Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > It sounds as good as the Map_Features defined values (and > even better > than smoothness=very_horrible), so yes, I think this > works. Even a > single node saying "note=no road here" or perhaps "note=no > turn here" > where the supposed road meets other roads should save some > people > time. Thank you, sounds like the best suggestion so far, to present we've been marking suitable barriers if there was one, but barrier=fence doesn't stand out very much. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
> The original point remains: this observation is based on > easter eggs of copyrighted data. IANAL but it seems that it > is very similar to the conclusions that were reached that > data obtained from Google Maps is not valid. I'm not sure how I can make this clearer, but virtually no map online would be useful for any kind of route planning if this is copyright infringment. We aren't coping or deriving anything from a map except something it says exists is verifably not there. That isn't copying because I physically went there and made that observation. > I hope that someone with more legal experience will correct > me there if I am wrong. Opinions are great but actual legal advice is what I was hoping to get ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 John Smith : > We're not trying to put copyrighted information in the database, we're > recording an observation, no different then recording the name on a street > sign, no, it's not the same. Because you're gonna write that there is nothing. Why there? Why don't you write everywhere, where there is no road, that you observed that there is no road? > since we actually go out and see it, what is "it"? > the only question is how to make it as easy as possible for others to know > this too. IMHO (IANAL) it will always infringe copyright reporting in a structuralized manner about this proprietary data. cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 John Smith : > --- On Wed, 12/8/09, Tobias Knerr wrote: >> Probably *something* is there in reality. Buildings, walls, >> hedges, a >> park ...? Map these objects (which obviously aren't >> copyrighted), so >> people know that someone has visited the area and mapped it >> in detail. >> If there is no blank space, it will probably attract less >> mappers. > > One such road went into someone's car port, I don't think we have > barrier=car_port :) It sounds as good as the Map_Features defined values (and even better than smoothness=very_horrible), so yes, I think this works. Even a single node saying "note=no road here" or perhaps "note=no turn here" where the supposed road meets other roads should save some people time. Cheers ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray wrote: > I think I do now. As Vincent stated, I don't believe > that OSM should contain non existent roads that are actually > way to identify copyrighted data; that would be imported > that said copyrighted data in OSM. We're not trying to put copyrighted information in the database, we're recording an observation, no different then recording the name on a street sign, since we actually go out and see it, the only question is how to make it as easy as possible for others to know this too. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 Emilie Laffray : > > > 2009/8/12 John Smith >> >> That was one opinion there was other contradictory opinions given as well. >> We aren't copying from maps but trying to map an observation that will be >> very beneficial to others that come after us. It's just a question of how to >> do this in the most informative matter without risking problems with >> copyright. >> > > The original point remains: this observation is based on easter eggs of > copyrighted data. IANAL but it seems that it is very similar to the > conclusions that were reached that data obtained from Google Maps is not > valid. > I hope that someone with more legal experience will correct me there if I am > wrong. +1 still I encourage you to map also the remnants of roads, or planned roads as what they are, this is data that has a place in the db and is maybe more usefull than the information of proprietary easter_eggs. cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 John Smith > > That was one opinion there was other contradictory opinions given as well. > We aren't copying from maps but trying to map an observation that will be > very beneficial to others that come after us. It's just a question of how to > do this in the most informative matter without risking problems with > copyright. > > The original point remains: this observation is based on easter eggs of copyrighted data. IANAL but it seems that it is very similar to the conclusions that were reached that data obtained from Google Maps is not valid. I hope that someone with more legal experience will correct me there if I am wrong. Emilie Laffray ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > Actually this is not legal-talk anymore. I think the answer > was: > separate Layer if you run the servers on your own is OK, > but please > don't map nonexisting roads from other maps (and maybe with > tag > easter_egg=foomap) and put them into the main db. That was one opinion there was other contradictory opinions given as well. We aren't copying from maps but trying to map an observation that will be very beneficial to others that come after us. It's just a question of how to do this in the most informative matter without risking problems with copyright. