[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |ASSIGNED
   Assignee|libreoffice-b...@lists.free |philip...@hotmail.com
   |desktop.org |

--- Comment #47 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
Patch is in - https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/37925/

(In reply to Darius Daniel Grigoras from comment #46)
> Though I use this feature a lot, this is not an issue considering that I was
> able to insert this command as a button on the Standard toolbar next to the
> "Clone formatting" button. I prefer the button to the context menu.

I had hoped to add it next to 'Clone Formatting', but presently it only works
for text (bug 107319).

> This command is a standard button displayed by default in MS Word and should
> become a default button on the Standard toolbar of LO Writer.

It has been a default button in the formatting toolbar since LibreOffice 5.0.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||107318


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107318
[Bug 107318] [META] Clone formatting and Clear direct formatting issues
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #46 from Darius Daniel Grigoras  ---
I just upgraded and noticed that the "Clear direct formatting" context menu
option was removed.
Though I use this feature a lot, this is not an issue considering that I was
able to insert this command as a button on the Standard toolbar next to the
"Clone formatting" button. I prefer the button to the context menu.
This command is a standard button displayed by default in MS Word and should
become a default button on the Standard toolbar of LO Writer.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #45 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #44)
>   ... (some more)
>   – – – – – – – – – 
>   Clear Direct Formatting
>   Styles > ..
>   Edit Style
> 
> reasons:
> - If clear direct formatting should be with styles, it must be with Edit
> Style too.
> - Edit style is used often and I would not like hiding it

Yes they should be together and placing them in a submenu isnt hiding them, its
organizing them and making the best use of space. You asked about the
organization in bug 85940 comment 9, which i did reply to, so lets go with
that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #44 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #35)
> Decision was made in the design team on Oct/14 to bring back the
> functionality in the context menu but move it into the upcoming styles
> submenu. Reason to do so is that we have remove direct formatting in the
> toolbar now and want to promote styles in general.

So we have three context menus where this is relevant:
normal context; table; text box

In normal text and tables, the lower part of the context menu is:
  Character
  Paragraph
  ... (some more)
  – – – – – – – – – 
  Edit Style

In a text box it is
  Character
  Paragraph
(no style applied there)

For normal and table I suggest the following:

  ... (some more)
  – – – – – – – – – 
  Clear Direct Formatting
  Styles > ..
  Edit Style

reasons:
- If clear direct formatting should be with styles, it must be with Edit Style
too.
- Edit style is used often and I would not like hiding it

For a text box I suggests to simply add
  Clear Direct Formatting
at the bottom. No styling involved (Writer/currently)

Opinions?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

Kumāra  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||kumara.bhik...@gmail.com

--- Comment #43 from Kumāra  ---
Wow... Pretty serious argument over one context menu item.

I don't need it but would still vote to have it back in the menu. (I use the
function with a toolbar icon I added.)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #42 from Cor Nouws  ---
perfectly fine for me to adapt the patch (comment #33) to make a submenu Styles
with at least some character styles.
  Bug 85940 - Accessing paragraph and character styles from context menu

If this needs more time (> few weeks?), I suggest to push the patch as is for
the moment. OK?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

Peter Beurle  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||peter.beu...@bigpond.com.au

--- Comment #41 from Peter Beurle  ---
Hurray, its back. Super handy for cleaning up other peoples documents.(In reply
to Heiko Tietze from comment #35)
> Decision was made in the design team on Oct/14 to bring back the
> functionality in the context menu but move it into the upcoming styles
> submenu. Reason to do so is that we have remove direct formatting in the
> toolbar now and want to promote styles in general.

Hurray

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #40 from Octavio Alvarez  ---
A reminder:

This is just about restoring Clear Direct Formatting from the context menu.
This *does not imply* removing it from anywhere else.

People will still have many other options for using this, like Ctrl+M the
toolbar and the Format menu.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #39 from tagezi  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #37)
> (In reply to tagezi from comment #36)
> > (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #35)
> > > Decision was made in the design team on Oct/14 to bring back the
> > > functionality in the context menu but move it into the upcoming styles
> > > submenu. Reason to do so is that we have remove direct formatting in the
> > > toolbar now and want to promote styles in general.
> > 
> > How many time will people spend to click the item from the submenu?
> 
> It's good to have it ready at top in the submenu I think yes.

