Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi Rob, On Fri, 2013-07-19 at 23:48 +0200, Rob Snelders wrote: My little contribution. Great to hear from you :-) I think we need _really need_ our own bugzilla so we can tweak that install that it suits us better. Then we can make the bugs less complex and use useful subcomponents. Personally I love the scope the BSA provides for making the end-user presented components arbitrarily better. I'd love to make it easier to find the BSA, and point more people at it instead of bugzilla - which (I agree) is uber-lame for new users. I'm personally surprised that only 30% (IIRC) of bugs come through the BSA - and I guess it'd be interesting to work out what refererres the others come from so we can 'BSA'-them ;-) One of the problems though IIRC was directing obvious support questions away from bugzilla to reduce triage load. Which makes me think: have we considered adding the initial feedback page not as some intermediate page before the BSA - but as an initial flow for the BSA itself ? :-) particularly if you don't have a bugzilla account re-directing people to Ask / give an easy +1/-1 etc. ? But of course this is not my world, so I'll butt out :-) HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 09:35:55AM +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: Personally I love the scope the BSA provides for making the end-user presented components arbitrarily better. I'd love to make it easier to find the BSA, and point more people at it instead of bugzilla - which (I agree) is uber-lame for new users. I'm personally surprised that only 30% (IIRC) of bugs come through the BSA - and I guess it'd be interesting to work out what refererres the others come from so we can 'BSA'-them ;-) I guess, the 30% BSA bugs come from the fact that most bugs need a bit of back and forth with the report -- which still happens exclusively on bugzilla. Also I dont think thats bad, if people who come back use bugzilla once they found their way around in it -- actually that is a Good Thing. IMHO we should look at primarily is first-bugs-filed at bugzilla, not those filing their second, third, tenth bug: If even people who never used bugzilla or the BSA also go for bugzilla, we should indeed look at that. However, my suspicion still is: - people go to BSA - BSA tells them to get a fdo bugzilla account - they request one, and wait for the mail they need to confirm - they get some friendly welcome mail from bugzilla telling them they can now start filing bugs (and of course link to _bugzilla_ and not the BSA) The last step is breaking the BSA workflow. Of course, if it were _our_ bugzilla, we could change that. ;) Which makes me think: have we considered adding the initial feedback page not as some intermediate page before the BSA - but as an initial flow for the BSA itself ? :-) particularly if you don't have a bugzilla account re-directing people to Ask / give an easy +1/-1 etc. ? I dont think adding pages would do any good, but we could/should: - have a link to IRC #libreoffice-qa on all pages of the BSA (like we have it in the footer of gerrit) - possibly more work: - trigger on words/phrases like cant find or how and then ask people, if they are needing support and offering a link to ask then(*). Best, Bjoern (*) Although that sucks, too: - go to BSA - create bugzilla account, get no link back to BSA - go there on your own - Start describing your issue - get told you should use ask instead - click link - need OpenID login - describe problem _again_ ... ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Hi, On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 04:12:34PM -0700, bfoman wrote: I think having separate page for code reviews (gerrit), bugs (own customized Bugzilla with integrated BSA), support (ask-site) and feedback (input) is a good idea. I miss other systems like telemetry data (metrics.mozilla.com) or crash reporting data (crash-stats.mozilla.com). The problem there is deduplication and the amounts of channels. Many devs do not even look at ask, so Im still conflicted on adding mozillas input thingie, which I assume will be even less read by developers, thus possibly ending us in a in space no one can hears you scream situation(*). Best, Bjoern (*) see also: moztrap, which has only resulted in limited feedback to the project so far. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
On 07/20/2013 08:31 AM, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Hi, On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 09:35:55AM +0100, Michael Meeks wrote: Personally I love the scope the BSA provides for making the end-user presented components arbitrarily better. I'd love to make it easier to find the BSA, and point more people at it instead of bugzilla - which (I agree) is uber-lame for new users. I'm personally surprised that only 30% (IIRC) of bugs come through the BSA - and I guess it'd be interesting to work out what refererres the others come from so we can 'BSA'-them ;-) I guess, the 30% BSA bugs come from the fact that most bugs need a bit of back and forth with the report -- which still happens exclusively on bugzilla. Also I dont think thats bad, if people who come back use bugzilla once they found their way around in it -- actually that is a Good Thing. IMHO we should look at primarily is first-bugs-filed at bugzilla, not those filing their second, third, tenth bug: If even people who never used bugzilla or the BSA also go for bugzilla, we should indeed look at that. However, my suspicion