Re: Slur over single note?

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 2016-07-20 3:48 AM, Urs Liska wrote:
> If I'm not mistaken this is a piano reduction?
> If that's the case i'd assume there's a tied note or two slurred ones in
> an instrumental part here.
> 
> I see two options here, depending on what you want with this score:
> 
> 1 (the scholarly approach):
> Get hold of the full score and see if there's a part that warrants the
> slur/tie. If you find somethign adjust the thing accordingly.


There may have been a full score somewhere, but WorldCat doesn’t
indicate that any libraries have it.  (At
 there’s a record of an
orchestrated “Selection from … Peter Pan”, but note “selection from” and
also the orchestration is by Fred Adlington not John Crook.)

Perhaps the Duke of York’s Theatre has in its archives a complete score,
and I am trying to find someone there whom I might ask about this.
(Amazingly enough, their web presence seems entirely dedicated to
selling people tickets to current performances and does not have their
archivist’s contact information prominently displayed.  It’s almost as
if my request is somehow an unusual one… ;) )

—Joel C. Salomon

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Re: Slur over single note?

[Urs Liska]

Am 20.07.2016 um 04:26 schrieb Andrew Bernard:
> All the rest of the signs are phrasing slurs in this snippet. I would
> say it’s also a phrasing slur, and not a mistake or error.
>

I disagree. I have skimmed through the whole score, and I'm still nearly
sure (maybe now 98.5 % instead of merely 98 %) that this is an engraving
error.

If I'm not mistaken this is a piano reduction?
If that's the case i'd assume there's a tied note or two slurred ones in
an instrumental part here.

I see two options here, depending on what you want with this score:

1 (the scholarly approach):
Get hold of the full score and see if there's a part that warrants the
slur/tie. If you find somethign adjust the thing accordingly.

2 (the flashy approach):
Use the scholarLY package and produce a nice annotation with footnote.
See attached input and result files.

Of course you can base 2) on the results of 1)

Best
Urs

> The Peter Pan score seems to be full of such _descriptive_
> indications. Not all scores are entirely _prescriptive_.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
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\version "2.19.45"

\include "scholarly/package.ly"


\new Staff
\relative a {
  \clef bass
  <<
{
  \voiceOne
  \criticalRemark \with {
message = "In the piano reduction there is a spurious tie or slur
   that spans the whole measure but isn't continued
   after the line break"
footnote-offset = #'(-0.5 . 1)
footnote-text = "Spurious tie/slur. See critical remarks"
  }
  LaissezVibrerTie
  a1 \laissezVibrer
}
\new Voice {
  \voiceTwo
  a,8 r r4 r2
}
  >>
  8
}

spurious-tie.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
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Re: Slur over single note?

[Andrew Bernard]

All the rest of the signs are phrasing slurs in this snippet. I would say
it’s also a phrasing slur, and not a mistake or error.

The Peter Pan score seems to be full of such _descriptive_ indications. Not
all scores are entirely _prescriptive_.

Andrew
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Re: Slur over single note?

[David Wright]

On Tue 19 Jul 2016 at 15:12:37 (-0700), Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
> > >> >> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't
> > >a
> > >> >> connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the
> > >> >> BarLine at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's
> > >> >only
> > >> >> speculation at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical
> > >position,
> > >> >> too, it almost looks like it could be a slur. What does the next
> > >bar
> > >> >> look like?
> > >> >
> > >> >The next bar doesn’t have any partial ties or slurs.
> > >>
> > >> But is there an a or any other note that could reasonably be tied or
> > >slurred to in the next measure?
> > >>
> > >> From my experience as editor this really looks like a broken tie or
> > >slur where the engraver forgot to supply the second part. This happens
> > >extremely often.
> > >>
> > >> Best would be an image of the next system.
> > >
> > >Attached. Every bar in the piece looks like the other three bars,
> > >except for two cadences at which beat 4 is a crochet in the bass.
> > >So IMHO it's to make sure the note is sustained right through the
> > >bar, as this movement lacks any pedalling. A tie here wouldn't make
> > >sense in the context.
> 
> 
> Another possible interpretation is that the A whole note should be tied to
> the eighth-note A in the first chord of the next measure.
> 
> In that view, the error is the omission of the tie in the first measure of
> the next system.

Two errors, in that case. It's engraved as a slur, not a tie. That
might not be clear in my tiny attachment, but the OP's shows it.

Cheers,
David.

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Re: Slur over single note?

