Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Carolyn Beeton]

OK thanks everyone.  It is clearly moving things around to get the two notes 
tucked together without interfering.   The prefer-dotted-right override only 
works on the upper note.  I was just surprised to see so many different shifts 
in one line of music, but that’s what it takes to keep everything clear. 

Thanks,
Carolyn


> On Aug 1, 2023, at 12:11 PM, Abraham Lee  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 8:12 AM Carolyn Beeton  > wrote:
>> Thanks Abraham
>> 
>> I have read that section again and I am still a bit confused at what I am 
>> seeing in this attempt at a MWE.  In bar 2 the voiceTwo notes are shifted 
>> right, but in bar 5 the voiceOne note, a dotted note, is being shifted to 
>> the right.  I have tried using the Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right 
>> override but that doesn’t seem to help.  In bar 7 there is a different 
>> construct with temporary voices and there the shifting looks like what I 
>> want.  I am trying to get the dotted stemUp note in bar 5 to be shifted left.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> \version "2.24.0"
>> \include "english.ly "
>> 
>> SopranoMusic = \relative c'
>> {
>>   fs4 fs e | d d d | b'2 b4 | a d, e | d2.^\markup "why right?" | s2. | s2.
>> } 
>> 
>> AltoMusic = \relative  c'
>> { 
>>   d4 d cs | b cs c | b2 d4 | d d cs | d4 d e | << { fs4 e d | e2. } \\ { d2 
>> s4 | d b cs } >>
>> } 
>> 
>> \score {
>>   \new Staff
>>   <<
>> \key d \major
>> \time 3/4
>> \new Voice = "sopranos"
>> {
>>   \override Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right = ##f
>>   \voiceOne
>>   <<  
>> { \SopranoMusic }
>>   >>
>> }
>> \new Voice = "altos"
>> { 
>>   \voiceTwo
>>   <<  
>> { \AltoMusic }
>>   >>
>> }
>>   >>
>>   \layout { }
>> }
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Carolyn
>> 
>>> On Jul 31, 2023, at 10:36 PM, Abraham Lee >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, Carolyn!
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Carolyn Beeton >> > wrote:
 The default when there are two voices with colliding notes is to shift the 
 voice with upstems (odd-numbered voices) to the right and voices with 
 downstems to the left.  I would like the opposite - i.e. voiceOne, with 
 stems up, shifted left.  Is this possible?  (not as a single override, but 
 throughout the entire piece)
>>> 
>>> I trust you've seen this section in the NR on collision resolution, but if 
>>> not, here it is:
>>> 
>>> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/multiple-voices#collision-resolution
>>>  
>>> 
>>> Do any of these techniques not help? And if not, perhaps you could show a 
>>> screenshot or provide a small example of the shifting you don't want so we 
>>> can target the problem.
> 
> I won't pretend to understand the internal mechanism that decides which side 
> the notes should go on, but I would have expected the correction to work as 
> you did with prefer-dotted-right = ##f, which it doesn't.  I also tried the 
> NoteColumn.force-hshift property, which kind of works. The note would move 
> successfully, but the dot wouldn't go with it. This would also need to be a 
> local override and unable to control it globally.
> 
> What is done is conventional notation, but I'm curious what is driving your 
> need to move d2. to the left in m.5? If it's for clarity, I wouldn't 
> recommend it, but maybe you have a different reason.
> 
> Sorry I couldn't be more helpful,
> Abraham

Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Jakob Pedersen]

Hello Carolyn,

I think what you are asking for is making it look something like this:



I made that using a graphics program, not lilypond.

While I get why you'd want it to look the same as similar places, I 
think that 1) this is harder to read, because it looks like the first 
crotchet is positioned where the second beat of the measure would be, 
and 2) the lilypond placement on the left of the dotted minim is the 
"right" or at least standard way of typesetting this type of collision.


Best wishes,
Jakob

On 01.08.2023 16.11, Carolyn Beeton wrote:

Thanks Abraham

I have read that section again and I am still a bit confused at what I 
am seeing in this attempt at a MWE.  In bar 2 the voiceTwo notes are 
shifted right, but in bar 5 the voiceOne note, a dotted note, is being 
shifted to the right.  I have tried using the 
Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right override but that doesn’t seem 
to help.  In bar 7 there is a different construct with temporary 
voices and there the shifting looks like what I want.  I am trying to 
get the dotted stemUp note in bar 5 to be shifted left.


PastedGraphic-1.png

\version"2.24.0"

\include"english.ly"


SopranoMusic = \relativec'

{

fs4fse| ddd| b'2b4| ad,e| d2.^\markup"why right?"| s2.| s2.