still is: - people go to BSA - BSA tells them to get a fdo bugzilla account - they request one, and wait for the mail they need to confirm - they get some friendly welcome mail from bugzilla telling them they can now start filing bugs (and of course link to _bugzilla_ and not the BSA) The last step is breaking the BSA workflow. Of course, if it were _our_ bugzilla, we could change that. ;) Which makes me think: have we considered adding the initial feedback page not as some intermediate page before the BSA - but as an initial flow for the BSA itself ? :-) particularly if you don't have a bugzilla account re-directing people to Ask / give an easy +1/-1 etc. ? I dont think adding pages would do any good, but we could/should: - have a link to IRC #libreoffice-qa on all pages of the BSA (like we have it in the footer of gerrit) - possibly more work: - trigger on words/phrases like cant find or how and then ask people, if they are needing support and offering a link to ask then(*). Best, Bjoern (*) Although that sucks, too: - go to BSA - create bugzilla account, get no link back to BSA - go there on your own - Start describing your issue - get told you should use ask instead - click link - need OpenID login - describe problem _again_ ... Hm how about this instead. The landing site starts with the login and a notice on the bottom about needing an account. When they sign up they sign up for both FDO Ask in one go so then they'll never have to worry about this again. From here it asks is this a bug or some such thing (happy/sad face) and depending on that - it goes to the same BSA but the result of submitting goes to Ask or FDO depending on what they put. Then there is no repetition on their side Just thinking out loud here - I think we have a few opinions flying around and it'd be nice to be on the same page (at least kind of?) 1. Landing page/no landing page - seems like Bjoern is very hesitant about any landing page while others think it's an okay idea to let users sort their own bugs. If we can avoid duplication of work by users I think that's the biggest issue for Bjoern while overloading Ask admins or QA personnel in screening bugs/non bugs and directing users is the other fear. 2. At what point should user login or be required to have a login - IMHO they should just get one immediately - then there is no need to deal with it later and ultimately, we want our users to have a login to FDO as it acts as a barrier when they don't for both reporting bugs getting involved. 3. Our own bugzilla - I think QA has decided that this is the long term goal really as we keep having to do workarounds on BSA to deal with the limitations of FDO. I know Tollef said it is probably time for us to have our own as he keeps having to do conditional statements if product = LibreOffice do all these special requests that they keep pouring on. Also lately it seems like the FDO admins might be even more overwhelmed than usual as some of our agreed upon changes are taking a long time to implement. Of course I don't blame FDO as I know they are stretched thin but if we had more control we could just get some of these things done in an hour or less - such as a warning about responding via email updating the text for version. Warm Regards, Joel ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
Re: [Libreoffice-qa] Send Feedback...and BSA ideas
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote The problem there is deduplication and the amounts of channels. Many devs do not even look at ask, so Im still conflicted on adding mozillas input thingie, which I assume will be even less read by developers, thus possibly ending us in a in space no one can hears you scream situation(*). Hi! I think that every service has its purpose and its own target audience. Ask site is for support heroes, input as a whiteboard and scream at us service could be ideal for marketing, UI and QA guys. All actionable items should be filed in Bugzilla only and it should be the main devs channel to look at to pick up bugs, request QA action, etc. When all info is delivered Gerrit is used when they want to contribute the code. Duplication and misuse of targeted services by users is inevitable. Mozilla for instance had the same problem with bugzillasumo, sumomo. Fortunately you can build dedicated volunteer teams around those services who will clean them up. QA is fighting with unconfirmeds, duplicates and needinfos in Bugzilla, not mentioning a workflow for non English reports setup recently. I am sure there are Ask heroes doing the same triage. Moztrap - I completely forgot about this service. Well, it is advertised on the wiki as a critical part of beta and rc testing, but in real life it is not a blocker before each release or including new features in a stable release (Personas for instance as a late feature). There weren't any Moztrap test day campaigns during 4.1 beta and rc stage. Also during 4.0 test marathon it was mentioned only in one sentence. Even Joel's blog post summarizing the event doesn't mention it, so there is no wonder that only few use it. Best regards. -- View this message in context: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-Send-Feedback-and-BSA-ideas-tp4065207p4066396.html Sent from the QA mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ List Name: Libreoffice-qa mailing list Mail address: Libreoffice-qa@lists.freedesktop.org Change settings: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-qa Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice-qa/