[Flaming Hakama by Elaine]

> >> >> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't
> >a
> >> >> connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the
> >> >> BarLine at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's
> >> >only
> >> >> speculation at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical
> >position,
> >> >> too, it almost looks like it could be a slur. What does the next
> >bar
> >> >> look like?
> >> >
> >> >The next bar doesn’t have any partial ties or slurs.
> >>
> >> But is there an a or any other note that could reasonably be tied or
> >slurred to in the next measure?
> >>
> >> From my experience as editor this really looks like a broken tie or
> >slur where the engraver forgot to supply the second part. This happens
> >extremely often.
> >>
> >> Best would be an image of the next system.
> >
> >Attached. Every bar in the piece looks like the other three bars,
> >except for two cadences at which beat 4 is a crochet in the bass.
> >So IMHO it's to make sure the note is sustained right through the
> >bar, as this movement lacks any pedalling. A tie here wouldn't make
> >sense in the context.


Another possible interpretation is that the A whole note should be tied to
the eighth-note A in the first chord of the next measure.

In that view, the error is the omission of the tie in the first measure of
the next system.


David Elaine Alt
415 . 341 .4954   "*Confusion is
highly underrated*"
ela...@flaminghakama.com
self-immolation.info
skype: flaming_hakama
Producer ~ Composer ~ Instrumentalist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Re: Slur over single note?

[Hans Åberg]

> On 19 Jul 2016, at 22:10, Joel C. Salomon  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-07-19 2:37 PM, Urs Liska wrote:

>> Mind sending that (privately if you want) or a download link?
> 
> The file is “39087011212125score.pdf” from
> , the piece “The Flying Away”, pages
> 12–14 in the PDF file (displayed page numbers 10–12); alternatively you
> can find the same file at
> .

The full book is available at 
  https://archive.org/details/musictojmbarrie00barrgoog



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Re: Slur over single note?

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 2016-07-19 2:37 PM, Urs Liska wrote:
> I'm 98% sure that's an engraving error of some kind that may
> be resolved by analogy. I'd have to see the full score ...
> 
> Mind sending that (privately if you want) or a download link?

The file is “39087011212125score.pdf” from
, the piece “The Flying Away”, pages
12–14 in the PDF file (displayed page numbers 10–12); alternatively you
can find the same file at
.

—Joel

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Re: Slur over single note?

[David Wright]

On Tue 19 Jul 2016 at 18:58:36 (+0200), Urs Liska wrote:
> Am 19. Juli 2016 18:11:14 MESZ, schrieb "Joel C. Salomon" 
> :
> >On 2016-07-19 2:45 AM, tisimst wrote:
> >> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't a
> >> connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the
> >> BarLine at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's
> >only
> >> speculation at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical position,
> >> too, it almost looks like it could be a slur. What does the next bar
> >> look like?
> >
> >The next bar doesn’t have any partial ties or slurs.  
> 
> But is there an a or any other note that could reasonably be tied or slurred 
> to in the next measure?
> 
> From my experience as editor this really looks like a broken tie or slur 
> where the engraver forgot to supply the second part. This happens extremely 
> often.
> 
> Best would be an image of the next system.

Attached. Every bar in the piece looks like the other three bars,
except for two cadences at which beat 4 is a crochet in the bass.
So IMHO it's to make sure the note is sustained right through the
bar, as this movement lacks any pedalling. A tie here wouldn't make
sense in the context.

As I said in the other subthread, not being a pianist, I don't know
which hand plays the quavers in the upper staff and whether that has
implications for sustaining the note.

Cheers,
David.
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Re: Slur over single note?

[Urs Liska]

Am 19. Juli 2016 20:02:10 MESZ, schrieb David Wright 
:
>On Tue 19 Jul 2016 at 18:58:36 (+0200), Urs Liska wrote:
>> Am 19. Juli 2016 18:11:14 MESZ, schrieb "Joel C. Salomon"
>:
>> >On 2016-07-19 2:45 AM, tisimst wrote:
>> >> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't
>a
>> >> connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the
>> >> BarLine at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's
>> >only
>> >> speculation at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical
>position,
>> >> too, it almost looks like it could be a slur. What does the next
>bar
>> >> look like?
>> >
>> >The next bar doesn’t have any partial ties or slurs.  
>> 
>> But is there an a or any other note that could reasonably be tied or
>slurred to in the next measure?
>> 
>> From my experience as editor this really looks like a broken tie or
>slur where the engraver forgot to supply the second part. This happens
>extremely often.
>> 
>> Best would be an image of the next system.
>
>Attached. Every bar in the piece looks like the other three bars,
>except for two cadences at which beat 4 is a crochet in the bass.
>So IMHO it's to make sure the note is sustained right through the
>bar, as this movement lacks any pedalling. A tie here wouldn't make
>sense in the context.

Interestingly senseless, indeed.
I'm 98% sure that's an engraving error of some kind that may be resolved by 
analogy. I'd have to see the full score ...

Mind sending that (privately if you want) or a download link?

Urs
>
>As I said in the other subthread, not being a pianist, I don't know
>which hand plays the quavers in the upper staff and whether that has
>implications for sustaining the note.
>
>Cheers,
>David.

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Re: Slur over single note?

