Re: [LAD] Favorite Python3 equivalent of PyJack?
On Wednesday 20 April 2016 11:10:24 Christopher Arndt wrote: Your OpenPGP signature is bad coming in here, Christopher. > Am 20.04.2016 um 13:50 schrieb Matthias Geier: > > I'm probably biased (because I'm its author), but I like this one: > > http://jackclient-python.rtfd.org/ > > Thanks for the link. Not sure, if I had this project already on the > radar. > > From the documentation: > > "Installing NumPy with pip is not recommended." > > Why do you write that? I have had no problems installing Numpy > numerous times with pip (on Linux). Are you referring to a system-wide > installation of Numpy? I usually use a virtualenv for every project > anyway, and Numpy installs into virtualenv without problems. > > > Chris Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene> ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] TOKOKY
On Saturday 09 April 2016 11:19:02 Len Ovens wrote: > On Sat, 9 Apr 2016, Andrej Candrák wrote: > > > > > > Hmm no text, empty message. > The jpeg was the message, I wouldn't click on it ever. > -- > Len Ovens > www.ovenwerks.net Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene> ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] No sound after login
On Wednesday 02 March 2016 18:05:54 Len Ovens wrote: > On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Gene Heskett wrote: > > This has been a PIMA here for a couple years, surviving at least one > > full fresh install to a new HD. > > > > I hear a very strong thump during the bootup at about the time the > > modules are loaded, which tells me the audio is alive and well. > > > > However, when I have initially logged in and the system is ready to > > be used for whatever my urges want to, if I want to hear the sound > > on a web site as a news story is played, I must first call up a > > terminal and issue: > > > > alsactl restore > > > > Now it seems to me there ought to be someplace in the junk that runs > > after the login, to put a "/usr/sbin/alsactl restore", where it will > > be executed as me, and this problem then should be fixed, at least > > until a new install is done. > > /etc/xdg/autostart/ > or > ~/.config/autostart/ > > Build a desktop file that has alsactl restore as it's command. > > There will probably be examples in one of the above directories. > > The question I have is what distro are you using that doesn't do this > on it's own already? (I am not sure what mine does to restore sound, I > just know it does) > This particular install is a special, based on wheezy, but with a pinned hard realtime (RTAI modified) kernel for running CNC machinery. You can get the iso from linuxcnc.org. The only audio thing running, according to htop, is kmix. I do not see any telltale footprints from PA in the htop listing. > It occures to me PA may be the thing that does this... and removing PA > for proaudio work is common. Likely, for a machine tool targeted OS, PA would be considered overkill. The other 3 machines running this install are lucky if they even have a $0.29 (USD) speaker in them to make beeps. Likely not even heard if the machinery is running. > -- > Len Ovens > www.ovenwerks.net Thanks Len. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene> ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] No sound after login
On Wednesday 02 March 2016 16:55:38 Cedric Roux wrote: > > Now it seems to me there ought to be someplace in the junk that runs > > after the login, to put a "/usr/sbin/alsactl restore", where it will > > be executed as me, and this problem then should be fixed, at least > > until a new install is done. > > > > The question is where? > > ~/.profile > maybe I'll give that a shot for S Thanks Cedric. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene> ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] No sound after login
Greetings; This has been a PIMA here for a couple years, surviving at least one full fresh install to a new HD. I hear a very strong thump during the bootup at about the time the modules are loaded, which tells me the audio is alive and well. However, when I have initially logged in and the system is ready to be used for whatever my urges want to, if I want to hear the sound on a web site as a news story is played, I must first call up a terminal and issue: alsactl restore Now it seems to me there ought to be someplace in the junk that runs after the login, to put a "/usr/sbin/alsactl restore", where it will be executed as me, and this problem then should be fixed, at least until a new install is done. The question is where? Thank you. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene> ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] User eXperience in Linux Audio
On Saturday 25 April 2015 03:50:21 Will Godfrey wrote: One of my pet hates is erratic implementation of tooltips... that can't be disabled! +10 Either provide them for *every* control or not at all, and *please* provide a way to disable them. +100 Ideally there should be a way to enable/disable them from every part of your application, so that an experienced user has them off (and out of the way) but on using an obscure feature can briefly re-enable them. And, whoever thought it was a good idea, gets 10 lashes for doing the 10 second time out when the thing is stting on the next damned button you need. Damit folks, if you have to have it, kill the SOB when the mouse moves the next pixel! Let us get on with our work. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Experience driven design and Linux Audio
On Wednesday 01 October 2014 01:04:52 hermann meyer did opine And Gene did reply: Am 30.09.2014 23:51, schrieb Paul Davis: it isn't about being a professional or not. You can be a professional woodworker or a weekend amateur and use (functionally speaking) the same tools. The pro might also have a CNC system too, but that doesn't change things in any particular way. professional tools for woodworkers are extreme expensive ( I know it, because I'm), it's unlikely that a weekend amateur is willing to spend the money for them. (as well a parable) I'm one of the weekenders I guess, although my weekends can be anytime since I retired a decade change back up the log of life. But to facilitate some precision in my woodworking for mortise tenon joinery, I long ago made up an alu bar that I can bolt to the front of the head casting of my cnc'd (using LinuxCNC of course) micromill to mount a cheap die grinder far enough forward and offset to the left, and some jigs to mount the frame sticks in a vice-like setup, wrote a bit of gcode and carved both the tenon on the end of the stick, and its matching mortise. My last such project, for the next door neighbor, was a set of benches with seat backs that double as storage for toys etc for all ages, only had 172 such joints in it. And no, not a pro, but just making the best use of the tools I have. My interests are best described as eclectic I guess. Keeps me out of the bars, is I believe the usual excuse. :) Point being, use the tool you are familiar with. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Saturday 23 August 2014 08:11:01 Ralf Mardorf did opine And Gene did reply: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 07:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Actually you cant blame a preamp, if the microphone is missing a PAD switch. That is not something I have seen in a mike, but one really should carry an adapter to allow the mike to be fed into a line input. Sent out to record a session of the State University of Iowa Scottish Highlanders, which was scheduled to be on a 20 or so acre practice field, it started to rain so they had moved into a quonset hut along one edge of the property. I had the best tape deck in our inventory at Woodburn Sound Service in Iowa City, a Tandberg, which had slightly better specs than a Berlant we also had, and a legendarily good mike, an Altec M-21-b (hey this is 1957 folks that mike sold new for 600 1957 dollars!) when they fired up the 22 bagpipes inside that quonset hut, it was not only painful to my ears, I found I had to clip lead the mike into the line input, and was hitting +3 on the vu meter at a gain crank of about 1.25 on a 10 scale. But the recording itself turned out fairly decent and we sold about 65 copies on single sided acetate disks, cut on our own recording lathe. The M-21-b was a powered condenser mike, ran on 150 volts of bias, had a 6AT6 vacuum tube in it for a cathode follower output and could make around 140 volts p-p at its output into a 10k load. That was the mike they used to record the cannon shots, about 6 below the muzzle of the cannon, for the Mercury Records version of the Overture of 1812. With that sort of headroom in its output, it simply didn't clip. It was also rated 20HZ-17Khz flat. When Emory Cook went to Trinidad to record the then illegal steel drums, the recordings also contained the crickets, very faithfully reproduced on his 78 rpm lp's of the day. But my lifelong familiarity with tinnitus started in that quonset hut. And I haven't heard a cricket in 50 some years. OTOH, wearing out several high power rifle barrels at the target range over the last 50 years has also had its effect even if wearing 30+ db ear muffs to do it. Un-Funny thing about that is that when I walk into a store with an ultrasonic Doppler burglar alarm, I am in instant ear pain and can't get out of that store soon enough. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Half-OT: Fader mapping - was - Ardour MIDI tracer
On Saturday 23 August 2014 12:30:35 Ralf Mardorf did opine And Gene did reply: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 08:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 07:56 -0400, Grekim Jennings wrote: I have a Presonus Audiobox which can sound fine for an acoustic guitar, but throw a drum at it and it is automatically over full scale and unusable. Actually you cant blame a preamp, if the microphone is missing a PAD switch. A pad would solve the problem, but it's hardly a requirement of a good microphone and a purist would probably say it's a bad idea to add that to a mic. It's just not a professional preamp so I didn't have high expectations. Some high class microphones for good reasons add a PAD switch. Some of the best microphones can't accommodate all signal levels, IOW usually the microphone's amp can't handle the input from the capsule. If the microphone has got no PAD switch, then you need to back off the microphone from the drums or what ever sound source does produce the loudness. Indeed, if the microphones amp can handle the signal level, using it's PAD switch isn't the best idea, OTOH inaudible more noise and what ever else could be caused by the microphone's PAD switch is better than not being able to use the microphone, even if not the mic's amp should be the culprit. A mic-preamp should be able to handle the input from all microphones. On Sat, 2014-08-23 at 10:00 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: That is not something I have seen in a mike, but one really should carry an adapter to allow the mike to be fed into a line input. Neuman and Brauner microphones provide it. Not all microphones need it. But my lifelong familiarity with tinnitus started in that quonset hut. Audio engineers should live in cities. At the moment I'm able to hear my tinnitus, perhaps it's louder, because I've got a cold, but usually the noise from the city is that loud, that I can't hear my tinnitus. And I haven't heard a cricket in 50 some years. I'm still able to hear crickets. Perhaps your occupational disease is more serious. And has had 40 more years for the 120+ db noise abuse that causes it, to cause it. I do have some decades on you, Ralf. :) I can hear it right now, over the noise of several computer fans in this room. Anyway, many audio engineers suffer from tinnitus, but usually they don't suffer from being cloth-eared, because they did something stupid, as many other, even young people do. I'm not sure if the audio engineer's occupational disease tinnitus is caused by audio signals, tension (mental and/or of the musculature) could cause this too. Regards, Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Digital Effects
On Friday 22 August 2014 11:35:34 t...@trellis.ch did opine And Gene did reply: On Fri, August 22, 2014 16:35, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 04:12:12PM +0200, t...@trellis.ch wrote: is it correct that the following two scenarios give the exact same result? (digital audio signal) - (record) - (playback) - (apply fx) - (result) (digital audio signal) - (apply fx) - (record) - (playback) - (result) In both cases the (record),(playback) pair cancels out, so the result should be the same. Ok.. consequently if a mixing person says, i'm recording the bass with compression and eq, it just makes a better overall mix compared to applying after recording it can be looked at as rubbish (in the digital domain). Thanks, Tom And there is nothing that assaults ones ears more than someone who thinks he has to have a room thumping bass line, sets it so the axe and drums are about +20 db, then runs it all thru a fast compressor, ducking the rest of the music in time with the bass. I had the pleasure of mixing for KISS back in the later '70's, when they were fairly new, and had stopped into KIVA-TV on a steamy labor day and offered to do a few hours of music for Jerry's Kids as they weren't due for the next show, someplace in Texas till the next evening. I purposely set the axe and drums to be maybe 3 db above the rest of it. I taped about 5 minutes of it as it went to air and invited Gene to come listen on our cheap control room monitor when that set was over, which he did intently for about 4 minutes without a comment, but as the tune was winding down he said that was the best amateur recording he had heard so far. Our compressor at the time was one of the best, a CBS Labs Audimax. It kept us legal, but it took a well trained ear to detect that it was actually doing anything. I was so impressed by its general invisibility that every place I went for the next 30 years soon had one of those replacing whatever the latest sound wrecker was installed by some gung ho previous engineer. When I took the position at WDTV, I was in the GM's office 2 days later pleading for money to go buy a used one, the then brand new DBX-165 that had been installed 3 weeks earlier pumped and breathed so bad I compared it to the bedroom sounds from the night before. The girl that did all the CG work said it reminded her of why they spelled sex es ee ex, because no one could spell uh, uh UH, UH ,UGH,UGaaaw. Strange, the things an old fart remembers. :) Today the only other compressor I'd bolt into the audio rack would be an Orban. But weld a cover over the controls so the Program Director can't try to make it louder. He'll make it louder yes, and get you cited for overmod, and cost your station 5 points in the next ratings book because ears get tired of that crap quickly the dial gets turned to something less obnoxious, a death sentence in a multi-station market. BTDT. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [LAU] Ardour MIDI tracer
On Saturday 16 August 2014 06:49:59 Dennis Schulmeister did opine And Gene did reply: On Sat, 16 Aug 2014 11:32:06 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: there always is loud audible digital noise what ever slot I use. I experience/d the same with my TerraTec PCI cards on this machine and with my old mobo. All computers do that. Just put a DI-box with ground lift between your audio interface and the speakers and the noise is gone. Dennis And get someone electrocuted. That doesn't happen on my watch because they'll never get it plugged in, I would not allow it. There are several ways to fix a noise inducing ground loop, but a ground lift adapter is not one of them. Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Audio problem for numerical optimization
On Saturday 01 March 2014 07:27:53 Ralf Mardorf did opine: Hi Jeremia :) On Sat, 2014-03-01 at 07:49 +0100, user web210p1 wrote: FFT is used as an example in the lecture so it cannot be used, unless there is a significant additional computation involved. A less resource hungry JAMin would be nice, by keeping the sound quality it has got now. JAMin uses FFT, so it's a quite CPU and memory hungry beast. - http://jamin.sourceforge.net/en/reqs.html I have read, but not tested on big iron, that the butterfly transform gives compatible results with a lot less big iron to do it. I fooled with it 20 years ago on a big box amiga, it worked, but I couldn't compare to the same depth of FFT because I couldn't find free FFT that SAS C-6.58 would build. An example in a lecture isn't useful for any user. I don't know if significant additional computation is involved, but JAMin is important and much used software, not just a theoretical University kindergarten game, nobody ever would care about. Regards, Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene NOTICE: Will pay 100 USD for an HP-4815A defective but complete probe assembly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Releasing source code is not enough, I think...