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 John Smith : > --- On Wed, 12/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> yes, don't mark them as normal roads if they are in a >> degraded state. > > It's worst than that in a lot of cases, they were gazetted, but never built. there is also a tagging proposal for roads in planning and one for construction-phase AFAIR. Maybe you find something in the Wiki. Actually this is not legal-talk anymore. I think the answer was: separate Layer if you run the servers on your own is OK, but please don't map nonexisting roads from other maps (and maybe with tag easter_egg=foomap) and put them into the main db. cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 John Smith : > One such road went into someone's car port, I don't think we have > barrier=car_port :) in this case it will not be a road but a highway=service in Europe and probably access=private (at least for the last few meters), don't know about the australian-tagging-scheme though. I agree with Tobias: map what's there, and if there once was a road, probably there are remnants which tagged as such will explain to the next mapper, what is the situation like. cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > yes, don't mark them as normal roads if they are in a > degraded state. It's worst than that in a lot of cases, they were gazetted, but never built. From discussions on talk-au list today a lot of mapping companies refer to these as "untrafficable roads". They either keep them in their DB to prevent re-importing them, or keep them as a method of copyright protection. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, OJ W wrote: > Draw a bounding box around it and mark it as "all roads > complete in OSM"? What about drawing an area in the approx area that the road is supposed to be? If you put it across a larger area that complicates things when new roads are built in the area. They are building a number of new housing developments in the area, I've mapped some as under construction waiting for them to open properly. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:02 AM, John Smith wrote: > > I tried to search the list archives before posting but couldn't see anything > about this. > > The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting > time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped. Draw a bounding box around it and mark it as "all roads complete in OSM"? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Chris Hill wrote: > Write a Wiki page showing the > progress of the area. You can make comments there. It needs to be spatially recorded, there is literally 100s of non-existing roads within 50km of here, Australia is 7.7 mill sq km... ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Tobias Knerr wrote: > Probably *something* is there in reality. Buildings, walls, > hedges, a > park ...? Map these objects (which obviously aren't > copyrighted), so > people know that someone has visited the area and mapped it > in detail. > If there is no blank space, it will probably attract less > mappers. One such road went into someone's car port, I don't think we have barrier=car_port :) ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
John Smith wrote: > The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting > time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped. Probably *something* is there in reality. Buildings, walls, hedges, a park ...? Map these objects (which obviously aren't copyrighted), so people know that someone has visited the area and mapped it in detail. If there is no blank space, it will probably attract less mappers. Tobias Knerr ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Shaun McDonald wrote: > Draw a way and add note=there is a non-existant road on xxx > maps? The concern with doing this is we could be acused of copying another map, but since we actually sight it and see it doesn't exist a stub might be sufficient > It will mean looking at the data rather than the map. Not really, if people see a blank on OSM but see a road on another map they might feel the urge to map the road that doesn't exist, that's what we're trying to achieve here, limit the amount of times people visit non-existent roads simply because there was no note on the map so they will assume it just hasn't been mapped. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 John Smith > > I don't think you fully understood me, we're not trying to work out from > other maps what roads don't exist, we are trying to tell mappers that come > after us that a road they see on a map doesn't exist and don't waste your > time trying to map non-existing roads. > > I think I do now. As Vincent stated, I don't believe that OSM should contain non existent roads that are actually way to identify copyrighted data; that would be imported that said copyrighted data in OSM. You may want to use OpenStreetBugs or develop an alternate repository for OSM marking those roads and putting them as a layer in a website with the OSM data. That way you wouldn't mess with copyrighted data in OSM. I don't think there are tools to solve your problems, as your problem is quite rare compared to denser areas like Europe. People with good mapping coverage and low density might end up having the same trouble as you, so you may want to look at building that tool and/or trying to get people to build it for you. Regarding the STRM data, you are correct, but the new data from NASA is actually better even if we cannot import it. It would be good for you to test some scenarios. Emilie Laffray ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
