VLC as a MIDI player - OT from "Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?"

[ebenezer]

Just to add clarity (I hope!) to VLC being used as a MIDI player...

If you do nothing but install VLC, it doesn't play MIDI. However, it has 
a built-in MIDI synthesiser (good ol' FluidSynth). The 2nd 'however' is 
that there is no soundfont bound to this built-in synthesiser. I've no 
idea why, there's sure to be a reason.


From VLC, ~> Tools ~> Preferences ~> Show settings.All +> 
Input/Codecs.Audio codecs ~> FluidSynth ~> Browse...


then select the soundfont file of your choice. Click Save.

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Graham King]

[OT] It goes back beyond Mahler.  St. Gregory is reputed to have said of some 
fair-haired English slaves for sale in Rome, "Non Angli sed Angeli."

> On 15 Jan 2022, at 10:58, Lukas-Fabian Moser  wrote:
> 
> Hi Wol,
> 
>> Out of curiosity, and speaking as a Brit! what on earth is an "English 
>> Horn"? Is the instrument the English call a Cor Anglais?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> The etymology seems to be a bit involved here - although it seems certain 
> that the name has nothing to do with England. :-) Two standard explanations 
> essentially amount to a derivation either from "angelic" (referring to 
> instruments held by angels in Christian imagery) or "angled" (referring to 
> some of the various forms of the instrument) in some language.
> 
> On a semi-related note: Surprising as, for example, a connection between 
> "English", "Anglais", "Angelic" may seem, there is a funny matter in German 
> that, coming from the 19th century Wunderhorn poetry collection, survives in 
> Mahler's fourth symphony: "Wir führen ein englisches Leben", which a 
> modern-day German speaker would naively interpret as "We live an English 
> life" (and maybe think of tea time and fish and chips), but which undoubtedly 
> actually means "We lead an angelic life": Engel = Angel, Eng(e)lisch = 
> Angelic.
> 
> Lukas
> 
> 

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[bobr...@centrum.is]

- Original Message -
> From: "Wols Lists" 
> To: "Lillypond Users Mailing List" 
> Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2022 10:38:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

> On 13/01/2022 21:40, James B. Wilkinson wrote:
>> If I make it with the English horn part correctly transposed, the MIDI sounds
>> terrible. If I make it with the English horn part untransposed, it sounds 
>> fine.
>> My conclusion is that the midiInstrument "english horn" reads its part in C
>> rather than in F. Shouldn't it play the notes that a real English horn would?
> 
> Out of curiosity, and speaking as a Brit! what on earth is an "English
> Horn"? Is the instrument the English call a Cor Anglais?
> 
> Cheers,
> Wol

Yes, French "Cor" (horn) "Anglais" (English).  That said, it's my understanding 
that this is, in fact, a mistranslation as it was called an "angle horn" (cor 
d'angle).

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/17/fd/f517fdf6f33411c63199a6d4ec206d14.jpg

-David

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[David Kastrup]

"James B. Wilkinson"  writes:

>> On Jan 14, 2022, at 6:37 PM, Valentin Petzel  wrote:
>> 
>> ...
>> Lilypond uses these GM names, which makes Lilypond a somewhat GM compatible 
>> source. This means that as long as we use a GM compatible synth everything 
>> should have the right sound.
>
>
> I was using VLC to play it. Does this mean that VLC is not GM compatible? I 
> was having to compile it with the tenor voice not transposed in order to get 
> the MIDI file to play the correct notes. I had to compile again with the 
> tenor voice transposed to get the notes to print correctly on the page.
>
> David pointed me to the \transposition keyword, and adding "\transposition f" 
> to the "\with" clause of the English horn staff fixed the problem. Now I get 
> correct printed output and a correct MICI file from a single compilation. But 
> now I have another question making two questions in this post:
> 1) why do I need  "\transpose f c \tenor" instead of "\transpose f c'
> \tenor"? If I use c' it goes an octave too high.

\transpose f c means what you write as f gets printed as c .
\transpose f c' means what you write as f gets printed as c' .

> 2) Is VLC GM compatible.

VLC does not play MIDI.  You probably have some plugin active that
diverts to another synth.  Pretty much all of them, given suitable sound
fonts, are GM2 compatible since we are talking about a standard more
than 20 years old.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi Wol,

Out of curiosity, and speaking as a Brit! what on earth is an "English 
Horn"? Is the instrument the English call a Cor Anglais?