On Tuesday 21 January 2014 08:15:53 John Rigg did opine: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 12:40:23PM +, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 05:55:04AM +, Filipe Coelho wrote: I think we should stop assuming releasing source code is enough. Enough for what ? Users who don't want to install from source want packages made for the package manager of their distro, which will take care of dependencies etc. You can't expcect a developer to provide such packages for each and every distro. I don't even provide them for the distro I use myself. I'm inclined to agree with Fons here. There seems to be a growing culture of expecting Windows-style hand-holding for free software. In the Windows (and Mac) world you pay money for this. I think it's unreasonable to expect the same level of support from unpaid developers. (If they have the time to do it that's great, but it shouldn't be taken for granted). John +1 John. Which is why, as I age, I try to always say thank you when I come hat in hand asking for help. At 79 still counting, I find myself doing more and more of that. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Required reading: http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/ Lady Nancy Astor: Winston, if you were my husband, I'd put poison in your coffee. Winston Churchill: Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Releasing source code is not enough, I think...
On Tuesday 21 January 2014 11:50:12 Filipe Coelho did opine: On 01/21/2014 04:40 PM, Philipp ـberbacher wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2014 05:55:04 + Filipe Coelho fal...@gmail.com wrote: Hi there everyone, specially developers. I think we should stop assuming releasing source code is enough. [GNU/] Linux is getting more user friendly, and most users are not able to compile software, plus some distributions make it specially hard (debian, ubuntu, fedora, opensuse) by having the libs installed but not the headers. Releasing software on windows or mac, even open-source, *always* comes in a binary, and most users come from there. Hi Filipe, I do think that releasing source code is enough. What is more important than binaries is to have a sane and properly configured build system. By that I mean standard tools like Makefiles, waf, scons, CMake or whatever is used nowadays with a sane standard configuration and the necessary switches to account for the differences between the distributions. I mean this in contrast to half-arsed and ad-hoc solutions. Just yesterday I spent the whole evening unsuccessfully trying to build a piece of software that uses a half-working CMake configuration combined with binary blobs of dependencies and a bunch of distro-specific shell scripts. The more I tried to fix it, the worse it got. Or take LuaAV, a piece of software I've tried to build twice during the last few years, unsuccessfully. They have a ubuntu-specific shell script to install the dependencies and a custom lua script to build. Stuff like that sucks, it sucks who just want to give it a shot, it sucks for packagers, and it sucks for people who want to contribute. A binary package would only help the first group, and that is assuming it works without problems on any system. This point is exactly why I think binaries are needed. IMO, no. Binaries ALWAYS turn out to have been built on some system needing some obscure library that isn't available on the system you are running. So, wanting to try it, one wastes several hours downloading and trying to build the missing dependencies until one finally realizes that on the distro you are using, its never going to happen. So please, give us a tarball of the source, with enough tools to build it from scratch so it does have a snowballs chance in hell of actually running on our system. If it won't build on a 4 year old ubuntu LTS using nothing but the build- essentials tools, the chances of its building anyplace but on your home machine aren't too measurable. Give us a source only tarball that builds there, and you will have around half the bases covered. OTOH, pcLOS is a dead stable system, but that is ONLY if all you want to do is web browse and email. Adding anything else is a very masochistic, and often fruitless effort because the only libraries supplied are those that Texstar himself uses. I don't think that 'magic binaries' that are easy to build and work everywhere are possible. If you are right and there are fewer technically inclined users and developers, we should conserve their time instead of wasting it on building distro specific packages. There are no such thing as magic binaries, nor have I stated I have them. But I think *trying* to provide binaries is better than none at all. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene Required reading: http://culturalslagheap.wordpress.com/2014/01/12/elemental/ When Marriage is Outlawed, Only Outlaws will have Inlaws. A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Aeolus
On Thursday 19 September 2013 11:10:31 IOhannes m zmoelnig did opine: On 2013-09-19 05:31, hermann meyer wrote: I'm sad to hear that. :-( Please don't let you lead from the things you didn't like, let you lead from the things you like instead. I guess then it's necessary to let you know that we use /as well/ a fork of your work, the zita-convolver library, in the guitarix project. But we leave your copyright untouched, and the fork will only come in use, when the user set a explicit compile flag. We didn't promote it, or force the fork. Ordinary your original code is in use. We do it to use ffmpeg instead fftw3 FFT, which perform better on ARM devices. but this sounds like the perfect opportunity to not do a simple fork, but to send patches to upstream so fons' aeolus could support both fftw3 and ffmpeg FFTs. it might be a win-win situation, where not only more than just the original aeolus users can profit from fons' work (because you use his code) but also more than just your users can profit from your work (because you changes are included into upstream aeolus). fmasdr IOhannes +1 (or more if I could stuff the box, but as a long time broadcast engineer I use a toothpick for a rowing oar in this crowd) because its an everybody wins situation then. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://gene.homelinux.net:6309/gene should be up! If you don't have time to do it right, where are you going to find the time to do it over? A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] zita1 RIP
On Thursday 05 September 2013 17:30:26 Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Thu, Sep 05, 2013 at 01:53:33PM -0700, J. Liles wrote: Another one bites the dust... Should've run Non on it instead. Seriously though, it's a shame. Fortunately, there are still quite a few motherboards out there with at least one PCI slot. I trust you had everything backed up! Almost... Lost two evenings of work on AP algorithms, but I have some 30 pages of scribbled notes about that, and the (Python) code itself wasn't that complicated, I'm rewriting it right now. Still, should learn to backup every day. Ciao, Let amanda do it in the middle of the night Fons. I've been using it, using virtual tapes on a terrabyte hard drive now, but with real tape since about 1999. Real tape is a maintenance headache, if you have smartctl watching the drives, they'll warn you well enough in advance that you can replace the drive ahead of a total failure. Made use of that once since I moved it to vtapes, about 7 years back. It works over the network, so my milling machine and lathe control boxes are backed up nightly too. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://gene.homelinux.net:6309/gene should be up! Ben, why didn't you tell me? -- Luke Skywalker A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [LAU] Linux Audio 2012: Is Linux Audio moving forward?
On Wednesday 10 October 2012 14:21:11 Patrick Shirkey did opine: On Wed, October 10, 2012 11:33 pm, Ben Loftis wrote: I'd pose a different question: Is OSX/Win Audio moving _backward_? If OSX continues to move towards iOS, and Win continues to move towards Metro, and Thunderbolt stalls, and screens get smaller, and expansion ports get scarcer, then Linux might become the de-facto pro multimedia platform simply because the other choices have become too dumbed down. Of course _most_ users will be happy with the ease and power of the tools that will be available on iOS/Metro. And _most_ users is where the money is, so Apple/Microsoft are chasing the right users. But there will be some serious users that need a powerful production system with big screens and big peripherals, and for these users, Linux might become the standard. Looking at the recent trade shows it seems that Linux/Unix is the already the hardware standard. I didn't spot hardware running on Apple or M$ OS's but plenty of Linux and Unix platforms. Unfortunately it costs $4000 for a booth here so I probably won't be able to do any promotions at the next event. Ouch. Suggestion Patrick, for the next show, hit up on one of the 'crowdfunding' sites. See if you can get the show money maybe enough for some big banners handouts. Hardware isn't going to happen unless it can be seen that there IS a market for it. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Flood can I write a unix-like kernel in perl? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] meterbridge 0.9.2 IEC-scale bug fix
On Wednesday 26 September 2012 12:58:35 Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:08:00PM +0100, Chris Cannam wrote: On 11 June 2012 18:47, Robin Gareus ro...@gareus.org wrote: Anyway, some of you who package or copied code from meterbridge may be interested in this as well. [...] // def = (db + 60.0f) * 0.5f + 5.0f; // 5.0 .. 10.0 // bug? v0.9.2 def = (db + 60.0f) * 0.5f + 2.5f; // 2.5 .. 7.5 // fix! You're quite right -- I just double-checked the standard and your fix is the right one. I have cargo-culted this code into a couple of other places myself without ever seeing this mistake, so I'll have to fix those. There is more to fix. The meterbridge website still claims that those meters 'almost' conform to some standards while in fact they even don't come close. According to the standard, a VU measures the average of the absolute value. For a steady input signal around 1 kHz, it must rise to 99% of the real value in 300ms and overshoot it by 1 to 1.5% before falling back to 100%. The one from meterbridge measures RMS and rises to the final value in around 5.3ms, that is more than 50 times too fast (at a sample rate of 48 kHz, and worse for higher sample rates). According to the standards, a PPM or IEC meter must have a controlled rise time of 5 or 10ms (depending on the standard). The one from meterbridge indicates peak sample values instead. Ciao, You are very correct, Fons. However, as a BC engineer, I have observed severe clipping of the waveforms because they exceeded the headroom of the DA's, which in this case was _+28 dbm, while the true vu meter sitting on that same line was reading -3dbm peaks. For average loudness readings the legal and pricey vu meter is fairly accurate, but it fails to detect the transients in todays music, or even in tv's spoken dialog during a soap, where the human ear as assaulted by the clipping cracklies the 70 year old analog std meter simply doesn't detect. To that end, the best production audio boards are also equipt with the much faster LED setups that latch such a peak condition excursion for at least 100 milliseconds to make it obvious a peak has been exceeded. To that end, the operators under my control have always been instructed to take it down a snudge until the overload LED at +16dbm only blinks at 5 second or more intervals. Listener fatigue can be very apparent in much of todays audio streams when the old 'vu' meter is peaking at _+4. And it shows in the ratings books when those instructions are being ignored, folks might be fans of the program but something they only 'feel' makes them channel hop looking for a more pleasant experience. When 1 point in the ratings is as important as it is to a facilities cash flow, we look for every conceivable advantage. Bad audio hurts. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Gary Hart: living proof that you *can* screw your brains out. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] meterbridge 0.9.2 IEC-scale bug fix
On Wednesday 26 September 2012 23:48:57 Fons Adriaensen did opine: [...] All very true. But that's no reason to claim that something that just looks a bit like a VU meter but behaves *very* differently actually is a VU meter. Same for the PPMs. No argument here. Most are better than nothing, but still lie like a rug under dynamic conditions. The code to this correctly has been available and GPL licensed for 4 or 5 years now (jmeters), so there's no excuse. I wasn't aware of that bit of code, thanks Fons. Now that I've been retired for over a decade, lots of that stuff goes right on by I'm sorry to say. What does it use for its A/D converter? Not all audio cards have sufficient depth to pull that off w/o the converter showing what a POC it is if the input level is off 3 to 6 db from ideal. My audigy2 value I would call just usable with its 24 bit range. Ciao, Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Now I lay me down to sleep I hear the sirens in the street All my dreams are made of chrome I have no way to get back home -- Tom Waits ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Leslie and convolution
On Thursday 26 July 2012 13:37:45 Julien Claassen did opine: Hello again! So the very short answer would be: It's not been done inany Linux software yet. Thanks for the explanations. I have thought a little too simple it seems and the outcome is what I originally expected. No go. :-) Kindly yours Julien Speaking as a bit of an engineer, to do a Leslie simulation would require that something like a bucket brigade be done with the digital data once decoded, then setup a pair of taps that would sample the digital from the brigade , advancing the signal in time for the speaker nearest the listener, and delaying the other half of the mix equally. Then combine it, and send it on down the path to the speakers, or perhaps to 2 separate speakers, but the 2 speaker approach would add its own artifacts. What you are then building is in essence similar to a comb filter with a variable clock speed. And this effect would only be valid for a stationary listener, because the bucket-brigade would have to get longer for the angle being synthesized according to where the listener is. The farther off the centerline, the longer the brigade, up to the time lag representing the maximum separation of the actual speakers on the Leslies rotating board. I'm sure some curious coder could work out the math, but the bucket-brigade would probably have to be done in hardware. Such IC's are (or were a decade ago) available. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Most of our lives are about proving something, either to ourselves or to someone else. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Leslie and convolution
On Thursday 26 July 2012 16:59:53 Gene Heskett did opine: On Thursday 26 July 2012 13:37:45 Julien Claassen did opine: Hello again! So the very short answer would be: It's not been done inany Linux software yet. Thanks for the explanations. I have thought a little too simple it seems and the outcome is what I originally expected. No go. :-) Kindly yours Julien Speaking as a bit of an engineer, to do a Leslie simulation would require that something like a bucket brigade be done with the digital data once decoded, then setup a pair of taps that would sample the digital from the brigade , advancing the signal in time for the speaker nearest the listener, and delaying the other half of the mix equally. Then combine it, and send it on down the path to the speakers, or perhaps to 2 separate speakers, but the 2 speaker approach would add its own artifacts. What you are then building is in essence similar to a comb filter with a variable clock speed. And this effect would only be valid for a stationary listener, because the bucket-brigade would have to get longer for the angle being synthesized according to where the listener is. The farther off the centerline, the longer the brigade, up to the time lag representing the maximum separation of the actual speakers on the Leslies rotating board. I'm sure some curious coder could work out the math, but the bucket-brigade would probably have to be done in hardware. Such IC's are (or were a decade ago) available. Cheers, Gene I forgot to mention that the tap location up and down the bucket brigade would have to be cycled from zero to the max separation at 2x the Leslies speaker rpms in a sin wave pattern. This could be done by keeping the sign of the sine and shifting the channels so they would crossover in time with the sin being driven with the Leslies normal rpm, the crossover of course occurring when the speakers are directly over each other. It might be a fun exercise to code if our modern cpus are fast enough to do the bucket brigade in memory at the sample frequency, for the whole brigade needed. A decent approximation might be done with 8 buckets, but I'd think 16 or 32 deep would be more accurate for the golden eared, which sadly no longer includes me. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! I'd love to go out with you, but I never go out on days that end in `Y.' ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Leslie and convolution
