Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
2014-12-23 23:24 GMT+01:00 Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl: Maybe google 'VPN' ? Sorry, don't understand how that helps anbody that is the exclusive club of long lear readers of this list. And VPN wouldn't help when I am off home. (I am one of the humans that save power by switching PCs off when I don't use them). Regards Helge ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
This is an interesting discussion. From the point of view of functionality, I agree with the Stack Overflow approach. I find it hard to agree that one really can get as much out of the content that's been posted if it's shared in email digest form. Certainly we have many powerful tools at our disposal to search and then sift through results, but at some point one has to concede that some newer ideas are pretty good. No one wants to use archie to search for files anymore. I can see that one might object to the fact that stackoverflow exists to monetize the comments. That is, a community of people (e.g. java programmers) uses it in exchange for seeing ads and perhaps having their posts used in some other way (not that I'm aware of this happening). While one may or may not agree with this view, it ought not to be trivialized. In this case, lilypond could have its own forum, based on GPL software like phpBB. On Wed Dec 24 2014 at 4:50:07 AM Helge Kruse helge.kr...@gmx.net wrote: 2014-12-23 23:24 GMT+01:00 Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl: Maybe google 'VPN' ? Sorry, don't understand how that helps anbody that is the exclusive club of long lear readers of this list. And VPN wouldn't help when I am off home. (I am one of the humans that save power by switching PCs off when I don't use them). Regards Helge ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Not that I have a lot to add on the subject, but it seems like stack overflow type forums are really concerned with providing definitive answers to questions. LilyPond is certainly not a static apparatus. Things are in a constant state of flux, and maybe in most areas minimal at this point, it is still often handier to simply ask afresh. And it seems at least to me that people who really use the program, begin to realize how to best attack specific usage problems after some initial shock of novel exposure to LilyPond. Anyway I don't much care one way or another how we arrive at helping the community use the program to best advantage as long as it is helpful and does not serve fragment the knowledge base which is really the end user even if the documentation is some of the best i have ever run across for something of this complexity. Shane On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Rob Torop r...@aya.yale.edu wrote: This is an interesting discussion. From the point of view of functionality, I agree with the Stack Overflow approach. I find it hard to agree that one really can get as much out of the content that's been posted if it's shared in email digest form. Certainly we have many powerful tools at our disposal to search and then sift through results, but at some point one has to concede that some newer ideas are pretty good. No one wants to use archie to search for files anymore. I can see that one might object to the fact that stackoverflow exists to monetize the comments. That is, a community of people (e.g. java programmers) uses it in exchange for seeing ads and perhaps having their posts used in some other way (not that I'm aware of this happening). While one may or may not agree with this view, it ought not to be trivialized. In this case, lilypond could have its own forum, based on GPL software like phpBB. On Wed Dec 24 2014 at 4:50:07 AM Helge Kruse helge.kr...@gmx.net wrote: 2014-12-23 23:24 GMT+01:00 Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl: Maybe google 'VPN' ? Sorry, don't understand how that helps anbody that is the exclusive club of long lear readers of this list. And VPN wouldn't help when I am off home. (I am one of the humans that save power by switching PCs off when I don't use them). Regards Helge ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Ted Lemon wrote Yeah, so, this is intensely frustrating for anybody who tries to google for help with lilypond, because there are several dozen archives of the lilypond mailing list, each slightly different, so that if you do virtually any google search for help with lilypond, it returns a page with about a dozen identical copies of the same wrong answer I wonder... Why are there so many different archives of the lilypond mailing list? Would there be a way to prevent some of them from showing up in google search results? (e.g. by having them indicate no index in robots.txt) FWIW, I sometimes try a general search (DuckDuckGo), but just as often I'll start with the manuals (usually doing a single-page search on the index page of the notation manual), then I'll search either the LSR or the mailing list using the nabble interface ( http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/ ). ...and then ask on the mailing list if I get stuck. Cheers, -Paul -- View this message in context: http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/Guitar-charts-with-custom-chord-names-grids-tp169589p169688.html Sent from the User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Dec 24, 2014, at 12:52 PM, Paul Morris p...