Re: How do you categorize dividends vs wages?

[Klauss Hass]

> On 10 May 2020, at 19:05, Kent R. Spillner  wrote:
> 
> Hi, ledger friends-
> 
> Happy Mother's Day!
> 
> I realize this is an Accounting 101 question and not ledger-specific, but for 
> the people on this list using ledger to manage their own business: how do you 
> categorize dividends vs wages?  Are they technically considered expenses or 
> liabilities?
Wages are categorized as expenses in the P report, dividends appear as 
outflows only on the cash flow reports. I put it under investing cash flows but 
an outflow as operational cash flow can be also accepted.

> 
> I track W2 wages as Expenses:Acme:Pay:Alice and dividends as 
> Expenses:Acme:Pay:Dividend:Bob.  It seems to be working fine for my wife's 
> business since I started using ledger back in February, but I wonder if 
> there's a better way?
The problem of categorizing dividends paid to partners is that it’s usually not 
an operational expense. If your business isn’t profitable you will probably not 
be getting dividends.

If you work in the company you own you should only expense that way the fixed 
pay that the company pays you monthly. I’m not sure ledger if able to do it, 
but at a fixed interval the accrued profit for the period should go to an 
equity account like Equity:Retained Earnings

When the dividend is effectively paid you have a debit on the equity:Retained 
Earnings and a credit on the assets:cash. So the value of the company is 
transferred to the partners assets.

I’m not sure ledger can transfer the effective period profit to another 
account, it’s called zeroing the account. John can probably answer it better 
though

> 
> Should payroll for each employee be modeled as something like a debit to 
> Liability:Acme:Salary:Alice and a credit to Expense:Acme:Accounts 
> Payable:Alice:Salary?  Should dividends be a debit to Equity:Acme:Owners:Bob?

You should debt your asset:cash and credit the expense when the salary is paid. 
You can create a provision for future employee expense if that is the case 
there.
For instance, if you pay a Christmas bonus for employees that is accrued 
monthly you should debit Expenses:Acme:Alice:Bonus and credit 
Liabilities:Wages:Alice:Bonus

When the bonus is paid you just reverse it with a credit on assets:cash and a 
debit on Libilities:Wages:Alice:Bonus

> 
> Also, how do you track payroll taxes?  In the US employers are required to 
> automatically withhold a percentage of an employee's wages and pay taxes with 
> that money on the employee's behalf, and additionally there are other taxes 
> that are the emplyer's responsibility.  I'm just tracking them as separate 
> expense accounts, but I feel like professional accountants probably have a 
> better method.  (Apologies to int'l readers if this is too US-specific)

I prefer to create an account for each employee and categorize sub expenses for 
the respective employee. If it’s an overhead indirect cost it’s categorized in 
another account.


> 
> For what it's worth, I've mostly been re-reading this section of the manual 
> for inspiration: 
> https://www.ledger-cli.org/3.0/doc/ledger3.html#Tracking-reimbursable-expenses.
>   If there are other good sources of information for these types of things 
> I'd appreciate pointers (I've bookmarked the Software Freedom Conservancy 
> tutorials from plaintextaccounting.org but haven't gotten around to reading 
> them yet; are they applicable to for-profit business entities as well?).
What I really couldn’t find so far is a proper emacs tutorial. I mostly use 
spacemacs / doom emacs to edit ledger files but I can’t say for sure I 
understand how they work.

Maybe the ledger-mode files can help you.


> 
> I'm curious to hear how other people handle these issues in their ledgers.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Best,
> Kent
> 
> 
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Re: Return of Capital syntax

[Klauss Hass]

This is how I do, and I’m not sure it’s the correct way to go but it works 
for me so far. Say you have $ 2000 on your broker account as a starting 
balance, it should be written like this

2019-01-01 * Broker
Assets:Broker  $2000
Equity

Imagine on the next day you want to purchase 10 apple stocks, currently 
trading at $100 and your broker charges you $1 for the transaction, it 
should be written something like this:

2019-01-02 * Bought 10 AAPL
Assets:Stocks:AAPL  10  AAPL
Assets:Broker  -$1001

Ledger you calculate that each of your AAPL stock is worth $ 100,1 for you

Say the next day the stock goes up to 102 and you intend to sell it, the 
broker will charge you $1 for the transaction it should be registered 
somewhat as follow:

2019-01-03 * Sold 10 AAPL
Assets:Broker  $  1019
Assets:Stocks:AAPL  -10  AAPL
Income:Capital_Gain

If you do it this way, ledger will report that you have a capital gain of $ 
18 ($1019 - $ 1001) on this transaction if you use the -V syntax, though 
I’m not sure if it uses FIFO or calculates the average price, if more AAPL 
stock is bought before being sold. I’m sure someone can shed a light on it.