On Thursday 26 July 2012 17:09:03 Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 13:49 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: Such IC's are (or were a decade ago) available. Analog bucket brigade reminds me to ugly delay circuits, we build as children, with an entertaining noise performance :D. At all events, when building such a thing use a perfboard to ensure to get as much bad audio quality as possible. To be serious, there are some old professional delays based on analog bucket brigade, but using it today IMO isn't worth the hassle. Who said anything about analog?. Those were horrible. What I had in mind is a digital shift register, 16 or more bits wide. That wouldn't even multiply the quantization noise. Sure two channels of that might add, making it 3db worse, but when the two are summed again, that scales right back out I believe. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene is up! Practical people would be more practical if they would take a little more time for dreaming. -- J. P. McEvoy ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] SMPTE and jackd
On Friday, May 11, 2012 09:17:37 AM Jens M Andreasen did opine: On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 07:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: That's why Paul explained it (to us/me) and he's right. No, that's crap ... Many (which one?) is not equal to ALL. Just because some idiot hired gun working for a no-name-brand couldn't be bothered, does not mean the whole world is condemned to doing things the wrong way. Trash that machine or use it as a doorstop ... ;-) I think I'll have to agree with Jens here. If the hardware can't do it, put it someplace it can do something useful, door stop or window prop as needed. Since I'm involved with a totally different area that is also _extremely_ sensitive to real time, absolutely on time performance, metalworking machine tools that position the cutting tools with stepper motors, as a field we tend to gravitate to what works, with IRQ latency being nearly the sole judge of what works and what works poorly or not at all. The machine we've found to be the current best of the crop is one that is dirt cheap, I've bought 2 of them so far for about $250 USD ea. Complete shoeboxes, decent sized hard drives, 2Gb of memory, onboard video, even a good parport for our uses, a true set the bios, load up the software and go box. The magic ingredient is an Intel D525MW motherboard, carrying a passively cooled, 1.6 Ghz dual core Atom cpu. We disable hyperthreading as its a time waster of legendary proportions, boot an RTAI enabled kernel, using the isolcpus=1 command, so the non-real time stuff runs on core0, and the real time on core1. Typical latency test figures are in the 2.5 u-s range and we run the base-thread at 25 u-s between loops, or 40 kilohertz. Using motor drivers that microstep the motors by doing a /4 or /8, even a /16, the motors can be turned quite a few hundred rpms. These motors need a steady heartbeat to do that, and a poor machine will limit motor speeds by missing a step, causing the motor to slow or even stop and when this poor machine finally does get around to issuing more steps, the motor is slowed or stopped and cannot accelerate back to full speed so it loses a step and stalls. A hung motor and likely a wrecked part because the motor on a different axis didn't stop. I don't see why the same, absolutely on time criteria for good performance wouldn't apply to the audio processing and scheduling needed to perform fantastically well for audio. And its not a one trick pony either, I can carve steel on my milling machine while editing the next bit of code in another window, with an IRC client logged into 4 channels, plus a copy of firefox running so I can check out links that might be posted on one of the irc channels, and do it without bothering the milling machines progress. So I have to agree with Jens, if the hardware cannot or won't do it, find hardware that will and use that one for something else or recycle it. And, when you do find something that Just Works(TM) for your use like the Intel D525MW board kits do for us, be sure and publish it here as that will drive sales for the unit, telling the maker he has done something right because there has been a visible uptick in sales. Basically if you want good hardware that does work, tell the world what does, and does not, work. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this: that you are dreadfully like other people. -- James Russell Lowell, My Study Windows ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ot] rme fireface: weird balanced output measurements
On Sunday, February 19, 2012 10:17:31 PM Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 08:28:03AM -0500, gene heskett wrote: Something I didn't consider in my first generation design since I was still learning myself, which although it had an output impedance at the TLO84 pin of under an ohm, then used 300 ohm per leg build outs. The next generation card, the main design change was to change that 300 ohm to 30 ohms. This then worked much better out in the newsroom, but was even more susceptible to the emp spikes the longer runs picked up. Since the card had to fit the cage, it never did grow the schotkey power diodes to the supply rails that would have absorbed those spikes, no room left on the the card for diodes that at the time (1984-85) were about 1/2 long 1/4 in diameter. It would have taken 12 of them to protect the inputs as well as the outputs. These cards all had their own rail regulators (78-7915's) for +-15 volts as the cage supply was about 22 volts +-, filtered some but not regulated, good for about 10 amps a rail. 22 cards with 44 pin edge connectors in one 3 space high rack, it did have noticeable but tolerable heat output. The only place with enough farads available to dump the emp was the main rails, and a quick test of that idea using a bench supply showed that wasn't a cure as the output stage of the TLO84 was still destroyed when the output was pulled above or below the cards internal +-15 volts by about 2 volts, long before the schotkeys to the +-22 volt rail would turn on. Should I feel sorry for all those poor TL084s that died while being forced to work well above their physical limits, abused and expendible like Egyptian slaves building the pyramids ? :-):-) Actually, driving a 600 ohm load on the bench, the heat rise of the chip doing the output I was monitoring, was only barely detectable. Failures, when there were failures, were usually in tensies or so, in the wake of a passing thunderstorm that nailed the STL tower. So now the problem is levels, digital doesn't come with a knob. The std, if there even is one, is ignored, which explains the commercials that are 20db louder than the program, nobody cares and we catch hell from the listeners. You mean there's *no* volume control between whatever is used to play commercials and the transmitter feed ? No continuity A/V mixer at all ? Ciao, Not in normal automation programming, its pretty much a hard digital switch. If we start fooling with it, lip sync problems rear up and byte us on the butt. The board with actual gain controls is only used during live newscasts, and in pre-production making of the files used in those newscasts (used to be tapes), there the gain is controlled usually by the reporter as he does the editing to get 5 minutes worth of the file from the camera's hard drive, down into a minute thirty or so package that tells the story as compactly as possible without leaving out any gory details unless they really are gory and next of kin hasn't been notified yet. Really overpowering to the point of digital clipping or even phase reversals, generally get flagged by the on duty switcher, and John will yell at the src the next day to make them redo the production with a normal audio level. We do probably 55% of the production in this market, the other guys do about 25-30%, leaving the national agencies doing the remaining stuff, and they are the worst offenders by far. It seems to me, that a scan of the file done ahead of time, or if its really fresh, the first time it airs, and using that average data to develop an average volume level, then run the audio thru a D/A which then feeds a multiplying A/D running at the same clock speed, with the multiplier being that whole program average loudness, should be able to do that fast enough that lip sync isn't a problem. Once determined, that digital gain value should somehow be tied to that file in such a way that it is applied before the first frame of video on subsequent playbacks. The IT production managers are actively looking for something that would help, but so far, their searches have only managed to come up with stuff similar to the old analog frame synchronizers, at 5 digit and up prices. The system integration to make it work is, as I see it, a bigger problem than the hardware, which it seems to me could be thrown together for under a 200 bill a channel, and all four of the channels we would need could possibly be in one box. Or we could go 8 channels be playing one file that needs massaged thru a 'preview' circuit to derive the gain that spot/program needs the next time it plays for real. Hardware, to me, seems relatively simple, but of course the devil that will raid the fridge and eat your lunch, is in the details. Even a digital gain control developing the A/D multiplier voltage would seem to me, to be something we ought to be able to buy
Re: [LAD] [ot] rme fireface: weird balanced output measurements
On Saturday, February 18, 2012 07:02:22 AM Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 07:23:12PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: The concept of cable impedance makes sense only if the lenght becomes a non-trivial fraction of wavelength. For audio that means that for anything shorter than a few hundred meters it's only capacitance that matters. But at a 60 ohm impedance, that capacitance is considerable. I could put 20 volts P-P into a cable headed for our news dept, at say 15 kilohertz, and 200' away, I could only see 6 or 7 volts. Sure, no discussion about that. But at that lenght and frequency, this is not due to the cable's characteristic impedance but only the result of the line amp's output impedance (600 ohm) and the the cable capacitance forming a simple RC lowpass circuit. The C in this case is proportional to length, while a cable's characteristic impedance is not. Something I didn't consider in my first generation design since I was still learning myself, which although it had an output impedance at the TLO84 pin of under an ohm, then used 300 ohm per leg build outs. The next generation card, the main design change was to change that 300 ohm to 30 ohms. This then worked much better out in the newsroom, but was even more susceptible to the emp spikes the longer runs picked up. Since the card had to fit the cage, it never did grow the schotkey power diodes to the supply rails that would have absorbed those spikes, no room left on the the card for diodes that at the time (1984-85) were about 1/2 long 1/4 in diameter. It would have taken 12 of them to protect the inputs as well as the outputs. These cards all had their own rail regulators (78-7915's) for +-15 volts as the cage supply was about 22 volts +-, filtered some but not regulated, good for about 10 amps a rail. 22 cards with 44 pin edge connectors in one 3 space high rack, it did have noticeable but tolerable heat output. The only place with enough farads available to dump the emp was the main rails, and a quick test of that idea using a bench supply showed that wasn't a cure as the output stage of the TLO84 was still destroyed when the output was pulled above or below the cards internal +-15 volts by about 2 volts, long before the schotkeys to the +-22 volt rail would turn on. Since they were very transparent distortion measurements were difficult because it was well under .01% at 28v p-p output, and even with the emp problems, were 10x as dependable as another rack of Ramco DA's we paid 5 grand for before I came in the door, I made sure we had sticks of the chips, and bags of the capacitors on hand in case mother nature heard somebody call that stuff butter, and ran with it. At least the TLO84's were socketed, those quad 741's (4432's?) in the Ramco weren't. Those eventually were pulled out, they weren't as good sounding by a long ways. Those 4432's were so slew rated they weren't really any good above about a volt p-p out. Pure crap to my ears. With that slew rate clipping, the intermod turned your teeth on edge worse that fingernails on a slate blackboard. Downright fugly was how I described it at the time. At audio freqencies the cable's series resistance dominates the impedance of its inductance, which means that the classic equation for impedance, sqrt(L/C) is no longer valid. It still has an impedance which turns out to be something like sqrt (R/wC). In theory you could try and match that at both ends but since it depends on frequency that would be very complicated. Sounds like. In those cases I always figured the cable ohmage if otherwise impedance matched at the src, was a std factor of the load currents flowing, and with a nominally 10k load on the far end, a generally ignorable. Effectively un-terminated, it of course dependent on the src terms to absorb any 'vswr'. In any event, by then I had managed to obtain a function generator, and a 10 to 60 khz sweep actually looked pretty good at the far end, easily within about 5% of flat on the scope. Technically incorrect?, yes. Was better by magnitudes than what was there when I walked in the door?, hell yes. The practical solution for long lines, and what Ma Bell does, is to increase the cable's apparent inductance by inserting series inductors at regular intervals. These combine with the cable's capacitance to produce a purely resistive impedance even at audio frequencies. The distance between the inductors determines the bandwidth. Lines used for full bandwidth audio (e.g. broadcasting) require more inductors per unit lenght. Which also had the effect of making a long 15 kilohertz rated line into one of the best 'brick wall' filters you've ever measured. Maybe a db down at 15 khz when they were done, a twenty mile circuit was down 90 db by 17 khz. And they never did get the S/SN below 48 db, so we eventually bought a subcarrier radio, which made 75db rather nicely
Re: [LAD] [ot] rme fireface: weird balanced output measurements
On Saturday, February 18, 2012 08:29:11 AM Jörn Nettingsmeier did opine: fons, gene, thanks for your insights, particularly about the problems of AC rms meters at audio frequencies - i was totally ignorant of this, and i'd have shot myself in the foot with this eventually. fons, after i read your remark i asked around, and yes, the ff800 does indeed use servo-driven outputs, so the voltage difference is intentional and no cause for concern. i'll definitely investigate the level differences between channels, but as you said, i'd better do that with a sound card rather than a meter. gene, would love to follow your scope advice (particularly for the beneficial effects on gonads), Chuckle. Its caught me by surprise a couple of times. I've had a scope probe in one hand since around 1950. Its a very informative tool. and i'm looking out for one, but i'm not really prepared to pay much. in any case, it's way sexier than one of those usb sampling gadgets sold for a scope these days... maybe i'll find a nice, simple one in a dumpster somewhere. Some of those usb gizmo's come with some truly useful software. If it can digitize to 16 bits (most of that stuff is only 8 bits), then the possibilities of doing some truly useful investigations under steady state signal excitation becomes available. Sadly, one of those that does 8 bits only, and claims to be able to an FTT, just doesn't have the bit depth to make that FFT's output of more than casual interest. My own scope, a Hitachi V1065, 100 mhz dual trace, is somewhat computerized, enough that it can measure p-p voltages, or time from point a to point b, and conversely a good estimate of the frequency by taking the reciprocal. Also a dual time base with what seems to be excellent time base stabilty. Still usable, despite its 100 mhz rating, at 185 mhz although not to claim it is still calibrated at nearly an octave above its ratings, I can at least chase through a ch 8 transmitters rf chain with it. Fairly light, I paid $1200 for it used when it was till available new for around 2G's about 21 years ago. I should think that a clone of it could be had from fleabay for 250-500 today. Expect to buy probes, I get decent ones rated for 200 mhz at a decent price from MPJones @ $40/copy. Personal opinion: Stay away from the low end stuff from even the major makers, its bound to be out of calibration AND non-repairable if its more than 10 years old. The majors simply do not support older stuff. Generally, Sencor does but it will spend the holidays in Sioux Falls too, HP will till they are out of custom parts. The only thing my old Hitachi has needed over the years was opened up and all the assembly screws snugged up and one missing one replaced, too many miles on too many vibrating airplanes in its history. Otherwise, at 20 some years, the tube is still factory bright and it Just Works(TM). The switches need some exercise occasionally but that's expected. nice to get you two guys into another discussion about signal transmission - very instructive! I enjoy discussing things with Fons, I think in some sense we compliment each other, filling in the gaps so to speak. He has the theory better than I, and likely has at least 8 years more schooling than I, where I've been in the ditches making it work for almost 65 years. I have an 8th grade education, a GED, am a C.E.T., and have had what used to be a 1st phone for 50 years. But the commish threw that under the buss 30 years, so its not worth a lot in bragging rights today. best, jِrn btw: yes, the folkwang address seems to have expired at last. the la* lists were the last things i used it for, and i have now resubscribed from my own mail domain. so please ditch that old one from your address books if you want to get in touch off-list. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ot] rme fireface: weird balanced output measurements
