Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin

2009-08-10 Thread Ken Gentle
While the LEAF project goals may not include the word floppy, and even
taking into account the LRP history, there are a lot of posts in the
archives discussing the need/perceived requirement to keep the Bering (and
Bering uClibc) minimal runnable configuration small enough to fit on a
floppy (maybe a non-standard 1.6Mb, but still on a floppy).
My question, Is a LEAF distribution required to fit on and boot from a
1.44Mb floppy? was more rhetorical in nature, intended to spur discussion
to get the real requirements figured out.

Ken


On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 04:18, Gordon Bos gor...@q-ry.nl wrote:

 Mike Noyes wrote:
  -snip-
  Is a LEAF distribution required to fit on and boot from a 1.44Mb
 floppy?
 
  Ken,
  No. See: Project Goals
 
  Maintain as small a footprint as possible for release/branch
  target installations.
 
  Ken,
  Just to clarify, the LEAF project description and goals haven't had the
  word floppy in them for years.
 

 I'm guessing that would be an honoust mistaken from anyone that
 remembers the abandoned Linux Router Project. With LEAF having adopted
 so much from that earlier project it can be hard to tell the difference
 at first glance.

 The concept of having read-only media to boot from has, in my opinion,
 not lost its validity. The thought of being able to reboot and loose
 anything a hacker has changed, is very assuring. Obviously you'll still
 need to plug the leak that the hacker discovered, but at least you have
 no immediate worry about others discovering the hackers backdoor.

 I realize that none of the commercial products appear to be using this
 concept, but their solution is to reset to factory defaults. In essence
 that is no different, but it offers a lot less flexibility towards the
 people operating it. I do not use LEAF out of cheapness, I use it
 because I think I can do a better job than those commercial products.

 Gordon


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Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:48 -0400, Ken Gentle wrote:
 While the LEAF project goals may not include the word floppy, and even
 taking into account the LRP history, there are a lot of posts in the
 archives discussing the need/perceived requirement to keep the Bering (and
 Bering uClibc) minimal runnable configuration small enough to fit on a
 floppy (maybe a non-standard 1.6Mb, but still on a floppy).
 My question, Is a LEAF distribution required to fit on and boot from a
 1.44Mb floppy? was more rhetorical in nature, intended to spur discussion
 to get the real requirements figured out.
-snip-

Ken,
The project goals were rewritten in a manner that allows for evolution
in hardware and software. Setting specific limits prevents leaps in
leaf/branch development.

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Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:18 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
-snip-
 The concept of having read-only media to boot from has, in my opinion, 
 not lost its validity. The thought of being able to reboot and loose 
 anything a hacker has changed, is very assuring. Obviously you'll still 
 need to plug the leak that the hacker discovered, but at least you have 
 no immediate worry about others discovering the hackers backdoor.
-snip-

Gordon,
Hardware write protect is something that concerns our project members.
See:

http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=write+protectl=leaf-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net

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Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin

2009-08-10 Thread Gordon Bos
Ken Gentle wrote:
 While the LEAF project goals may not include the word floppy, and even
 taking into account the LRP history, there are a lot of posts in the
 archives discussing the need/perceived requirement to keep the Bering (and
 Bering uClibc) minimal runnable configuration small enough to fit on a
 floppy (maybe a non-standard 1.6Mb, but still on a floppy).

I'd guess few people could even run LEAF from a single floppy at present 
time. I know I can't, and I've never owned any legacy system that could 
boot from non (IBM) standard disk sizes. Even in the old LRP days with 
the 2.2 kernel I was required to use a two-floppy setup at one point. 
As small as possible seems to me a much more valid target then trying 
to stay within 1.44Mb.

That said, I do feel that efforts should be made to still allow booting 
from floppy in future developments. When considering power consumption 
it still makes a lot of sense to use a legacy system and many of those 
will simply not boot from CD or USB devices (but will allow using once 
booted).

Gordon

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[leaf-user] Write Protect

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
Subject was: Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 08:39 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:18 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
 -snip-
  The concept of having read-only media to boot from has, in my opinion, 
  not lost its validity. The thought of being able to reboot and loose 
  anything a hacker has changed, is very assuring. Obviously you'll still 
  need to plug the leak that the hacker discovered, but at least you have 
  no immediate worry about others discovering the hackers backdoor.
 -snip-
 
 Gordon,
 Hardware write protect is something that concerns our project members.
 See:
 
 http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=write+protectl=leaf-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net

Gordon,
You can obtain a write protect hardware option fairly easy now. It's not
like it was seven years ago, when a hardware hack (ADM module using the
LD017 controller chip) was necessary. 

