Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely the type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the few ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over six months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get any commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As you may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve too much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I want to break: I would like to display at least something about them, without them being able to complain. So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, without having to ask permission to do so? Thanks Andrei PS: was that more specific than my previous message? 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Hi, I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific. my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency or wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what was just 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how hard I searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies that operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much of them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching their name + if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have found something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were available on the internet (even by some local people that would have put these timetables on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed : plan, and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database right. The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data and the necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their lines isn't available at all on the internet, then without the
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html ); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely the type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the few ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over six months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get any commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As you may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve too much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I want to break: I would like to display at least something about them, without them being able to complain. So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, without having to ask permission to do so? Thanks Andrei PS: was that more specific than my previous message? 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Hi, I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific. my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency or wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html ); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example here, because this company happens to be precisely the type of company that would never answer to anyone: they are part of the few ones that are not on itransports.fr; I called them several times, over six months, without being able to pass the welcoming secretary, even to get any commercial representative, not speaking of the director, of course. As you may see, on their web site the don't even display the position of their headquarters, hiding it behind a post box, probably so as not to recieve too much visits from unhappy people. This is precisely the kind of company, I want to break: I would like to display at least something about them, without them being able to complain. So, what part of the previously mentionned data (name, adress of headquarters/barycentre of transport network, radius of operation, and amount and class of their lines), am I legally authorized to display on transiki, according to French law or British law, or any other law, without having to ask permission to do so? Thanks Andrei PS: was that more specific than my previous message? 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com Hi, I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific. my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency or wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that using timetables, or using the gps to recreate transportation maps, or even use a transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and nothing else, would be without problem. And then, I got the answer of Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great chances that timetables would be considered intellectual creations, and hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site without authorization of their owner. So the apparently, there would be no problem answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a there should not be any problem: Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer from a lawyer here. But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or anything to gather 2 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain about what data I stole from them. And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html ); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only these two) last pieces of info were extracted from their transport map available on their site, I admit it. - exactly 10 lines, interurban to departmental class, as can be seen on their page: http://www.albatrans.net/ - then hit nos lignes (not a separate web adress) I gave this example
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that using timetables, or using the gps to recreate transportation maps, or even use a transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and nothing else, would be without problem. And then, I got the answer of Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great chances that timetables would be considered intellectual creations, and hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site without authorization of their owner. So the apparently, there would be no problem answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a there should not be any problem: Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer from a lawyer here. But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or anything to gather 2 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain about what data I stole from them. And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city in which it has the most lines, to position it on a map, - and the total amount and average class of transport (urban, interurban, etc) of operated transport lines, to give a hint about the company's importance, and radius of operation. That's all! Maybe a concrete example would help: consider: - Albatrans, web site http://www.albatrans.net/ - headquarters: 48 Cours Blaise Pascal 91004 EVRY cedex (not visible on their site, but on another site, http://www.optile.com/adherents/index.html ); and barycentre of their lines = around Arpajon, lat/lon= 48.590243,2.248542 , and radius of operation = 25 to 30 kilometers. These two (and only