On Friday, February 17, 2012 11:06:47 AM Jörn Nettingsmeier did opine: hi everyone! Greetings from your lurking retired broadcast engineer CET. I won't address the RME as I have no experience with it, what I will say is more akin to debunking and good practice stuff. yesterday, i visited my friends' new studio, to help them shake out some bugs in the patch and fix a monitor problem. there i came across a really weird issue with the line outputs on two rme fireface 800s: we put a test tone out in logic (yeah, they run a mac shop), and i went to measure the outputs. in addition to really high fluctuations from one output to the next (with identical digital input signals), i measured huge differences in voltage on the hot and cold side, such as hot to ground: 2.00 V cold to ground: 1.82 V First of several questions: Meter set for AC or DC? Many, but not all, meters will read a DC offset as AC on the AC ranges. Sort of hard to read the AC when its also reading .2 volts DC and adding (or subtracting) it to the AC reading. despite the fluctuations across several channels, this trend was pretty constant. so i figured, maybe this box has a problem with its negative voltage rail. they had another ff 800 in there, which we measured for comparison. same issue. i figured, maybe apple wrote an oscillator with a dc offset, so we applied a known-good test tone .wav file. same result. is my thinking flawed, or are rme really delivering such crappy output stages on such a pricey box? my multimeter is not a calibrated one, but it's in the 100+€ range, and i used AC true rms measurement mode. There are quite a few meters out there that claim true RMS, but few (if any in the price range of a hand held) are capable of that on a broadband audio basis, usually tweaked to be accurate within the boxes side panel claims ONLY at the line frequency of the local power, 50 or 60 hz. The ONLY way to measure true RMS power over wide frequency ranges is with a bolometer, a teeny little resistor capable of about 10 milliwatts of power absorption whose temperature rise is how the power is measured. Or by very accurate thermometers, one at the input of a resistors cooling flow, and one after the coolant has passed the resistor and been heated by that power. There are some formulas about that will give 2% accuracy if the coolant is water and the flow rate is known to an equal accuracy. Either of those methods costs 500-5000 USD to accomplish. DVM's that claim true RMS use either a digital sample store at many times the expected frequency, then do the math to discover the RMS, or a semiconductor based log converter. The digital method obviously doesn't fit in the price range or battery budget of a hand held. The alternative is a quite fussy semiconductor log converter, which deals in currents so low near the bottom of the scale range that it is severely speed limited, often to less than the local line powers frequency. Curious, playing with one of mine I paid about $125 for, I fed it from an audio oscillator whose output amplitude was monitored with a 100 mhz o- scope. It was passably accurate at my local power frequency of 60 hz, read about 25% high at 30 hz, read about 5% of what it should at 400 hz input, and wasn't able to see a 4000 hz signal at all! Essentially, such a meter is worthless at common audio frequencies. Its a sales gimmick that doubles the price of the DVM with zero real benefits. Use an o-scope, it, unless you need distortion measurements, is far more informative than the meter, plus if you do see distortion on the scope screen, the format is often very explicit as to the cause when one is familiar with the scope enough to recognize the distortion. i understand my meter has a very high input impedance, and that's what line level connections should have, right? operating more or less open-loop, without significant currents flowing. or should i use a shunt resistor and measure across that? if so, what value is recommended? That is another can of worms entirely. The ideal is of course to design for an arbitrary impedance, often in the past, 600 ohms, an unfortunate artifact inherited from Ma Bell about 80 or 90 years ago. Works for local runs of a few feet, but fails miserably on long runs. Why? The common two wire foil shielded audio cable, used in broadcast and studio facilities in miles per studio quantities, actually has an impedance in the 60 ohm area! Feed it with a 600 ohm source and 300 feet of cable later its rolled off like a Ma Bell telephone circuit. Your audio DA's, to drive that, need to source terminate at 30 ohms per wire, from a very low impedance amplifier. These can get hot use lots of power to do a +20 dbm signal without clipping, and maintaining the usual 16 db of headroom established by the normal VU meter reading zero db at +4 dbm output. Its also a good idea to load the far end with this same
Re: [LAD] [ot] rme fireface: weird balanced output measurements
On Friday, February 17, 2012 07:07:39 PM Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:32:01PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: [bolometers] Either of those methods costs 500-5000 USD to accomplish. The average house garden multimeter is indeed completely useless for measuring anything audio. OTOH * There are quite good handheld audio RMS meters which don't cost a fortune (but they are in the higher price range). They use analog integrated circuits which can be quite accurate - at least for normal audio use. They are not laboratory standards of course. * Any pro-quality audio card, once calibrated against a known signal and combined with some simple software will make a near-perfect RMS meter *for the audio band* and as long as you don't drive it into clipping. [cable impedance] Why? The common two wire foil shielded audio cable, used in broadcast and studio facilities in miles per studio quantities, actually has an impedance in the 60 ohm area! Feed it with a 600 ohm source and 300 feet of cable later its rolled off like a Ma Bell telephone circuit. Your audio DA's, to drive that, need to source terminate at 30 ohms per wire, from a very low impedance amplifier. The concept of cable impedance makes sense only if the lenght becomes a non-trivial fraction of wavelength. For audio that means that for anything shorter than a few hundred meters it's only capacitance that matters. But at a 60 ohm impedance, that capacitance is considerable. I could put 20 volts P-P into a cable headed for our news dept, at say 15 kilohertz, and 200' away, I could only see 6 or 7 volts. And yes you need hefty line drivers and low output impedance to push 20 kHz, +20 dBu on a long line. Which is one of the reasons why real pro quality analog audio remains expensive. And often sensitive to both crossover distortions and slew rate limits, one of the reasons I built a DA card years ago, 2 channel in 4 out each channel, and used TLO84's for all of it. I was replacing a rig that had heat sinked TO-5 bugs in it that had both crossover and slew rate limits much worse than the near gain of 1 op amps had at half the output P-P. Those were also a home brewed copy of something one of my employees made before I came in the door in '84, and in my attempts to build a working television station, that problem finally filtered itself to the top of the must do list about a year later. The biggest problem with the TLO84's was that those long cable runs made excellent antennas for EMP's, which caused then to self destruct in bags full every time the STL tower, a 255' pyrod self supported tower about 20 feet outside the back door, got tapped by a wandering lightning strike, so I had to keep TLO84's around in 3 stick quantities, but TLO84's are dirt cheap. The lightning strike was a many times annually event when you have 255' of steel sticking up. Ciao, Likewise Fons, have a good evening. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene lisp, v.: To call a spade a thpade. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] More midi related questions
On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 06:44:58 AM Clemens Ladisch did opine: gene heskett wrote: # aplaymidi -l PortClient name Port name 14:0Midi Through Midi Through Port-0 16:0SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 (UART) 16:32 SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 #2 17:0Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 0 17:1Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 1 17:2Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 2 17:3Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 3 Can I make the inference that a .mid file sent to 14:0 should find its way to one of the 17:n ports? Only if you have connected the output of 14:0 to one of the 17:n ports. And how is this done? Java, by its scanning methods, finds a huge list of ports, but only the semi-broken, internal to java, synth actually makes a noise. But does it find those sequencer ports? This java .jar logs to the screen that launched it, an error line for every note in a file sent, except when the internal java synth is used. Example: 13 Dec 2011 17:28:25 WARN [dwproto-0-9 ] lhandler.DWProtocolHandler: UNKNOWN OPCODE: 252 The opcode changes but nothing else. If I switch to amidi -l, the list is a bit shorter: Dir DeviceName IO hw:0,0Audigy MPU-401 (UART) IO hw:0,1Audigy MPU-401 #2 IO hw:0,2Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) IO hw:0,3Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) but sending a midi file to the latter pair, while taking the normal play time for the file, is also silent. How are you trying to send a midi file to a raw MIDI port? For testing my hardware, aplaymidi -p client:port# song.mid where aplaymidi -p17:0 file.mid works, and aplaymidi -p14:0 file.mid goes through the motions for the 29 second length of the file.mid, but makes no sound. amidi, otoh, returns (hw0:0) type answers and should be able to play a file with the '-s song.mid' when the -p is one of root@coyote Download]# amidi -l Dir DeviceName IO hw:0,0Audigy MPU-401 (UART) IO hw:0,1Audigy MPU-401 #2 IO hw:0,2Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) IO hw:0,3Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) The last 2 above. However, I have no .syx files, whatever they are, to test with. Only .mid, some of which are 20+ years old. They originate on a 'legacy' computer (a TRS-80 Color Computer 3 running Ultimuse3 as .ume files, but which that machine can convert to .mid by telling it to use a file as the output device rather than its own hardware. The output device this old machine's sw originally used was a bitbanger port running at midi's 31250 baud speed, but the cpu in that machine has been changed to a slightly faster Hitachi HD63C09EP, so that port now runs at about 37,000 baud and none of my keyboards recognize the data. So we now have a java app that runs on a 'server' box like this linux box, which talks to this legacy machine at 115,000 baud using that bitbanger port, which in turn allows the old machine to even access .dsk disk image files as virtual disk drives by using the URL of the image, or service a telnet client with up to 15 sessions, but one of those virtual paths is accessed on the CoCo as /MIDI, with the .jar code then sending that .mid style data someplace on this machine that knows what to do with midi data when it comes up the cable. The .jar has an internal synth too, and can feed its output to the sound card, but there are huge errors in the sound because the 20 year old stuff is not GM. The melody line is a screaming picolo being blown with a 175 psi air nozzle, very unpleasant. The .jar reports a very lengthy list, 69 total, of potential places it can send this rawmidi data, one of which I believe is equ to 14:0 above, listed as choice #68 realtime synth in its pulldown, and which java somehow expands most of into the hw0:0 through hw0:3 style. But in testing, only the internal java synth makes noise, and I believe the error is the lack of coupling between the 14:0 port shown above, and one of the 4 ports at 17:0 through 17:3, none of which show in an ls -l /dev. But: [root@coyote johnny_cash]# ls -l /dev|grep 14, crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 14 Nov 17 21:02 admmidi crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 12 Nov 17 21:02 adsp crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 13 Nov 17 21:02 amidi crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 4 Nov 17 21:02 audio crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 9 Nov 17 21:02 dmmidi crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 3 Nov 17 21:02 dsp crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 2 Nov 17 21:02 midi crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 0 Nov 17 21:02 mixer crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 1 Nov 17 21:02 sequencer crw-rw+ 1 root audio14, 8 Nov 17 21:02 sequencer2 So there seems to be a missing link, but where? /rant on because its extremely frustrating: IMO, linux has a huge disconnect in its handling of devices, some of which
Re: [LAD] More midi related questions
On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 10:32:48 AM Paul Davis did opine: On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:18 AM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: The .jar reports a very lengthy list, 69 total, of potential places it can send this rawmidi data, one of which I believe is equ to 14:0 above, listed as choice #68 realtime synth in its pulldown, and which java somehow expands most of into the hw0:0 through hw0:3 style. This is a mistake on the part of Java or the Java app you are using, which is hardly suprising since I've never met a Java app that did audio/MIDI and played by the rules of the platform it was on. it should be using sequencer ports and showing only the client name almost all the time. Rotsa ruck with that :) Its a long list, but this is what that .jar spits out: = DriveWire MIDI status: Devices: [0] Audigy2 [hw:0,0] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], Audigy MPU-401 (UART), Audigy MPU-401 (UART), ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [1] Audigy2 [hw:0,1] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], Audigy MPU-401 #2, Audigy MPU-401 #2, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [2] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [3] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [4] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [5] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [6] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [7] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [8] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [9] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [10] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [11] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [12] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [13] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [14] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [15] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [16] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [17] Audigy2 [hw:0,2] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [18] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [19] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [20] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [21] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [22] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [23] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [24] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [25] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [26] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [27] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [28] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400], VirMidi, Emu10k1 Synth MIDI, ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org) 1.0.23 [29] Audigy2 [hw:0,3] (MidiInDevice) SB Audigy 2
Re: [LAD] More midi related questions