}


AltoMusic = \relativec'

{

d4dcs| bcsc| b2d4| ddcs| d4de| <<{fs4ed| e2.}\\{d2s4| dbcs}>>

}


\score{

\newStaff

<<

\keyd\major

\time3/4

\newVoice= "sopranos"

{

\overrideStaff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right = ##f

\voiceOne

<<

{\SopranoMusic }

>>

}

\newVoice= "altos"

{

\voiceTwo

<<

{\AltoMusic }

>>

}

>>

\layout{}

}


Thanks,
Carolyn

On Jul 31, 2023, at 10:36 PM, Abraham Lee 
 wrote:


Hi, Carolyn!

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Carolyn Beeton 
 wrote:


The default when there are two voices with colliding notes is to
shift the voice with upstems (odd-numbered voices) to the right
and voices with downstems to the left.  I would like the opposite
- i.e. voiceOne, with stems up, shifted left.  Is this possible? 
(not as a single override, but throughout the entire piece)


I trust you've seen this section in the NR on collision resolution, 
but if not, here it is:


https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/multiple-voices#collision-resolution 



Do any of these techniques not help? And if not, perhaps you could 
show a screenshot or provide a small example of the shifting you 
don't want so we can target the problem.


Hope that helps,
Abraham

Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Abraham Lee]

On Tue, Aug 1, 2023 at 8:12 AM Carolyn Beeton 
wrote:

> Thanks Abraham
>
> I have read that section again and I am still a bit confused at what I am
> seeing in this attempt at a MWE.  In bar 2 the voiceTwo notes are shifted
> right, but in bar 5 the voiceOne note, a dotted note, is being shifted to
> the right.  I have tried using the Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right
> override but that doesn’t seem to help.  In bar 7 there is a different
> construct with temporary voices and there the shifting looks like what I
> want.  I am trying to get the dotted stemUp note in bar 5 to be shifted
> left.
>
> [image: PastedGraphic-1.png]
>
> \version "2.24.0"
>
> \include "english.ly"
>
>
> SopranoMusic = \relative c'
>
> {
>
>   fs4 fs e | d d d | b'2 b4 | a d, e | d2.^\markup "why right?" | s2. |
> s2.
>
> }
>
>
> AltoMusic = \relative  c'
>
> {
>
>   d4 d cs | b cs c | b2 d4 | d d cs | d4 d e | << { fs4 e d | e2. } \\ {
> d2 s4 | d b cs } >>
>
> }
>
>
> \score {
>
>   \new Staff
>
>   <<
>
> \key d \major
>
> \time 3/4
>
> \new Voice = "sopranos"
>
> {
>
>   \override Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right = ##f
>
>   \voiceOne
>
>   <<
>
> { \SopranoMusic }
>
>   >>
>
> }
>
> \new Voice = "altos"
>
> {
>
>   \voiceTwo
>
>   <<
>
> { \AltoMusic }
>
>   >>
>
> }
>
>   >>
>
>   \layout { }
>
> }
>
> Thanks,
> Carolyn
>
> On Jul 31, 2023, at 10:36 PM, Abraham Lee 
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Carolyn!
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Carolyn Beeton 
> wrote:
>
>> The default when there are two voices with colliding notes is to shift
>> the voice with upstems (odd-numbered voices) to the right and voices with
>> downstems to the left.  I would like the opposite - i.e. voiceOne, with
>> stems up, shifted left.  Is this possible?  (not as a single override, but
>> throughout the entire piece)
>>
>
> I trust you've seen this section in the NR on collision resolution, but if
> not, here it is:
>
>
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/multiple-voices#collision-resolution
>
>
> Do any of these techniques not help? And if not, perhaps you could show a
> screenshot or provide a small example of the shifting you don't want so we
> can target the problem.
>
>
I won't pretend to understand the internal mechanism that decides which
side the notes should go on, but I would have expected the correction to
work as you did with prefer-dotted-right = ##f, which it doesn't.  I also
tried the NoteColumn.force-hshift property, which kind of works. The note
would move successfully, but the dot wouldn't go with it. This would also
need to be a local override and unable to control it globally.

What is done is conventional notation, but I'm curious what is driving your
need to move d2. to the left in m.5? If it's for clarity, I wouldn't
recommend it, but maybe you have a different reason.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful,
Abraham

Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Michael Gerdau]

Hallo Carolyn,


I have read that section again and I am still a bit confused at what I 
am seeing in this attempt at a MWE.  In bar 2 the voiceTwo notes are 
shifted right, but in bar 5 the voiceOne note, a dotted note, is being 
shifted to the right.  I have tried using the 
Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right override but that doesn’t seem 
to help.  In bar 7 there is a different construct with temporary voices 
and there the shifting looks like what I want.  I am trying to get the 
dotted stemUp note in bar 5 to be shifted left.

