Re: Font kerning
> Of course, what it means to “conform as much as possible to the original > layout” is the question at hand. If purely visual, your code is > correct; if purely semantic, “vº1º”/“vº2º” is correct (however the font > displays that); if both together, then a font with appropriate letter > and numeral forms is needed. In my case “purely visual” is the correct answer. More in general, I definitely agree with you. cheers Francesco Napoleoni
Re: Font kerning
On 2/14/22 11:57, Francesco Napoleoni wrote:
In data lunedì 14 febbraio 2022 00:19:11 CET, Joel C. Salomon ha scritto:
I wonder whether you’re using the wrong symbol, and using the correct
one might help a little. Your code is using the degree sign “°” U+B0,
when by context this should probably be the masculine ordinal indicator
“º” U+BA.
Yes, I know that there are more appropriate symbols, but I have to conform as
much as possible to the original layout, which uses superscript “o”
everywhere. Indeed this makes sense since the little “o” is the last letter of
every abbreviated word: “Violin_o_ prim_o_” and “Violin_o_ second_o_”, so I
ended up writing something like this (inside \markup):
\concat { "V." \hspace #-0.4 \normal-size-super o "I." \hspace #-0.6 \normal-
size-super o }
which produces an output very similar to the original.
Of course, what it means to “conform as much as possible to the original
layout” is the question at hand. If purely visual, your code is
correct; if purely semantic, “vº1º”/“vº2º” is correct (however the font
displays that); if both together, then a font with appropriate letter
and numeral forms is needed.
―Joel
Re: Font kerning
In data lunedì 14 febbraio 2022 00:19:11 CET, Joel C. Salomon ha scritto:
> On 2/7/2022 11:53 AM, Francesco Napoleoni wrote:
> > How can I adjust (if possible) such property in a markup block?
> >
> > namely I would like to “shrink” the “V.° I.°” and the “V.° 2.°” text like
> > the attached screenshot.
>
> I wonder whether you’re using the wrong symbol, and using the correct
> one might help a little. Your code is using the degree sign “°” U+B0,
> when by context this should probably be the masculine ordinal indicator
> “º” U+BA.
Yes, I know that there are more appropriate symbols, but I have to conform as
much as possible to the original layout, which uses superscript “o”
everywhere. Indeed this makes sense since the little “o” is the last letter of
every abbreviated word: “Violin_o_ prim_o_” and “Violin_o_ second_o_”, so I
ended up writing something like this (inside \markup):
\concat { "V." \hspace #-0.4 \normal-size-super o "I." \hspace #-0.6 \normal-
size-super o }
which produces an output very similar to the original.
As a matter of fact the original text is an italian publication dated 1885, so
you’re right, it’s quite old.
Anyway, thanks for your contribution.
bye
Francesco Napoleoni
Re: Font kerning
On 2/7/2022 11:53 AM, Francesco Napoleoni wrote:
How can I adjust (if possible) such property in a markup block?
namely I would like to “shrink” the “V.° I.°” and the “V.° 2.°” text like the
attached screenshot.
I wonder whether you’re using the wrong symbol, and using the correct
one might help a little. Your code is using the degree sign “°” U+B0,
when by context this should probably be the masculine ordinal indicator
“º” U+BA.
(Some fonts display this symbol as a superscript “o” like “ᵒ”; some add
an underline to it like “̵ᵒ”; some add an underdot that I can’t easily
imitate by abusing other Unicode characters; and your source material is
using a full-stop “.” kerned in pretty tightly.)
I’m also pretty sure this is a font with old-style figures, where the
numeral “1” looks like a small-caps “ɪ”; and so the v’s should be
lower-case.
So the actual text should be “vº1º” & “vº2º” or “v.º1.º” & “v.º2.º”:
{
c''1^\markup {
\override #'(font-name . "TeX Gyre Schola")
\override #'(font-features . ("onum"))
{ "vº1º2º" }
}
c''^\markup \concat {
\override #'(font-name . "TeX Gyre Termes")
\override #'(font-features . ("onum"))
{ "v." \hspace #-0.4 "º" "1." \hspace #-0.6 "º" "2." \hspace #-0.6
"º" }
}
}
—Joel
Re: Font kerning
> making something like shelf{}full omit the ff ligature only
somewhat reliably: if there is a hyphenation pass over the paragraph in
question, TeX will create the ff ligature in the "reconstitution pass".
As an aside, the selnolig package exists for LuaTeX that automatically
removes select ligatures like with "shelfful".
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 2:36 PM David Kastrup wrote:
>
> Valentin Petzel writes:
>
> >> Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 22:47:30 CET schrieb:
> >>> Valentin Petzel writes:
> >>> >> Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 21:30:21 CET schrieb:
> >>> >>> Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin
> >>> >>> works for me.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter
> >>> >>> spacing, something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right?
