Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Wright]

Quoting Thomas Morley (thomasmorle...@gmail.com):
> 2015-10-13 3:18 GMT+02:00 David Wright :
> > Quoting s.p.korzil...@gmail.com (s.p.korzil...@gmail.com):
> >
> >> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems 
> >> that “
> >> \repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\
> >> alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, 
> >> while I
> >> have alternative middle parts.
> >
> > Hi again, thanks to 
> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-10/msg00399.html
> > I can now close the volta bracket with this undocumented feature,
> > \allowVoltaHook, thus avoiding inkscape postprocessing.
> >
> > Be aware, however, that \allowVoltaHook is global and unresettable,
> > at least at the level of \score. (I don't use \book myself.)
> 
> Apart from being listed in available music-functions there is indeed
> no documentation for `allowVoltaHook' and it is indeed global and
> unresettable.

Yes; I'm not sure what the function was written for, if using it in
the way I did is "appalling".

> Probably best to changed it into a property. Another entry on my
> (very) long TODO-list.
> 
> To get around the problem of `allowVoltaHook' being global you could
> define a new bar-line (basically renaming):
> 
> \version "2.18.2"
> 
> #(define-bar-line "|-b" "|" #f "|")
> \allowVoltaHook "|-b"

This seems to work well. I noticed that define-bar-line was the only
other occurrence of   [void] - bar (string)   in the Notation manual,
but that meant nothing to me. Now I have another target to think
about: how music functions work.

Thanks for the snippet.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> Quoting Thomas Morley (thomasmorle...@gmail.com):
>> 2015-10-13 3:18 GMT+02:00 David Wright :
>> > Quoting s.p.korzil...@gmail.com (s.p.korzil...@gmail.com):
>> >
>> >> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with
>> >> alternatives. It seems that “
>> >> \repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\
>> >> alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative
>> >> endings, while I
>> >> have alternative middle parts.
>> >
>> > Hi again, thanks to
>> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-10/msg00399.html
>> > I can now close the volta bracket with this undocumented feature,
>> > \allowVoltaHook, thus avoiding inkscape postprocessing.
>> >
>> > Be aware, however, that \allowVoltaHook is global and unresettable,
>> > at least at the level of \score. (I don't use \book myself.)
>> 
>> Apart from being listed in available music-functions there is indeed
>> no documentation for `allowVoltaHook' and it is indeed global and
>> unresettable.
>
> Yes; I'm not sure what the function was written for, if using it in
> the way I did is "appalling".

Oh, "appalling" was my choice of words and I employed it for how
\allowVoltaHook is defined, not for how you used it.

> This seems to work well. I noticed that define-bar-line was the only
> other occurrence of [void] - bar (string) in the Notation manual, but
> that meant nothing to me. Now I have another target to think about:
> how music functions work.

Basically like macros.  They transform some input into a music
expression that is then included instead of the original input.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Simon Albrecht]

Hi David,

On 15.10.2015 17:48, David Wright wrote:

Now I have another target to think
about: how music functions work.


You might be interested in the Extending Manual, especially 
.


HTH, Simon

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Re: Repeat with alternatives [solved]

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> Quoting s.p.korzil...@gmail.com (s.p.korzil...@gmail.com):
>
>> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It
>> seems that “
>> \repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\
>> alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative
>> endings, while I
>> have alternative middle parts.
>
> Hi again, thanks to
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-10/msg00399.html
> I can now close the volta bracket with this undocumented feature,
> \allowVoltaHook, thus avoiding inkscape postprocessing.
>
> Be aware, however, that \allowVoltaHook is global and unresettable,
> at least at the level of \score. (I don't use \book myself.)

Appalling.  It's not totally global but per-session (file on the command
line).  But still seems like far too large a hammer.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Repeat with alternatives [solved]

[Thomas Morley]

2015-10-13 3:18 GMT+02:00 David Wright :
> Quoting s.p.korzil...@gmail.com (s.p.korzil...@gmail.com):
>
>> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems 
>> that “
>> \repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\
>> alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, 
>> while I
>> have alternative middle parts.
>
> Hi again, thanks to 
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-10/msg00399.html
> I can now close the volta bracket with this undocumented feature,
> \allowVoltaHook, thus avoiding inkscape postprocessing.
>
> Be aware, however, that \allowVoltaHook is global and unresettable,
> at least at the level of \score. (I don't use \book myself.)

