Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Simon Albrecht]

On 12.12.2017 01:12, Chris Jones wrote:

One example I looked at when I got started on this used double "<<  >>"
brackets to represent chords whereas the official lilypond documentation
recommends using single "<  >" brackets.

How are they different in terms of lilypond's behaviour?


The official LilyPond documentation tends to be correct, especially if 
you’re looking at the version corresponding to the program version 
you’re using.
Chords are entered using <>. <<>> are used to wrap ‘simultaneous music’, 
i.e. any number of music expressions that are going to be inserted in 
parallel – whether it’s within one voice, multiple voices in a staff or 
multiple staves/staff groups/… in a score.


This is such a fundamental concept that I have to say: you really should 
work yourself through the Learning Manual from beginning to end. One 
difference between LilyPond and other notation software with GUI is that 
it’s unfortunately a really bad idea to learn it by trial and error. 
There are several such fundamental concepts which you should get a grip 
on to save yourself lots of grey hair.
The Learning Manual also explains how to use the other documentation 
resources.


Best, Simon

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Chris Jones]

On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
> simple.

Time allowing... I managed to take another look at the documentation.

Will have to run additional tests and that may not be possible before
the weekend but in order to make lilypond do what I want in terms of
stem-connection for those (few) instances of cross-staff stems in this
particular score it looks as if I am going to have to define two voices,
right?

From reading the documentation I understand that the purpose of defining
two (or more) voices is to allow users to make lilypond engrave
concurrent notes of different durations (as opposed to chords) but in
this particular case there doesn't seem to be any other way to cause
lilypond to do what I need. 

And by the way, regarding chords... 

One example I looked at when I got started on this used double "<<  >>"
brackets to represent chords whereas the official lilypond documentation
recommends using single "<  >" brackets.

How are they different in terms of lilypond's behaviour?

Reason I am asking is that while I was tidying up my code a bit I tried
to "blindly" replace my double brackets by single brackets at one point
and got some peculiar results in terms of interpreting relative
notation.

Thought it was rather silly anyway to expect a blind search/replace with
no understanding of the implications to do the right thing so I just
backed out my changes and didn't think it worth investigating further.

Anything I should be aware of that I may have missed?

If irrelevant, please ignore.

Thanks,

CJ
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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[David Wright]

On Mon 11 Dec 2017 at 00:58:01 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Sun 10 Dec 2017 at 22:00:01 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> >> David Wright  writes:
> >> 
> >> > On Sat 09 Dec 2017 at 21:58:58 (-0500), Chris Jones wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> >> >> > Hi Chris,
> >> >> 
> >> >> > Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
> >> >> > simple.
> >> >> 
> >> >> > I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
> >> >> > By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
> >> >> > and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to
> >> >> > languish in the past!
> >> >> 
> >> >> I'll take another look at the "cross staff stems" documentation.
> >> >> 
> >> >> As to upgrading lilypond I tend to stick with the version that is
> >> >> provided by my distribution (debian stable) unless I really need one
> >> >> particular new feature. 
> >> >
> >> > Strictly speaking, Debian stable, currently stretch, doesn't
> >> > contain lilypond because it depends on guile-1.8-libs which
> >> > stretch doesn't support.
> >> 
> >> They just include the guile-1.8-libs internally to LilyPond and replace
> >> the LilyPond executable with a shell wrapper pointing LDPATH to them.
> >
> > I think you're referring to stretch-backports. If one is happy to
> > run backports, then I'd be surprised by any reluctance to run the
> > lilypond.org unstable version. 
> >
> > BTW do you have an opinion on the line being taken in
> > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-12/msg00231.html
> > I think a lot of people have difficulty with the term "unstable"
> > as used with free software, where it means "things will change"
> > rather than "things will fall over".
> 
> 2.19.80 is a stable prerelease.  That is, things are expected to change
> but not substantially so (unless they are broken without easy fix).

True, that's how it's described in the News, but most of the other
pointers to it naturally use the term unstable, which might be enough
to put off the most trepid. (Chris Jones didn't mention reasons for
not running a newer version on Debian.)

Cheers,
David.