@paulwmorris.com wrote: I wonder... Why are there so many different archives of the lilypond mailing list? Would there be a way to prevent some of them from showing up in google search results? (e.g. by having them indicate no index in robots.txt) Attracting search clicks is a money-making proposition, particularly if it's cheap, so putting up an archive of a mailing list is an easy way to do that. There has to be content that will match searches in order for it to be worthwhile. You see the same thing with phpBB sites--there will be a dozen archives of any reasonably popular site, all just clickbait. So far StackOverflow seems to be policing this to the extent that it apparently doesn't happen with them. FWIW, I sometimes try a general search (DuckDuckGo), but just as often I'll start with the manuals (usually doing a single-page search on the index page of the notation manual), then I'll search either the LSR or the mailing list using the nabble interface ( http://lilypond.1069038.n5.nabble.com/ ). ...and then ask on the mailing list if I get stuck. The manuals are great as far as they go, but they aren't comprehensive, nor are they systematic. To the extent that I'm any good at typesetting manuscripts with Lilypond, it's a result of reading the manual, beating my head against some weird behavior, occasionally asking questions, and iterating. E.g., unless I have just missed some valuable resource, there is no systematic document about what can appear between the braces in any of \layout, \staff, \score, \book, etc. The information is in many cases _there_, but it's organized in such a way that it's a bit of a treasure hunt trying to find it. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
- Original Message - From: Ted Lemon mel...@fugue.com To: Garrett Fitzgerald sarekofvul...@gmail.com Cc: lilypond-user@gnu.org Sent: Monday, December 22, 2014 10:21 PM Subject: Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum On Dec 22, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Garrett Fitzgerald sarekofvul...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) Yeah, so, this is intensely frustrating for anybody who tries to google for help with lilypond, because there are several dozen archives of the lilypond mailing list, each slightly different, so that if you do virtually any google search for help with lilypond, it returns a page with about a dozen identical copies of the same wrong answer, a couple of random document pages for different versions of the document that don't tell you what you need to know, and nothing whatsoever useful. That's the internet for you. Definitive answers are frequently found by learning to use the manuals and their indices. -- Phil Holmes ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Dec 23, 2014, at 5:45 AM, Phil Holmes m...@philholmes.net wrote: Definitive answers are frequently found by learning to use the manuals and their indices. HAH! :) Believe me, if I hadn't RTFM'd, you'd have had such a barrage of silly questions from me yesterday you would have plotzed. But the manual is not an oracle. Anyway, I'm fine either way--I'm very grateful for the help I got yesterday, and also last time I asked a question a couple of weeks ago. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
To save other ignorant folks like me the trouble: Scores of Beauty is the lilypond blog at http://lilypondblog.org/ Scheme is a programming language used by lilypond: http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/extending/scheme-tutorial I wonder if http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page would be a good format for developing a “book”. Happiness to all. On Dec 23, 2014, at 5:29 AM, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org wrote: Am 23. Dezember 2014 12:07:52 MEZ, schrieb Peter Gentry peter.gen...@sunscales.co.uk: There are two strands in this. 1. Questions related to the use of LilyPond. 2. Questions related to the use of Scheme etc coding for tweaking LilyPond. The first is best served by the lilypond-user community. The second is dealt with to some extent in the Scores of Beauty but only goes so far. I'd even say there are only tiny appetizers on our blog. Information in the strange world of Scheme is rather patchy and usually assumes a high level of familiarity with the terms used. The list concept for instance and control of memory not to mention smobs. In these areas on line forums such as Stackoverflow provide a useful resource. It is arguable that (for example) the LilyPond interfaces ly:etc could be better explained. I also think that there should be much more information available,especially introductory gently-paced tutorials. I see three steps here,and as they are not fulky explained in a coherent manner it's extremely difficult to get somewhere: - Scheme in itself is difficult to grasp - it's even more complicated as there are so many dialects around. Solutions found on the net don't necessarily apply to Guile/LilyPond - Hiw Scheme gets Information out of LilyPond (the ly: aspect) is another big step. What would be needed