Apart from being listed in available music-functions there is indeed
no documentation for `allowVoltaHook' and it is indeed global and
unresettable.
Probably best to changed it into a property. Another entry on my
(very) long TODO-list.

To get around the problem of `allowVoltaHook' being global you could
define a new bar-line (basically renaming):

\version "2.18.2"

#(define-bar-line "|-b" "|" #f "|")
\allowVoltaHook "|-b"

\relative {
  \override Score.VoltaBracket.shorten-pair = #'(0.2 . 0.2)
  c'1
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "1a"))
  d1
  \bar "|-b"
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f) (volta "2a"))
  e1
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
  \bar "|-b"


  c'1
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "2a"))
  d
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f) (volta "2b"))
  e
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
}


>
> I've also tidied up the code I sent previously, getting rid of the
> warning by removing the redundant (volta #f). Staff, \score and \time
> are also not required as they only redefine the defaults.
> Score.VoltaBracket.shorten-pair might be useful too. I've tried to
> indicate that the barlines both *terminate* the alternative part-
> measures by shifting the hooks.
>
> (I'm not convinced that part-measures are a good idea, but that's not
> my call.)
>
> Cheers,
> David.
>
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Re: Repeat with alternatives [solved]

[David Wright]

Quoting s.p.korzil...@gmail.com (s.p.korzil...@gmail.com):

> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems that 
> “
> \repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\
> alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, while 
> I
> have alternative middle parts.

Hi again, thanks to 
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-10/msg00399.html
I can now close the volta bracket with this undocumented feature,
\allowVoltaHook, thus avoiding inkscape postprocessing.

Be aware, however, that \allowVoltaHook is global and unresettable,
at least at the level of \score. (I don't use \book myself.)

I've also tidied up the code I sent previously, getting rid of the
warning by removing the redundant (volta #f). Staff, \score and \time
are also not required as they only redefine the defaults.
Score.VoltaBracket.shorten-pair might be useful too. I've tried to
indicate that the barlines both *terminate* the alternative part-
measures by shifting the hooks.

(I'm not convinced that part-measures are a good idea, but that's not
my call.)

Cheers,
David.
%%%
\version "2.18.2"
\paper { #(set-paper-size "a5") }
\header { tagline = ##f }

\allowVoltaHook "|"
{
  a'8 b' c' e' c'2 |
  a'4 b'
  \once \override Score.VoltaBracket.shorten-pair = #'(0.3 . -0.4)
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "1."))
  d' g' |
  \once \override Score.VoltaBracket.shorten-pair = #'(0.7 . -0.5)
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f) (volta "2."))
  \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 2/4)
  d'8 e' f' g' |
  \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
  \set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4/4)
  d''4 c'' b' a' |
  a'4 b' c'' d'' \bar ":|." |
}
%%%


stan-sol.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Stan Korzilius]

Dear all,

Thank you all for your help! I think the best solution to my problem, as
someone of you suggested, to start the alternative at the beginnings of
bars and not somewhere in the middle. The only 'problem' then is that the
2nd volta bracket is not closed. It does make it easier to read.

B.t.w., the reason that the automatic volta repeats does not work for me (I
don't think this was clear to everybody) is that the repeat should not
start after the alternative. In my real sheet I have sets of 8 bars that
are repeated, with only the 3rd of 4th bar different.

Again, thank you all and maybe until next time ;)

Kind regards,

Stan

2015-10-01 20:16 GMT+02:00 Brian Barker :

> At 15:22 30/09/2015 +0200, you wrote:
>
>> I'm trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems
>> that "\repeat volta 2" is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in
>> "\alternative". However, this seems to work only for alternative _endings_,
>> while I have alternative _middle parts_.
>>
>
> I think first- and second-time bars do indeed work only for endings - but
> a piece can continue after these alternative endings, which has the effect
> you require. There is no requirement for such endings to be at the end of
> the piece.
>
> But they are indeed called first-time *bars* (= measures), and I think
> your problem is in trying to apply the technique to parts of bars. Surely
> you should start the alternative at the beginning of bar 2, so that the
> first two crotchets (quarter notes) appear in both alternatives. There is
> no reason to wait until the first note that is different and start the
> alternative mid-bar. Wouldn't that solve your problem?
>
> If I understand your intentions correctly, I'd even suggest that the final
> semibreve (whole note) could be included in both alternatives, so that they
> did indeed last to the end of the piece: wouldn't that be easier for
> performers to read? (I do appreciate, though, that your example may be
> artificial.)
>
> Brian Barker - privately
>
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Richard Shann]