Yes.

The etymology seems to be a bit involved here - although it seems 
certain that the name has nothing to do with England. :-) Two standard 
explanations essentially amount to a derivation either from "angelic" 
(referring to instruments held by angels in Christian imagery) or 
"angled" (referring to some of the various forms of the instrument) in 
some language.


On a semi-related note: Surprising as, for example, a connection between 
"English", "Anglais", "Angelic" may seem, there is a funny matter in 
German that, coming from the 19th century Wunderhorn poetry collection, 
survives in Mahler's fourth symphony: "Wir führen ein englisches Leben", 
which a modern-day German speaker would naively interpret as "We live an 
English life" (and maybe think of tea time and fish and chips), but 
which undoubtedly actually means "We lead an angelic life": Engel = 
Angel, Eng(e)lisch = Angelic.


Lukas

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Jacques Menu]

And yes, the scores are written in the treble clef.

JM

> Le 15 janv. 2022 à 11:41, Jacques Menu  a écrit :
> 
> Hello Wol,
> 
>> Le 15 janv. 2022 à 11:38, Wols Lists > > a écrit :
>> 
>> On 13/01/2022 21:40, James B. Wilkinson wrote:
>>> If I make it with the English horn part correctly transposed, the MIDI 
>>> sounds terrible. If I make it with the English horn part untransposed, it 
>>> sounds fine. My conclusion is that the midiInstrument "english horn" reads 
>>> its part in C rather than in F. Shouldn't it play the notes that a real 
>>> English horn would?
>> 
>> Out of curiosity, and speaking as a Brit! what on earth is an "English 
>> Horn"? Is the instrument the English call a Cor Anglais?
> 
> Yes, it is an oboe alto in F, the modern evolution of Tribert’s instruments:
> 
> 
> 
> JM
> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> Wol
>> 
> 

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Wols Lists]

On 13/01/2022 21:40, James B. Wilkinson wrote:

If I make it with the English horn part correctly transposed, the MIDI sounds terrible. 
If I make it with the English horn part untransposed, it sounds fine. My conclusion is 
that the midiInstrument "english horn" reads its part in C rather than in F. 
Shouldn't it play the notes that a real English horn would?


Out of curiosity, and speaking as a Brit! what on earth is an "English 
Horn"? Is the instrument the English call a Cor Anglais?


Cheers,
Wol

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Lukas-Fabian Moser]

Hi James,
Lilypond uses these GM names, which makes Lilypond a somewhat GM 
compatible
source. This means that as long as we use a GM compatible synth 
everything

should have the right sound.


I was using VLC to play it. Does this mean that VLC is not GM compatible?


"Sounding like" (= using samples similar to) an English Horrn and 
"transposing like an English Horn" are independent issues matters here.


Valentin's explanations regarding GM concerned the sound of instruments.

As MIDI files usually (or probably even always, I'm not sure about the 
standard) contain notes in sounding (concert) pitch, it's up to the MIDI 
file generator (LilyPond) to create all notes in the correct sounding 
pitch. In LilyPond, this can be achieved by either \transpose'ing the 
music to concert pitch (but this also affects the printed layout) or 
using \transposition, which is specifically made for affecting the MIDI 
output only. (I'm ignoring the issue of quoted music here.)


Lukas

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Wols Lists]

On 15/01/2022 03:01, James B. Wilkinson wrote:
1) why do I need  "\transpose f c \tenor" instead of "\transpose f c' 
\tenor"? If I use c' it goes an octave too high.


\transpose f c' is transposing UP a fifth, it will play a fifth higher 
than written.

\transpose f c takes it down a fourth.

I guess it's written in treble clef, so for a tenor voice you will want 
to take it down.


The first note is the input value, the second value is the note that is 
output, and each octave starts at C going up. So the ' octave starts 
with middle C (c') and goes up the treble clef, while the plain 
unaltered octave starts with C in the bass clef (c), and goes up to but 
does not include middle C.


Cheers,
Wol

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[James B. Wilkinson]

> On Jan 14, 2022, at 6:37 PM, Valentin Petzel  wrote:
> 
> ...
> Lilypond uses these GM names, which makes Lilypond a somewhat GM compatible 
> source. This means that as long as we use a GM compatible synth everything 
> should have the right sound.


