Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Matt Wilkie]

>
> I'm surprised at no comments on solid after the discussion of RESTful apps 
> and why you would want them re: flexx 
>

I expect it's because no one has had the time to do more than glance it at 
and it takes some time to dig in and see what's going on. Some of the 
extant examples are underwhelming at first click or two; lotsa scaffolding, 
not much paint, hard to envision it's purpose and consequent beauty. This 
isn't necessarily surprising. There's been a number of "hey this is cool!!" 
posts on the list before which meet with silence and then resurface months 
or years later with renewed vigor. (Observable 
for a current notable instance.)

Matt

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sat, Jan 5, 2019 at 7:40 AM John Griessen  wrote:

I'm surprised at no comments on solid after the discussion of RESTful apps
> and why you would want them re: flexx
>
> A REST API may not be very human readable/usable, but along with some
> crypto, allows read write web actions.
>

flexx allows two-way interactions between the desktop (a server) and the
browser. Are you saying that only restful interactions are secure?

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[John Griessen]

On 12/11/18 3:43 PM, Matt Wilkie wrote:
https://www.inrupt.com/blog/one-small-step-for-the-web -- /"This is why I have, over recent years, been working with a few people 
at MIT and elsewhere to develop Solid , an open-source project to restore the power and agency of 
individuals on the web./


I'm surprised at no comments on solid after the discussion of RESTful apps and 
why you would want them re: flexx

A REST API may not be very human readable/usable, but along with some crypto, 
allows read write web actions.
Read write web actions are what solid is about.


https://github.com/solid/solid-spec
"Solid (derived from "social linked data") is a proposed set of conventions and tools for building decentralized social 
applications based on Linked Data principles. Solid is modular and extensible. It relies as much as possible on existing W3C 
standards and protocols."


https://solid.inrupt.com/docs/intro-to-solid-spec
"Solid is a set of modular specifications, which build on, and extend the founding technology of the world wide web (HTTP, REST, 
HTML). They are 100% backwards compatible with the existing web. Each spec, taken in isolation, provides extra features to an 
existing system.  However, when used in combination, they enable exciting new possibilities for web sites and applications."


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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Matt Wilkie]

>
> Err, I don't think Edward is suggesting taking away the option of running 
>> Leo 'fully standalone', if that is your use case. It is more for extending 
>> it when the other configurations make sense.
>>
>
> No, I never thought of that. This question is engaging me because I'm 
> working on an application of my own where I have almost the same decisions 
> to make. 
>

https://www.inrupt.com/blog/one-small-step-for-the-web -- *"This is why I 
have, over recent years, been working with a few people at MIT and 
elsewhere to develop Solid , an open-source 
project to restore the power and agency of individuals on the web.Solid 
changes the current model where users have to hand over personal data to 
digital giants in exchange for perceived value. ... *
*a platform, built using the existing web. It gives every user a choice 
about where data is stored, which specific people and groups can access 
select elements, and which apps you use. It allows you, your family and 
colleagues, to link and share data with anyone. It allows people to look at 
the same data with different apps at the same time." -- Tim Berners-Lee*

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[jkn]

On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:58:13 AM UTC, rengel wrote:
>
> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:02:46 PM UTC+1, Matt Wilkie wrote:
>>
>> I'm picking out a single element to comment on, just because that's 
>> something I have a thought on right now. The rest of the sentiments are 
>> worth pondering too, especially the point about the difference between and 
>> user data and application.
>>
>> The ability to run Leo in the browser. Obviously for this I need a 
>>> browser, but I don't need any local Leo code.
>>>
>>
>> There's a further distinction here: Not needing Qt. Browsers are more 
>> universally available. Qt is problematic to source and install at times.
>>
>>
> Agreed! But that's not my main concern. Even if Leo (or any other app) 
> runs in the browser you need some GUI framework (if you don't want to 
> hand-code all the JavaScript, HTML and CSS yourself).
> There are (at least) three main issues:
> - loading the software locally vs. remotely
> - running the software standalone or in a browser,
> - storing and accessing the data locally or remotely,
> giving eight possible permutations, each having its own advantages and 
> disadvantages. Before any serious commitments, each should be evaluated in 
> some detail.
> IMO, running an app in the browser only makes sense, when one wants to 
> serve the software across the web with every session. This implies that the 
> Internet will be available - always and everywhere.
> Given the political climate today, for important company or personal data 
> I wouldn't bet on the guaranteed availability of all cloud services, 
> software, or libraries across the Internet. Today People and Companies are 
> cut off from important services (Facebook, Twitter, PayPal, credit card 
> companies, i.e. YouTube: 'This video is not available in your country.'). 
> What happens, if your Leo data happen to contain some terms that are 
> 'politically incorrect'? 
> Only software and data that you can still use when all connections are 
> cut, are truly yours. Of course, if you want to serve your data to people 
> around the world, you need the Internet. But was Leo designed with this 
> purpose in mind (the 'P' in PIM)?
> But I digress.
> Again, more succinctly:
> Why should I run a local browser-based version of Leo to access local data 
> (using the file system or a local or in-house server), if a proven local 
> standalone version is available?
>
>
Err, I don't think Edward is suggesting taking away the option of running 
Leo 'fully standalone', if that is your use case. It is more for extending 
it when the other configurations make sense.