On Fri, 2015-10-02 at 22:47 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > > Would this be understood by the average musician?
> > > > 
> > > >|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed
> part 2 :|
> > > 
> > > Understood? Well "my" attached "partial solution" (which I've
> > > completed only by using inkscape)
> > 
> > Did you resort to inkscape to get the because you wanted an
> > end-of-second-time marker? LilyPond doesn't give one with this
> syntax
> 
> Absolutely. Earlier in the thread I wrote: "However, my partial
> solution fails to close the 2nd alternative's volta bracket, and I
> don't see any way of doing so. Perhaps someone more expert could help
> there with some sort of tweak." 

I thought I was missing the point :) this gets closer

\version "2.19.25"
{
a'8 b' c' e' c'2
a'4 b' 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "1"))
d'4 g' 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f)) 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "2"))
\set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2) d'8 e' f' g' 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
%\once \hide  BarLine 
\once \override Score.BarLine.stencil = ##f  
\bar ":|."
\grace {s8}   \bar "|"
d''4 c'' b' a'
%5
a' b' c'' d'' \bar ":|."}

but the spacing looks suspicious to me ...
The commented out \hide command didn't work, that I don't understand.

Richard






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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Wols Lists]

On 03/10/15 06:58, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 19:30 02/10/2015 +0100, Anthony Youngman wrote:
>> At the end of the day, it's down to the conductor to make sure the
>> players know what they're doing.
> 
> But surely engraved music is designed to indicate this unambiguously? If
> the conductor needs to get involved, the representation has failed. If I
> compose music and publish ambiguous engravings, any conductor cannot
> know what I intended.
> 
Not really ...

In the Radetzky example it's pretty clear. It's just unusual. Which
means if the player hasn't checked their part (poor practice, I know)
and hits it unprepared, they're suddenly in a mess, not knowing where to go.

Have you ever hit the Hemel or Swindon magic roundabouts in a car? What
on earth do you do if you've never seen a magic roundabout before?
They're simple, ONCE you've twigged how they work, but coming upon one
unprepared is not the time to be trying to work out what to do!

Cheers,
Wol


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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Jacques Menu]

Hello,

I’ve sometimes played scores with « 1st time only » and « 2nd time only » in 
such cases.
Is that often used by professional engravers?

JM

> Le 2 oct. 2015 à 20:27, David Wright  a écrit :
> 
> Quoting Johan Vromans (jvrom...@squirrel.nl):
>> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:41:21 +0100
>> Anthonys Lists  wrote:
>> 
>>> Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I 
>>> understand he wants
>>> 
>>> {fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat
>> 
>> I'm not familiar with a clean notation for the above. 
> 
> Nor me. It would usually help if the OP could post an example of what
> they wanted, either published or cobbled together.
> 
>> For the normal repeat, with alternative endings, this would be
>> 
>>   |: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 :|2 alternative 2 |
>> 
>> Would this be understood by the average musician?
>> 
>>   |: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed part 2 :|
> 
> Understood? Well "my" attached "partial solution" (which I've
> completed only by using inkscape) would be understood in such a small
> piece. If it ran over several pages, then perhaps not. But even then,
> it couldn't be misunderstood upon reflection, because all its elements
> are used in a completely conventional manner. The only unusual thing
> is seeing no :| at the end of closed volta brackets (because you don't
> go back at that point).
> 
> Liked? Don't know. What do people think?
> 
> Useful? Well, it's funny how a piece immediately pops up that could
> benefit from such a construction. I'm looking at a copy of "When rooks
> fly homeward" by Arthur Baynon. It's a piece with two verses of 9 bars
> each, where the music for each verse is identical apart from the fifth
> bar whose rhythm is 8 4 8 4 4 and then 4 8 8 4 4.
> If I were asked to produce a copy on two staves for an accompanist
> (something I have often done), it would be an ideal candidate for this
> construction, though I certainly would not use half-bars.
> (But as it is, it's simple enough for most choirs to sight-read with
> no accompaniment, but for one soprano typo in that 84844 bar.)
> 
> Cheers,
> David.
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[mskala]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015, Richard Shann wrote:
> > > > {fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat

> and it gives a warning which I don't understand. OTOH the
> end-of-second-time marker wouldn't serve any particular purpose - the
> player doesn't do anything special at that point.