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies, I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that using timetables, or using the gps to recreate transportation maps, or even use a transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and nothing else, would be without problem. And then, I got the answer of Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great chances that timetables would be considered intellectual creations, and hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site without authorization of their owner. So the apparently, there would be no problem answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a there should not be any problem: Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer from a lawyer here. But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or anything to gather 2 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain about what data I stole from them. And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I found a reference to albatrans here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_RER just add this information to wikipedia. see also here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Paris#Get_around just add all the information you can there and we will see what happens. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, what did you mean by the agency? What I said was not specific about one agency. I used my example in portugal only for illustration. And neither did I talk here about schedules: I let that part of the problem go, until I have 2 dollars to ask that question properly to lawyers that could give me a definite answer for several countries in the world. No the problem is no more about schedules. My question was only, wether we can use: - the name of the company to identify it, and if possible, their web site's adress - the adress of its headquarters OR the city
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Point is, if your article is valid and good according to the rules of the wikipedia, then you can expect their help in defending you. Wikitravel contains some schedules like here : http://wikitravel.org/en/Natuna_Islands http://wikitravel.org/en/Ilawa http://wikitravel.org/en/Nyborg http://wikitravel.org/en/Rangkasbitung There are also links to schedules : http://wikitravel.org/en/Socotra http://wikitravel.org/en/Yuzhno-Kurilsk Now it is questionable if any site will want to hold all the schedules in great detail for no reason, but you might be able to get away with it. lets looks, for paris, you have the metro lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_of_the_Paris_M%C3%A9tro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_railway_stations_in_Paris I would say this is pretty comprehensive data, you can also start an article list_of_transport_networks_in_paris and list them all, what is the problem with that? mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 5:37 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: This may work, but based on my experience about contacting these companies, I doubt they will answer. But maybe i'll try it anyway: they may answer after all. The problem is, by doing this I will always have parcelar information: if one company agrees, that would not mean that the next one would. I would have liked to have some general information, that would apply to every company. But what you said is still a way to attract the attention of closed up companies, and as such, is a good thing. Thank you! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com I dont think I can asnwer this question, my i suggest to write the wikitravel or wikipeida articles and then to send them to the companies to comment on. Or write to thel. first. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: The problem is, many people, even lawyers, told me that using timetables, or using the gps to recreate transportation maps, or even use a transportation map to extract the data about the transport lines, and nothing else, would be without problem. And then, I got the answer of Francis Davey, who told me that at least in England, there wold be great chances that timetables would be considered intellectual creations, and hence, without the need of a sui generis database right, which is actually probably not applicable here, these timetables - and probably, also the plans, and hence position of the stops, etc - won't be usable on any site without authorization of their owner. So the apparently, there would be no problem answer, was wrong. So, I cannot satisfy of a there should not be any problem: Ok, in the US it may be demonstrated, but still, I would like to know which articles, cases, etc... And this is why I asked about such minimalistic things, as one geographical point, the name of the company, the number of lines. I thought, maybe on this, I could get a definite answer from a lawyer here. But ok, I knew what was told to me: I have to ask a lawyer directly to get all my definite answers. Then I will start an import/export company, or anything to gather 2 dollars, and then ask a lawyer, with the assurance to have this definite answer, opposable to any company that would complain about what data I stole from them. And here, the point is not about putting some data about one single company, on wikipedia: it is about importing, using an automated web crawler like google does for its searches, tons and tons of data about tons and tons of companies, while knowing that the data I am importing, is absolutely certain to be free of use. Because, as always, transit companies would wake up only when the amount of overall collected data would make the financial compensations and penalties, huge, and I do not want that! Andrei 2010/12/8 Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com In usa facts are not copyrightable. The facts about the transport are allowed to be put into the wikipedia, if it is notable that is another issue. Youc an also make a wikibook.org about the transportation in france. I dont see why it would be a problem. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Do I have the right to add this info like that? I know that wikipedia is more like a journalistic thing, so you are more free to put whatever you want, but still, I do not know precisely any applicable law in here! And besides, you know, I think albatrans would hardly notice any changes in a particular wikipedia, or wikitravel article...they may only notice it one day, maybe only two years later...and probably they would never notice anything. I would have liked someone that would know applicable law to tell me if I legally can or not! Andrei 2010/12/8
[OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what was just 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how hard I searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies that operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much of them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching their name + if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have found something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were available on the internet (even by some local people that would have put these timetables on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed : plan, and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database right. The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data and the necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their lines isn't available at all on the internet, then without the authorization you could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract anything from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization; and unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps, are free to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I think, based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this problem yet.) So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any permission, to put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the osm (or transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number (amount) of their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if possible, the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in order to decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a search related to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its transport network's radius of operation, how far it can reach, more or less. Also, you could simply classify transit agencies in different categories: urban, interurban, regional, national, if it happens that average line length is still too much data to be free of use. And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page without asking permission to the site's owner? I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at least be * something* you could systematicly say about all transit agencies, wether they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any strong dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters' adress is still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then find another relevant set of coordinates. At least something! And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? Isn't it using a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the owner of the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems to have the authorization to display almost anything about a company when you search for it - on google, but still... Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like that on the not asking the authorization thing: I only believe that it could make the gathering of at least *some* data...much much faster, and the coverage of the transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be really great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And besides, it would need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with every single transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially if they never answer to anything about these type of questions, for any reason they may have... Good night Andrei ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Advice for transiki
Hi, I would suggest that the devil is in the details, please be specific. my I suggest that you write a wikipeidia article about the agency or wikitravel page about the timeplan/schedule and I will review it. mike On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 3:43 AM, Andrei Klochko transportspl...@gmail.com wrote: Hello again, This time, no weird things. I thinked a little about the whole transit data stuff, and I had an idea: if we think of the very minimalistic set of things, that someone willing to go to a lost place needs to know to succeed in planning his trip (I especially think of very lost places, far in the countryside), then maybe, the operating centre (say, headquarters' adress), and at least the welcome page of the website, of surrounding transit agencies, would still be a good start for that. If, by clicking a place, any user could have access to this minimalistic set of data about surrounding transit agencies, then at least he would know where to search the remaining data he needs to plan his trip. I am thinking here of a trip I made to portugal last summer, and about my endless search for a transit agency that would cover a specific place, 30km west of Lisbon (West Birre and Murches, for those who know), and I found everything about what was just 8km east or further of that point, but nothing closer, no matter how hard I searched for it. If only I had known the names of the transit agencies that operated on that specific place, or at least around there (but as much of them as possible, ideally all of them!) then when searching their name + if necessary the names of surrounding cities, on google, I might have found something. And then, if any data concerning these agencies were available on the internet (even by some local people that would have put these timetables on a local site, not belonging to the transit agency: this is not our problem!), I would have found the reamaining information I needed : plan, and timetable, without anybody violating any copyright or database right. The problem of transit agencies who do not have a web site is another concern, as for that it falls back to the issue of true transit data and the necessity of an authorization to reproduce it (if the data about their lines isn't available at all on the internet, then without the authorization you could link to nowhere, neither could you take pictures and extract anything from them to put it on the internet, without proper authorization; and unless the positions of the bus stops, acquired by means of a gps, are free to use (which, I guess, we still cannot decide for sure), then I think, based on what was said earlier, that we can do nothing about this problem yet.) So, I would like to know: is it possible, without asking any permission, to put at least one geographical point about a transit agency, on the osm (or transiki) map, weither it be the adress of its headquarters or the barycentre of their transport network, and, say, the number (amount) of their lines?The total amount of lines a company operates, and if possible, the average distance each line runs on, would be useful to know in order to decide, for example, wether you include a transit agency in a search related to one point on the map, or not. It would give a hint about its transport network's radius of operation, how far it can reach, more or less. Also, you could simply classify transit agencies in different categories: urban, interurban, regional, national, if it happens that average line length is still too much data to be free of use. And also, is it always possible to link to a website's front page without asking permission to the site's owner? I'm asking here about minimalistic things, I mean, there must at least be something you could systematicly say about all transit agencies, wether they agree with it or not, on transiki, and possibly, without any strong dependancy to the local country's law...and if the headquarters' adress is still not a free piece of data you can add without asking, then find another relevant set of coordinates. At least something! And what about quoting the name itself of the transit agency? Isn't it using a trademark on a third party website without authorization of the owner of the trademark? I would say no based on the fact that google seems to have the authorization to display almost anything about a company when you search for it - on google, but still... Thank you in advance for your help, and sorry if I insist like that on the not asking the authorization thing: I only believe that it could make the gathering of at least some data...much much faster, and the coverage of the transiki map, at least in its poorest informative power, could be really great much more quickly, if we can achieve it legally. And besides, it would need much less effort, than if we always had to negociate with every single transit agency, to get any single piece of their data, especially if