Write a Wiki page showing the progress of the area. You can make comments there. cheers, Chris - Original Message > From: John Smith > To: Licensing and other legal discussions. > Sent: Wednesday, 12 August, 2009 11:55:07 > Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets > > > --- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray wrote: > > > Ok, I understand your point. However, I am not sure that > > there is any way to detect if a road exists or not unless > > you are going there. You would need a list of existing roads > > We are going out there and using GPS' however if we see a road on another map > when deciding what to map, any number of mappers that come after you could > end > up finding out the same information. This is what I'm trying to prevent by > putting a note on OSM or something to that effect to say "Hey there is no > road > here, don't bother coming to map it!" > > > but then we are back to the original point that the data > > came from a proprietary solution hence the reason why you > > end up in a bad situation. > > Only to plan routes, we don't copy from them. We still record where we travel > via GPS, it's simply a way to work out what needs to be mapped. If using > another > map to work out a route was copyright infringement no map would ever be able > to > be used. > > > Maybe using STRM data (or the new elevation data) might > > STRM is only good for 90m horizontal per pixel which is just as bad as > landsat. > > > about natural features (I have seen a huge amount of > > shapefile if I remember correctly). You may want to look at > > those to infer what roads could be potentially wrong or not. > > But I am not sure that approach is what we want to do with > > OSM. > > I don't think you fully understood me, we're not trying to work out from > other > maps what roads don't exist, we are trying to tell mappers that come after us > that a road they see on a map doesn't exist and don't waste your time trying > to > map non-existing roads. > > > > > ___ > legal-talk mailing list > legal-talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray wrote: > Ok, I understand your point. However, I am not sure that > there is any way to detect if a road exists or not unless > you are going there. You would need a list of existing roads We are going out there and using GPS' however if we see a road on another map when deciding what to map, any number of mappers that come after you could end up finding out the same information. This is what I'm trying to prevent by putting a note on OSM or something to that effect to say "Hey there is no road here, don't bother coming to map it!" > but then we are back to the original point that the data > came from a proprietary solution hence the reason why you > end up in a bad situation. Only to plan routes, we don't copy from them. We still record where we travel via GPS, it's simply a way to work out what needs to be mapped. If using another map to work out a route was copyright infringement no map would ever be able to be used. > Maybe using STRM data (or the new elevation data) might STRM is only good for 90m horizontal per pixel which is just as bad as landsat. > about natural features (I have seen a huge amount of > shapefile if I remember correctly). You may want to look at > those to infer what roads could be potentially wrong or not. > But I am not sure that approach is what we want to do with > OSM. I don't think you fully understood me, we're not trying to work out from other maps what roads don't exist, we are trying to tell mappers that come after us that a road they see on a map doesn't exist and don't waste your time trying to map non-existing roads. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Vincent MEURISSE wrote: > If you really need such a tool, copy the software used by > openstreetbug, put > it on your server and then you can have annotations on the > map. That's less than I was hoping for, simply because it's hard enough to decide on routes to work out the best mapping coverage with out adding another layer of difficulty on top of things for everyone. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009, Vincent MEURISSE wrote: > If you really need such a tool, copy the software used by openstreetbug, > put it on your server and then you can have annotations on the map. thanks Vincent that could well be a workable solution ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
2009/8/12 Elizabeth Dodd > can i express this problem more clearly > > we are a very small number of mappers covering a very large area. > most proprietary maps contain lines drawn randomly across the map claiming > to > be roads. > when planning a route between two towns > we study the proprietary maps, study OSM and pick a route to cover roads > not > yet mapped - or just traced off landsat > so it is really very annoying to be looking for a road which doesn't exist > except on paper. the road reserve may exist but it could be completely > overgrown with trees, or be impassable with natural features - a cliff, a > water feature > > and its even more annoying to be caught the next time. > > we are considering marking roads as impassable, having a "barrier" to their > use or similar markers which may not ever be rendered but would mark the > problem in the database > > Ok, I understand your point. However, I am not sure that there is any way to detect if a road exists or not unless you are going there. You would need a list of existing roads but then we are