Well, "end of second time" is also the place where the player picks up
after skipping over the second alternative during the *first* repetition,
so it's worth marking it in some way.

Is this a task that could be accomplished with careful use of segno, coda,
DS, DC, and so on?

-- 
Matthew Skala
msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles.
http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Johan Vromans]

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:41:21 +0100
Anthonys Lists  wrote:

> Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I 
> understand he wants
> 
> {fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat

I'm not familiar with a clean notation for the above. 

For the normal repeat, with alternative endings, this would be

   |: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 :|2 alternative 2 |

Would this be understood by the average musician?

   |: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed part 2 :|

-- Johan

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Kastrup]

"Mark Stephen Mrotek"  writes:

> David,
>
> Thank you for the information.
> My answer was determined by the version used.

As was mine.  Of course I want to sell people on new developments.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> Following David K's contribution, I looked at issue 355 but, without
> any version 2.19 to run,

That sounds like something one could fix.

> I couldn't experiment with the code in comment #11 (which looks like
> the final word). It seems to imply that 2.19's alternatives always
> start a fresh bar, which is not what we want here where we start on
> beat 3.

No.  The fix just carries over the measurePosition from the start of the
first alternative into all other alternatives.  You don't have to start
on a bar boundary for that.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Wright]

Quoting Johan Vromans (jvrom...@squirrel.nl):
> On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:41:21 +0100
> Anthonys Lists  wrote:
> 
> > Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I 
> > understand he wants
> > 
> > {fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat
> 
> I'm not familiar with a clean notation for the above. 

Nor me. It would usually help if the OP could post an example of what
they wanted, either published or cobbled together.

> For the normal repeat, with alternative endings, this would be
> 
>|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 :|2 alternative 2 |
> 
> Would this be understood by the average musician?
> 
>|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed part 2 :|

Understood? Well "my" attached "partial solution" (which I've
completed only by using inkscape) would be understood in such a small
piece. If it ran over several pages, then perhaps not. But even then,
it couldn't be misunderstood upon reflection, because all its elements
are used in a completely conventional manner. The only unusual thing
is seeing no :| at the end of closed volta brackets (because you don't
go back at that point).

Liked? Don't know. What do people think?

Useful? Well, it's funny how a piece immediately pops up that could
benefit from such a construction. I'm looking at a copy of "When rooks
fly homeward" by Arthur Baynon. It's a piece with two verses of 9 bars
each, where the music for each verse is identical apart from the fifth
bar whose rhythm is 8 4 8 4 4 and then 4 8 8 4 4.
If I were asked to produce a copy on two staves for an accompanist
(something I have often done), it would be an ideal candidate for this
construction, though I certainly would not use half-bars.
(But as it is, it's simple enough for most choirs to sight-read with
no accompaniment, but for one soprano typo in that 84844 bar.)

Cheers,
David.
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Anthonys Lists]

On 02/10/2015 07:24, Johan Vromans wrote:

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:41:21 +0100
Anthonys Lists  wrote:


Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I
understand he wants

{fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat

I'm not familiar with a clean notation for the above.

For the normal repeat, with alternative endings, this would be

|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 :|2 alternative 2 |

Would this be understood by the average musician?

|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed part 2 :|

-- Johan


Quite possibly, actually ...

I won't email it to the list, but if people want it (email me off-list, 
trombone parts only) my version of Radetzky iirc has some weird volta 
progression. At the end of the day, it's down to the conductor to make 
sure the players know what they're doing.


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Richard Shann]

On Fri, 2015-10-02 at 13:27 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> Quoting Johan Vromans (jvrom...@squirrel.nl):
> > On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:41:21 +0100
> > Anthonys Lists  wrote:
> > 
> > > Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I 
> > > understand he wants
> > > 
> > > {fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat
> > 
> > I'm not familiar with a clean notation for the above. 
> 
> Nor me. It would usually help if the OP could post an example of what
> they wanted, either published or cobbled together.
> 
> > For the normal repeat, with alternative endings, this would be
> > 
> >|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 :|2 alternative 2 |
> > 
> > Would this be understood by the average musician?
> > 
> >|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed part 2 :|
> 
> Understood? Well "my" attached "partial solution" (which I've
> completed only by using inkscape)

Did you resort to inkscape to get the because you wanted an
end-of-second-time marker? LilyPond doesn't give one with this syntax

\version "2.19.25"
{

a'8 b' c' e' c'2
a'4 b' 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "1"))
d'4 g' 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f)) 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "2"))
\set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2) d'8 e' f' g' 
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
d''4 c'' b' a'
%5
a' b' c'' d'' \bar ":|."}


and it gives a warning which I don't understand. OTOH the
end-of-second-time marker wouldn't serve any particular purpose - the
player doesn't do anything special at that point.