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 8:49:36 AM UTC-3, Alen Šiljak wrote:
>
> Hi, Klaus. Thank you for the info. I'm not sure I understand completely, 
> though.
>
> I'm following a simple scenario, as described at 
> https://www.gnucash.org/docs/v3/C/gnucash-guide/invest-retofcap.html.
> The transaction marks the return of AU$ amount from an account that holds 
> shares (IPE). In GnuCash, this is possible due to two separate fields for 
> amount (currency) vs quantity (shares).
>
> I'm not really interested in price in this specific case. Nor is there any 
> price specified in the record. The transaction contains the following:
> - $79 goes OUT of IPE account
> - $79 goes INTO Cash account
>
> - $79 goes OUT of Trading:AUD account (to balance the currency trade part)
> - $79 goes INTO Trading:IPE account.
>
> I'm actually still trying to understand what the actual problem is, tying 
> the real world and different ways to record it in different software. :)
>
>
> On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 13:43:05 UTC+2, Klauss Hass wrote:
>>
>> I tried tracking broker expenses as the way you’re doing and found it 
>> hard to track capital gain and income taxes.
>>
>> If I’m not mistaken it is a better practice to ledger calculate the asset 
>> price according to the amount debited/credited on your broker account.
>>
>>

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Re: Return of Capital syntax

[Klauss Hass]

I tried tracking broker expenses as the way you’re doing and found it hard to 
track capital gain and income taxes.

If I’m not mistaken it is a better practice to ledger calculate the asset price 
according to the amount debited/credited on your broker account.

> On 17 Apr 2019, at 08:33, Alen Šiljak  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Martin! Thanks for the feedback. I'm afraid it's not so easy but it 
> shouldn't be difficult, either.
> 
> "Trading Accounts" are the accounts used for the implementation of Selinger's 
> commodity exchange tracking (https://wiki.gnucash.org/wiki/Trading_Accounts). 
> I've seen the same recommendation in the docs (or forums) somewhere but can't 
> find a reference right now, though.
> 
> Obviously, not using the Trading Accounts would make this work but I'd really 
> like to track the amounts as a result of currency exchange fluctuations.
> 
> The "two spaces" issue is just a result of copy/pasting the transaction here. 
> Perhaps this will work better:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Wednesday, 17 April 2019 12:59:27 UTC+2, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know what a trading account is, but if Trading:CURRENCY:AUD is 
>> negative, shouldn't Trading:ASX:IPE also be negative? 
> 
> The Trading accounts should balance each other - the amount that goes to the 
> Cash (AUD) account is subtracted from the "Trading:AUD" and vice versa for 
> IPE. However, this second part is confusing to me. IPE accounts are in 
> commodity IPE (same name, so bear with me ;). It's a security (fund) traded 
> on ASX. 
> GnuCash has two fields for these: Quantity and Amount. Quantity is in units 
> (shares) and Amount is in currency (AUD). For ledger, though, it makes no 
> sense to use the 79.61 AUD amount in IPE account. It should probably be 
> ignored.
> => Resolving this might be the key.
>  
>> Finally, you cannot have 0. IPE.  It needs to have some number that's 
>> not zero. 
>  
>> This balances for me: 
>> 
>> 2018/04/09 return of capital 
>> Assets:Investments:Broker:Cash 79.61 AUD 
>> Trading:ASX:IPE-1. IPE @@ 79.61 AUD 
>> Assets:Investments:Broker:Shares:IPE1. IPE @@ 79.61 AUD 
>> Trading:CURRENCY:AUD-79.61 AUD 
>> 
> 
> The problem with this is that there is a change in number of shares. This 
> does not happen in reality, though.
> 
> Perhaps we could tackle the issue from the opposite side: How would you 
> record a return of capital in ledger?
> Let's say there is $1000 in 100 shares in IPE account. The fund is shutting 
> down and returning funds to the shareholders. They give me back $500 as a 
> result of selling a part of the portfolio. The price on the market 
> automatically drops to half, I guess, but that has no real relevance to our 
> case.
> Now, I still have the same amount of shares (100) but they are only worth 
> ~$500, and I got $500 back in cash.
> 
> I would like to be able to identify this in a report, hence it would be 
> important to know the correct syntax for storing this type of transaction.
> 
> Cheers!
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Re: Need Ledger Information

[Klauss Hass]

One thing that really helped me in the beginning is the example journal file 
which can be found in the appendix

https://www.ledger-cli.org/3.0/doc/ledger3.html#Example-Journal-File 


It covers everything, apart from commodities, which is in another part of the 
manual.