I need to make speed measurement. I can not do speed measurements now, it takes
time. I made measurements on the taskbar, and keyboard shortcuts, and this has
led to very poor performance.
Reasoning without measurement, is a waste of time.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #38 from m.a.riosv  ---
Sometimes it's not easy for me to understand why changes are done, but

(In reply to tagezi from comment #36)
> How many time will people spend to click the item from the submenu?

Almost the same, sub-menus open without click.

> It is not that there are the item in the menu or not. There are a large
> number of documents, which requires the removing of direct formatting,
> because they were made by ... Why if someone does not know how to work in
> the Writer, people who are able to work have to spend time?

If someone doesn't know she/he needs to learn, people able to work has another
quicker ways like [Ctrl+M]

> Your promotion styles, does not remove the direct formatting from the
> documents, which were made since 97 year in MSO.

I hope so.

> The problem is that the movement of the cursor or the hand of two seconds,
> poured to a quarter of an hour per a page. And when you want to remove
> direct formatting and assign a style for multi-page document, this movement
> begins to take hours.

Are you talking about removing the direct format word by word. I think it's
easy Menu/Edit/Select All [Ctrl+A]
and then
Menu/Format/Clear direct formating [Ctrl+M],
to get the whole document's body clear of direct formatting.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #37 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to tagezi from comment #36)
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #35)
> > Decision was made in the design team on Oct/14 to bring back the
> > functionality in the context menu but move it into the upcoming styles
> > submenu. Reason to do so is that we have remove direct formatting in the
> > toolbar now and want to promote styles in general.
> 
> How many time will people spend to click the item from the submenu?

It's good to have it ready at top in the submenu I think yes.

> It is not that there are the item in the menu or not. There are a large
> number of documents, which requires the removing of direct formatting,
> because they were made by ... Why if someone does not know how to work in
> the Writer, people who are able to work have to spend time?

If there is so much direct formatting in a file, I guess removing all is what
is needed, not remove some and keep some other? Isn't it that then one can
simply select large parts and clear at once?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #36 from tagezi  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #35)
> Decision was made in the design team on Oct/14 to bring back the
> functionality in the context menu but move it into the upcoming styles
> submenu. Reason to do so is that we have remove direct formatting in the
> toolbar now and want to promote styles in general.

How many time will people spend to click the item from the submenu?
It is not that there are the item in the menu or not. There are a large number
of documents, which requires the removing of direct formatting, because they
were made by ... Why if someone does not know how to work in the Writer, people
who are able to work have to spend time?

Your promotion styles, does not remove the direct formatting from the
documents, which were made since 97 year in MSO.
The problem is that the movement of the cursor or the hand of two seconds,
poured to a quarter of an hour per a page. And when you want to remove direct
formatting and assign a style for multi-page document, this movement begins to
take hours.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #35 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Decision was made in the design team on Oct/14 to bring back the functionality
in the context menu but move it into the upcoming styles submenu. Reason to do
so is that we have remove direct formatting in the toolbar now and want to
promote styles in general.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #34 from Octavio Alvarez  ---
As a heavy user of styles, I'll allow myself to state that "Clear Direct
Formatting" is way too useful as a styles-related tool. Even though it affects
DF only, the tool is used in the context of styles.

The reason is really simple: without the existence of styles, "Direct
Formatting" just becomes "Formatting" and the need for "Clear Direct
Formatting" turns into "Clear All Formatting", without the distinction between
the two types of formatting. So there is a reason why the command only clears
direct formatting and nothing more.

Also, as I said on bug #86606 c18 [1], the statement that "Direct formatting
has been removed from the default configuration of the context menu" is false.
For it to be true, the items "Character" and "Paragraph" should be removed too
from the menu. Those are nothing more than Direct Formatting.

My guess is that the intention was to remove "individual directly-applicable
formatting attributes" from the context menu, like Font, Size, Bold, etc.

Furthermore, it is known that the Design Team has the intention of promoting
the use of styles. For people willing to learn, the appearance of the words
"Direct Formatting" in a menu as prominent as the context menu lets people
grasp the idea that there is some particular kind of formatting that is called
"direct", and in consequence, there has to be another kind of non-direct
formatting. This, in turn, helps people understand that there are *two* ways to
apply formatting attributes to text.

In conclusion, the given arguments for removal make no sense and I consider it
an unfortunate design decision. Restoring the option to the context menu would
be the best way to proceed.