Richard




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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Brian Barker]

At 19:30 02/10/2015 +0100, Anthony Youngman wrote:
At the end of the day, it's down to the conductor to make sure the 
players know what they're doing.


But surely engraved music is designed to indicate this unambiguously? 
If the conductor needs to get involved, the representation has 
failed. If I compose music and publish ambiguous engravings, any 
conductor cannot know what I intended.


Brian Barker  



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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Wright]

Quoting Richard Shann (rich...@rshann.plus.com):
> On Fri, 2015-10-02 at 13:27 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > Quoting Johan Vromans (jvrom...@squirrel.nl):
> > > On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:41:21 +0100
> > > Anthonys Lists  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I 
> > > > understand he wants
> > > > 
> > > > {fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat
> > > 
> > > I'm not familiar with a clean notation for the above. 
> > 
> > Nor me. It would usually help if the OP could post an example of what
> > they wanted, either published or cobbled together.
> > 
> > > For the normal repeat, with alternative endings, this would be
> > > 
> > >|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 :|2 alternative 2 |
> > > 
> > > Would this be understood by the average musician?
> > > 
> > >|: fixed part 1 |1 alterrnative 1 |2 alternative 2 | fixed part 2 :|
> > 
> > Understood? Well "my" attached "partial solution" (which I've
> > completed only by using inkscape)
> 
> Did you resort to inkscape to get the because you wanted an
> end-of-second-time marker? LilyPond doesn't give one with this syntax

Absolutely. Earlier in the thread I wrote: "However, my partial
solution fails to close the 2nd alternative's volta bracket, and I
don't see any way of doing so. Perhaps someone more expert could help
there with some sort of tweak."

> \version "2.19.25"
> {
> 
> a'8 b' c' e' c'2
> a'4 b' 
> \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "1"))
> d'4 g' 
> \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f)) 
> \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta "2"))
> \set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2) d'8 e' f' g' 
> \set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
> d''4 c'' b' a'
> %5
> a' b' c'' d'' \bar ":|."}
> 
> 
> and it gives a warning which I don't understand. 

Presumably the same as mine: "warning: cannot end volta spanner"?
I will admit that I didn't bother to look at the Score.repeatCommands
at all. All I did was add two Timing.measureLength lines and rewrite
the last bar, where Stan's semibreve didn't clearly reveal where LP
was putting the beats.

> OTOH the
> end-of-second-time marker wouldn't serve any particular purpose - the
> player doesn't do anything special at that point.

It's not a case of what the player does. The end-of-second-time
marker's mandatory purpose is to define the precise point where the
so-called "fixed part 2" starts. Because of its importance, it has to
be properly marked with a vertical line matching the one at the start
of the bracket.

This contrasts with a normal repeat having two endings, where the 2nd
volta bracket effectively peters out in mid-air because it has little
or no significance. Its length in this case is just a matter of style.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Richard Shann]

On Wed, 2015-09-30 at 15:22 +0200, s.p.korzil...@gmail.com wrote:
> Dear Sir / Madam,
> 
>  
> 
> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It
> seems that “\repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the
> alternatives in “\alternative”. However, this seems to work only for
> alternative endings, while I have alternative middle parts.
> 
>  
> 
> I have tried to fix this manually with introducing volta brackets and
> repeat signs. Unfortunately Lilypond doesn’t recognize this as a
> repeat and counts the notes of the alternatives as if they are all
> played in one run (so that the first note after the alternatives does
> not start a new measure, as it should, see attachment).

I don't know whether this is the approved way, but Denemo uses this
syntax

\set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2)

to indicate that the second time bar is only half a bar. (This example
is for half a bar in 4/4 time).

I think for hand-written LilyPond you should be using the \repeat
volta ... {} \alternative {} etc style syntax (the only reason Denemo
doesn't output that by default is that often the users do not look at
the LilyPond and then get in a mess through failing to open and close
the repeat).