http://reviews.cnet.com/usb-flash-drives/?filter=502909_14791771_


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Re: [leaf-user] Write Protect

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 09:27 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 Subject was: Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin
 On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 08:39 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
  On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:18 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
  -snip-
   The concept of having read-only media to boot from has, in my opinion, 
   not lost its validity. The thought of being able to reboot and loose 
   anything a hacker has changed, is very assuring. Obviously you'll still 
   need to plug the leak that the hacker discovered, but at least you have 
   no immediate worry about others discovering the hackers backdoor.
  -snip-
  
  Gordon,
  Hardware write protect is something that concerns our project members.
  See:
  
  http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=write+protectl=leaf-devel%40lists.sourceforge.net
 
 Gordon,
 You can obtain a write protect hardware option fairly easy now. It's not
 like it was seven years ago, when a hardware hack (ADM module using the
 LD017 controller chip) was necessary. 
 
 http://reviews.cnet.com/usb-flash-drives/?filter=502909_14791771_

Gordon,
Kanguru and Imation look like they have this segment targeted.

http://www.kanguru.com/kanguruusbflash.html
http://www.imation.com/en/Imation-Products/USB-Flash-Drives--Accessories/

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Re: [leaf-user] Floppies WP

2009-08-10 Thread Paul Rogers
Look, there are obviously different perspectives on this.  And that's
to say that LEAF meets different needs!

 How much of an issue is having write protection? I can understand that
 it is better in theory but I can't think of a commercial firewall
 product (Cisco PIX, Linksys, DLink etc) that does not use flash and
 that has any sort of write protection.

Why do you think we prefer LEAF to commercial boxes?  Besides the
obvious fact that one is FREE and the other not only costs money, but
represents a monoculture that protects attractive targets, that is.
Break one, get into all.

 If having boot from R/O media is an issue you could boot from CD and
 save to a floppy. You could also write protect CF media with a
 hardware hack to the cable.

OH, now there's an attractive installation!

 So from my perspective this would seem to be a non issue for most
 users and that for those few where it is an issue there are ways
 around it with some extra work.

As long as they have YOUR perspective, eh?

For the record, I'm still using Bering-1.2, IIRC.  It ain't broke, I've
seen no reason to FIX it.  I certainly WOULD be running from a WP
floppy, except the BIOS of the Compaq pizza-box it's on won't boot from
an extended format floppy, so I had to get cute  tricky!  For me, the
ultimate criterion for a firewall is SURETY.  I've seen nothing yet that
beats a floppy installation, given that spending money unnecessarily is
an issue for a retired person living on a low fixed income.
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[leaf-user] Power Consumption

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
Subject was: Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 17:47 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
-snip- 
 When considering power consumption it still makes a lot of sense to use
  a legacy system and many of those will simply not boot from CD or USB
  devices (but will allow using once booted).

Gordon,
I believe this will change markedly as netbooks/mini-notebooks enter the
used computer market in significant numbers.

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Re: [leaf-user] Power Consumption

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:52 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 Subject was: Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin
 On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 17:47 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
 -snip- 
  When considering power consumption it still makes a lot of sense to use
   a legacy system and many of those will simply not boot from CD or USB
   devices (but will allow using once booted).
 
 Gordon,
 I believe this will change markedly as netbooks/mini-notebooks enter the
 used computer market in significant numbers.

Example:
http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=1208

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Re: [leaf-user] Floppies WP

2009-08-10 Thread Frederick Stevens
I'm using two leaf boxes (3.1beta2 or beta1, I'd have to look again)
that boot from CDROM and load from an older USB stick that has a
hardware write protect switch on the drive.  I have to power down and
then move the switch to update or change settings but for the most
part I haven't had to do that on a regular basis.  I've also been
using leaf since the 1.2 release and am very satisfied with it.

Thanks!

Fred Stevens

On 8/10/09, Paul Rogers paulgrog...@fastmail.fm wrote:
 Look, there are obviously different perspectives on this.  And that's
 to say that LEAF meets different needs!

 How much of an issue is having write protection? I can understand that
 it is better in theory but I can't think of a commercial firewall
 product (Cisco PIX, Linksys, DLink etc) that does not use flash and
 that has any sort of write protection.

 Why do you think we prefer LEAF to commercial boxes?  Besides the
 obvious fact that one is FREE and the other not only costs money, but
 represents a monoculture that protects attractive targets, that is.
 Break one, get into all.

 If having boot from R/O media is an issue you could boot from CD and
 save to a floppy. You could also write protect CF media with a
 hardware hack to the cable.