On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 12:28:24 PM Paul Davis did opine: On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 10:58 AM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: a reboot, shows: [gene@coyote ~]$ ls -l /dev/snd/ [ ... ] crw-rw+ 1 root audio 116, 4 Dec 14 08:40 midiC0D0 crw-rw+ 1 root audio 116, 3 Dec 14 08:40 midiC0D1 crw-rw+ 1 root audio 116, 13 Dec 14 08:41 midiC0D2 crw-rw+ 1 root audio 116, 14 Dec 14 08:41 midiC0D3 These are the only MIDI raw ports you have. So, to which of these should java be sending the actual bytes exactly as they would go down the midi cable to a midi capable keyboard? I have no idea because precisely what devices 0 through 3 are is entirely device specific. Here is my system: crw-rw+ 1 root audio 116, 10 Nov 17 12:15 /dev/snd/midiC1D0 crw-rw+ 1 root audio 116, 9 Nov 17 12:15 /dev/snd/midiC1D1 the first one is the MIDI labelled MIDI 1 on my Digiface I/O box, the second one is the one labelled MIDI 0 on the same box. But those are the cable jacks, correct? Not a hardware synth input such as this Audigy2 has once the proper drivers have been modprobe'd in and the soundfont loaded to the card by awsfxload. So I should be using in my case, the midiC0D2 and midiC0D3 devices from the list above? That of course is assuming (oh oh that word again) the first 2 are the non-existent 5 pin din midi jacks... In your case, you will likely get a bit more insight by using: These were in the last post IIRC. aplaymidi -l PortClient name Port name 14:0Midi Through Midi Through Port-0 16:0SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 (UART) -your digiface jack 0? 16:32 SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 #2 -your digiface jack 1? 17:0Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 0 17:1Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 1 17:2Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 2 17:3Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 3 and amidi -l Dir DeviceName IO hw:0,0Audigy MPU-401 (UART) IO hw:0,1Audigy MPU-401 #2 IO hw:0,2Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) IO hw:0,3Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) to see what names ALSA has managed to dig up and associate with each port. the first command gives an ALSA sequencer view of things; the second gives the raw MIDI view of things. And, is there a utility available that I can use to test send a file to one of those midiC0Dn devices? My tests with cat just resulted in a powerdown reboot to recover. amidi will send stuff to a raw port. But refuses to move a .mid file, telling me to use aplaymidi instead. Now, I know that aplaymidi -p17:0 smas6984.mid aplaymidi -p17:1 smas6984.mid aplaymidi -p17:2 smas6984.mid aplaymidi -p17:3 smas6984.mid all work. Flawlessly. In fact I just used it to shut off a stuck note on, it turns out that from that loong list of devices that java found, #36 and #52 actually do work, not at all well but they do make noise, notes are off key, note off's are skipped, that sort of thing. And compared to the aplaymidi sounds, the volume is down about 20db. aplaymidi of course refuses to use the -phw0:2 style of finding its output path, no help at all. Now I think we need to see where the rawmidi data might be getting scrambled. amidi says it has a dump option so I'll see if I can get usable data from that. But no file to feed it exists on this box. In the meantime, I had the old machine do a .mid output file from one of the songs in its .ume format, then shipped the file to this machine and played it. The only errors in that playback are instrument translation errors because general midi hadn't arrived in any great force that far back up the log, the bass pickers part came out as the 16 and 32 foot pedals on a pipe organ for example. Volume level was normal too. So that tells me the data scrambling is someplace in java if my normal 2+2=4 logic is still working. We'll hope anyway. ;-) Thanks a bunch, Paul. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Possessions increase to fill the space available for their storage. -- Ryan ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] More midi related questions
On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 02:03:14 PM Clemens Ladisch did opine: gene heskett wrote: And, is there a utility available that I can use to test send a file to one of those midiC0Dn devices? Raw MIDI devices require raw data; they're useful only for .syx files where you don't care about timing. Try this: (echo -ne '\x90\x3c\x7f'; sleep 0.5; echo -ne '\x3c\x00') /dev/snd/midiC0D2 Worked, gave a single half second tone. To get a sequencer port that your stupid Java runtime can access, load the snd-virmidi module. Tis loaded already: [gene@coyote midi]$ lsmod|grep snd_seq_virmidi snd_seq_virmidi 3864 1 snd_emux_synth snd_rawmidi15287 4 snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emu10k1 snd_seq_midi_event 4648 3 snd_seq_midi,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_oss snd_seq42136 9 snd_seq_midi,snd_emux_synth,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_seq_midi_emul,snd_seq_dummy,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq_midi_event snd43189 19 snd_emux_synth,snd_seq_virmidi,snd_emu10k1,snd_rawmidi,snd_ac97_codec,snd_hwdep,snd_seq_oss,snd_seq,snd_seq_device,snd_pcm_oss,snd_pcm,snd_timer,snd_mixer_oss To test it, run aseqdump -p Virtual Raw MIDI:0 to show what gets sent to the corresponding raw MIDI port. [gene@coyote midi]$ aseqdump -p Virtual Raw MIDI:0 Invalid port Virtual Raw MIDI:0 - No such file or directory Repeat for :1, :2, :3 To actually use it, connect it to a synthesizer port: aconnect Virtual Raw MIDI:0 Emu10k1:0 Since I got the above error(s) I looked it up and did this: aconnect -i client 0: 'System' [type=kernel] 0 'Timer ' 1 'Announce' client 14: 'Midi Through' [type=kernel] 0 'Midi Through Port-0' client 16: 'SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400]' [type=kernel] 0 'Audigy MPU-401 (UART)' 32 'Audigy MPU-401 #2' Which I think is telling me there is no thru port to the synth? aconnect -o client 14: 'Midi Through' [type=kernel] 0 'Midi Through Port-0' client 16: 'SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400]' [type=kernel] 0 'Audigy MPU-401 (UART)' 32 'Audigy MPU-401 #2' client 17: 'Emu10k1 WaveTable' [type=kernel] 0 'Emu10k1 Port 0 ' 1 'Emu10k1 Port 1 ' 2 'Emu10k1 Port 2 ' 3 'Emu10k1 Port 3 ' So I think I need something else yet? Regards, Clemens Thanks Clemens, between you and Paul, I may actually be learning something. :) Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Law stands mute in the midst of arms. -- Marcus Tullius Cicero ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] More midi related questions
On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 06:30:01 PM Clemens Ladisch did opine: gene heskett wrote: On Wednesday, December 14, 2011 02:03:14 PM Clemens Ladisch did opine: ... load the snd-virmidi module. Tis loaded already: $ lsmod|grep snd_seq_virmidi No, the snd-virmidi module is not loaded. Oh, oh. snd_virmidi is not the same as snd_seq_virmidi! My mistake, and looky here: aplaymidi -l PortClient name Port name 14:0Midi Through Midi Through Port-0 16:0SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 (UART) 16:32 SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 #2 17:0Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 0 17:1Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 1 17:2Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 2 17:3Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 3 20:0Virtual Raw MIDI 1-0 VirMIDI 1-0 (4 brand new ports!) 21:0Virtual Raw MIDI 1-1 VirMIDI 1-1 22:0Virtual Raw MIDI 1-2 VirMIDI 1-2 23:0Virtual Raw MIDI 1-3 VirMIDI 1-3 and this set of tomato cans a long string is now playing into my sound card direct from UBox3 running on the coco in the basement, no java synth involved. But the menu now has 64 more entries, a lot of scrolling to get to the right one. Its #100 on the list. :) And other than instrument miss-matches, very sweet. Now, go put the newer .jar in restart everything. Done. Yup, 3.99.9 is messing it up, playing the wrong notes etc but not as bad as before when I was using it. But after the first song in a 4 song loop, all I am hearing is instrument miss-match, and its playing it ok on the 2nd pass thru the first song. Playing the melody of A whole new world, from Aladdin using cowbells for the melody line is a new listening experience! I'll go put one more modprobe statement in my /etc/rc.d/rc.local file and call this usable until I learn how to translate instruments in umuse3. Thank you both for your patience! Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene An infallible method of conciliating a tiger is to allow oneself to be devoured. -- Konrad Adenauer ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Question re midi
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 03:10:42 AM Ralf Madorf did opine: -Original Message- From: linux-audio-dev-boun...@lists.linuxaudio.org on behalf of gene heskett Sent: Tue 12/13/2011 06:59 A little, but while it claims 210, the midi spec only allows 127. +++ Hi Gene :) I own a CASIO CT-470. It's sending SysEx to switch sound banks. Aaron already has a CT-460 translation table, but I've CC'd him on this in case its different. Thank you Ralf. Sound Number / Prog Change 00. 10. 0 09. 19. 9 00.0 10.0 10 00.9 10.9 19 09.9 19.9 109 HEX for the SysEx F0 44 03 00 7N 51 DD F7 N is Channel (for my Casio 0, 1, 2 and 3 only) DD 20 Bank Select on, DD 21 Bank Select off Send data to a MIDI monitor and watch what happens if your Casio is sending program changes. Not quite that simple, the Audigy 2 Value I have has an excellent GM synth in it, but no game port unless that is whats available on a 50 mill spacing inline connector on the top edge of the card. But I have never found a mail order or net peddler that lists the breakout bracket that gives me the actual midi ports discussed in the cards docs. I'm out of slots on this mobo, so any midi stuff I add is likely going to be translated usb and there goes the latency in a little red wagon. Not to mention $10/port, 4 port min. I probably could convince the java coder I have CC'd this to, (Aaron Wolfe) that is doing drivewire to add a file dump to disk of what comes up the /Midi channel that could then be inspected with hexdump or similar, if I asked real sweet. ;-) I also suspect that part of my problem is a drivewire.jar that is newer than its gui.jar, and there could be some miss-matches there as I cannot hear any diffs when I change the table on the fly. Hth, I hope so too, thanks Ralf. Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Windows 98 is *NOT* a virus - viruses are small and efficient. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Question re midi
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 07:35:44 AM Gordon JC Pearce did opine: Aaron, here is a few more for the translation tables, cz1000 this time. On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:53:35 -0500 gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Does anyone have, in their old yellowed dead tree archives, a list of instrument numbers vs instrument that would allow one to setup a translation table to massage some very old midi files into General Midi instrument numbers? I need a list of number vs instrument for the truly elderly Casio CZ-101 and for the Casio MT-240. On my CZ1000 the patches are zero-based: 00BRASS ENS.1 01 TRUMPET 02 VIOLIN 03 STRING ENS.1 04ELEC.PIANO 05ELEC.ORGAN 06 FLUTE 07SYNTH.BASS 08BRASS ENS.2 09VIBRAPHONE 0a CRISPY XYLOPHONE 0b SYNTH.STRINGS 0cFAIRY TALE 0dACCORDION 0e WHISTLE 0fPERCUSSION I've no idea what the RAM presets were, as standard. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Thinking you know something is a sure way to blind yourself. -- Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] More midi related questions
Greetings all; Still trying to sort reasons why a java app can't access the midi synth in my sound card. From an aplaymidi -l: [root@coyote modprobe.d]# aplaymidi -l PortClient name Port name 14:0Midi Through Midi Through Port-0 16:0SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 (UART) 16:32 SB Audigy 2 Value [SB0400] Audigy MPU-401 #2 17:0Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 0 17:1Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 1 17:2Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 2 17:3Emu10k1 WaveTableEmu10k1 Port 3 Can I make the inference that a .mid file sent to 14:0 should find its way to one of the 17:n ports? It only works if I -s to 17:0(thru 3) Java, by its scanning methods, finds a huge list of ports, but only the semi-broken, internal to java, synth actually makes a noise. If I switch to amidi -l, the list is a bit shorter: Dir DeviceName IO hw:0,0Audigy MPU-401 (UART) IO hw:0,1Audigy MPU-401 #2 IO hw:0,2Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) IO hw:0,3Emu10k1 Synth MIDI (16 subdevices) but sending a midi file to the latter pair, while taking the normal play time for the file, is also silent. KMix gain is turned up quite a ways. From the lengthy output of amixer contents: numid=7,iface=MIXER,name='Synth Playback Volume' ; type=INTEGER,access=rw---R--,values=2,min=0,max=100,step=0 : values=72,72 | dBscale-min=-40.00dB,step=0.40dB,mute=1 But since aplaymidi works, I'm confused, does mute=1 mean it is live, not off? When java scans for synths, I get at the end of the listing, a realtime_synth as device #68 in base 0. But I haven't a clue if that is the audigy2's synths, but its silent in any event. The target here is to somehow link this so the java system can actually use the hardware synths in an Audigy2 Value card. But any attempt to send to a (hw0:0) thru (hw0:3) path is silent, however aplaymidi always uses the same amount of time to send the file. Suggestions of what to check next?, please as I am lost in whatever translations actually take place because there seems to be 2 different methods of accessing a device and I can't find how they correlate. Thank you. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene The Amiga is the only personal computer where you can run a multitasking operating system and get realtime performance, out of the box. -- Peter da Silva ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] Question re midi
Does anyone have, in their old yellowed dead tree archives, a list of instrument numbers vs instrument that would allow one to setup a translation table to massage some very old midi files into General Midi instrument numbers? I need a list of number vs instrument for the truly elderly Casio CZ-101 and for the Casio MT-240. Google doesn't seem to be a lot of help and the original users manual for the MT-240 very carefully skips that. Some music I moused in 20 years ago sounds terrible when played through a modern GM player. Something has turned into a screaming Picolo and is threatening to burn out my tweeters. Any help will be very muchly appreciated. Thanks. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene BE ALERT (The world needs more lerts...) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Question re midi
On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 12:48:32 AM Tim E. Real did opine: On December 12, 2011 11:53:35 PM gene heskett wrote: Does anyone have, in their old yellowed dead tree archives, a list of instrument numbers vs instrument that would allow one to setup a translation table to massage some very old midi files into General Midi instrument numbers? I need a list of number vs instrument for the truly elderly Casio CZ-101 and for the Casio MT-240. Google doesn't seem to be a lot of help and the original users manual for the MT-240 very carefully skips that. Some music I moused in 20 years ago sounds terrible when played through a modern GM player. Something has turned into a screaming Picolo and is threatening to burn out my tweeters. Any help will be very muchly appreciated. Thanks. Cheers, Gene I downloaded the MT-240 manual. I did that too before I posted. :) What about information on page 18 - any use? A little, but while it claims 210, the midi spec only allows 127. What are 0-19, ans 30-127? Large mystery I guess short of rigging a loop to repeatedly send each number see if I can figure out what instrument it is supposed to sound like. Nothing I can get from its own front panel sounds remotely like the screaming Picolo I'm getting for the melody line. The software I'm playing it with has several 'translation tables' available so as to do a best match between GM and say an old Yamaha PSS-480 or 3 or 5 other older casio's rolands plus straight GM but something is miss- matched, badly. I'll plug it (the MT-240) directly into the original midi out port tomorrow and see if its good, or if the scores are suffering from bit rot after 20 years. Thanks for taking the time to look, I appreciate your efforts Tim. It says midi program 20 thru 29 produce the preset tones and lists them. The manual says it produces the 210 tone bank sounds by layering these presets together. Tim. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Don't vote -- it only encourages them! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] bleeding edge html5 has interesting Audio APIs
On Tuesday, November 22, 2011 11:06:43 AM Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 09:55:31AM -0500, Egor Sanin wrote: If you are aware of the different behaviour, and still use the slider, you want to change the current value. I may want to explore the effect of a change and return to the original value. A valid point. If you don't want to change the current value, don't touch the slider. Very easily done accidentally in a dense layout. This, IMO is operator error. That doesn't mean that an interface can't be coded up that encourages such though. :( If you want finer control of your parameters, there are different approaches. This is not necessarily about finer control, but about having 'preferred' parameter values (e.g. semitones for an oscillator frequency). This should always be possible without having to type numbers. In which case a 2nd multi-selector might be needed, to switch between a tempered scale and a non-tempered scale, in such a manner that its global and pinned to A=440. That exposes the need for a tune in cents button that applies globally also, to tune it to accompany for instance a pipe organ which is not being played at the same ambient temps as when the organ constructor last tuned it. It also assumes he had an adequate std reference much better than a tuning fork. Sadly, many who pass therm selves off as organ techs, don't. But that is also not Germain to this thread. This need for more buttons can be carried to extreme silliness of course but the point is at least semi valid. This is an interesting thread, made moreso by FA's injections, do carry on. Referring to the .png image previous in this thread, limiting the colors used to a greyscale personally detracts from the 'eye candy' aspect. But that is just me. Ciao, Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene My uncle was the town drunk -- and we lived in Chicago. -- George Gobel ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] RAUL?