back to the original point that the data came from a proprietary solution hence the reason why you end up in a bad situation. I am not sure what would be best. I see why you are looking at those maps to optimize your time to get the mapping done. I can't tell you to ask local people as I am sure in most cases, there won't be any. I understand your request even more since I looked quite extensively at Australia data some time ago. Landsat is not good enough. Maybe using STRM data (or the new elevation data) might give you some clues about cliff and other features. In addition, while the data from your governement is copyrighted, you have access to an enormous amount of data about natural features (I have seen a huge amount of shapefile if I remember correctly). You may want to look at those to infer what roads could be potentially wrong or not. But I am not sure that approach is what we want to do with OSM. Emilie Laffray ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
On Wednesday 12 August 2009 12:16:44 pm John Smith wrote: > how to mark it in OSM so others will know it > doesn't exist, not that it isn't mapped. I really don't think marking non-existent stuff in OSM is a good idea. I take place for nothing and what append if a road is build at the place you mark as having no road ? If you really need such a tool, copy the software used by openstreetbug, put it on your server and then you can have annotations on the map. -- Vincent MEURISSE ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
On 12 Aug 2009, at 11:16, John Smith wrote: --- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray wrote: Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go to the area. More seriously, I don't see the point of this question since all data that we are supposed to collect are based on facts that we collected. Seeing streets that don't exist That isn't the problem, how to mark it in OSM so others will know it doesn't exist, not that it isn't mapped. Draw a way and add note=there is a non-existant road on xxx maps? It will mean looking at the data rather than the map. Shaun smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
--- On Wed, 12/8/09, Emilie Laffray wrote: > Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go > to the area. > More seriously, I don't see the point of this question > since all data that we are supposed to collect are based on > facts that we collected. Seeing streets that don't exist That isn't the problem, how to mark it in OSM so others will know it doesn't exist, not that it isn't mapped. > should not be a problem in the first place. The problem > arises when you actually look at other map providers, which > is what we absolutely don't want in the first place. Australia is a big place and no road data has been imported so lots of it is a very blank canvas. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009, Emilie Laffray wrote: > Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go to the area. > More seriously, I don't see the point of this question since all data that > we are supposed to collect are based on facts that we collected. Seeing > streets that don't exist should not be a problem in the first place. The > problem arises when you actually look at other map providers, which is what > we absolutely don't want in the first place. > > Emilie Laffray can i express this problem more clearly we are a very small number of mappers covering a very large area. most proprietary maps contain lines drawn randomly across the map claiming to be roads. when planning a route between two towns we study the proprietary maps, study OSM and pick a route to cover roads not yet mapped - or just traced off landsat so it is really very annoying to be looking for a road which doesn't exist except on paper. the road reserve may exist but it could be completely overgrown with trees, or be impassable with natural features - a cliff, a water feature and its even more annoying to be caught the next time. we are considering marking roads as impassable, having a "barrier" to their use or similar markers which may not ever be rendered but would mark the problem in the database ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
Yes, there is a way. You simply need to go to the area. More seriously, I don't see the point of this question since all data that we are supposed to collect are based on facts that we collected. Seeing streets that don't exist should not be a problem in the first place. The problem arises when you actually look at other map providers, which is what we absolutely don't want in the first place. Emilie Laffray 2009/8/12 John Smith > > I tried to search the list archives before posting but couldn't see > anything about this. > > The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and > wasting time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't > mapped. > > These streets are usually used to prove copyright infringement so is there > a way to know a street doesn't exist without breaching someone else's > copyright? > ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Non-existant streets
I tried to search the list archives before posting but couldn't see anything about this. The problem is people noticing non-existant streets on other maps and wasting time to only find out that it doesn't exist, not that it wasn't mapped. These streets are usually used to prove copyright infringement so is there a way to know a street doesn't exist without breaching someone else's copyright? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