IMO was a book like the Learning Manual that covers all if this. But of course: who should write this??? One *possible* approach could be to conceive tutorials as chapters of such a book. So people coukd contribute a comparably small section without having to tackle a complete book. But that would require that a number of those who are able (and I don't count ne in here) commit themselves at least somewhat. I am well aware that skilled programmers, clear thinking logicians and pedantic musicologists have little patience with blunderings of mere mortals - although a few show remarkable forebearance. If Lily use is to prosper and expand surely detailed information on the structure and philosophy of the code would benefit all. +1 Urs It goes without saying that LilyPond is one of the finest examples of open source collaboaration and is without equal in its genre. No harm in wanting the best to get better. Festive feliciatations to Lily folk everywhere. regards Peter Gentry ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Am 22.12.2014 um 22:26 schrieb Garrett Fitzgerald: It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/168297/on-which-site-are-lilypond-questions-on-topic ... or here http://osdir.com/ml/lilypond-user-gnu/2012-11/msg00025.html I brought up the same idea as the OP about 2 years ago – I was not the first one. (This was the first link I found (osdir.com), but there are (too) many places to find mails: lists.gnu.org, nabble.com, gmane.org, mail-archive.com, … which most often do not present the thread on one page.) As Urs already put it, this was the reaction: - only parts of what is discussed here is suitable for SO - our community is too small to be split up between different forums and I was fine with that. I understand the conservative approach because this mailing list is really good and should not be put in danger. But since then I got an even bigger fan of QA sites and the feature of receiving mails on the Lilypond tag my personal main advantage of a mailing list. I would now say: Whoever wants to ask on such a site and whoever wants to answer there should not be discouraged and time will tell, whether that works and whether it makes sense to have this parallel structure (QA + mailing list). We already have language-specific forums and other resources and this support list did not break down. My main point is still: You have the question and the answer together with a rating whether that was helpful on the same page – easily findable by search engines. tl;dr: Why not try it out. Cheers, Joram ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Am 23.12.2014 um 08:23 schrieb Johan Vromans: The list is a 'push' model interaction. SO and other forums are 'pull' - I need to visit them and ask for questions. I'm subscribed to 50+ forums, and 20+ mailing lists. It would take hours just to visit all forums. Browsing the messages from the mailing lists takes minutes. Yes, that's true I have the mailing list in my Thunderbird folder and can search for answer. Even when I'm currently not writing notes the folder is pushed from the mailing list. That's true as long I am at home with my PC. When I am visting somebody and need my folder I am lost. So I have to use google like any nooby. And then I am at the pull. The mailing list is very good. But when you have something like stackexchange where - the question and answers are put together - you can format the text including code highlight - you can search only for the questions with specific tags then it can become a valueable knowledge base. Regards Helge ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Tue, 23 Dec 2014 21:07:43 +0100 Helge Kruse helge.kr...@gmx.net wrote: That's true as long I am at home with my PC. When I am visting somebody and need my folder I am lost. So I have to use google like any nooby. Maybe google 'VPN' ? -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 06:58:58PM +0100, Noeck wrote: Am 22.12.2014 um 22:26 schrieb Garrett Fitzgerald: It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/168297/on-which-site-are-lilypond-questions-on-topic ... or here http://osdir.com/ml/lilypond-user-gnu/2012-11/msg00025.html I brought up the same idea as the OP about 2 years ago ? I was not the first one. (This was the first link I found (osdir.com), but there are (too) many places to find mails: lists.gnu.org, nabble.com, gmane.org, mail-archive.com, ? which most often do not present the thread on one page.) Just in case there are some here who are not aware of this, I'll point out that it is possible to restrict Google search results to a specific site, so you can use Google to search the LilyPond archive at the archive site that you like best: tablature site:.nabble.com Or whatever site you like. I would think that puts the too many archive sites problem to bed. I'm not trying to take a side in the debate, just offering a tip to those who are trying diligently to search the LilyPond archives, and being dismayed that there are so many duplicate copies of the archive to wade through. Use the Google search tip above to search only the archive you want results from. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Dec 23, 2014, at 5:46 PM, Jim Long lilyp...