On Wednesday, November 16, 2011 03:13:06 AM Louigi Verona did opine: Hey guys! I'd like to chime in here. No disrespect meant to anyone and to anyone's work, but the phrase along the lines of there are a lot of people around who think it's perfectly ok to make money by using work of others without paying them seems to be missing the point of GPL. The way I see it, the phrase instead should be something like: there are a lot of people who want to take code, created with respect to other people's freedom, and turn it into proprietary. Money is irrelevant in this regard. No it isn't, its the root cause of the disagreement here regardless of what you are smoking. The turkeys Fons is fussing about are looking at THEIR bottom line, and when they found they couldn't 'borrow' it for free, they may have decided to just borrow it anyway. Time will, if Harald Waite takes it on, tell that tale, and if true the courts generally are agreeable to a fee sufficiently punitive as to discourage that sort of behavior in the future. Not for the goal of being controversial, I would also like to add that I do think it is okay to make money by using work of others without paying them as long as the work is released to the public and not offered to you as work for hire. This is also generally true. This is why I see any licenses that limit distribution and usage of creative work as undesirable and unfounded. Even things like GPL and CC seem to me like just lesser evil, as it still assumes that the author of the work can be considered an owner of his ideas and thus assumes that ideas can be property. This raises many-many problems, one of which is giving the author too much power over society. The bottom line here, for this paragraph, is that if you don't like the license terms, you are perfectly free to write your own version of the wheel, just do it in a clean room, you cannot have ever seen a copy of that source code. If, OTOH, you are not capable of doing that, and the only way to get the job done is to use something that has a license that is distasteful to you, then you should retrain your taste buds and comply with the terms. The license copyright notices the author chooses to put on his output ARE what he/she puts on it and you have zero rights to decide otherwise. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene To be or not to be, that is the bottom line. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] RAUL?
On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:14:21 AM Harry van Haaren did opine: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Tristan Matthews le.business...@gmail.comwrote: FYI, you're well within your rights to earn money from GPL software, see: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html Although you are right in the technical sense, I don't agree profiting from other peoples work on moral grounds. For example: http://www.illusionmage.com/ is a site that will sell you a copy of Blender, with a rebranded logo. Because Blender is GPL, any modifications must also be GPL. So the author of Illusionmage created a patch (available http://www.illusionmage.com/disclaimer.htm) and now sells the whole package for 47$ a pop. Although this technically complies with the GPL, I find it abusive of the GPL on moral grounds. I must agree with you that indeed selling GPL is allowed in the technical sense though. -H The GPL still has teeth. However if this reseller is using the profits to fund improvements and/or bug fixing, AND those patches are being contributed back, then I have no huge moral problems with it. It may resemble a wine vs crossover thing, if you want the latest, buy crossover. If wine will run your app, that is ok too. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene You can't go home again, unless you set $HOME. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] RAUL?
On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 04:24:46 PM Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:20:11AM -0500, gene heskett wrote: The GPL still has teeth. However if this reseller is using the profits to fund improvements and/or bug fixing, AND those patches are being contributed back, then I have no huge moral problems with it. It may resemble a wine vs crossover thing, if you want the latest, buy crossover. If wine will run your app, that is ok too. I just stopped counting the number of times I've been asked to change the license of some of my code from GPL to LGPL 'so we can use it in our product'. There seem to be a lot of people around who just think it's perfectly OK to make money by using work of others without paying them. The latest was just a few weeks ago, MikrosImage www.mikrosimage.eu. I offered them a commercial license at a price that would have been peanuts to them. Result: not even a reply. They are probably using my code now anyway. That, to be polite, sucks, Fons. And I certainly would get in touch with Harold Waite at the FSF, relating every instance of your interchanges with them. I get the impression that the EU courts have been more friendly to the GPL folks than ours have been. It may be that the FSF can force discovery since something so simple could be found in just the complete makefile tree of their product. I've no idea there, but here, a search warrant seems easy enough to get, and that alone often triggers a settlement and compliance. Good luck. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene The trouble with heart disease is that the first symptom is often hard to deal with: death. -- Michael Phelps ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] ALPHA: jiss - Jack Interactice Sequencing Software
On Monday, November 14, 2011 12:20:10 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine: Hi again, hijacking this thread to announce that I created a WIKI page to give a short sumary/tutorial on jiss here (WIP like everything in jiss right now): https://github.com/fps/jiss/wiki Answering your post further down: On 11/14/2011 06:10 AM, gene heskett wrote: Yeah, the compressor is added 'cause I happen to like that 30db breathing sound ;D The wicked.lua jiss-script itself only sends the midi notes out (in my case to jass which then goes through jack-rack with reverb and compressor) It's maybe not the best example to demonstrate jiss, cause it might put many listeners off (especially with the clipping, too ;D). I'll upload a cleaner rendition sometime tomorrow.. Thanks for the comment.. I almost didn't send that, but the sound reminded me of the sound I inherited when I became the CE at WDTV-5, back in '84, here in West Virginia. That put me off so much I told the GM I hadn't heard so much heavy breathing since shortly after lights out last night, when I asked for permission to replace a brand new piece of gear with something I knew would do the job and be essentially transparent to the listeners, an old CBS Labs AudiMax, followed by, on the other end of the studio-transmitter microwave path, an equally ancient CBS Labs FM Volumax. They worked, but it was extremely rare and took a trained ear, to detect that they were working. As a C.E.T., I had fun keeping them running, first replacing all the small electrolytics used for coupling capacitors with paper/mylar, which put a stop to the twice annual rebuild by shotgunning all the caps, then eventually the gain controlling tetrode nuvistor vacuum tube faded away (they are made of pure unobtainium now) and I had to adapt a dual gate Mosfet transistor to handle that. But those 2 processors made it to about 50 years old by the time we switched to all digital in mid 2008. I can never hope to have my software reach that age and still function ;D Too much dirty hacking for that :D Yeah, but back then we didn't even have the concept of null pointers, it was all analog, hopefully linear stuff and thd's were in the 1 to 2% areas. We've come a long way since then, and I hope its been an improvement. :) But that does bring up the unspoken requirement that a modern digital version of such a device has to be capable of withstanding huge longitudinal over voltages from nearby lightning strikes and the EMP associated which means power strip types of varistors to absorbed them, and absolutely un-crashable, fully capable of year+ uptimes. Such code can be written, I've done it, without benefit of watchdogs, and some of my code has been in continuous use at the broadcast facility I wrote it for, for open ended periods that have approached 2 decades with only hardware failures and repairs thereof interrupting it. One was written in 1802 hex code, and one written in Basic09 for the os9 operating system on TRS-80 Color Computers. But my little helper scripts I use here, today, were all done in bash I haven't quite managed to make my kmail helper immune to out of order startups, yet. Am I prolonging the agony of old age? Probably, but no one knows better than I that I am not the coder I was 20 years ago on far simpler hardware than this quad core phenom picking up my keystrokes now. Besides, I have w to many interests, including making sawdust and furniture in my waneing years. Currently working on a gunstock for a black powder rifle, one that hasn't been seen on such primitive weapons yet, modern thumbhole style, my 5th such project in the 50 years since the first one. Now I'm going to wander off topic, sort of. Please feel free :D Frankly, broadcasters sorely need such a characteristic device in the digital path right now, and if some enterprising coder were to write that code to interface with the usual EIA digital audio format, and build it into a black box with the usual connectors on it, he/she would find themselves busier than that famous cat on the equally famous tin roof until they had filled up the market, which is, here in the states, 1500 to 2000 tv stations. Multiply that by the number of channels the digital broadcaster is using today, which for us is 4, and you'll have to hire help building them for 2 or 3 years. Sounds like a plan. I might actually look into that. I'm unemployed atm, that's why i have time to hack on jass and jiss, so creating something like that might be an option.. Even if it takes some serious research/hacking/board-design, etc.. Free time is almost all you need these days to create stuff. It's a bit more resource-intensive to create a box with the required interface, but that is kinda independent of the software actually running on the device.. Pretty much, the i/o itself will be mostly cut paste from
Re: [LAD] [ANN] ALPHA: jiss - Jack Interactice Sequencing Software
On Monday, November 14, 2011 01:03:25 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine:
On 11/14/2011 05:01 AM, gene heskett wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:46:57 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did
opine:
Played with the pclos default .ogg player.
http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~tapas/stella.ogg
I updated the example: Lessened the breathing to something like 10db and
added a bass:
http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~tapas/stella_jiss.ogg
But now the overall level is -50db. I can just barely hear the .ogg. Same
player.
https://github.com/fps/jiss/blob/master/wicked.lua
Sounds a bit more like music now :D
Flo
Nice clean sounding synth, but as an old BC engineer, it sounds like
there is a DBX-165 compressor that is badly adjusted in the output
path. The whole thing is breathing about 30db with the kicker drum,
and gain recovery is about half the drum period. If you wanted that
effect, you got it in spades, but to these ears the compression is
way overdone and I think you will find it generates ear fatigue in
the average listener quickly.
I don't enjoy raining on anybodies parade that obviously has a lot of
work in creating a creative tool like this is intended to be, so
please take this as constructively as possible.
(wicked.lua code here with some omission of some chords at the start
and some remarks in comments added):
-- some stuff :D
require jiss
require jissing
-- create engine in stopped state
e = jiss.engine()
-- setup some state that the sequences later use
-- e:run can only be used when the engine is stopped..
-- as this is executed in non-RT context it's ok to
-- create some variables and tables here..
e:run([[
bar = 0;
min = 20;
max = 80;
stella = {
range(min, 80, min7b5(E(4))),
range(min, 80, min7b5(E(4))),
-- cut away quite a bit here (see wicked.lua in git clone)
:D
range(min, 80, maj7s11(B(4)-1)),
range(min, 80, maj7s11(B(4)-1))
}
]])
-- this sequence can control the others since it's processed before
-- the others in the engine
-- events string is newline sensitive. in this case the events
-- on consecutive lines are spaced 1 second apart..
-- also: loop back to 0 at time t = 8 sec
tune = seq(e, tune, loop_events(8, events_string(1, [[
drums1:relocate(0.0); drums1:start_(); notes:relocate(0.0);
notes:start_()
drums1:stop_();
]])))
-- manually start this sequence and add to the engine
tune:start()
-- note that a copy is appended to the engine
e:append(tune)
-- a sequence that controls the global variable bar to advance
through the song
play(e, seq(e, control, loop_events(1, events_string(1, [[
bar = bar + 1; bar = (bar % #stella);
]]
-- events at fixed times. loop at t = 0.75 sec
play(e, seq(e, notes,
loop_events(0.75, {
{ 0.125, [[ for i = 1,4 do note_on(0, 24 +
stella[bar][math.random(#stella[bar])], 30 + math.random()*64) end
]]},
{ 0.5, [[ for i = 1,2 do note_on(0, 24 +
stella[bar][math.random(#stella[bar])], 10 + math.random()*34) end ]]
} })))
-- a drum pattern
drums = [[
note_on(1, 64, 127); note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
note_on(2, 42, 110)
note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
note_on(1, 64, 127); note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
]]
play(e, seq(e, drums1, loop_events(1, events_string(0.125/2,
drums
-- connect all sequence outputs to jass:in
connect(e,jass:in)
-- run the whole thing
e:start()
-- wait for the user to press enter
io.stdin:read'*l'
Have fun,
Flo
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--
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Humor in the Court:
Q: ...any suggestions as to what prevented this from being a murder trial
instead of an attempted murder trial?