[Urs Liska]

Am 19. Juli 2016 18:11:14 MESZ, schrieb "Joel C. Salomon" 
:
>On 2016-07-19 2:45 AM, tisimst wrote:
>> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't a
>> connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the
>> BarLine at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's
>only
>> speculation at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical position,
>> too, it almost looks like it could be a slur. What does the next bar
>> look like?
>
>The next bar doesn’t have any partial ties or slurs.  

But is there an a or any other note that could reasonably be tied or slurred to 
in the next measure?

From my experience as editor this really looks like a broken tie or slur where 
the engraver forgot to supply the second part. This happens extremely often.

Best would be an image of the next system.

Urs 

>Other scores in
>the same book do have indications of ties continued across line-breaks,
>so I’m reasonable sure this was not accidentally omitted here.
>
>Experimenting with the `\extendLV` function verifies Robin Bannister’s
>original caveats:
>
>> You could however make it _look_ longer, but then
>> - you have to guess how much
>> - it may collide with something.
>
>so while `\laissezVibrer` is cleaner code, I think I’ll stick with my
>
>#(define afterGraceFraction (cons 1 1))
>\afterGrace a1( {s32)}
>
>hack.
>
>Thank you all,
>—Joel C. Salomon
>
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Re: Slur over single note?

[Joel C. Salomon]

On 2016-07-19 2:45 AM, tisimst wrote:
> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't a
> connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the
> BarLine at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's only
> speculation at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical position,
> too, it almost looks like it could be a slur. What does the next bar
> look like?

The next bar doesn’t have any partial ties or slurs.  Other scores in
the same book do have indications of ties continued across line-breaks,
so I’m reasonable sure this was not accidentally omitted here.

Experimenting with the `\extendLV` function verifies Robin Bannister’s
original caveats:

> You could however make it _look_ longer, but then
> - you have to guess how much
> - it may collide with something.

so while `\laissezVibrer` is cleaner code, I think I’ll stick with my

#(define afterGraceFraction (cons 1 1))
\afterGrace a1( {s32)}

hack.

Thank you all,
—Joel C. Salomon

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Re: Slur over single note?

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Abraham,

I don’t think it is actually a laissezvibrer tie, I am only suggesting that
because that is a way to do it in lilypond, which does not have single
sided slurs, as I call them, built in.

OP: here is the code to extend a laissezviber tie to ‘fake out’ a long
indication like this on a single note. I use it a lot in the music I work
with - not al all uncommon  in contemporary scores.

http://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=715

Andrew



On 19 July 2016 at 4:46:11 PM, tisimst (tisimst.lilyp...@gmail.com) wrote:

It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't a
connection to the next bar.
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Re: Slur over single note?

[tisimst]

On Monday, July 18, 2016, Andrew Bernard [via Lilypond] <
ml-node+s1069038n192810...@n5.nabble.com> wrote:

> Hi Joel
>
> Use a laissezvibrer tie. I have a function to extend them, Away from the
> computer right now. Will send later. Can't remember if it is on LSR.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Tuesday, 19 July 2016, Joel C. Salomon <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
>> Still from the John Crook’s Peter Pan score project, but a different
>> piece (“The Flying Away”, page 12 in the score at
>> ):
>>
>> As show in the attached image, there seems to be a slur drawn over a
>> single whole-note.  It’s very clearly over that note, not over the other
>> voice in that measure—which doesn’t seem reasonable to me.
>>
>> Can someone explain to me what’s going on there, and how to achieve this
>> in LilyPond?  I was thinking to use something like
>>
>> \graceAfter a1(  { s32) }
>>
>> but if this is a semi-standard musical construction I’m unfamiliar with,
>> there might be a better way to code this.
>>
>> —Joel C. Salomon
>
> It could be a LaissezVibrer tie, but I'm wondering if there isn't a
connection to the next bar. The tie extends so far and touches the BarLine
at the end of that measure that makes me wonder, but it's only speculation
at this point. Given the ending tip's vertical position, too, it almost
looks like it could be a slur. What does the next bar look like?

--
Abraham Lee




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Re: Slur over single note?

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Joel

Use a laissezvibrer tie. I have a function to extend them, Away from the
computer right now. Will send later. Can't remember if it is on LSR.

Andrew

On Tuesday, 19 July 2016, Joel C. Salomon  wrote:

> Still from the John Crook’s Peter Pan score project, but a different
> piece (“The Flying Away”, page 12 in the score at
> ):
>
> As show in the attached image, there seems to be a slur drawn over a
> single whole-note.  It’s very clearly over that note, not over the other
> voice in that measure—which doesn’t seem reasonable to me.
>
> Can someone explain to me what’s going on there, and how to achieve this
> in LilyPond?  I was thinking to use something like
>
> \graceAfter a1(  { s32) }
>
> but if this is a semi-standard musical construction I’m unfamiliar with,
> there might be a better way to code this.
>
> —Joel C. Salomon
>
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