@umpquanet.com wrote: Use the Google search tip above to search only the archive you want results from. The beauty of Google Search is that it searches everywhere, not just one place, so it'll return results from mailing lists, stack exchange, random blogs, etc. So throwing chaff into the search engine really detracts from its effectiveness. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Mike, I like the idea. The ability to have some formatting is good (e.g. to highlight code fragments) and being able to search is nice. Of course the key thing is to have the people who know lilypond really well using it too :-) (that excludes me!) On Mon Dec 22 2014 at 4:08:18 PM Mike Kilmer m...@madhappy.com wrote: Hi and Happy Holidays all. I had posted a few initial lilypond questions on StackOverflow.com and received some good responses. I've found S.O. to be a very user-friendly format for coding questions and answers (in terms of ease of posting and reading code/syntax) and am curious that the lilypond community isn't making more use of it. I welcome your thoughts. Mike Michael Kilmer Media Zoo Music, Theater, Multimedia and Web Development i...@mzoo.org 201-679-4168 *www.mZoo.org http://www.mZoo.org* www.m http://www.IndieGogo.com/Joys*adhappy.com http://adhappy.com* *www.explorepensacolahistory.com http://www.explorepensacolahistory.com* *www.rivka.com http://www.rivka.com* ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Dec 22, 2014, at 11:14 PM, Rob Torop r...@aya.yale.edu wrote: Mike, I like the idea. The ability to have some formatting is good (e.g. to highlight code fragments) and being able to search is nice. Of course the key thing is to have the people who know lilypond really well using it too :-) (that excludes me!) On Mon Dec 22 2014 at 4:08:18 PM Mike Kilmer m...@madhappy.com mailto:m...@madhappy.com wrote: Hi and Happy Holidays all. I had posted a few initial lilypond questions on StackOverflow.com http://stackoverflow.com/ and received some good responses. I’ve found S.O. to be a very user-friendly format for coding questions and answers (in terms of ease of posting and reading code/syntax) and am curious that the lilypond community isn’t making more use of it. I welcome your thoughts. Mike Michael Kilmer Media Zoo Music, Theater, Multimedia and Web Development i...@mzoo.org mailto:i...@mzoo.org 201-679-4168 www.mZoo.org http://www.mzoo.org/www.m http://www.indiegogo.com/Joysadhappy.com http://adhappy.com/www.explorepensacolahistory.com http://www.explorepensacolahistory.com/ www.rivka.com http://www.rivka.com/ Check out stackexchange when you get a chance - it is made by the same company that makes stackoverflow and is likely a better forum for lilypond related exchange. Cheers, MS___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
We've had this discussion a year or so. The main argument against SO was twofold: - only parts of what is discussed here is suitable for SO - our community is too small to be split up between different forums Urs Am 22. Dezember 2014 22:07:56 MEZ, schrieb Mike Kilmer m...@madhappy.com: Hi and Happy Holidays all. I had posted a few initial lilypond questions on StackOverflow.com and received some good responses. I’ve found S.O. to be a very user-friendly format for coding questions and answers (in terms of ease of posting and reading code/syntax) and am curious that the lilypond community isn’t making more use of it. I welcome your thoughts. Mike Michael Kilmer Media Zoo Music, Theater, Multimedia and Web Development i...@mzoo.org 201-679-4168 www.mZoo.org www.madhappy.com www.explorepensacolahistory.com www.rivka.com ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) http://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/168297/on-which-site-are-lilypond-questions-on-topic On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:23 PM, Urs Liska u...@openlilylib.org wrote: We've had this discussion a year or so. The main argument against SO was twofold: - only parts of what is discussed here is suitable for SO - our community is too small to be split up between different forums Urs Am 22. Dezember 2014 22:07:56 MEZ, schrieb Mike Kilmer m...@madhappy.com : Hi and Happy Holidays all. I had posted a few initial lilypond questions on StackOverflow.com and received some good responses. I’ve found S.O. to be a very user-friendly format for coding questions and answers (in terms of ease of posting and reading code/syntax) and am curious that the lilypond community isn’t making more use of it. I welcome your thoughts. Mike Michael Kilmer Media Zoo Music, Theater, Multimedia and Web Development i...@mzoo.org 201-679-4168 *www.mZoo.org http://www.mZoo.org* www.m http://www.IndieGogo.com/Joys*adhappy.com http://adhappy.com* *www.explorepensacolahistory.com http://www.explorepensacolahistory.com* *www.rivka.com http://www.rivka.com* -- lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Dec 22, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Garrett Fitzgerald sarekofvul...