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[rengel]

On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 10:02:46 PM UTC+1, Matt Wilkie wrote:
>
> I'm picking out a single element to comment on, just because that's 
> something I have a thought on right now. The rest of the sentiments are 
> worth pondering too, especially the point about the difference between and 
> user data and application.
>
> The ability to run Leo in the browser. Obviously for this I need a 
>> browser, but I don't need any local Leo code.
>>
>
> There's a further distinction here: Not needing Qt. Browsers are more 
> universally available. Qt is problematic to source and install at times.
>
>
Agreed! But that's not my main concern. Even if Leo (or any other app) runs 
in the browser you need some GUI framework (if you don't want to hand-code 
all the JavaScript, HTML and CSS yourself).
There are (at least) three main issues:
- loading the software locally vs. remotely
- running the software standalone or in a browser,
- storing and accessing the data locally or remotely,
giving eight possible permutations, each having its own advantages and 
disadvantages. Before any serious commitments, each should be evaluated in 
some detail.
IMO, running an app in the browser only makes sense, when one wants to 
serve the software across the web with every session. This implies that the 
Internet will be available - always and everywhere.
Given the political climate today, for important company or personal data I 
wouldn't bet on the guaranteed availability of all cloud services, 
software, or libraries across the Internet. Today People and Companies are 
cut off from important services (Facebook, Twitter, PayPal, credit card 
companies, i.e. YouTube: 'This video is not available in your country.').
Only software and data that you can still use when all connections are cut, 
are truly yours. Of course, if you want to serve your data to people around 
the world, you need the Internet. But was Leo designed with this purpose in 
mind (the 'P' in PIM)? 

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Matt Wilkie]

I'm picking out a single element to comment on, just because that's 
something I have a thought on right now. The rest of the sentiments are 
worth pondering too, especially the point about the difference between and 
user data and application.

The ability to run Leo in the browser. Obviously for this I need a browser, 
> but I don't need any local Leo code.
>

There's a further distinction here: Not needing Qt. Browsers are more 
universally available. Qt is problematic to source and install at times.

Matt

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[rengel]

I'm still struggling with the question 'Why should I want to run Leo in a 
Browser?'.

IMO, LeoWapp is mingling two issues that are only remotely related:


   - The ability to remotely access Leo files that are stored somewhere on 
   some remote server. Any number of apps or programming languages provide 
   this functionality using http or websockets. For this, I don't need a 
   browser but a local (client-side) app, that is downloaded and installed 
   once, and then can be used to access the remote data. The client can be 
   written using any language/gui combination that one deems suitable to the 
   task. The only component that is needed in addition, is the one that 
   provides access to the web.
   - The ability to run Leo in the browser. Obviously for this I need a 
   browser, but I don't need any local Leo code. Instead Leo is served by the 
   'Way of the Browser': Enter an URL; get the application across the web; 
   then start working with your data. This way, one only needs one copy of the 
   Leo software, that has to be available 365/24/7 from some remote server. 
   Who is then responsible for maintaining this service? OTH: Leo as a web 
   service leads you right into the 'web application hell'; you are piling 
   library upon library upon library, always with some nagging doubts: Do I 
   bet on the 'right' libraries (Angular, React, Vue, Flask, Flexx, Phosphor, 
   ...)? Aren't there to many dependencies (50MB and more just for a 'Hello 
   world')? What if they are not updated any more (you might be out of luck)? 
   Do they offer all the features I want for my app (most don't)? How do I 
   provide for missing features (learn yet another language/framework)? And 
   some more...
   