HTH

Richard



>  
> 
> Hope you can help me.
> 
>  
> 
> Kindest regards,
> 
>  
> 
> Stan Korzilius
> 
> 
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Richard Shann]

On Thu, 2015-10-01 at 12:40 -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > On Sep 30, 2015, at 8:22 AM, s.p.korzil...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > Dear Sir / Madam,
> >  
> > I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems 
> > that “\repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in 
> > “\alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, 
> > while I have alternative middle parts.
> >  
> > I have tried to fix this manually with introducing volta brackets and 
> > repeat signs. Unfortunately Lilypond doesn’t recognize this as a repeat and 
> > counts the notes of the alternatives as if they are all played in one run 
> > (so that the first note after the alternatives does not start a new 
> > measure, as it should, see attachment).
> 
> Yes.  You are starting the alternative in the middle of the bar which, from 
> the perspective of the musician reading the piece, is going to look very odd 
> and be hard to follow.

Are you sure? I recall this (repeat-half-bars) being quite a normal
notation ... 

Richard


>   The alternatives should always be full bars not only for Lilypond to 
> function correctly but for the musicians to be able to play it correctly 
> without needing a lot of instruction.
> 
> The updated file here corrects the issue and is more readable:
> 
> 
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Tim McNamara]

> On Sep 30, 2015, at 8:22 AM, s.p.korzil...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Dear Sir / Madam,
>  
> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems that 
> “\repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in 
> “\alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, 
> while I have alternative middle parts.
>  
> I have tried to fix this manually with introducing volta brackets and repeat 
> signs. Unfortunately Lilypond doesn’t recognize this as a repeat and counts 
> the notes of the alternatives as if they are all played in one run (so that 
> the first note after the alternatives does not start a new measure, as it 
> should, see attachment).

Yes.  You are starting the alternative in the middle of the bar which, from the 
perspective of the musician reading the piece, is going to look very odd and be 
hard to follow.  The alternatives should always be full bars not only for 
Lilypond to function correctly but for the musicians to be able to play it 
correctly without needing a lot of instruction.

The updated file here corrects the issue and is more readable:




Example Updated.ly
Description: Binary data


Example Updated.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[Anthonys Lists]

On 01/10/2015 18:40, Tim McNamara wrote:

On Sep 30, 2015, at 8:22 AM, s.p.korzil...@gmail.com wrote:

Dear Sir / Madam,
  
I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems that “\repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, while I have alternative middle parts.
  
I have tried to fix this manually with introducing volta brackets and repeat signs. Unfortunately Lilypond doesn’t recognize this as a repeat and counts the notes of the alternatives as if they are all played in one run (so that the first note after the alternatives does not start a new measure, as it should, see attachment).

Yes.  You are starting the alternative in the middle of the bar which, from the 
perspective of the musician reading the piece, is going to look very odd and be 
hard to follow.  The alternatives should always be full bars not only for 
Lilypond to function correctly but for the musicians to be able to play it 
correctly without needing a lot of instruction.


But that's no use if you're setting parts for something that someone 
else has written ... it gets thoroughly confusing if some people have 
parts one way, and others have parts another way. I've had to set stuff 
like that and it gets tricky ...


I think I used a mixture of \partial and spacer rests.

Anyways, I think we've all missed the OPs problem. As he phrased it, I 
understand he wants


{fixed part 1} {alternative 1} {alternative 2} {fixed part 2} repeat

How you do that, I dunno, apart from just not using \repeat and setting 
the bits manually.


Cheers,
Wol

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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Kastrup]

"Mark Stephen Mrotek"  writes:

> Lilypond does handle mid-measure repeats, you just have to tell it that it is 
> mid-measure:
>
>  
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> \score {
>
>   \new Staff {
>
> \time 4/4
>
> \repeat volta 2 {
>
> a'8 b' c' e' c'2
>
> a'4 b' }
>
> \alternative {
>
> {d' g'}
>
> {\set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2)
>
>   d'8 e' f' g'}}
>
> d''1 
>
>   }
>
> }

Actually, with current developer versions the above works just fine even
without meddling with Timing.measurePosition in any manner.  That was
issue 355, fixed in version 2.19.0 (though there were a few additional
fixes later) in November 2013.