I was using VLC to play it. Does this mean that VLC is not GM compatible? I was 
having to compile it with the tenor voice not transposed in order to get the 
MIDI file to play the correct notes. I had to compile again with the tenor 
voice transposed to get the notes to print correctly on the page.

David pointed me to the \transposition keyword, and adding "\transposition f" 
to the "\with" clause of the English horn staff fixed the problem. Now I get 
correct printed output and a correct MICI file from a single compilation. But 
now I have another question making two questions in this post:
1) why do I need  "\transpose f c \tenor" instead of "\transpose f c' \tenor"? 
If I use c' it goes an octave too high.
2) Is VLC GM compatible.

In case it helps you to know this, the project started as notes typed in from a 
SATB printed page, i.e. all in C. Changing to double-reed instruments including 
English horn is the reason for the need to transpose the tenor part; I didn't 
retype those notes in the correct key.


thanks again guys

\score
{
  \new StaffGroup
   <<
 \new Staff = "oboe1" \with { instrumentName = "oboe1" midiInstrument = 
"oboe" }
   { \clef "treble" \soprano }
 \new Staff = "oboe2" \with { instrumentName = "oboe2" midiInstrument = 
"oboe" }
   { \clef "treble" \alto }

 \new Staff = "EngHrn" \with { instrumentName = "enghrn" midiInstrument = 
"english horn" \transposition f }
 % get the MIDI in the correct key; pitch is 
absolute here: written c' sounds as f
   { \clef "treble" \transpose f c \tenor }   % and get the score in 
the correct key (why c and not c'?)

 \new Staff = "bassoon" \with { instrumentName = "bassoon" midiInstrument = 
"bassoon" }
   { \clef "bass" \bass }
   >>
  \layout { \context { \Staff \consists "Ambitus_engraver" } }  
  \midi {  \tempo 4 = 80   }
}

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[Valentin Petzel]

That is not in fact worded correctly. The midi standard allows a midi 
controller to specify a program to the midi synthesizer, which is a number in 
0-127 and is intended to allow for switching between different sounds (although 
it is in fact the decision of the synthesizer what to do with that).

The General Midi standard then defines a specific map of these program numbers 
to certain instruments. So any GM compatible synthesizer needs to provide 
these instruments in this order.

Lilypond uses these GM names, which makes Lilypond a somewhat GM compatible 
source. This means that as long as we use a GM compatible synth everything 
should have the right sound.

Cheers,
Valentin

Am Donnerstag, 13. Jänner 2022, 22:56:34 CET schrieb H. S. Teoh:
> Lilypond actually doesn't know what an "english horn" is. As far as it's
> concerned, that's just an arbitrary name for a particular program number
> in the General Midi standard.  It does not assign any meaning to the
> name beyond mapping it to that program number.

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[H. S. Teoh]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 04:40:17PM -0500, James B. Wilkinson wrote:
[...]
> If I make it with the English horn part correctly transposed, the MIDI
> sounds terrible. If I make it with the English horn part untransposed,
> it sounds fine. My conclusion is that the midiInstrument "english
> horn" reads its part in C rather than in F. Shouldn't it play the
> notes that a real English horn would?
[...]

Lilypond actually doesn't know what an "english horn" is. As far as it's
concerned, that's just an arbitrary name for a particular program number
in the General Midi standard.  It does not assign any meaning to the
name beyond mapping it to that program number.[*]

To get the right transposition, you need to use the \transposition
directive (see the documentation for details) to tell Lilypond how the
pitches are supposed to be interpreted.


[*] In fact, I've used Lilypond to make MIDI performances of orchestras
with instruments that don't exist in the General Midi standard -- by
remapping program numbers to custom assignments. Lilypond is completely
unaware of this, however, and still expects General Midi names for
instruments. So what Lilypond thinks is an "english horn" in my score
could be, for example, a bass clarinet or Wagner horn in the final
output.  The identifier "english horn" is just a stand-in for midi
program #70.  How that program is actually rendered is not controlled by
Lilypond, but by the midi player (and how you configured it) downstream.


T

-- 
Heads I win, tails you lose.