[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86606#c18

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #33 from Cor Nouws  ---
to facilitate fast resolving of this issue, I've already prepared a little
patch in gerrit: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/29526

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #32 from Alex Thurgood  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #31)

> 
> from comment #26: "A toolbar is not a context menu.
> The context menu can be started without moving the mouse, and even without
> using the mouse (properties key or extra in LibreOffice Shift+F10)
> Further more: as people access the context menu often, there is a good
> change they will discover the item in the neatly trimmed context menu
> (compared to the richly filled tool bar), thus enhancing the use of tools
> for working with clear (... ;) ) styles."

Agreed, my point exactly :-)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #31 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Alex Thurgood from comment #30)
> I would add a question as to whether anyone gave any thought to those with
> motor difficulties or RSI where having to move the mouse cursor up to the
> Styles dialog and clicking on Remove formatting is far more of a pain than
> right mouse button clicking on the offending point in the document,
> generally where one is editing, and choosing the same command from the
> context menu ?

from comment #26: "A toolbar is not a context menu.
The context menu can be started without moving the mouse, and even without
using the mouse (properties key or extra in LibreOffice Shift+F10)
Further more: as people access the context menu often, there is a good change
they will discover the item in the neatly trimmed context menu (compared to the
richly filled tool bar), thus enhancing the use of tools for working with clear
(... ;) ) styles."

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #30 from Alex Thurgood  ---
I would add a question as to whether anyone gave any thought to those with
motor difficulties or RSI where having to move the mouse cursor up to the
Styles dialog and clicking on Remove formatting is far more of a pain than
right mouse button clicking on the offending point in the document, generally
where one is editing, and choosing the same command from the context menu ?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #29 from Alex Thurgood  ---
My concern here is that there has been an assumption that deleting the entry
from the context menu will somehow orient users to apply styles rather than
direct formatting.

For that to be the case, the styles have to work reproducibly and reliably.
This is clearly not the case with the default Title/Header styles at least, and
the "workaround" given on the bug report associated with incorrect application
of Title/Header styles was to use the "Clear formatting" command. This
particular bug (I don't have the reference right now), FWIW, is still around
today.

One can not and should not be a proponent of a workaround for a given bug and
then make access to the tool required to apply the workaround more difficult.
It defeats user expectations and leads to disenchantment in user perception of
the development process.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #28 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
I add my five cents:

Yousuf wanted delete from context menu ALL item for manual formatting.

But the idea of removing the possibility of direct formatting from the context
menu involves the removal of items to CREATE a direct formatting. Is not it so? 
Item "Clear Direct Formatting" uses for DELETE manual formatting and helps user
in the work with styles

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10
   ||0604

--- Comment #27 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #24)
> Since Heiko has the user survey linked here, makes more sense to close bug
> 102141 as a the duplicate regards this enhancement request and discussion of
> restoring a "Clear Direct Formatting" .uno:ReesetAttributes based entry on
> the Writer context menu.

As this bug was opened afterwards and the discussion of whether it was
intentional or not was addressed there as you asked in comment 8, this was
marked as the duplicate. When it comes to the g+ survey, i wouldnt place that
much faith in the results due to the limited scope of the audience, the
question asked and the lack of additional questions like :-

do you use this command?
how often do you use the command?
do you use the shortcut key?
where do you primarily activate this command?
what version of LO are you running?
have you seen/used the command in the toolbar?
is it better to have this command in the toolbar or context menu?

This command has low usage metrics, isnt important enough to be in all three
locations (menu, toolbar, context menu), and takes up valuable space which is
against the HIG. 

(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #26)
> First: all (maybe all but one) of the mentioned links do _not_ discuss at
> all why 'Clear Direct Formatting'  should be removed or not.

Yes no explicitly talk about the removal of that specific entry. I removed it
based on the toolbar, menu and context menu reorganization work I did based on
the OOo usage metrics.

> I've checked ~40 minutes from 2014/2015 and there was no mention of any
> discussion or whether or not to remove 'Clead Direct Formatting'.
> Of course I may have missed it, in which case I would appreciate to learn
> the arguments.

No there was no discussion in the meetings regarding this particular entry, it
was about removing direct formatting entries in general (bug 86606).

> Second: also other linked issues (here or in 102915) do not have any
> argumentation on the subject.

I assume you meant bug 102141 and the issue being addressed was whether it was
intentional or not, which stuart also asked here in comment 8.

> Third, In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #22)
> The argument was that all direct formatting items were removed.

Yes all direct formatting that is available in the toolbars and isnt behind a
dialog.

> It is a powerful tool to work with styles properly.
> I'm really sorry that I have to type such an obvious argument down.