[code example snipped]

I'm not sure I understand you. Do you want the dotted half-note d in Bar 
5 moved to the left of the quarter note d (of the 2nd voice) similar to 
what we see in bar 7?


If so, that would create a rather large shift of the quarter note d (of 
the 2nd voice) - it would basically start where the 2n quarter note d is 
now. Such a placement would very much irritate as it would like as if 
there is a rest missing on the first beat.


Or am I misunderstanding you?

Kind regards,
Michael
--
 Michael Gerdau   email: m...@qata.de
 GPG-keys available on request or at public keyserver

Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[David Kastrup]

Carolyn Beeton  writes:

> I have read that section again and I am still a bit confused at what I
> am seeing in this attempt at a MWE.  In bar 2 the voiceTwo notes are
> shifted right, but in bar 5 the voiceOne note, a dotted note, is being
> shifted to the right.  I have tried using the
> Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right override but that doesn’t seem
> to help.  In bar 7 there is a different construct with temporary
> voices and there the shifting looks like what I want.  I am trying to
> get the dotted stemUp note in bar 5 to be shifted left.

I am having trouble envisioning where you'd want the dot to go.  Maybe
LilyPond is having similar trouble?

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Carolyn Beeton]

Thanks Abraham

I have read that section again and I am still a bit confused at what I am 
seeing in this attempt at a MWE.  In bar 2 the voiceTwo notes are shifted 
right, but in bar 5 the voiceOne note, a dotted note, is being shifted to the 
right.  I have tried using the Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right override 
but that doesn’t seem to help.  In bar 7 there is a different construct with 
temporary voices and there the shifting looks like what I want.  I am trying to 
get the dotted stemUp note in bar 5 to be shifted left.



\version "2.24.0"
\include "english.ly"

SopranoMusic = \relative c'
{
  fs4 fs e | d d d | b'2 b4 | a d, e | d2.^\markup "why right?" | s2. | s2.
} 

AltoMusic = \relative  c'
{ 
  d4 d cs | b cs c | b2 d4 | d d cs | d4 d e | << { fs4 e d | e2. } \\ { d2 s4 
| d b cs } >>
} 

\score {
  \new Staff
  <<
\key d \major
\time 3/4
\new Voice = "sopranos"
{
  \override Staff.NoteCollision.prefer-dotted-right = ##f
  \voiceOne
  <<  
{ \SopranoMusic }
  >>
}
\new Voice = "altos"
{ 
  \voiceTwo
  <<  
{ \AltoMusic }
  >>
}
  >>
  \layout { }
}

Thanks,
Carolyn

> On Jul 31, 2023, at 10:36 PM, Abraham Lee  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Carolyn!
> 
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Carolyn Beeton  > wrote:
>> The default when there are two voices with colliding notes is to shift the 
>> voice with upstems (odd-numbered voices) to the right and voices with 
>> downstems to the left.  I would like the opposite - i.e. voiceOne, with 
>> stems up, shifted left.  Is this possible?  (not as a single override, but 
>> throughout the entire piece)
> 
> I trust you've seen this section in the NR on collision resolution, but if 
> not, here it is:
> 
> https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/multiple-voices#collision-resolution
>  
> 
> Do any of these techniques not help? And if not, perhaps you could show a 
> screenshot or provide a small example of the shifting you don't want so we 
> can target the problem.
> 
> Hope that helps,
> Abraham

Re: note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Abraham Lee]

Hi, Carolyn!

On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 8:22 AM Carolyn Beeton 
wrote:

> The default when there are two voices with colliding notes is to shift the
> voice with upstems (odd-numbered voices) to the right and voices with
> downstems to the left.  I would like the opposite - i.e. voiceOne, with
> stems up, shifted left.  Is this possible?  (not as a single override, but
> throughout the entire piece)
>

I trust you've seen this section in the NR on collision resolution, but if
not, here it is:

https://lilypond.org/doc/v2.24/Documentation/notation/multiple-voices#collision-resolution


Do any of these techniques not help? And if not, perhaps you could show a
screenshot or provide a small example of the shifting you don't want so we
can target the problem.

Hope that helps,
Abraham

note collision - shift voiceOne to left

[Carolyn Beeton]

The default when there are two voices with colliding notes is to shift the 
voice with upstems (odd-numbered voices) to the right and voices with downstems 
to the left.  I would like the opposite - i.e. voiceOne, with stems up, shifted 
left.  Is this possible?  (not as a single override, but throughout the entire 
piece)

Thanks,
Carolyn