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) Yeah, so, this is intensely frustrating for anybody who tries to google for help with lilypond, because there are several dozen archives of the lilypond mailing list, each slightly different, so that if you do virtually any google search for help with lilypond, it returns a page with about a dozen identical copies of the same wrong answer, a couple of random document pages for different versions of the document that don't tell you what you need to know, and nothing whatsoever useful. So essentially, when you give this as the answer to the question why not use stack overflow, what you are really saying is don't google for help with Lilypond. Instead, just ask your question. That's sort of a reasonable thing to say: whenever I ask a question on the mailing list, some helpful person (or likely two) come back with an answer. But this isn't an answer that scales: if lilypond were to get more popular, at some point this would no longer work, and it seems to me that the difficulty of getting answers out of google is an impediment to lilypond's popularity. It just astonishes me that when I google for something like how to shrink a staff in lilypond I can't find any useful answer (although I find dozens of copies of the same utterly absurd answer: just shrink the notes, but keep the staff the same size!), and I think part of that is the way lilypond questions are asked and answered. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Il 22/dic/2014 23:21 Ted Lemon mel...@fugue.com ha scritto: On Dec 22, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Garrett Fitzgerald sarekofvul...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) Yeah, so, this is intensely frustrating for anybody who tries to google for help with lilypond, because there are several dozen archives of the lilypond mailing list, each slightly different, so that if you do virtually any google search for help with lilypond, it returns a page with about a dozen identical copies of the same wrong answer, a couple of random document pages for different versions of the document that don't tell you what you need to know, and nothing whatsoever useful. So essentially, when you give this as the answer to the question why not use stack overflow, what you are really saying is don't google for help with Lilypond. Instead, just ask your question. That's sort of a reasonable thing to say: whenever I ask a question on the mailing list, some helpful person (or likely two) come back with an answer. But this isn't an answer that scales: if lilypond were to get more popular, at some point this would no longer work, and it seems to me that the difficulty of getting answers out of google is an impediment to lilypond's popularity. It just astonishes me that when I google for something like how to shrink a staff in lilypond I can't find any useful answer (although I find dozens of copies of the same utterly absurd answer: just shrink the notes, but keep the staff the same size!), and I think part of that is the way lilypond questions are asked and answered. I can understand your frustration. I think that LilyPond team's choices are sometimes a bit conservative. QA websites are just way better than a traditional mailing list. Period. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On 12/22/2014 04:36 PM, Federico Bruni wrote: I can understand your frustration. I think that LilyPond team's choices are sometimes a bit conservative. QA websites are just way better than a traditional mailing list. Period. My 2¢: Nothing is stopping anyone from asking and answering questions on StackOverflow. However, effective answers come from critical mass of the knowledgeable user community, and right now that critical mass is here. If enough people start using StackOverflow, then the critical mass will be there... and likely this list will wither. Personally, I *like* the mailing list, because I scan the discussion going by, even when it’s not currently relevant to me, and often something rings a bell later when I need it. If everyone who thinks SO is better uses it... then eventually, it’ll become the place to go. Democracy in action, or something. ~Chris -- Chris Maden, text nerd URL: http://crism.maden.org/ Surround hate and force it to surrender. GnuPG fingerprint: DB08 CF6C 2583 7F55 3BE9 A210 4A51 DBAC 5C5C 3D5E ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
Ted, you wrote Monday, December 22, 2014 10:21 PM On Dec 22, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Garrett Fitzgerald sarekofvul...@gmail.com wrote: It's actually been discussed on meta - consensus is that people should actually come over here for help. :-) So essentially, when you give this as the answer to the question why not use stack overflow, what you are really saying is don't google for help with Lilypond. Instead, just ask your question. Yes, or use the manuals. They have good indexes, and much of what appears there is as a result of users asking questions on the mailing list. Did you try looking for footnote in the index to the Notation Reference? Although searching the mailing list archives directly is often productive. That's sort of a reasonable thing to say: whenever I ask a question on the mailing list, some helpful person (or likely two) come back with an answer. But this isn't an answer that scales: if lilypond were to get more popular, at some point this would no longer work, and it seems to me that the difficulty of getting answers out of google is an