Seems we are talking about different things here.

> A toolbar is not a context menu.
> The context menu can be started without moving the mouse, and even without
> using the mouse (properties key or extra in LibreOffice Shift+F10)
> Further more: as people access the context menu often, there is a good
> change they will discover the item in the neatly trimmed context menu
> (compared to the richly filled tool bar), thus enhancing the use of tools
> for working with clear (... ;) ) styles.

Things are more discoverable and more used in the toolbar than they will be in
the context menu because they are in plain sight and dont require the opening
of the context menu for discoverability.

> You kindly asked him to do so in your comment from December 15 2015.
> I see no trace however of deliberate choice to remove the function.

https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/20446/1/sw/source/ui/app/mn.src@135

> As written before: 
> - there is no separate discussion on removing the choice 'Clead Direct
> Formatting'.
> - access to the toolbar cannot be considered equal to access to the context
> menu.

Yes they arent equal. Access through the toolbar is many times higher.

> Fourth: comment #c19
> 76% of 125 votes say yes to the question "Do you need the function "Clear
> Direct Formatting" in Writer's context menu?"

Read above about my thoughts of the survey.

Would suggest this discussion be taken to the weekly meeting, so that all
points can be discussed and voted on.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #26 from Cor Nouws  ---
Hi all,

Sorry for the long read.
Thanks for reopening Stuart and Jay and Stuart for showing links for
discussion.

Reasons I see for restoring the item:

 = = = =
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102141#4)
> See discussions for removal in ...

First: all (maybe all but one) of the mentioned links do _not_ discuss at all
why 'Clear Direct Formatting'  should be removed or not.

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102141#4)
> See discussions for removal in UX Design minutes and in

I've checked ~40 minutes from 2014/2015 and there was no mention of any
discussion or whether or not to remove 'Clead Direct Formatting'.
Of course I may have missed it, in which case I would appreciate to learn the
arguments.

> bug 81132
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/1
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/13214
> 
> and finalized
> bug 86606
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/14979

 = = = =
Second: also other linked issues (here or in 102915) do not have any
argumentation on the subject.

 = = = =

Third, In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #22)

> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #7)
> > Few things that I notice:
> > 1. Dialogs Character, Paragraph and Bullets and Numbering are also direct
> > formatting tools. And present in the context menu.
> 
> They are present as they arent in the toolbars and are only available in the
> menus.

The argument was that all direct formatting items were removed.

> > 2. Clear Direct Formatting is to be considered a styles tool.
> 
> Its a direct formatting tool as it doesnt affect styles.

It is a powerful tool to work with styles properly.
I'm really sorry that I have to type such an obvious argument down.

> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12)
> > Clear Direct Formatting is maybe not that often used, but at least as
> > important.
> 
> Definitely important enough that it was added to the toolbars.

A toolbar is not a context menu.
The context menu can be started without moving the mouse, and even without
using the mouse (properties key or extra in LibreOffice Shift+F10)
Further more: as people access the context menu often, there is a good change
they will discover the item in the neatly trimmed context menu (compared to the
richly filled tool bar), thus enhancing the use of tools for working with clear
(... ;) ) styles.

> (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #14)
> > Did Maxim overshoot during conversion of the context menus for
> > customization? Should a "Clear Direct Formatting" be included by default on
> > the context menu?
> 
> So I was removing it in 5.1/5.2 in this patch (
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/20446/ ) and Maxim suggested i not push
> it in as it would conflict with his work and he would incorporate my changes
> into his patch.

You kindly asked him to do so in your comment from December 15 2015.
I see no trace however of deliberate choice to remove the function.

> (In reply to tagezi from comment #11)
> > I'm sorry, but that you have indicated there is no new information. Removing
> > the item is not only logical, but also harmful. And the fact that the design
> > team did not see such a simple thing very frustrating. I feel that with this
> > approach, the design team will create us something like MSO - absolutely not
> > usability thing.
> 
> The discussion regarding the removal of direct formatting entries is in bug
> 81132 and i removed the entry from the context menu once it was added into
> the formatting toolbar. With easy access to the option in the toolbar, it
> shouldnt be available in the context menu.

As written before: 
- there is no separate discussion on removing the choice 'Clead Direct
Formatting'.
- access to the toolbar cannot be considered equal to access to the context
menu.

 = = = =

Fourth: comment #c19
76% of 125 votes say yes to the question "Do you need the function "Clear
Direct Formatting" in Writer's context menu?"