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Sun 10 Dec 2017 at 22:00:01 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
>> David Wright  writes:
>> 
>> > On Sat 09 Dec 2017 at 21:58:58 (-0500), Chris Jones wrote:
>> >> On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
>> >> > Hi Chris,
>> >> 
>> >> > Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
>> >> > simple.
>> >> 
>> >> > I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
>> >> > By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
>> >> > and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to
>> >> > languish in the past!
>> >> 
>> >> I'll take another look at the "cross staff stems" documentation.
>> >> 
>> >> As to upgrading lilypond I tend to stick with the version that is
>> >> provided by my distribution (debian stable) unless I really need one
>> >> particular new feature. 
>> >
>> > Strictly speaking, Debian stable, currently stretch, doesn't
>> > contain lilypond because it depends on guile-1.8-libs which
>> > stretch doesn't support.
>> 
>> They just include the guile-1.8-libs internally to LilyPond and replace
>> the LilyPond executable with a shell wrapper pointing LDPATH to them.
>
> I think you're referring to stretch-backports. If one is happy to
> run backports, then I'd be surprised by any reluctance to run the
> lilypond.org unstable version. 
>
> BTW do you have an opinion on the line being taken in
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-12/msg00231.html
> I think a lot of people have difficulty with the term "unstable"
> as used with free software, where it means "things will change"
> rather than "things will fall over".

2.19.80 is a stable prerelease.  That is, things are expected to change
but not substantially so (unless they are broken without easy fix).

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[David Wright]

On Sun 10 Dec 2017 at 22:00:01 (+0100), David Kastrup wrote:
> David Wright  writes:
> 
> > On Sat 09 Dec 2017 at 21:58:58 (-0500), Chris Jones wrote:
> >> On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> >> > Hi Chris,
> >> 
> >> > Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
> >> > simple.
> >> 
> >> > I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
> >> > By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
> >> > and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to
> >> > languish in the past!
> >> 
> >> I'll take another look at the "cross staff stems" documentation.
> >> 
> >> As to upgrading lilypond I tend to stick with the version that is
> >> provided by my distribution (debian stable) unless I really need one
> >> particular new feature. 
> >
> > Strictly speaking, Debian stable, currently stretch, doesn't
> > contain lilypond because it depends on guile-1.8-libs which
> > stretch doesn't support.
> 
> They just include the guile-1.8-libs internally to LilyPond and replace
> the LilyPond executable with a shell wrapper pointing LDPATH to them.

I think you're referring to stretch-backports. If one is happy to
run backports, then I'd be surprised by any reluctance to run the
lilypond.org unstable version. 

BTW do you have an opinion on the line being taken in
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2017-12/msg00231.html
I think a lot of people have difficulty with the term "unstable"
as used with free software, where it means "things will change"
rather than "things will fall over".

Cheers,
David.

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Martin,

I perhaps did not express that clearly. 2.19.80 is in the development line
and it is technically marked 'unstable' as opposed to the 2.18.2 stable
release, because anything not 2.18.2 is called 'unstable'. But this does
not mean it is unstable and unusable. In actual use and practice the later
2.19 releases hardly ever crash and show very few defects. That's what I
mean by stable. I use the 2.19 series for difficult new Complexity school
scores and everything is good, no problems. Not a single crash even with
long scores in a couple of years.

Andrew



On 11 December 2017 at 04:57, J Martin Rushton <
martinrushto...@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
> Am I looking in the wrong place: http://lilypond.org/index.html ?  The
> page there lists 2.18.2 as the stable release and 2.19.80 as unstable.
>
> Martin
>
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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[David Kastrup]

David Wright  writes:

> On Sat 09 Dec 2017 at 21:58:58 (-0500), Chris Jones wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
>> > Hi Chris,
>> 
>> > Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
>> > simple.
>> 
>> > I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
>> > By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
>> > and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to
>> > languish in the past!
>> 
>> I'll take another look at the "cross staff stems" documentation.
>> 
>> As to upgrading lilypond I tend to stick with the version that is
>> provided by my distribution (debian stable) unless I really need one
>> particular new feature. 
>
> Strictly speaking, Debian stable, currently stretch, doesn't
> contain lilypond because it depends on guile-1.8-libs which
> stretch doesn't support.

They just include the guile-1.8-libs internally to LilyPond and replace
the LilyPond executable with a shell wrapper pointing LDPATH to them.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[David Wright]

On Sat 09 Dec 2017 at 21:58:58 (-0500), Chris Jones wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> > Hi Chris,
> 
> > Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
> > simple.
> 
> > I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
> > By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
> > and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to
> > languish in the past!
> 
> I'll take another look at the "cross staff stems" documentation.
> 
> As to upgrading lilypond I tend to stick with the version that is
> provided by my distribution (debian stable) unless I really need one
> particular new feature. 