impediment to lilypond's popularity. I think is scales very well. More often than not it is users who answer questions on the user list, not developers. So as the number of users increases so does the number of users willing to answer questions. It just astonishes me that when I google for something like how to shrink a staff in lilypond I can't find any useful answer (although I find dozens of copies of the same utterly absurd answer: just shrink the notes, but keep the staff the same size!), and I think part of that is the way lilypond questions are asked and answered. Part of the reason for that is that the \magnifyStaff function was added only recently, to 2.19.12 in fact, and is not yet well-documented in the manuals. You'd get no better answer on Stackoverflow - I for one don't use it. Trevor ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:52:45 -0600 Christopher R. Maden cr...@maden.org wrote: Personally, I *like* the mailing list, because I scan the discussion going by, even when it’s not currently relevant to me, and often something rings a bell later when I need it. Exactly. The list is a 'push' model interaction. SO and other forums are 'pull' - I need to visit them and ask for questions. I'm subscribed to 50+ forums, and 20+ mailing lists. It would take hours just to visit all forums. Browsing the messages from the mailing lists takes minutes. Also, most of the time SO pisses me off with search the archives or message deleted :( . If everyone who thinks SO is better uses it... then eventually, it’ll become the place to go. For the time being I consider the list very high quality, friendly, and to the point. I'll stay. -- Johan ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
2014-12-22 23:52 GMT+01:00 Christopher R. Maden cr...@maden.org: On 12/22/2014 04:36 PM, Federico Bruni wrote: I can understand your frustration. I think that LilyPond team's choices are sometimes a bit conservative. QA websites are just way better than a traditional mailing list. Period. My 2¢: Nothing is stopping anyone from asking and answering questions on StackOverflow. However, effective answers come from critical mass of the knowledgeable user community, and right now that critical mass is here. If enough people start using StackOverflow, then the critical mass will be there... and likely this list will wither. Actually I did not intend to promote StackOverflow in particular, just that kind of software. I agree with you: anyone should feel free to help wherever he feels like. But I remember that in old discussions on this topic the general idea, shared by most of people in this list, was: we should not split the community and the help resources in two different places. Personally, I *like* the mailing list, because I scan the discussion going by, even when it’s not currently relevant to me, and often something rings a bell later when I need it. If everyone who thinks SO is better uses it... then eventually, it’ll become the place to go. Democracy in action, or something. You can subscribe to the lilypond tag and get notifications when someone posts a question tagged with lilypond: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lilypond I'll explore more SO in the coming weeks. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
Re: Use of Stackoverflow for Question/Answer forum
2014-12-23 8:23 GMT+01:00 Johan Vromans jvrom...@squirrel.nl: On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 16:52:45 -0600 Christopher R. Maden cr...@maden.org wrote: Personally, I *like* the mailing list, because I scan the discussion going by, even when it’s not currently relevant to me, and often something rings a bell later when I need it. Exactly. The list is a 'push' model interaction. SO and other forums are 'pull' - I need to visit them and ask for questions. I'm subscribed to 50+ forums, and 20+ mailing lists. It would take hours just to visit all forums. Browsing the messages from the mailing lists takes minutes. As I wrote minutes ago, you can set also some push options. You can subscribe to the lilypond tag and get notifications when someone posts a question tagged with lilypond: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/lilypond You could even receive notifications only for specific topics. Let's say that you are interested in tablature notation only. Instead of receiving all the emails in this mailing list and filter out all that you don't care, you'd receive only what you're really interested in and can provide help. And you don't need to set up two mailing list for them. Just an example... Also, most of the time SO pisses me off with search the archives or message deleted :( . I've not much experience with SO but I guess that you can set some options to disable these messages. If everyone who thinks SO is better uses it... then eventually, it’ll become the place to go. For the time being I consider the list very high quality, friendly, and to the point. I'll stay. Me too :) But I want to keep an eye open on any better alternative, as my time is getting more and more limited and I don't know if I'll be able to stay in this list in the long term. ___ lilypond-user mailing list lilypond-user@gnu.org https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