So again: Do I want remote access to Leo data and a local copy of Leo or do 
I want both Leo and Leo data serve and use using a browser? 
For my part, I'm quite happy to work with a local copy of Leo. And it would 
be nice to have a database/server-based backend (local client software + 
remote server data).
No need for 'Leo as a service'.

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 4:59:13 PM UTC-6, pimgeek wrote:
>
> - How important?
>
>   - So important that I may contribute code for it in the future.
>

Thanks for these comments.  It's good to know.

Joe and I have been discussing whether leoflexx.py will be the basis for 
the merger of LeoVue and Leo.  However, leoflexx.py will remain the basis 
LeoWapp for the foreseeable future..  leoflexx.py isn't ready for prime 
time yet, but it's not that far away either.  Any help you could give on 
leoflexx.py would be greatly appreciated.

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[pimgeek]

- How important?
  - So important that I may contribute code for it in future.

- How would I use it?
  - I've been searching for note-taking tools which support DAG data 
structure editing, so that I can organize my thought fragments in a 
non-linear flexible way. When non-linear editing is not a problem, I would 
like to publish a subset of my notes online(with comment box for getting 
feedback) in order to share my thoughts and attract readers and 
collaborators.
  - Currently I've purchased TheBrain10 Pro, which can satisify much of my 
needs. However, it's close-sourced software and doesn't provide API access, 
so I have to use its Cloud Publishing service and somewhat limited default 
web interface(node and line graph view), which is not ideal for me.
  - But here comes leoWapp project, it seems I can achieve my goals without 
locking down my data to a proprietary database, so it's like a very 
promising alternative solution. (I've used leo-editor client app for a 
while and know it's highly customizable)

Hope this helps. :-)

在 2018年12月4日星期二 UTC+8下午11:37:26，Edward K. Ream写道：
>
> As I explain here 
> , there 
> is no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be made into a commercial 
> app. 
>
> That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:
>
> - How important is the LeoWapp project 
>  to you?
> - How likely are you to use it?
>
> I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any 
> case, but I'd like to get your responses first.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Wednesday, December 5, 2018 at 8:36:59 PM UTC-6, Zoom.Quiet wrote:
>
> Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed... 
>

I've added this to #1005: Use the redraw-list to speed redrawing.

However, I'm not sure this will help you, and there is probably nothing 
more that I can do.  Most of the code is flexx code.

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Zoom.Quiet]

Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed, Speed...

for me when Qt Leo included more then 100+ files, 5000+ nodes,
will block some time,
but my env. is mscOS with 16G memory
so like chrome, can eat more and more memory,
but pls. give us more and more speed.


Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)  于2018年12月6日周四 上午9:44写道：
>
> For me LeoWapp is a total game changer! As I mentioned in the past, some of 
> the important missing points I find in Leo are easier access to node's 
> additional data (like tags, attribs or links) and a more integrated 
> (co-located) visualization of this data.
>
> I tried in the past learning the Leo Qt GUI internals with the hope of 
> customizing it by myself, but found it quite difficult. With LeoWapp now I 
> see this goal much easier to achieve as I have a much better experience with 
> web development techlogies (like React).
>
> The better client-server achitecture of Leo you've set up for LeoWapp opens 
> also other new integration options for Leo like creating browser extensions 
> to connect with Leo... it's a whole new world!
>
> Thanks again for all these new possibilities you've opened with LeoWapp!
> Xavier
>
> On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 12:37:26 PM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>>
>> As I explain here, there is no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be 
>> made into a commercial app.
>>
>> That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:
>>
>> - How important is the LeoWapp project to you?
>> - How likely are you to use it?
>>
>> I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any case, 
>> but I'd like to get your responses first.
>>
>> Edward
>
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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Xavier G. Domingo (xgid)]

For me LeoWapp is a total game changer! As I mentioned in the past, some of 
the important missing points I find in Leo are easier access to node's 
additional data (like tags, attribs or links) and a more integrated 
(co-located) visualization of this data.

I tried in the past learning the Leo Qt GUI internals with the hope of 
customizing it by myself, but found it quite difficult. With LeoWapp now I 
see this goal much easier to achieve as I have a much better experience 
with web development techlogies (like React).

The better client-server achitecture of Leo you've set up for LeoWapp opens 
also other new integration options for Leo like creating browser extensions 
to connect with Leo... it's a whole new world!

