities in between that you will get in your own country! Then, even the so-called knowledgeable people say things differently - we've already gone over the many pronunciations of Binche on this list - I think I had eight or nine at last count, and it's a one-syllable word! When I am speaking English I say the words as a speaker of English, except that I tend to use the French "pwan" rather than Point when I say French names - but in Canada most people have a few years of French schooling under their belt. If I am speaking to people who will I think may be confused by "pwan" I just say Point the English way. I rhyme Binche with pinch and let the chips fall where they may. I say Tonder with the "d". I have no trouble with you saying Rose Point and Pwan de Neige in the same sentence. I think we in North America worry more about correct pronunciation than a lot of other people. Let's get over it! I think the most important thing is to communicate what I mean, and I speak with the goal of having the people I am talking to understand me. Adele North Vancouver, BC (west coast of Canada) - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[lace] pronounciation of lace names
I am doing a slide show about lace for lacmakers, some of whom may collect, but most of whom are lacemakers. I am planning to mention in passing that a piece is Gros Point, or Point de Angleterre or Rose point or Point de Neige. In one case, I am actually saying Rose Point (rather than Point de Rose) and Point de Neige in the same sentence. Rose Point is arguably English, whereas Point de Neige is arguably French. Since I mostly read lace names and rarely discuss them, I tend to say Point as we say it in English. I realize that it is pronounced Pwont in French. How should I pronounce it for the slide show. If I say Point, do I sound like a boob? If I say Pwont will the audience be so busy puzzling out what I am saying that they will miss the rest of the commentary? Will some people think me elitist? Fortunately I do not have any Tonder in the show. When I say Tonder, I am invariable corrected to Tooner. When I say Tooner, people in the US say, "what?" Likewise the problem with Chantilly. When I say Chanteeyay, I am met with blank stares. Most people are familiar with the pronounciation Chantilly from the Country Western song "Chantilly Lace". Santina Levey espouses a philosophy of eliminating French names of lace whenever possible as hopelessly Victorian. However, Point de Angleterre somehow conveys more than Brussels Bobbin lace to many people who read about lace and I think she even uses the term herself. LIkewise Point de Neige does not seem to have an English counterpart except "fine needle lace from Venice". Does one approach this issue as though everyone in the audience is sophisticated enough to know the pronunciation rules of every language or does one pronounce things the way they would be pronounced in the language that you are speaking in? Devon who realizes that she doesn't even know how her own last name would be pronounced in the European country of its origin, Luxemburg. - To unsubscribe send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] containing the line: unsubscribe lace [EMAIL PROTECTED] For help, write to [EMAIL PROTECTED]