> On 27 Feb 2019, at 10:12, Richard Lawrence  wrote:
> 
> your $PATH?

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Re: Commodity performance over time

[Klauss Hass]

Opened the issue at https://github.com/ledger/ledger/issues/1703

Thanks

> On 11 Jan 2019, at 15:54, Martin Michlmayr  wrote:
> 
> Can you open a bug on GitHub?
> 
> * Klauss Hass mailto:kla...@hass.net.br>> [2019-01-11 
> 14:29]:
>> Sure
>> 
>> Just tried running the command ledger -f test.ledger r 
>> assets:investments:funds:BTGPacYieldDIFICP -V and got the same error. It 
>> works with “b” instead of “r” though.
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 11 Jan 2019, at 14:20, Martin Michlmayr  wrote:
>>> 
>>> * Klauss Hass  [2019-01-11 11:02]:
>>>> Piggybacking on the discussion, every time I try to use the -V on accounts 
>>>> that have many entries on my prices.db file I get the error :Floating 
>>>> point exception: 8. I’m using Ledger 3.1.1-20160111 from homebrew, though 
>>>> the same error occurred on the arch version.
>>>> 
>>>> When I run the same command on hledger the output is displayed as expected.
>>>> 
>>>> Does anyone know any workaround for this or how I should debug it?
>>> 
>>> Produce a small test case.  The pricedb info isn't secret (I would
>>> suspect) so it doesn't matter if it's big.  Then create a minimal
>>> ledger file to reproduce the issue.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Martin Michlmayr
>>> https://www.cyrius.com/
>>> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
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> https://www.cyrius.com/ <https://www.cyrius.com/>
> 
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Re: Commodity performance over time

[Klauss Hass]

Piggybacking on the discussion, every time I try to use the -V on accounts that 
have many entries on my prices.db file I get the error :Floating point 
exception: 8. I’m using Ledger 3.1.1-20160111 from homebrew, though the same 
error occurred on the arch version.

When I run the same command on hledger the output is displayed as expected.

Does anyone know any workaround for this or how I should debug it?

> On 11 Jan 2019, at 03:11, Martin Michlmayr  wrote:
> 
> * Craig Earls  [2019-01-10 19:01]:
>> Neither -X nor -V work as I expect.  I would like one of these to to shot
>> the running total evaluated in dollars.  The PriceDB is fully populated.
> 
> I can't really make sense of the register output you posted, but this
> should work fine.  Can you show a small test case, including pricedb?
> 
> -- 
> Martin Michlmayr
> https://www.cyrius.com/
> 
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Re: Using R as an analysis and reporting tool

[Klauss Hass]

Would it be possible to use this script with the prices.db file and get 
investments market value over time?