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #25 from Cor Nouws  ---
Hi all,

Sorry for the long read.
Thanks for reopening Stuart and Jay and Stuart for showing links for
discussion.

Reasons I see for restoring the item:

 = = = =
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #4)
> See discussions for removal in ...

First: all (maybe all but one) of the mentioned links do _not_ discuss at all
why 'Clear Direct Formatting'  should be removed or not.

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #4)
> See discussions for removal in UX Design minutes and in

I've checked ~40 minutes from 2014/2015 and there was no mention of any
discussion or whether or not to remove 'Clead Direct Formatting'.
Of course I may have missed it, in which case I would appreciate to learn the
arguments.

> bug 81132
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/1
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/13214
> 
> and finalized
> bug 86606
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/14979

 = = = =
Second: also other linked issues (here or in 102915) do not have any
argumentation on the subject.

 = = = =

Third, In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915#22)

> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #7)
> > Few things that I notice:
> > 1. Dialogs Character, Paragraph and Bullets and Numbering are also direct
> > formatting tools. And present in the context menu.
> 
> They are present as they arent in the toolbars and are only available in the
> menus.

The argument was that all direct formatting items were removed.

> > 2. Clear Direct Formatting is to be considered a styles tool.
> 
> Its a direct formatting tool as it doesnt affect styles.

It is a powerful tool to work with styles properly.
I'm really sorry that I have to type such an obvious argument down.

> (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12)
> > Clear Direct Formatting is maybe not that often used, but at least as
> > important.
> 
> Definitely important enough that it was added to the toolbars.

A toolbar is not a context menu.
The context menu can be started without moving the mouse, and even without
using the mouse (properties key or extra in LibreOffice Shift+F10)
Further more: as people access the context menu often, there is a good change
they will discover the item in the neatly trimmed context menu (compared to the
richly filled tool bar), thus enhancing the use of tools for working with clear
(... ;) ) styles.

> (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #14)
> > Did Maxim overshoot during conversion of the context menus for
> > customization? Should a "Clear Direct Formatting" be included by default on
> > the context menu?
> 
> So I was removing it in 5.1/5.2 in this patch (
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/20446/ ) and Maxim suggested i not push
> it in as it would conflict with his work and he would incorporate my changes
> into his patch.

You kindly asked him to do so in your comment from December 15 2015.
I see no trace however of deliberate choice to remove the function.

> (In reply to tagezi from comment #11)
> > I'm sorry, but that you have indicated there is no new information. Removing
> > the item is not only logical, but also harmful. And the fact that the design
> > team did not see such a simple thing very frustrating. I feel that with this
> > approach, the design team will create us something like MSO - absolutely not
> > usability thing.
> 
> The discussion regarding the removal of direct formatting entries is in bug
> 81132 and i removed the entry from the context menu once it was added into
> the formatting toolbar. With easy access to the option in the toolbar, it
> shouldnt be available in the context menu.

As written before: 
- there is no separate discussion on removing the choice 'Clead Direct
Formatting'.
- access to the toolbar cannot be considered equal to access to the context
menu.

 = = = =

Fourth: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915#c19
76% of 125 votes say yes to the question "Do you need the function "Clear
Direct Formatting" in Writer's context menu?"

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #24 from V Stuart Foote  ---
@Jay, *

Since Heiko has the user survey linked here, makes more sense to close bug
102141 as a the duplicate regards this enhancement request and discussion of
restoring a "Clear Direct Formatting" .uno:ReesetAttributes based entry on the
Writer context menu.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|NEW
 Resolution|DUPLICATE   |---

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||de...@aiken.cz

--- Comment #23 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 102141 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 CC||philip...@hotmail.com
 Blocks||86349
 Resolution|--- |DUPLICATE

--- Comment #22 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #7)
> Few things that I notice:
> 1. Dialogs Character, Paragraph and Bullets and Numbering are also direct
> formatting tools. And present in the context menu.

They are present as they arent in the toolbars and are only available in the
menus.

> 2. Clear Direct Formatting is to be considered a styles tool.

Its a direct formatting tool as it doesnt affect styles.

(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #12)
> Thanks for the new arguments. However, to me it looks that this command has
> been removed maybe in a slip..

It was intentional. :D

> I don't think it's unhelpful at all.
> Copy/Cut/Paste are in the context menu, main menu, toolbars and have
> shortcuts.

Clipboard functions are the most used functions in any app and they are the
only exception to be included in all places, but likely not for long. (bug
84848)

> Clear Direct Formatting is maybe not that often used, but at least as
> important.