Thanks again for all these new possibilities you've opened with LeoWapp!
Xavier

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 12:37:26 PM UTC-3, Edward K. Ream wrote:
>
> As I explain here 
> , there 
> is no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be made into a commercial 
> app. 
>
> That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:
>
> - How important is the LeoWapp project 
>  to you?
> - How likely are you to use it?
>
> I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any 
> case, but I'd like to get your responses first.
>
> Edward
>

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 8:10:43 PM UTC-6, Chris George wrote:
>
> My use case:
>
> 1. Set up webserver on local machine.
> 2. Install Leo, including all prereqs.
> 3. Login via https from my phone or tablet or laptop from wherever.
> 4. Live my life.
>
> Security is a non-issue as the webserver guys have already done a good 
> enough job of it and I will have full control of the server.
>
> No need for python on the remote device which makes it accessible without 
> standing on my head to shoehorn a full python environment into a wee little 
> device. As a writer I have no need for python other than to get Leo up and 
> running.
>
 
No need for a gui on the remote device, either.

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 6:42:12 PM UTC-6, Rob wrote:
>
>
> - How important is the LeoWapp project 
>>  to you?
>>
> Could be *very* important to me if it means I can open and edit .leo files 
> on a machine which does not have the standard Leo QT environment installed; 
> just open a browser. 
>

Yes. In fact, LeoWapp could be used on "headless" servers, without any gui 
at all.

- How likely are you to use it?
>>
> Given my assumptions above, I would definitely use it.
>
> Of course, I may be making completely wrong assumptions about what LeoWapp 
> can and will do.
>

There are no hidden gotchas, afaik. Thanks for your comments.

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 2:13:12 PM UTC-6, jkn wrote:

I have a strong interest in the technical feasibility of LeoWapp - I want 
> to be able to write Python apps for a browser - but
> specifically as regards Leo, my use cases are similar to Kent's.
>

Thanks for the comments.  As I have described elsewhere, the immediate 
technical feasibility of LeoWapp is now assured.

Expanding the vision, I believe flexx can do *anything *that can be done in 
JS.  I just now realized that this means, for example:

RawJS('var Vue = require("vue");')

This means, I think, that it *would* be possible to integrate Joe Orr's 
work into LeoWapp.  It might take considerable work, a lot of using flexx's 
RawJS construct.

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 11:04:57 AM UTC-6, Offray Vladimir Luna 
Cárdenas wrote:

I think that the best way to answer the question would be to give kind of a 
> simple bootstrapping process to launch the LeoWapp. Something like:
>
> 1. cd /my/leo/folder
>
> 2. git update something (or the option that git has for that).
>
> 3. launchLeo.py -gui web (or the proper launcher).
>

   python launchLeo.py --gui=browser

4. Load some of Joe's Leo files to test LeoWapp (or any proper file that 
> showcase the possibilities that LeoWapp opens).
>

That's what I have been calling "meeting LeoVue in the middle". You can 
certainly load any .leo file from LeoWapp now.  Or rather, you will soon be 
able to do that once I fix a bug ;-)

However, you won't be able to render those files as LeoVue does, because 
LeoVue uses vue.js and lots of other cool JS technologies.  LeoWapp just 
uses the ace editor.

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 10:32:22 AM UTC-6, Kent Tenney wrote:

Is the intention to offer all capability of QT Leo?
>

Yes, except for Qt-only plugins. That is, the framework to offer all of 
Leo's existing capabilities is finished.  Only the relatively small nits in 
the to-do list remain.

As I write this, I see that adding more sub-panes to the log pane would be 
useful, to show typing completions and for other purposes.

Off hand, my interest would be in running LeoWapp on text only 
> server machines, accessing from my desktop machine.
>

This seems to be the main use case.  

Also interesting would be editing files served at home while at
> work.
>

Or anywhere else.

I'm not aware of advantages of a browser gui over the QT gui
> if I'm only working locally.
>

There probably aren't any. The ace JS editor is good, but probably doesn't 
offer compelling advantages over Leo's existing body pane.

Longer term, it might be possible to use LeoWapp to meet Joe Orr's work "in 
the middle".

Edward

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Chris George]

My use case:

1. Set up webserver on local machine.
2. Install Leo, including all prereqs.
3. Login via https from my phone or tablet or laptop from wherever.
4. Live my life.

Security is a non-issue as the webserver guys have already done a good
enough job of it and I will have full control of the server.

No need for python on the remote device which makes it accessible without
standing on my head to shoehorn a full python environment into a wee little
device. As a writer I have no need for python other than to get Leo up and
running.