 OH, now there's an attractive installation!

 So from my perspective this would seem to be a non issue for most
 users and that for those few where it is an issue there are ways
 around it with some extra work.

 As long as they have YOUR perspective, eh?

 For the record, I'm still using Bering-1.2, IIRC.  It ain't broke, I've
 seen no reason to FIX it.  I certainly WOULD be running from a WP
 floppy, except the BIOS of the Compaq pizza-box it's on won't boot from
 an extended format floppy, so I had to get cute  tricky!  For me, the
 ultimate criterion for a firewall is SURETY.  I've seen nothing yet that
 beats a floppy installation, given that spending money unnecessarily is
 an issue for a retired person living on a low fixed income.
 --
 Paul Rogers
 paulgrog...@fastmail.fm
 http://www.xprt.net/~pgrogers/
 Rogers' Second Law: Everything you do communicates.
 (I do not personally endorse any additions after this line. TANSTAAFL :-)

   

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Re: [leaf-user] Write Protect

2009-08-10 Thread Ralph Green
Howdy,
  This is pretty interesting.  I thought no one was making them with
write protect anymore.  I have been using a USB to SD card adapter and
SD cards, because the SD cards usually have a write protect switch.
Now, I wonder if any of these write protectable USB drives use good NAND
memory.  Most of them these days are MLC(junk), instead of SLC.  None of
the drives in this list said anything in their specs about the type of
flash chips they are using.  Do you know any that use SLC(Single Level
Cell) and have a write protect switch?  If they were close to reasonably
priced, I'd have to go buy a few.
Good day,
Ralph

On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 09:27 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 You can obtain a write protect hardware option fairly easy now. It's not
 like it was seven years ago, when a hardware hack (ADM module using the
 LD017 controller chip) was necessary. 
 
 http://reviews.cnet.com/usb-flash-drives/?filter=502909_14791771_
 
 


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Re: [leaf-user] Write Protect

2009-08-10 Thread Frederick Stevens
My USB sticks (I have three.) that I use for my routers are two
Imation 32 MB and one Memorex 128 MB drive.  I purchased them a few
years ago and decided to use them in my leaf boxes when I upgraded USB
drives for personal and work use and my leaf boxes.  I think that one
may be able to find the Imation drives floating around somewhere but
the Memorex one I picked up at Target for a song since they were
closing them out.  I don't know what technology they are using.  I'd
have to check.

Take Care,

Fred Stevens

On 8/10/09, Ralph Green sfrea...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Howdy,
   This is pretty interesting.  I thought no one was making them with
 write protect anymore.  I have been using a USB to SD card adapter and
 SD cards, because the SD cards usually have a write protect switch.
 Now, I wonder if any of these write protectable USB drives use good NAND
 memory.  Most of them these days are MLC(junk), instead of SLC.  None of
 the drives in this list said anything in their specs about the type of
 flash chips they are using.  Do you know any that use SLC(Single Level
 Cell) and have a write protect switch?  If they were close to reasonably
 priced, I'd have to go buy a few.
 Good day,
 Ralph

 On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 09:27 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 You can obtain a write protect hardware option fairly easy now. It's not
 like it was seven years ago, when a hardware hack (ADM module using the
 LD017 controller chip) was necessary.

 http://reviews.cnet.com/usb-flash-drives/?filter=502909_14791771_




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Re: [leaf-user] Write Protect

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 14:39 -0500, Ralph Green wrote:
   This is pretty interesting.  I thought no one was making them with
 write protect anymore.  I have been using a USB to SD card adapter and
 SD cards, because the SD cards usually have a write protect switch.
 Now, I wonder if any of these write protectable USB drives use good NAND
 memory.  Most of them these days are MLC(junk), instead of SLC.  None of
 the drives in this list said anything in their specs about the type of
 flash chips they are using.  Do you know any that use SLC(Single Level
 Cell) and have a write protect switch?  If they were close to reasonably
 priced, I'd have to go buy a few.

Ralph,
I suggest you contact Kanguru and Imation directly, and ask them about
the NAND memory they use.

http://www.kanguru.com/kanguruusbflash.html
http://www.kanguru.com/about.html#contact

http://www.imation.com/en/Imation-Products/USB-Flash-Drives--Accessories/
http://www.imation.com/en/Contact-Us/

Please report any information gleaned back to our list. Thanks.

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Re: [leaf-user] Power Consumption

2009-08-10 Thread n22e113
 -snip- 
 When considering power consumption it still makes a lot of sense to use
  a legacy system and many of those will simply not boot from CD or USB
  devices (but will allow using once booted).
 