> On 25 Aug 2018, at 16:57, Richard Gott  wrote:
> 
> Hello all
> 
> I have trouble with the standard balance sheet output.  It's OK for me but my 
> committee is completely thrown by minus signs etc.  I have tried the various 
> ledger add-ons with no success (running Arch Linux (Manjaro) and Ubuntu 18).
> 
> So I decided to send all the data to R (https://cran.r-project.org/) which is 
> very stable, well suppoorted and flexible.
> 
> I doubt if this is of much interest but, just in case, here goes:
> 
> This is the R syntax for reading a balance sheet adn the raw ledger data.  
> The syntax shown will read the latest version of the data so it is always up 
> to date.
> 
> Balance sheet:
> 
> --
> # Read ledger balance and create temp text file, check that its ok 
> ---
>  system("ledger bal --flat --depth 4 > depth4.txt")
>  system("tail depth4.txt ")
> 
> # set nrows to miss out total line at bottom, add column names
>  bal <- read.table("depth4.txt", sep="", header=F, nrows=54)
>  colnames(bal) <- c("Amount","Account")
> 
> # remove £ adn force to numeric
>  bal$Amount <- as.numeric(gsub("£", "", bal$Amount))
>  str(bal)
> 
> # Income adn expenses separated out
>   Bal_income <- subset(bal, grepl("Income",Account))
>   Bal_expenses <- subset(bal, grepl("Expenses",Account))
> 
> # swap columns adn remove minus sign - Income only shown
>   Bal_income <- Bal_income[,c('Account', 'Amount')]
>   Bal_income$Amount <- - Bal_income$Amount
>   head(Bal_income)
> -
> 
>   Account  Amount
> 34   Income:Bank_interest2.33
> 35 Income:Concert_income:Other:Folder   20.00
> 36 Income:Concert_income:Other:Music_hire  701.50
> 37 Income:Concert_income:Other:Programmes  214.95
> 38  Income:Concert_income:Tickets:Advance 1068.00
> 39 Income:Concert_income:Tickets:Door  280.00
> 
> (this will align OK onteh screen and in a spreadheet)
> 
> I then send this directly to an excel sheet using the R package 'xlsx'.  jhis 
> allows you to create a sheet, and send the results to a specific cell start 
> position.  Cut and paste is ok as well.
> 
> The ledger raw data:
> 
> 
> # load lubridate package to handle date format
> 
> library("lubridate")
> 
> # Read ledger files and create csv
> 
> system("echo Date,Code,Payee,Account,Currency,Amount,Status,Notes  >  
> ledger.csv")
> system("ledger main.ledger csv  -S date >> ledger.csv")
> 
> # Load into R
>  ledger <- read.csv("ledger.csv", header=T)
> # convert date format to ISO (optional)
> # convert others to more sensible format
> 
> ledger$Date <- ymd(ledger$Date)
>  ledger$Date <- as.Date(ledger$Date)
>  ledger$Code <- as.character(ledger$Code)
>  ledger$Payee <- as.character(ledger$Payee)
>  ledger$Notes <- as.character(ledger$Notes)
> --
> 
> You can now run, for eg, a simple bit of syntax to produce a graph of balance 
> for the year, or income , or whatever.  Plenty of other options avaialbe for 
> pie charts etc.
> 
> If you have been, thanks for reading.
> 
> Richard
> 
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Re: How close an account?

[Klauss Hass]

You probably want to use the —strict option, see 4.6 in the manual

> On 7 May 2018, at 12:15, Aikido Guy  wrote:
> 
> I tried searching this group for "close an account" and did not find any 
> related messages. I also tried reading the user manual for ledger 3.1.1 but 
> could not find something appropriate...
> 
> Is it possible to close an account"?
> 
> For example, I'd like that ledger provide an error if a transaction uses a 
> closed account after the day that the account was closed...
> 
> Kindly,
> Aikido Guy
> 
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Re: Deposit money to be cleared at a later point in time

[Klauss Hass]

You could also use effective dates for that:

2018-01-04  TV Set purchase
Expenses:Electronics. $1050
* Assets:Banking  -$800 ;  [=2018-01-04]
! Assets:Banking  -$250 ;  [=2018-02-04]


> On 14 Apr 2018, at 15:24, Johann Höchtl  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> one bigger problem is that language semantics at times makes it really hard 
> to properly understand the ledger manual 
> https://www.ledger-cli.org/3.0/doc/ledger3.html so I may ask a totally 
> obvious question.
> 
> Suppose I buy sthg. but delivery takes time. So I have to make a 
> "pre-payment" ? / is this the same as a deposit? How would I structure that 
> in ledger?
> 
> Instead of
> 
> 2018-01-04 * TV set pre-paymant
>   Expenses:Electronics   $800
>   Assets:Banking
> 
> 2018-02-04 * TV set delivery
>   Expenses:Electronics   $250
>   Assets:Banking
> 
> 
> My idea would instead be: 
> 
> 2018-01-04 * TV set pre-payment
>   Deposit:Electronics   $800
>   Assets:Banking
> 
> 2018-02-04 * TV set delivery
>   Deposit:Electronics  $250
>   Assets:Banking  -$250
>   Expenses:Electronics
>   Deposit:Electronics   = $0 
> 
> 
> Does this make sense? Are there better ways to represent pre-payments for 
> expected goods not yet delivered?
> 
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Re: Monthly balance position

[Klauss Hass]

Thanks for the heads up.

Did a quick test and it seems that it helps a lot. Though hledger commodity 
directive isn’t working very well. My final checking account balance shows 7 
decimal cases, similar problem as the one found here 
https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/295 
<https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/295> and 
https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/262 
<https://github.com/simonmichael/hledger/issues/262> I’m using hledger 1.9 from 
homebrew.

Tried using the commodity directive found here 
http://hledger.org/journal.html#commodity-directive 
<http://hledger.org/journal.html#commodity-directive> by putting the line 

commodity R$ 1.000,00

In the beginning of the file that pulls my other ledger files but it didn’t 
seem to work. I’ll keep trying though I’ve never given hledger much thought, 
though it feels much slower than ledger.