Chris

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 4:42 PM Rob  wrote:

> Based on what little I can discern about the project (haven't actually
> used it yet), my initial thoughts are:
>
> - How important is the LeoWapp project
>>  to you?
>>
> Could be *very* important to me if it means I can open and edit .leo files
> on a machine which does not have the standard Leo QT environment installed;
> just open a browser.
>
>> - How likely are you to use it?
>>
> Given my assumptions above, I would definitely use it.
>
> Of course, I may be making completely wrong assumptions about what LeoWapp
> can and will do.
>
>
> Rob...
>
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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Rob]

Based on what little I can discern about the project (haven't actually used 
it yet), my initial thoughts are:

- How important is the LeoWapp project 
>  to you?
>
Could be *very* important to me if it means I can open and edit .leo files 
on a machine which does not have the standard Leo QT environment installed; 
just open a browser. 

> - How likely are you to use it?
>
Given my assumptions above, I would definitely use it.

Of course, I may be making completely wrong assumptions about what LeoWapp 
can and will do.


Rob...

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[jkn]

On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 at 4:32:22 PM UTC, Kent Tenney wrote:
>
> Is the intention to offer all capability of QT Leo?
> - more important for greybeards than newbies
>
> Off hand, my interest would be in running LeoWapp on text only 
> server machines, accessing from my desktop machine.
> Security could be managed because both would be on the same
> subnet, or routed locally.
>
> Also interesting would be editing files served at home while at
> work. Here security would be more challenging. I haven't yet
> had interest in sharing access to Leo via internet, but if it was
> possible that might change. 
>
> I'm not aware of advantages of a browser gui over the QT gui
> if I'm only working locally.
>
> Thanks,
> Kent
>
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 9:37 AM Edward K. Ream  > wrote:
>
>> As I explain here 
>> , there 
>> is no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be made into a commercial 
>> app. 
>>
>> That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:
>>
>> - How important is the LeoWapp project 
>>  to you?
>> - How likely are you to use it?
>>
>> I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any 
>> case, but I'd like to get your responses first.
>>
>> Edward
>>
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>>
>
I have a strong interest in the technical feasibility of LeoWapp - I want 
to be able to write Python apps for a browser - but
specifically as regards Leo, my use cases are similar to Kent's

J^n

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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas]

I think that the best way to answer the question would be to give kind
of a simple bootstrapping process to launch the LeoWapp. Something like:

1. cd /my/leo/folder

2. git update something (or the option that git has for that).

3. launchLeo.py -gui web (or the proper launcher).

4. Load some of Joe's Leo files to test LeoWapp (or any proper file that
showcase the possibilities that LeoWapp opens).

Without any simple test, I could answer, in kind of an abstract fashion,
that bridging Leo and the Web is important, to bring rendering and
interactive capabilities from the Web to Leo and to bring Leo outlining
capabilities to the Web, but I would like to test it fluently by myself.

Cheers.

Offray

On 4/12/18 10:37, Edward K. Ream wrote:
> As I explain here
> ,
> there is no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be made into a
> commercial app.
>
> That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:
>
> - How important is the LeoWapp project
>  to you?
> - How likely are you to use it?
>
> I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any
> case, but I'd like to get your responses first.
>
> Edward
> -- 
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Re: How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Kent Tenney]

Is the intention to offer all capability of QT Leo?
- more important for greybeards than newbies

Off hand, my interest would be in running LeoWapp on text only
server machines, accessing from my desktop machine.
Security could be managed because both would be on the same
subnet, or routed locally.

Also interesting would be editing files served at home while at
work. Here security would be more challenging. I haven't yet
had interest in sharing access to Leo via internet, but if it was
possible that might change.

I'm not aware of advantages of a browser gui over the QT gui
if I'm only working locally.

Thanks,
Kent

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 9:37 AM Edward K. Ream  wrote:

> As I explain here
> , there
> is no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be made into a commercial
> app.
>
> That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:
>
> - How important is the LeoWapp project
>  to you?
> - How likely are you to use it?
>
> I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any
> case, but I'd like to get your responses first.
>
> Edward
>
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>

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How important is LeoWapp to you?

[Edward K. Ream]

As I explain here 
, there is 
no doubt in my mind that leoflexx.py could be made into a commercial app. 

That being so, now is a good time to ask you these questions:

- How important is the LeoWapp project 
 to you?
- How likely are you to use it?

I'll probably continue work on LeoWapp for the next week or so in any case, 
but I'd like to get your responses first.

Edward

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