Re: Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[David Kastrup]

"James B. Wilkinson"  writes:

> I'm working on an arrangement fordable-reed quartet. Here's the score block:
>
> \score
> {
>   \new StaffGroup
><<
>  \new Staff = "oboe1" \with { instrumentName = "oboe1" midiInstrument = 
> "oboe" }
>{ \clef "treble" \soprano }
>  \new Staff = "oboe2" \with { instrumentName = "oboe2" midiInstrument = 
> "oboe" }
>{ \clef "treble" \alto }
>  \new Staff = "EngHrn" \with { instrumentName = "enghrn" midiInstrument = 
> "english horn" }   %"english horn"
>{ \clef "treble" \transpose f c \tenor }   %the correct 
> transposition for EH sounds terrible
> %   { \clef "treble" \transpose c c, \tenor }  % temporarily down one 
> octave; sounds fine
>  \new Staff = "bassoon" \with { instrumentName = "bassoon" midiInstrument 
> = "bassoon" }
>{ \clef "bass" \bass }
>>>
>   \layout { \context { \Staff \consists "Ambitus_engraver" } }  
>   \midi {  \tempo 4 = 80   }
> }
>
>
> If I make it with the English horn part correctly transposed, the MIDI
> sounds terrible. If I make it with the English horn part untransposed,
> it sounds fine. My conclusion is that the midiInstrument "english
> horn" reads its part in C rather than in F. Shouldn't it play the
> notes that a real English horn would?




Instrument transpositions
.

When typesetting scores that involve transposing instruments, some parts
can be typeset in a different pitch than the concert pitch.  In these
cases, the key of the transposing instrument should be specified;
otherwise the MIDI output and cues in other parts will produce incorrect
pitches.  For more information about quotations, see *note Quoting other
voices::.

 \transposition PITCH

   The pitch to use for ‘\transposition’ should correspond to the real
sound heard when a ‘c'’ written on the staff is played by the
transposing instrument.  This pitch is entered in absolute mode, so an
instrument that produces a real sound which is one tone higher than the
printed music should use ‘\transposition d'’.  ‘\transposition’ should
_only_ be used if the pitches are _not_ being entered in concert pitch.

   Here are a few notes for violin and B-flat clarinet where the parts
have been entered using the notes and key as they appear in each part of
the conductor’s score.  The two instruments are playing in unison.

 \new GrandStaff <<
   \new Staff = "violin" \with {
 instrumentName = "Vln"
 midiInstrument = "violin"
   }
   \relative c'' {
 % not strictly necessary, but a good reminder
 \transposition c'
 \key c \major
 g4( c8) r c r c4
   }
   \new Staff = "clarinet" \with {
 instrumentName = \markup { Cl (B\flat) }
 midiInstrument = "clarinet"
   }
   \relative c'' {
 \transposition bes
 \key d \major
 a4( d8) r d r d4
   }
 >>

-- 
David Kastrup

Lilypond's English Horn MIDI instrument is non-transposing?

[James B. Wilkinson]

I'm working on an arrangement fordable-reed quartet. Here's the score block:

\score
{
  \new StaffGroup
   <<
 \new Staff = "oboe1" \with { instrumentName = "oboe1" midiInstrument = 
"oboe" }
   { \clef "treble" \soprano }
 \new Staff = "oboe2" \with { instrumentName = "oboe2" midiInstrument = 
"oboe" }
   { \clef "treble" \alto }
 \new Staff = "EngHrn" \with { instrumentName = "enghrn" midiInstrument = 
"english horn" }   %"english horn"
   { \clef "treble" \transpose f c \tenor }   %the correct 
transposition for EH sounds terrible
%   { \clef "treble" \transpose c c, \tenor }  % temporarily down one 
octave; sounds fine
 \new Staff = "bassoon" \with { instrumentName = "bassoon" midiInstrument = 
"bassoon" }
   { \clef "bass" \bass }
   >>
  \layout { \context { \Staff \consists "Ambitus_engraver" } }  
  \midi {  \tempo 4 = 80   }
}


If I make it with the English horn part correctly transposed, the MIDI sounds 
terrible. If I make it with the English horn part untransposed, it sounds fine. 
My conclusion is that the midiInstrument "english horn" reads its part in C 
rather than in F. Shouldn't it play the notes that a real English horn would?


thanks