Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Cor Nouws wrote (15-01-13 13:15) [...] Just below the group Wizards. Since it's only one line, it won't disturb the rest of the menu (since the new item Save as template can be removed). And it will make the features for templates, thus the new dialog, much better visible :-) Hi, Since there are lots of things to do right before RC2 freeze, I proposed to do the work myself. See https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/1787 From the commit message: The menu 'Address book source' is not restored – that moved to the Tools menu already File Template is placed directly below File Wizards; File Save As Template is removed Of course this is temporary, until new situation that Cedric wrote about is near, and we can have a look at the new possibilities then. Cheers, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi Cor, On Mon, 2013-01-14 at 20:32 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: The idea of a new template manager was to bring the content of that old menu to the users. At least now they don't have to discover that item (too far down in the File Menu) that triggers a sub-menu. Is there a certain position in the menu's below which items are so far that they could be considered as not useful? If so, the older menu sh/could have moved above that line ? ;-) IIRC we consider that below 7th item approx. the menu items are less considered by the users. And moving the old menu upper would have moved some other (potentially more important item) down. There is some positive perspective in this thought indeed. But first users need to discover that. And I still see File New .. for editing or managing not as a natural route. Then may be we should find a new Wording for the File New ... menu item. In a not so far future (but not for 4.0.x) I'ld love to see the whole sub-menu merged into the new Template Dialog, which may bring the consistency you're missing. Besides that: the old dialog also offerd Organise and Edit options (of course in a indirect and not so good and pretty way as now, but it was there.) Organise and Edit options are also in the new Template manager dialog. But in the old situation the users also find Edit and Organise in the menu File New Templates and documents. The old menu's features are either in the new dialog or in other places of the UI: that's why the whole submenu and it's content was dropped. See previous remark. Old features already where there. In this, I still fail to see a good argument why the old sub-menu is dropped. Being this way for years doesn't mean it needs to stay for ever and that it was a good thing. but pretty not welcomed now for 4.0.x as we passed string freeze (or our localizers friends won't be happy). I'm not sure if it is helpful to start arguing about what is in time and not (I have multiple arguments that make it reasonable for me to bring in my arguments now). And apart from that, it does not have to be (close to) perfect from the first release, is it? Sure it doesn't need to be perfect from the first release. But even if we can do things, we are now post RC and need to be careful what we change: release is in 2-3 weeks. I'm still seriously looking for what is good here. Sorry for my hesitant understanding of english, but do you mean you are working toward a good design or that you couldn't find anything good yet? Regards, -- Cedric ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi Cedric Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (15-01-13 10:06) On Mon, 2013-01-14 at 20:32 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: [...] And I still see File New .. for editing or managing not as a natural route. Then may be we should find a new Wording for the File New ... menu item. In a not so far future (but not for 4.0.x) I'ld love to see the whole sub-menu merged into the new Template Dialog, which may bring the consistency you're missing. [ To be discussed later .. but I'm not sure if e.g File New Spreadsheet is moved to a dialog. ] Besides that: the old dialog also offerd Organise and Edit options (of course in a indirect and not so good and pretty way as now, but it was there.) Organise and Edit options are also in the new Template manager dialog. Yes, but since they also were in the old one, you cannot just use the situation that they in the new one, as an argument for removing the menu. Being this way for years doesn't mean it needs to stay for ever and that it was a good thing. Indeed. We need arguments that show why a change is an improvement. [...] I'm still seriously looking for what is good here. Sorry for my hesitant understanding of english, but do you mean you are working toward a good design or that you couldn't find anything good yet? I mean - sorry for not being clear - that I do not yet see what the best solution is. Hence my remarks and questions. I do see that the new dialog is better and more attractive. And I do see that Organise and Edit options are available there. But those were also available in the old dialog, so that does not give me an argument to change the old menu. If the problem is that the old menu was to way down, then move it up. Just below the group Wizards. Since it's only one line, it won't disturb the rest of the menu (since the new item Save as template can be removed). And it will make the features for templates, thus the new dialog, much better visible :-) Cheers, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi Cor, On Sun, 2013-01-13 at 22:58 +0100, Cor Nouws wrote: Hi all, My sincere apologies if I missed a discussion about this (but in any case my mail box does not show it). We had the menu: File Templates Organise Address Book Source Save Edit Now we have: File Save As Template File New Template What is wrong with the old menu? The idea of a new template manager was to bring the content of that old menu to the users. At least now they don't have to discover that item (too far down in the File Menu) that triggers a sub-menu. Instead they will discover that they can do things with templates in the new dialog. It is easier to find. It is consistent with what people know. Advanced users know it... the idea is to help people using templates even if they aren't advanced users. The old menu's features are either in the new dialog or in other places of the UI: that's why the whole submenu and it's content was dropped. Suggestions are nice, but pretty not welcomed now for 4.0.x as we passed string freeze (or our localizers friends won't be happy). Regards, -- Cedric ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi all, Le 13/01/2013 22:58, Cor Nouws a écrit : Hi all, My sincere apologies if I missed a discussion about this (but in any case my mail box does not show it). We had the menu: File Templates Organise Address Book Source Save Edit Now we have: File Save As Template File New Template What is wrong with the old menu? It is easier to find. It is consistent with what people know. And File New Template for editing / organising is not so logic with the rest of the menu File New That was also my first impression while testing LO 4 beta2 Maybe the new menu could be: File Templates Organise / Edit Save Address Book Source Ideas? Seems ok for me : similar and simpler than current version ; no changes for users, easy for dev. Michel ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi Cedric, Cedric Bosdonnat wrote (14-01-13 09:30) The idea of a new template manager was to bring the content of that old menu to the users. At least now they don't have to discover that item (too far down in the File Menu) that triggers a sub-menu. Is there a certain position in the menu's below which items are so far that they could be considered as not useful? If so, the older menu sh/could have moved above that line ? ;-) Instead they will discover that they can do things with templates in the new dialog. There is some positive perspective in this thought indeed. But first users need to discover that. And I still see File New .. for editing or managing not as a natural route. Besides that: the old dialog also offerd Organise and Edit options (of course in a indirect and not so good and pretty way as now, but it was there.) Maybe others have an idea / argument here? It is easier to find. It is consistent with what people know. Advanced users know it... the idea is to help people using templates even if they aren't advanced users. But in the old situation the users also find Edit and Organise in the menu File New Templates and documents. The old menu's features are either in the new dialog or in other places of the UI: that's why the whole submenu and it's content was dropped. See previous remark. Old features already where there. In this, I still fail to see a good argument why the old sub-menu is dropped. Suggestions are nice, Thanks :-) but pretty not welcomed now for 4.0.x as we passed string freeze (or our localizers friends won't be happy). I'm not sure if it is helpful to start arguing about what is in time and not (I have multiple arguments that make it reasonable for me to bring in my arguments now). And apart from that, it does not have to be (close to) perfect from the first release, is it? I'm still seriously looking for what is good here. Thanks for your work and reply, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager - the menu entries
Hi 2013/1/13 Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl Hi all, My sincere apologies if I missed a discussion about this (but in any case my mail box does not show it). We had the menu: File Templates Organise Address Book Source Save Edit Now we have: File Save As Template File New Template This is what I noticed too. What is wrong with the old menu? It is easier to find. It is consistent with what people know. And File New Template for editing / organising is not so logic with the rest of the menu File New Maybe the new menu could be: File Templates Organise / Edit Save Address Book Source I like that. So I vote for it ;-)) Greetings, Kees Ideas? Thanks, Cor -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