-- 
David Kastrup

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RE: Repeat with alternatives

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

Stan,

 

Lilypond does handle mid-measure repeats, you just have to tell it that it is 
mid-measure:

 

\version "2.18.2"

\score {

  \new Staff {

\time 4/4

\repeat volta 2 {

a'8 b' c' e' c'2

a'4 b' }

\alternative {

{d' g'}

{\set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2)

  d'8 e' f' g'}}

d''1 

  }

}

 

Mark

 

From: lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org 
[mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of 
s.p.korzil...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 6:22 AM
To: lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Repeat with alternatives

 

Dear Sir / Madam,

 

I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems that 
“\repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in 
“\alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, while 
I have alternative middle parts.

 

I have tried to fix this manually with introducing volta brackets and repeat 
signs. Unfortunately Lilypond doesn’t recognize this as a repeat and counts the 
notes of the alternatives as if they are all played in one run (so that the 
first note after the alternatives does not start a new measure, as it should, 
see attachment).

 

Hope you can help me.

 

Kindest regards,

 

Stan Korzilius

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RE: Repeat with alternatives

[Mark Stephen Mrotek]

David,

Thank you for the information.
My answer was determined by the version used.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: David Kastrup [mailto:d...@gnu.org] 
Sent: Thursday, October 01, 2015 6:34 PM
To: Mark Stephen Mrotek <carsonm...@ca.rr.com>
Cc: s.p.korzil...@gmail.com; lilypond-user@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Repeat with alternatives

"Mark Stephen Mrotek" <carsonm...@ca.rr.com> writes:

> Lilypond does handle mid-measure repeats, you just have to tell it that it
is mid-measure:
>
>  
>
> \version "2.18.2"
>
> \score {
>
>   \new Staff {
>
> \time 4/4
>
> \repeat volta 2 {
>
> a'8 b' c' e' c'2
>
> a'4 b' }
>
> \alternative {
>
> {d' g'}
>
> {\set Timing.measurePosition = #(ly:make-moment -1/2)
>
>   d'8 e' f' g'}}
>
> d''1
>
>   }
>
> }

Actually, with current developer versions the above works just fine even
without meddling with Timing.measurePosition in any manner.  That was issue
355, fixed in version 2.19.0 (though there were a few additional fixes
later) in November 2013.

--
David Kastrup


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Re: Repeat with alternatives

[David Wright]

Quoting s.p.korzil...@gmail.com (s.p.korzil...@gmail.com):

> I’m trying to write a piece that has repeats with alternatives. It seems that 
> “
> \repeat volta 2” is the way to go with supplying the alternatives in “\
> alternative”. However, this seems to work only for alternative endings, while 
> I
> have alternative middle parts.

So what you're wanting is, I take it, to write |:A-B1/B2-C:| and have the
players play A B1 C A B2 C. I suppose the question arises as to where
you draw the line in calling things "repeats". Ssupposing I write
|:A-B1/B2-C-D1/D2-E:| where A, C and E have 1 measure each, and the
rest of the sections each have several...

This also ties into the lyric structure desired in
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2015-09/msg00592.html
because, for example, your two alternatives might be a way of dealing
with two verses of text where the syllables didn't quite match at that
point.

Having got all that of my chest! the partial solution below is hardly
original. However, unlike Tim's, I haven't refactored the barlines.
This actually makes it look odd to me as the 2nd alternative shouldn't
start with a barline. And unlike Mark's, it doesn't have extra :|
markings that erroneously tell you to go back to the start.

Following David K's contribution, I looked at issue 355 but, without
any version 2.19 to run, I couldn't experiment with the code in
comment #11 (which looks like the final word). It seems to imply that
2.19's alternatives always start a fresh bar, which is not what we
want here where we start on beat 3. And, of course, issue 355 wouldn't
affect Mark's spurious :| markings.

However, my partial solution fails to close the 2nd alternative's
volta bracket, and I don't see any way of doing so. Perhaps someone
more expert could help there with some sort of tweak.

%%%
\version "2.18.2"
\score {
  \new Staff {
\time 4/4
a'8 b' c' e' c'2
a'4 b'
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f) (volta "1."))
d' g'
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f) (volta "2."))
\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 2/4)
d'8 e' f' g'
\set Score.repeatCommands = #'((volta #f))
\set Timing.measureLength = #(ly:make-moment 4/4)
d''4 c'' b' a' % See *
a'4 b' c'' d'' \bar ":|."
  }
}
%%%

* I split the semibreve in order to clarify that the
  barlines are being placed correctly.

Cheers,
David.

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