> >>> >
> >>> > No. As Lilypond is a music typesetter, not a text typesetter, the text
> >>> > typesetting options in Lilypond are quite rudimentary. This means that
> >>> > Lilypond has no interface for these things. So kerning in Lilypond
> >>> > markup
> >>> > usually means taking two markups and putting them next to each other
> >>> > with
> >>> > some (potentially negative) distance.
> >>>
> >>> Which is pretty much what \kern does in TeX. The difference between
> >>> a \kern and \hspace in TeX is that \hspace indicates a possible
> >>> breakpoint (and when a break happens there, it will get removed),
> >>> and \hspace can take flexible glue specifications. And I am not
> >>> sure but \kern may be transparent to hyphenation.
> >>>
> >>> LilyPond's \hspace takes no flexible glue specifications and cannot
> >>> become a breakpoint either, and hyphenation is not a thing. So I
> >>> have no idea what your "No." is supposed to mean.
> >
> > Hello David.
> >
> > TeX takes care of text output entirely by itself, while Lilypond delegates
> > this to Pango. This makes handling certain things quite a bit more awkward
> > in
> > Lilypond. So while \hspace does work similarly to \kern it does not really
> > have the same function.
> >
> > In TeX we could for example do
> > This is a Test\kern0.2pt word
> > for what Lilypond would need
> > { This is a \concat { Test \hspace #0.1 word } }
>
> That has nothing to do with how \hspace works but rather how \line
> breaks things into pieces. The equivalent to
> \markup { This is a Test \hspace #0.1 word }
> would be
> This is a Test \kern0.2pt\relax word
>
> \concat is LilyPond's way of omitting spaces.
>
> You'll also find that TeX's way of grouping kernable material is rather
> awkward, making something like shelf{}full omit the ff ligature only
> somewhat reliably: if there is a hyphenation pass over the paragraph in
> question, TeX will create the ff ligature in the "reconstitution pass".
>
> > Thus my "no" means to say that there is in fact not such a direct way
> > to adjust letter spacing in Lilypond.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
Re: Font kerning
Valentin Petzel writes:
>> Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 22:47:30 CET schrieb:
>>> Valentin Petzel writes:
>>> >> Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 21:30:21 CET schrieb:
>>> >>> Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin
>>> >>> works for me.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter
>>> >>> spacing, something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right?
>>> >
>>> > No. As Lilypond is a music typesetter, not a text typesetter, the text
>>> > typesetting options in Lilypond are quite rudimentary. This means that
>>> > Lilypond has no interface for these things. So kerning in Lilypond markup
>>> > usually means taking two markups and putting them next to each other with
>>> > some (potentially negative) distance.
>>>
>>> Which is pretty much what \kern does in TeX. The difference between
>>> a \kern and \hspace in TeX is that \hspace indicates a possible
>>> breakpoint (and when a break happens there, it will get removed),
>>> and \hspace can take flexible glue specifications. And I am not
>>> sure but \kern may be transparent to hyphenation.
>>>
>>> LilyPond's \hspace takes no flexible glue specifications and cannot
>>> become a breakpoint either, and hyphenation is not a thing. So I
>>> have no idea what your "No." is supposed to mean.
>
> Hello David.
>
> TeX takes care of text output entirely by itself, while Lilypond delegates
> this to Pango. This makes handling certain things quite a bit more awkward in
> Lilypond. So while \hspace does work similarly to \kern it does not really
> have the same function.
>
> In TeX we could for example do
> This is a Test\kern0.2pt word
> for what Lilypond would need
> { This is a \concat { Test \hspace #0.1 word } }
That has nothing to do with how \hspace works but rather how \line
breaks things into pieces. The equivalent to
\markup { This is a Test \hspace #0.1 word }
would be
This is a Test \kern0.2pt\relax word
\concat is LilyPond's way of omitting spaces.
You'll also find that TeX's way of grouping kernable material is rather
awkward, making something like shelf{}full omit the ff ligature only
somewhat reliably: if there is a hyphenation pass over the paragraph in
question, TeX will create the ff ligature in the "reconstitution pass".
> Thus my "no" means to say that there is in fact not such a direct way
> to adjust letter spacing in Lilypond.
--
David Kastrup
Re: Font kerning
Hello David.
TeX takes care of text output entirely by itself, while Lilypond delegates
this to Pango. This makes handling certain things quite a bit more awkward in
Lilypond. So while \hspace does work similarly to \kern it does not really
have the same function.
In TeX we could for example do
This is a Test\kern0.2pt word
for what Lilypond would need
{ This is a \concat { Test \hspace #0.1 word } }
Thus my "no" means to say that there is in fact not such a direct way to
adjust letter spacing in Lilypond.