Try: http://www.pcengines.ch/alix2d1.htm
From their manual: 3.5W at Linux idle, peak about 5W without miniPIC cards and 
USB devices. Little overkill since it came with 128mb of RAM.


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Re: [leaf-user] Power Consumption

2009-08-10 Thread gordon
 On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:52 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 Subject was: Re: [leaf-user] Project Admin
 On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 17:47 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
 -snip-
  When considering power consumption it still makes a lot of sense to
 use
   a legacy system and many of those will simply not boot from CD or USB
   devices (but will allow using once booted).

 Gordon,
 I believe this will change markedly as netbooks/mini-notebooks enter the
 used computer market in significant numbers.

 Example:
 http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=1208

If I had to buy a box specifically for hosting Bering, I'd think more of
something like the Cherry Pal. The thing about these boxes however is that
you can only add hardware by plugging in USB devices. So how many USB
network devices are actually supported? And what kind of conflicts could
rise if I'd connect multiple NICs through a USB hub?

Gordon



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Re: [leaf-user] Power Consumption

2009-08-10 Thread Mike Noyes
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 22:05 +0200, gor...@q-ry.nl wrote:
  On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 10:52 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
  Gordon,
  I believe this will change markedly as netbooks/mini-notebooks enter the
  used computer market in significant numbers.
 
  Example:
  http://www.geeks.com/products_sc.asp?cat=1208
 
 If I had to buy a box specifically for hosting Bering, I'd think more of
 something like the Cherry Pal.

Gordon,
I looking for an equivalent to the used 486 market. Ubiquitous and cheap
to free when used. I think the netbook/mini-notebook with Intel Atom
processor will fit this mold.

My main concern is the installed Wi-Fi (drivers  access point mode).
The other thing that concerns me is disabling suspend etc., when the lid
is closed.

 The thing about these boxes however is that you can only add hardware
  by plugging in USB devices. So how many USB network devices are
  actually supported? And what kind of conflicts could rise if I'd
  connect multiple NICs through a USB hub?

I'm not sure. I thought most of this was taken care of in the early days
of usbnet.

http://www.linux-usb.org/usbnet/

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Re: [leaf-user] Write Protect

2009-08-10 Thread Victor McAllister
On Mon, 2009-08-10 at 09:27 -0700, Mike Noyes wrote:
 You can obtain a write protect hardware option fairly easy now. It's not
 like it was seven years ago, when a hardware hack (ADM module using the
 LD017 controller chip) was necessary. 

 http://reviews.cnet.com/usb-flash-drives/?filter=502909_14791771_
 
Write protected hardware requires physical access to the LEAF box. A 
software write protect has the advantage that you can set and unset the 
read and write access to the boot media with putty, ssh. I use two 
scripts loaded by local.lrp. Granted this is a little cumbersome because 
you have to keep a copy of  three modules on your desktop machine and 
scp / winscp them over as needed. If you command a reboot, the machine 
is restored to read write status since the scripts are only run manually 
via ssh.

**
#! /bin/ash
# rm-ide by Victor McAllister
# This script removes modules to prevent
# access to the boot media - CF ide disk
echo

MODULES=ide-disk ide-detect ide-core
BOOTDIR=/boot/lib/modules
LIBDIR=/lib/modules

for MODULE in ${MODULES}
do
rmmod ${MODULE}
rm ${BOOTDIR}/${MODULE}.o
rm ${LIBDIR}/${MODULE}.o
done
echo
echo The modules needed for IDE access are not plugged into
echo the kernel or located in the TWO modules directories.
echo
echo The Compact Flash is NOT accessible.



#! /bin/sh
# load-ide by Victor McAllister
#
echo Ths script installs ide modules to access Compact Flash
echo First copy the files ide-core.o ide-dectect.o ide-disk.o
echo using SCP to the /lib/modules directory.
echo

MODULES=ide-core ide-detect ide-disk
LIBDIR=/lib/modules
BOOTDIR=/boot/lib/modules

for MODULE in ${MODULES}
 do
insmod ${MODULE}
cp ${LIBDIR}/${MODULE}.o ${BOOTDIR}/${MODULE}.o

 done
 
if (lsmod | grep ide-)
   then
  
echo
echo Mount the CF possibly using:  mount -t msdos /dev/hda1 /mnt
echo
echo modules necessary are also in  /boot/lib/modules
echo for possible backing up your configuration.

   else
echo
echo IDE modules not loaded - CF drive not accessible.
echo Did you forgot to SCP the files to /lib/modules?
   fi
  
###

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