> On 12 Apr 2018, at 15:01, Richard Lawrence <wyle...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Klauss,
> Klauss Hass <kla...@hass.net.br> writes:
> 
>> Is there any way to use the argument —monthly or --weekly for bal 
>> transactions?  I value my assets weekly and it would be useful to see the 
>> month ending value variation of my assets:investments accounts along with 
>> the -V argument.
> 
> I don't think so, at least not with regular ledger.  I'd be happy to be 
> proven wrong, though! I have also wanted this feature.
> 
> hledger (hledger.org), however, does allow --monthly (and similar flags) with 
> the balance command.  You might want to check that out.
> 
> -- 
> Best,
> Richard

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Monthly balance position

[Klauss Hass]

Is there any way to use the argument —monthly or --weekly for bal transactions?
I value my assets weekly and it would be useful to see the month ending value 
variation of my assets:investments accounts along with the -V argument.

Now I have to manually collect the position using the argument -e “date”, save 
it on Excel and analyze in order to analyze them and there is probably a better 
way to do it.

Thanks

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Re: How to track commodities from acquiring to selling them?

[Klauss Hass]

You have to put the cost of getting that revenue along with the cash position.

As such it would be:

Revenue $2
Expenses:cost:salad 2 salad
Inventory: plant -2 salad
Cash

The way it is being done revenue is getting confused with cost

> On 20 Mar 2018, at 04:01, Ella Lobatina  wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> I'll simplify my use case into that of a cabbage farmer who wants to track 
> his produce until and including sales.
> I see the harvested produce as income of some commodity (cabbage), want to 
> store it somewhere, move it somewhere else, then process it (into salad), 
> move the salad to yet another location, then sell it.
> 
> So here's my assumption: harvested produce is income, no? (Otherwise, where 
> else would it come from?)
> So the harvest looks like:
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   income   -5 cabbage
>   inventory:farm5 cabbage
> 
> From the farm they go to the processing plant, where they will be transformed 
> into 2 salads:
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   inventory:farm   -5 cabbage
>   inventory:plant   2 salad
> 
> Note that the cabbages have not received any financial value, because there 
> was no attempt to sell them.
> Now I move the salad to the store and sell them there the same day:
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   inventory:plant  -2 salad
>   inventory:store   2 salad
> 
> 2018/03/21 buyer
>   income   -2 salad {= $ 2}
>   cash
> 
> My problem is that the assets:store account still contains a positive balance 
> of the salad commodity, while there is none. 
> So according to ledger (not its fault, purely mine, hence this question) 
> there is still an inventory of salad.
> 
> Can anybody help me with this? I'd like the inventory (assets:store) to be 
> cleaned up after we've got rid of all those cabbages.
> Clearly I need an entry with assets:store  -2 salad to do this, but I can't 
> imagine what to use as the balancing account.
> 
> Another problem is that I'm noting a double income here. 
> 
> Well, I see that I'm still developing the question, so please hang on and 
> bear with me:
> 
> 
> Would a better way maybe be to see the 5 cabbages used in the plant as an 
> expense against the previous income at harvest time? As in:
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   ; harvest
>   income   -5 cabbage
>   inventory:farm5 cabbage
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   ; moved to production plant
>   inventory:farm   -5 cabbage
>   inventory:plant   5 cabbage
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   ; consumed in plant
>   expenses  5 cabbage
>   inventory:plant  -5 cabbage
>   ; great, this got rid of the inventory of cabbages which are being 
> transformed into salads right now!
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   ; entry of salads produced
>   income   -2 salad
>   inventory:store   2 salad
> 
> 2018/03/21 farm
>   ; Now the salads are produced and in store and need to be sold. Can I write 
> this as follows?
>   inventory:store  -2 salad {= 2 $}
>   cash  2 salad {= 2 $}
> 
> The only problem I have with this is that the income from salad is recorded 
> before selling it, but then, they were derived from the income during harvest 
> anyway, so maybe that's not a big deal?
> To mitigate this we could probably split the sale into an accounts receivable 
> in which the income is accounted as an aggregate asset, and a payment part, 
> like
> 
> 2018/03/21
>   assets:store-2 salad {= 2 $}
>   assets:accounts receivable   2 salad {= 2 $}
>   ; the sale
>   assets:accounts receivable  -2 salad {= 2 $}
>   assets:cash  2 salad {= 2 $}
>   ; the payment
> 
> Any ideas?
> Suggestions as to how to do it better? (According to official accounting 
> rules?)
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
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