Cheers,
Valentin
Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 22:47:30 CET schrieb David Kastrup:
> Valentin Petzel writes:
> >> Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 21:30:21 CET schrieb:
> >>> Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin works
> >>> for
> >>> me.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter
> >>> spacing,
> >>> something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right?
> >
> > No. As Lilypond is a music typesetter, not a text typesetter, the text
> > typesetting options in Lilypond are quite rudimentary. This means that
> > Lilypond has no interface for these things. So kerning in Lilypond markup
> > usually means taking two markups and putting them next to each other with
> > some (potentially negative) distance.
>
> Which is pretty much what \kern does in TeX. The difference between a
> \kern and \hspace in TeX is that \hspace indicates a possible breakpoint
> (and when a break happens there, it will get removed), and \hspace can
> take flexible glue specifications. And I am not sure but \kern may be
> transparent to hyphenation.
>
> LilyPond's \hspace takes no flexible glue specifications and cannot
> become a breakpoint either, and hyphenation is not a thing. So I have
> no idea what your "No." is supposed to mean.
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Font kerning
Valentin Petzel writes: >> Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 21:30:21 CET schrieb: >>> Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin works for >>> me. >>> >>> Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter spacing, >>> something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right? > > No. As Lilypond is a music typesetter, not a text typesetter, the text > typesetting options in Lilypond are quite rudimentary. This means that > Lilypond has no interface for these things. So kerning in Lilypond markup > usually means taking two markups and putting them next to each other with > some > (potentially negative) distance. Which is pretty much what \kern does in TeX. The difference between a \kern and \hspace in TeX is that \hspace indicates a possible breakpoint (and when a break happens there, it will get removed), and \hspace can take flexible glue specifications. And I am not sure but \kern may be transparent to hyphenation. LilyPond's \hspace takes no flexible glue specifications and cannot become a breakpoint either, and hyphenation is not a thing. So I have no idea what your "No." is supposed to mean. -- David Kastrup
Re: Font kerning
No. As Lilypond is a music typesetter, not a text typesetter, the text typesetting options in Lilypond are quite rudimentary. This means that Lilypond has no interface for these things. So kerning in Lilypond markup usually means taking two markups and putting them next to each other with some (potentially negative) distance. Cheers, Valentin Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 21:30:21 CET schrieb Francesco Napoleoni: > Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin works for > me. > > Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter spacing, > something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right? > > cheers > Francesco Napoleoni signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Font kerning
In data lunedì 7 febbraio 2022 21:46:49 CET, David Kastrup ha scritto: > So how would you characterise this being any different from \kern ? Uhmmm... I wouldn’t. :-)
Re: Font kerning
Francesco Napoleoni writes: > In data lunedì 7 febbraio 2022 21:40:05 CET, David Kastrup ha scritto: >> Have you tried negative \hspace ? > > Yes, that’s what Valentin suggested, and indeed it does the trick. So how would you characterise this being any different from \kern ? -- David Kastrup
Re: Font kerning
In data lunedì 7 febbraio 2022 21:40:05 CET, David Kastrup ha scritto: > Have you tried negative \hspace ? Yes, that’s what Valentin suggested, and indeed it does the trick.
Re: Font kerning
Francesco Napoleoni writes: > Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin works for me. > > Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter spacing, > something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right? Have you tried negative \hspace ? -- David Kastrup
Re: Font kerning
Thanks to all for your answers. The trick suggested by Valentin works for me. Anyway it looks like there’s no option to directly adjust letter spacing, something like \kern macro in LaTeX, right? cheers Francesco Napoleoni
Re: Font kerning
Hello Francesco,
perhaps \concat { ... } . Also you can use \hspace with a negative number to
add negative spacing before a markup, pulling it forward.
E.g.
{ c^\markup\concat { "V." \hspace #-0.5 "°" "I." \hspace #-0.8 "°" } }
Cheers,
Valentin
Am Montag, 7. Februar 2022, 17:53:19 CET schrieb Francesco Napoleoni:
> Hello everyone
>
> How can I adjust (if possible) such property in a markup block?
>
> namely I would like to “shrink” the “V.° I.°” and the “V.° 2.°” text like
> the attached screenshot.
>
> Thanks
> Francesco Napoleoni
signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Font kerning
Hi Francesco,
Am 07.02.22 um 17:53 schrieb Francesco Napoleoni:
Hello everyone
How can I adjust (if possible) such property in a markup block?
namely I would like to “shrink” the “V.° I.°” and the “V.° 2.°” text like the
attached screenshot.
It's easier to help if you also provide the LilyPond code generating
your example.
But here's my guess: Multi-part markup expressions like
\markup { some\raise #0.5 thing }
are implicitly understood to be separate words. If you want them to be
printed without spaces in between, you can use \concat:
\markup { \concat { some\raise #0.5 thing } }
Lukas