Strictly speaking, Debian stable, currently stretch, doesn't
contain lilypond because it depends on guile-1.8-libs which
stretch doesn't support.

There's no need to disturb the LP installation you already have;
you can use the up-to-date version merely by downloading it, then

$ cd ~
$ bash .../lilypond-2.19.80-1.linux-x86.sh --prefix lilypond-2.19.80-1
$ ~/lilypond-2.19.80-1/bin/lilypond your-source-file.ly

If you like it, you could

$ alias lily='~/lilypond-2.19.80-1/bin/lilypond'

and then

$ lily your-source-file.ly

(... is the path to wherever your downloads go.)

Cheers,
David.

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Ben]

On 12/10/2017 12:57 PM, J Martin Rushton wrote:

On 10/12/17 01:29, Andrew Bernard wrote:

Hi Chris,

Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
simple.

I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to languish
in the past!

Andrew


Hi Andrew,

Am I looking in the wrong place: http://lilypond.org/index.html ?  The
page there lists 2.18.2 as the stable release and 2.19.80 as unstable.

Martin




Yes, 2.19.80 is the most recent unstable version.
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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[J Martin Rushton]

On 10/12/17 01:29, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Hi Chris,
> 
> Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
> simple.
> 
> I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
> By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
> and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to languish
> in the past!
> 
> Andrew
> 
Hi Andrew,

Am I looking in the wrong place: http://lilypond.org/index.html ?  The
page there lists 2.18.2 as the stable release and 2.19.80 as unstable.

Martin



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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Chris,

The best way is to download the release from the lilypond website - distro
versions are always old.

Andrew


On 10 December 2017 at 13:58, Chris Jones  wrote:

>
>
> If an upgrade is at all necessary within the limited scope of this
> particular project, I will check out more current environments that
> I have handy (archlinux, ubuntu) so I can look at once in a while in
> case I'm wondering which way things are headed.
>
> I'll remember to take a quick peek some time tomorrow... see what they
> have to offer.
>
>
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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Chris Jones]

On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:29:54PM EST, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> Hi Chris,

> Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
> simple.

> I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
> By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable
> and the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to
> languish in the past!

I'll take another look at the "cross staff stems" documentation.

As to upgrading lilypond I tend to stick with the version that is
provided by my distribution (debian stable) unless I really need one
particular new feature. 

If an upgrade is at all necessary within the limited scope of this
particular project, I will check out more current environments that
I have handy (archlinux, ubuntu) so I can look at once in a while in
case I'm wondering which way things are headed.

I'll remember to take a quick peek some time tomorrow... see what they
have to offer.

Thanks,

CJ

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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Andrew Bernard]

Hi Chris,

Just look up the syntax for 'cross staff stems' in the NR. It's pretty
simple.

I don't know much about 2.18.2, but I imagine that feature is there.
By the way, have you considered upgrading to 2.19.80? It's very stable and
the 19 series have so many good features it seems a pity to languish in the
past!

Andrew

https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
>
>
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Re: cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Chris Jones]

On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 08:18:49PM EST, Chris Jones wrote:

> I am attaching a .png file of the "before vs. after" type.

Oops... forgot to attach the image!

Here goes.

Thanks,

CJ
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cross-staff stems in a piano part

[Chris Jones]

I am attaching a .png file of the "before vs. after" type.

The top version is what I achieved with the following "simple example":

|   \version "2.18.2"
|   
|   global = {
| \key g \major
| \time 4/4
|   }
|   
|   right = \relative c'' {
| \global
| <> <> <> <>  |
| % etc.
|   }
|   
|   left = \relative c' {
| \global
| \override Stem.direction = #DOWN
| <> <> <> <>  |
| % etc.
|   }
|   
|   \score {
| \new PianoStaff \with {
|   instrumentName = "Piano"
| } <<
|   \new Staff = "right" \with {
|   } \right
|   \new Staff = "left" \with {
|   } { \clef bass \left }
| >>
| \layout { }
|   }

The bottom version is the layout I need to create.

The difference between the two concerns the third beat of bar #1 where an
extra cross-staff stem is added between the D and the A below it.

Likewise regarding beat #4 where I want the C "connected" to the the A.

Naturally the stems connecting the two lower notes should no longer
extend to the the notes above!

How can I tell lilypond to produce this kind of layout?

All apologies for the obscure wording.

Thanks,

CJ

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