Definitely important enough that it was added to the toolbars.

(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #14)
> Did Maxim overshoot during conversion of the context menus for
> customization? Should a "Clear Direct Formatting" be included by default on
> the context menu?

So I was removing it in 5.1/5.2 in this patch (
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/20446/ ) and Maxim suggested i not push it
in as it would conflict with his work and he would incorporate my changes into
his patch.

(In reply to tagezi from comment #11)
> I'm sorry, but that you have indicated there is no new information. Removing
> the item is not only logical, but also harmful. And the fact that the design
> team did not see such a simple thing very frustrating. I feel that with this
> approach, the design team will create us something like MSO - absolutely not
> usability thing.

The discussion regarding the removal of direct formatting entries is in bug
81132 and i removed the entry from the context menu once it was added into the
formatting toolbar. With easy access to the option in the toolbar, it shouldnt
be available in the context menu.

*** This bug has been marked as a duplicate of bug 102141 ***


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86349
[Bug 86349] [META] Context menu bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10
   ||2141

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #21 from tagezi  ---
(In reply to kompilainenn from comment #20)
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #19)
> > https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/T9RpbhVM2cS
> the vast majority want to have a menu item
> 
> Heiko, such surveys need make for any changes in UI

It is strange that we should have a debate and ballot on this simple point.
This is a very simple logical chain.
Assume people are novices. When they edit a document, they use the button
before their eyes, that is, those that are on the panel and they will not use
the Main or context menu, if they see necessary function. That is, for them it
does not matter what is in the context menu.
Now suppose that a person is skilled user of LO. If they create a new document,
all items in the context menu are meaningless to them. They do not use it,
because almost everything they can done by hot keys, which is much faster.
But we know that a very large number of documents have a history of several
years, and can be created by users that can not / do not want to use styles
(this is often true for MSO users). In this case, the editors spend time to put
in order the document. Moreover, if the document is a fairly simple format, it
is enough Ctrl+A and Ctrl+M. But if the formatting is complex, the editors
allocate small piece of text, reset a format and  set a text style for this
piece. Natural, as an experienced user, they notice that they spend a lot of
time on their hand movements, and a logical, to use of the right mouse button,
that is the context menu for Clear Direct Formatting.
There is one more category of users having an average experience. This is the
largest group is divided into two parts.
The first part wants to study and to use LO efficiently. They gradually come to
the opinion of experienced users and they will need the item.
The second group does not want to learn, they want that work will be performed.
Ideally, they want a maximum one button that will carry them any request. They
tolerate the context menu, because they can not do anything  about it. They do
not know how to use styles, what document structure is, and that the hot keys
perform a specific action more quickly, and do not want to know these. Their
task is only to the early completion of what they do.

All of this can be seen if you draw a decision tree.
Of course, users who want a single button for all occasions much more. And then
the question is, for whom do we make our product, for people who are not
interested anything, or for people who want to use LO effectively?

Normally, when developers do an application redesign, developers begin with the
study of business processes in which items are involved. And only after this,
they decide on  their movement or removal.

So it all looks very strange to me. And the fact that the return consciously
deleted functionality (ie consciously made mistakes) is now an enhancement, not
a bug.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #20 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #19)
> (In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #14)
> > @Jay, Heiko, Samuel, Kendy
> 
> You argumentation to focus on styles make sense. Likewise tagezi's concerns
> of missing functionality. Let's ask the LibO community to get an impression.
> 
> https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/T9RpbhVM2cS

=) 

the vast majority want to have a menu item

Heiko, such surveys need make for any changes in UI

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #19 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #14)
> @Jay, Heiko, Samuel, Kendy

You argumentation to focus on styles make sense. Likewise tagezi's concerns of
missing functionality. Let's ask the LibO community to get an impression.

https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/T9RpbhVM2cS

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

--- Comment #18 from kompilainenn <79045_79...@mail.ru> ---
tagezi: do it yourself =) this is easy patch.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 102915] Restore Clear Direct Formatting (an uno: ResetAttributes command) to the context menu

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102915

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|medium  |low
Summary|The item Clear Direct   |Restore Clear Direct
   |Formatting is missing from  |Formatting (an
   |the context menu|uno:ResetAttributes
   ||command) to the context
   ||menu
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #17 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Well, clearly not a bug as it was done intentionally and functions as intended.
At most an enhancment--if ill advised.

Adjusting summary.

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