A: The victim lived.
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ALPHA: jiss - Jack Interactice Sequencing Software
On Monday, November 14, 2011 04:28:27 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine: On 11/14/2011 07:09 PM, Florian Paul Schmidt wrote: On 11/14/2011 07:04 PM, gene heskett wrote: On Monday, November 14, 2011 01:03:25 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine: On 11/14/2011 05:01 AM, gene heskett wrote: On Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:46:57 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine: Played with the pclos default .ogg player. http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~tapas/stella.ogg I updated the example: Lessened the breathing to something like 10db and added a bass: http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~tapas/stella_jiss.ogg But now the overall level is -50db. I can just barely hear the .ogg. Same player. Really? That's weird.. hmm.. I suck.. ;D BTW: the ogg plays perfectly fine here with mplayer.. I was using whatever FF uses only see a blank FF screen with a progress bar. And while a repeat did not work any better when I sent that, it now plays just fine. One of those things that make you go hu. :( Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene You've got to have a gimmick if your band sucks. -- Gary Giddens ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [ANN] ALPHA: jiss - Jack Interactice Sequencing Software
On Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:46:57 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine:
Played with the pclos default .ogg player.
http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~tapas/stella.ogg
Nice clean sounding synth, but as an old BC engineer, it sounds like there
is a DBX-165 compressor that is badly adjusted in the output path. The
whole thing is breathing about 30db with the kicker drum, and gain
recovery is about half the drum period. If you wanted that effect, you got
it in spades, but to these ears the compression is way overdone and I think
you will find it generates ear fatigue in the average listener quickly.
I don't enjoy raining on anybodies parade that obviously has a lot of work
in creating a creative tool like this is intended to be, so please take
this as constructively as possible.
(wicked.lua code here with some omission of some chords at the start and
some remarks in comments added):
-- some stuff :D
require jiss
require jissing
-- create engine in stopped state
e = jiss.engine()
-- setup some state that the sequences later use
-- e:run can only be used when the engine is stopped..
-- as this is executed in non-RT context it's ok to
-- create some variables and tables here..
e:run([[
bar = 0;
min = 20;
max = 80;
stella = {
range(min, 80, min7b5(E(4))),
range(min, 80, min7b5(E(4))),
-- cut away quite a bit here (see wicked.lua in git clone) :D
range(min, 80, maj7s11(B(4)-1)),
range(min, 80, maj7s11(B(4)-1))
}
]])
-- this sequence can control the others since it's processed before
-- the others in the engine
-- events string is newline sensitive. in this case the events
-- on consecutive lines are spaced 1 second apart..
-- also: loop back to 0 at time t = 8 sec
tune = seq(e, tune, loop_events(8, events_string(1, [[
drums1:relocate(0.0); drums1:start_(); notes:relocate(0.0);
notes:start_()
drums1:stop_();
]])))
-- manually start this sequence and add to the engine
tune:start()
-- note that a copy is appended to the engine
e:append(tune)
-- a sequence that controls the global variable bar to advance through
the song
play(e, seq(e, control, loop_events(1, events_string(1, [[
bar = bar + 1; bar = (bar % #stella);
]]
-- events at fixed times. loop at t = 0.75 sec
play(e, seq(e, notes,
loop_events(0.75, {
{ 0.125, [[ for i = 1,4 do note_on(0, 24 +
stella[bar][math.random(#stella[bar])], 30 + math.random()*64) end
]]},
{ 0.5, [[ for i = 1,2 do note_on(0, 24 +
stella[bar][math.random(#stella[bar])], 10 + math.random()*34) end ]] }
})))
-- a drum pattern
drums = [[
note_on(1, 64, 127); note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
note_on(2, 42, 110)
note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
note_on(1, 64, 127); note_on(2, 64, 127)
note_on(2, 64, math.random(127))
]]
play(e, seq(e, drums1, loop_events(1, events_string(0.125/2, drums
-- connect all sequence outputs to jass:in
connect(e,jass:in)
-- run the whole thing
e:start()
-- wait for the user to press enter
io.stdin:read'*l'
Have fun,
Flo
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Cheers, Gene
--
There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene
Someday somebody has got to decide whether the typewriter is the machine,
or the person who operates it.
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Re: [LAD] [ANN] ALPHA: jiss - Jack Interactice Sequencing Software
On Sunday, November 13, 2011 11:11:06 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine: On 11/14/2011 05:01 AM, gene heskett wrote: On Sunday, November 13, 2011 10:46:57 PM Florian Paul Schmidt did opine: Played with the pclos default .ogg player. http://shirkhan.dyndns.org/~tapas/stella.ogg Nice clean sounding synth, but as an old BC engineer, it sounds like there is a DBX-165 compressor that is badly adjusted in the output path. The whole thing is breathing about 30db with the kicker drum, and gain recovery is about half the drum period. If you wanted that effect, you got it in spades, but to these ears the compression is way overdone and I think you will find it generates ear fatigue in the average listener quickly. I don't enjoy raining on anybodies parade that obviously has a lot of work in creating a creative tool like this is intended to be, so please take this as constructively as possible. Yeah, the compressor is added 'cause I happen to like that 30db breathing sound ;D The wicked.lua jiss-script itself only sends the midi notes out (in my case to jass which then goes through jack-rack with reverb and compressor) It's maybe not the best example to demonstrate jiss, cause it might put many listeners off (especially with the clipping, too ;D). I'll upload a cleaner rendition sometime tomorrow.. Thanks for the comment.. I almost didn't send that, but the sound reminded me of the sound I inherited when I became the CE at WDTV-5, back in '84, here in West Virginia. That put me off so much I told the GM I hadn't heard so much heavy breathing since shortly after lights out last night, when I asked for permission to replace a brand new piece of gear with something I knew would do the job and be essentially transparent to the listeners, an old CBS Labs AudiMax, followed by, on the other end of the studio-transmitter microwave path, an equally ancient CBS Labs FM Volumax. They worked, but it was extremely rare and took a trained ear, to detect that they were working. As a C.E.T., I had fun keeping them running, first replacing all the small electrolytics used for coupling capacitors with paper/mylar, which put a stop to the twice annual rebuild by shotgunning all the caps, then eventually the gain controlling tetrode nuvistor vacuum tube faded away (they are made of pure unobtainium now) and I had to adapt a dual gate Mosfet transistor to handle that. But those 2 processors made it to about 50 years old by the time we switched to all digital in mid 2008. Now I'm going to wander off topic, sort of. Frankly, broadcasters sorely need such a characteristic device in the digital path right now, and if some enterprising coder were to write that code to interface with the usual EIA digital audio format, and build it into a black box with the usual connectors on it, he/she would find themselves busier than that famous cat on the equally famous tin roof until they had filled up the market, which is, here in the states, 1500 to 2000 tv stations. Multiply that by the number of channels the digital broadcaster is using today, which for us is 4, and you'll have to hire help building them for 2 or 3 years. I don't know if there is all that much info out on the net on how the Audimax worked, but surely any patents have long since expired. In the maintenance manual there was a rather complex test method to determine if it was working correctly, but its only controls were input and output gain T-pads so one could establish the correct internal levels for optimum operation. The Volumax is much easier to explain as it was designed to prevent HF over modulation only, caused by the 17db of pre-emphasis the 75 microsecond boost caused, allowing full mid-range levels, but rolling off the high end to prevent the HF stuff from exceeding the allowed occupied bandwidth, +-75khz for FM's and +-25khz for tv. Its gain control response was sub millisecond, both ways. But in digital, no such control is needed, but we surely, sorely need the equ of the Audimax. In fact, that is one of the reasons I have remained subscribed to this list. If somebody does this, I will be in the GM's office asking for a P.O. for 4 of them tomorrow morning. So please somebody do it before I fall over. Now 77 YO diabetic, retired (insert laugh track here, they never really let you) for 9 years, I still appear to have that sort of clout on the 2nd floor. Thanks Flo. [...] Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) My web page: http://coyoteden.dyndns-free.com:85/gene Everyone has a purpose in life. Perhaps yours is watching television. - David Letterman ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Determining Phase
On Sunday, June 26, 2011 02:48:01 PM Gordon JC Pearce did opine: On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 16:23:29 +0200 (CEST) pshir...@boosthardware.com wrote: Hi, Can anyone point me to a simple code example for how to determine the phase at a specific time in a waveform? ex. if I have a sample that is 5 seconds long and want to know the phase at 2.5 seconds I'm open to code in any language or a scripted example if such a tool exists. If there is an ui which has that feature I am also interested. There isn't really a way to do this. How would you tell the difference between 0.5*sin(pi/2) and 1.0*sin(pi/6) - try it and see, what are the answers? If you want to determine phase you need to know the amplitude. The only sane way to do both is to use a complex sample with an in-phase and a quadrature component. Gordon MM0YEQ I do not see how a repeatable, and therefore measurable quadrature component can be developed in a complex, multi-frequency waveform since the quadrature component is just as frequency dependent as any other method of measurement. Since the human ear is not sensitive to phasing, other than diffs between the two ears from delay/echo/reverb effects that help us determine direction of src, to me, this argument is moot and possibly a waste of time. Cheers, gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) If parents would only realize how they bore their children. -- G.B. Shaw ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Max V. Mathews (1926-2011)
On Friday, April 22, 2011 03:54:36 PM Folderol did opine: On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:22:31 -0400 Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:18 AM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Geoff Beasley ge...@laughingboyrecords.com wrote: On 04/22/2011 01:28 PM, gene heskett wrote: We all should all hold a moment of respectful silence, both for the man, and the legacy of his work. and to add to some sense of his legacy: on re-reading this i want to stress that it was absolutely not my intention to somehow try to tangle up ardour in mathew's legacy, or enjoy the side-effects of his well deserved fame. i just wanted to point out that without the groundbreak work that mathew's did, i would never have ended up doing what i do now. i owe him that, at the very least. We got that - don't worry :) I think it a great shame that none of today's kids seem to be taught about these people. or given any clue about how ideas from different people build on each other. +100 at least. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html Despite all appearances, your boss is a thinking, feeling, human being. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Max V. Mathews (1926-2011)
On Friday, April 22, 2011 04:38:36 PM Brad Garton did opine: On Apr 22, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Folderol wrote: I think it a great shame that none of today's kids seem to be taught about these people. or given any clue about how ideas from different people build on each other. none is kind of broad paintbrush, I think. The above is not true of the classes we teach at the CMC. I've usually played Bicycyle Built for Two by the second week of the term. brad http://music.columbia.edu/~brad Good for you Brad. These gung-ho music types (and I don't mean that to be derogatory) need the history lesson even if it chokes them to get it down. Test in the morning, folks. OTOH, many of our 'naturals' never got anywhere near a class like that, and have made millions. But those 'naturals' also are quite likely to have learned it on their own just because its part of the legacy of the field they produce new music in. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html A bore is a man who talks so much about himself that you can't talk about yourself. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Max V. Mathews (1926-2011)
On Thursday, April 21, 2011 09:45:40 PM Dave Phillips did opine: Greetings, The subject line says it. Sad tidings. dp Can you wrap some context around this Dave? I probably should know the name considering he was 8 years my elder, but it isn't a name I recall now. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html Here's something to think about: How come you never see a headline like `Psychic Wins Lottery.' -- Comedian Jay Leno ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Max V. Mathews (1926-2011)
On Thursday, April 21, 2011 11:24:50 PM Geoff Beasley did opine: On 04/22/2011 11:48 AM, gene heskett wrote: On Thursday, April 21, 2011 09:45:40 PM Dave Phillips did opine: Greetings, The subject line says it. Sad tidings. dp Can you wrap some context around this Dave? I probably should know the name considering he was 8 years my elder, but it isn't a name I recall now. here ya go Gene http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mathews g. Thanks. Obviously he turned over a lot of dirt that has grown some amazing crops since. We all should all hold a moment of respectful silence, both for the man, and the legacy of his work. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html Political history is far too criminal a subject to be a fit thing to teach children. -- W.H. Auden ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [offtopic] loopback
On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 07:15:19 AM Jens M Andreasen did opine: I did not get any? ... Not from LAD and not from Gene. Something is working though since Veronica apparently could see the message from Gene. Trying once more /j On Tue, 2011-04-12 at 23:08 -0700, Veronica Merryfield wrote: On 2011-04-12, at 2:04 PM, gene heskett wrote: On Tuesday, April 12, 2011 05:03:51 PM Jens M Andreasen did opine: Test: ISP ate my e-mail ... /j And this one made it through the gauntlet. Or the ISP was sleeping off it's meal. Doing a reply all this time, so you should get 2 copies if you get one from the list. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html james but, then I used an Atari, I was more likely to win the lottery in ten countries simultaneously than get accelerated X ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [offtopic] loopback
On Tuesday, April 12, 2011 05:03:51 PM Jens M Andreasen did opine: Test: ISP ate my e-mail ... /j And this one made it through the gauntlet. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html Your motives for doing whatever good deed you may have in mind will be misinterpreted by somebody. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins
On Thursday, March 03, 2011 10:01:22 pm Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Wed, Mar 02, 2011 at 09:33:43PM -0500, gene heskett wrote: On Wednesday, March 02, 2011 09:15:32 pm Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 12:17:40AM +0100, Stefano D'Angelo wrote: Does point #1 mean we basically may want visualization that expresses only a few properties of a certain waveform? Yes. Waveforms displays are completely useless for normal audio engineering. You may need them for technical purposes, when doing maintenance or testing. But there it ends. I beg to disagree with the premise that the waveform is useless. Please read again what I wrote above. All the examples you mention (and I agree with what you write about those) fall in the category 'technical purposes, when doing maintanance and testing'. Plus they are about testing and measuring analog equipment, while the context of this thread is about the GUI for audio plugins. Yes a good scope is an essential instrument when developing and testing equipment that is analog or has some analog parts, e.g. AD and DA converters. But it is useless for an engineer making a recording or doing a mix. Some of the best sounding commercials we ever did, were done during a time when our production guru started asking if he could watch the levels on a scope so I rigged one on the output of the production audio board. Then he got the itch to goto Alaska no one else seemed to care, despite my stated willingness to teach them. Now, we are all digital, and the levels are all over the map. Sucks. Ciao, -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz Ogden's Law: The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch up. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Portable user interfaces for LV2 plugins
On Wednesday, March 02, 2011 09:15:32 pm Fons Adriaensen did opine: On Thu, Mar 03, 2011 at 12:17:40AM +0100, Stefano D'Angelo wrote: Does point #1 mean we basically may want visualization that expresses only a few properties of a certain waveform? Yes. Waveforms displays are completely useless for normal audio engineering. You may need them for technical purposes, when doing maintenance or testing. But there it ends. Interesting properties are peak level, RMS level, spectrum, etc. and their short term history. A waveform just contains too much information that is in almost all cases irrelevant. It's easy to find waveforms that look completely different but sound just the same. Or some that look almost the same but sound very different. I beg to disagree with the premise that the waveform is useless. I have had a scope probe in one hand for 60 years now, and there is nothing that comes close to finding that slightly edgy sound that just isn't quite right like a good look at the waveform when you have a known test signal. Clipping is easier to see, crossover distortion is easily seen by the trained eye, and even slew rate limits can be made to stand out plain as day. Note however that I am not referring to a digitized waveform which has its own set of problems unless the sampling frequency is 100's of times faster than the signal being sampled, I am referring to the raw analog signal itself. Digitize crap,and you still have crap even if the digital sample is quite high and the A-D is totally monotonic. Consumer stuff rarely is either wide range linear, nor monotonic beyond 13 or 14 bits in a 16 bit system. Even 24 bit stuff probably falls face first in its oatmeal at 20 good bits. Yes, you can see the results of all those distortions by doing an FFT on the digital signal, but unless one is intimately familiar with the FFT display, it can't tell you the real problem is crossover related so you only guess, or find someone who can tell you whats wrong, and chances are, he will use an analog scope to find and point it out. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz 667: The neighbor of the beast. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [LAU] OpenOctaveMidi2 (OOM2) beta release
On Thursday, January 27, 2011 03:43:40 pm Chris Cannam did opine: On 27 January 2011 19:38, Christopher Cherrett ccherr...@openoctave.org wrote: I suspect there is much more to this puzzle than attribution. No, really not. Attribution is incredibly important to many open source developers, partly because there are so few tangible benefits involved with open source work, and partly because the force of the licenses we use (particularly the GPL) depends on being confident about the ownership of copyright. It matters a great deal to people if you take someone's work and represent it as your own. And it's a pity, because a situation like this or the earlier Rosegarden fork ought to be beneficial to everybody. With Rosegarden, your project's focus was different from that of any of our core developers and, although we like to keep people happy, we really weren't able to spend the time to do the things you wanted. Forking ensured that people who liked things your way had somewhere else to go, which made things better for them and simpler for us. In light of that, it's a great shame that the resulting new project should then give us such a sour impression -- and the same thing is true again here. Your casual attitude to other people's work means that I and probably many others would avoid working with you again, but that negative feeling could have been avoided with such a tiny amount of thought and even less work. Chris +1000 This very well said, Chris. I personally do not have a dog in this fight, but had that been some of my now elderly code, I think I would be justified in calling this new effort out, as has now been more than amply done by others here, and the point _has_ been made. Unfortunately, I am probably doing little except contributing to the roar of disapproval by the crowd.:( To Alex and your crew: It is likely that this contretemps will not fully settle until such time as the proper attributions have been restored and a new release containing those attributions has been made. Defensive attitudes do not cut it, performance does. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz A sine curve goes off to infinity, or at least the end of the blackboard. -- Prof. Steiner ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [LAU] OpenOctaveMidi2 (OOM2) beta release
On Thursday, January 27, 2011 04:02:20 pm Christopher Cherrett did opine: Original Message Subject: Re: [LAD] [LAU] OpenOctaveMidi2 (OOM2) beta release From: gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com To: linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org Date: 01/27/2011 01:57 PM On Thursday, January 27, 2011 03:43:40 pm Chris Cannam did opine: On 27 January 2011 19:38, Christopher Cherrettccherr...@openoctave.org wrote: I suspect there is much more to this puzzle than attribution. No, really not. Attribution is incredibly important to many open source developers, partly because there are so few tangible benefits involved with open source work, and partly because the force of the licenses we use (particularly the GPL) depends on being confident about the ownership of copyright. It matters a great deal to people if you take someone's work and represent it as your own. And it's a pity, because a situation like this or the earlier Rosegarden fork ought to be beneficial to everybody. With Rosegarden, your project's focus was different from that of any of our core developers and, although we like to keep people happy, we really weren't able to spend the time to do the things you wanted. Forking ensured that people who liked things your way had somewhere else to go, which made things better for them and simpler for us. In light of that, it's a great shame that the resulting new project should then give us such a sour impression -- and the same thing is true again here. Your casual attitude to other people's work means that I and probably many others would avoid working with you again, but that negative feeling could have been avoided with such a tiny amount of thought and even less work. Chris +1000 This very well said, Chris. I personally do not have a dog in this fight, but had that been some of my now elderly code, I think I would be justified in calling this new effort out, as has now been more than amply done by others here, and the point _has_ been made. Unfortunately, I am probably doing little except contributing to the roar of disapproval by the crowd.:( To Alex and your crew: It is likely that this contretemps will not fully settle until such time as the proper attributions have been restored and a new release containing those attributions has been made. Defensive attitudes do not cut it, performance does. A new release? What exactly do you expect? The correct attributions, possibly with a sentence or 2 describing how the fork came to be in the README in download able package. What, 10 minutes work plus the repacking? -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz Ten persons who speak make more noise than ten thousand who are silent. -- Napoleon I ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [LAU] OpenOctaveMidi2 (OOM2) beta release
On Thursday, January 27, 2011 04:23:53 pm Christopher Cherrett did opine: Original Message Subject: Re: [LAD] [LAU] OpenOctaveMidi2 (OOM2) beta release From: gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com To: linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org Date: 01/27/2011 02:07 PM On Thursday, January 27, 2011 04:02:20 pm Christopher Cherrett did opine: Original Message Subject: Re: [LAD] [LAU] OpenOctaveMidi2 (OOM2) beta release From: gene heskettghesk...@wdtv.com To: linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org Date: 01/27/2011 01:57 PM On Thursday, January 27, 2011 03:43:40 pm Chris Cannam did opine: On 27 January 2011 19:38, Christopher Cherrettccherr...@openoctave.org wrote: I suspect there is much more to this puzzle than attribution. No, really not. Attribution is incredibly important to many open source developers, partly because there are so few tangible benefits involved with open source work, and partly because the force of the licenses we use (particularly the GPL) depends on being confident about the ownership of copyright. It matters a great deal to people if you take someone's work and represent it as your own. And it's a pity, because a situation like this or the earlier Rosegarden fork ought to be beneficial to everybody. With Rosegarden, your project's focus was different from that of any of our core developers and, although we like to keep people happy, we really weren't able to spend the time to do the things you wanted. Forking ensured that people who liked things your way had somewhere else to go, which made things better for them and simpler for us. In light of that, it's a great shame that the resulting new project should then give us such a sour impression -- and the same thing is true again here. Your casual attitude to other people's work means that I and probably many others would avoid working with you again, but that negative feeling could have been avoided with such a tiny amount of thought and even less work. Chris +1000 This very well said, Chris. I personally do not have a dog in this fight, but had that been some of my now elderly code, I think I would be justified in calling this new effort out, as has now been more than amply done by others here, and the point _has_ been made. Unfortunately, I am probably doing little except contributing to the roar of disapproval by the crowd.:( To Alex and your crew: It is likely that this contretemps will not fully settle until such time as the proper attributions have been restored and a new release containing those attributions has been made. Defensive attitudes do not cut it, performance does. A new release? What exactly do you expect? The correct attributions, possibly with a sentence or 2 describing how the fork came to be in the README in download able package. What, 10 minutes work plus the repacking? Reasonable. We just have git so less than 10 minutes :) Chuckle. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) http://tinyurl.com/ddg5bz Mountain Dew and doughnuts... because breakfast is the most important meal of the day. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] 3ghz coax and soldering...
On Wednesday, January 19, 2011 07:25:59 am Robin Gareus did opine: On 01/19/2011 06:35 AM, gene heskett wrote: [...] I guess Joern's Studio is only 3 or 4 rooms. It's mostly because he mentioned wall sockets that I suggested this. It can also be the wall (or ceiling-mounted) type. I think they're called raceways or just cable-tray. Yup. It is currently running inside the ALICE detector @LHC. Yikes. If that ever collapses, it will emp into smoke, and and all electrical stuff for many meters around it. nah It will pull itself into a black hole of course :) They tried that once, took about a year to rebuild things IIRC. :( That, it can be said is NOT a friendly environment. Even your $15 Casio wrist watch is in danger if you move too fast in that. The magnetic field you mean? The tricky part is get close enough. You'll need a few weeks to undo all the screws on the enclosure and not get kicked out in the meantime. Once you get in there you don't need to move, the electrons inside the watch are already moving fast enough. The only workaround is to have only short interconnects and lots of bulk in between them. Luckily this is an OT post: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2010/09/21/dont-cross-the -lhc-stream/ Interesting what drifting conversations do when brains get together. [...] Silver solder, or just silver bearing solder? likely both. It is a very well equipped lab. There was a small hand-torch in there as well. Though I think it was mostly used as a spare lighter :) And of course its out of gas if you need to fire it up and get enough heat out of it to do a silver joint. There is a Murphy's Law corollary about that I've seen someplace. ;-) [...] Thank you for the lengthy explanation. NP. When I get started, like most old farts with a lng history in broadcasting, I don't know when its time to shut up. ;-) ciao, robin Thanks Robin -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) No two persons ever read the same book. -- Edmund Wilson ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] 3ghz coax and soldering...
On Tuesday, January 18, 2011 09:16:00 pm Robin Gareus did opine: Hi Joern, If it is an option: use Leerrohre (DE for empty tubes ?) to make it future-proof, rather than to rely on cable-standards. In a few years you may want to replace coax with optical or whatever. I think that would translate to wave-guides in English, but check your sizes, at 3Ghz, they are hundreds of times greater cross sectional area than a coax would be. Also, a lot less loss if properly terminated. 250 feet of it has less loss than 3 feet of this mini-coax in common use now, but you would have at least $20k in that 250 feet too. In short, optical seems the best way to go. I helped setup a fiber link several years ago that was 39 kilometers long, and the end to end optical loss was 0.5 db. You can't do that with wave-guide or a G-Line, and coax would have likely been 60-80db of loss and much less bandwidth, we stuffed 4 television channels though that fiber. The only question I can answer is #4: The problem is reflections caused by skin-effect if you do solder them. Back in the days that I spent in the physics dept. we used solder-less crimp connectors for everything high-freq. I can't testify about 3Gb+ solder joints, but I do know that properly done, they are invisible at .6 Ghz. You may have to putz with it a bit, but it CAN be done. And, I have yet to see a physics prof that actually knew which end of the iron got hot, let alone could actually make a good joint. Too many have the attitude that their hands do not fit the tools and make no effort to teach themselves how to do it. I will allow the comment that when fabricating wave-guide parts and filters for 7Ghz work, which I have done a few of decades ago, those were usually silver soldered because the regular tin/lead solders surfaces oxidized with time much worse, screwing with the skin effect losses. Silver oxide may look fugly, but is still a pretty fair conductor when frequencies are in the realm where skin effect reigns supreme. Just as true inside the wave- guide as it is on the skin of a coax conductor. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) After twelve years of therapy my psychiatrist said something that brought tears to my eyes. He said, No hablo ingles. -- Ronnie Shakes ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] 3ghz coax and soldering...
On Tuesday, January 18, 2011 09:40:50 pm f...@kokkinizita.net did opine: Hello Fons ;-) On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 10:59:59PM +0100, J�rn Nettingsmeier wrote: * source * 5m or so of suitable cable * bnc wall socket * 20m installation cable (-63dB/100m @ 3ghz) * a ghielmetti patchbay (which includes two canare contacts to the patch cord and two bnc on the rear, unfortunately) * another 20m installation cable * bnc wall socket * another 5m cable * sink Which is several reflections and a lot of vswr in a 75 ohm video circuit. Why? Unless special ordered, the bnc connector you can by in 20 pound bags, is a 50 ohm connector, and every one encountered in a 75 ohm video circuit sticks up like a pocket combs teeth on a TDR. The down side is that while there are 75 ohm bnc available, there is no provision to prevent someone from plugged a 50 ohm connector into that 75 ohm socket. The 50 pin is too big for the 75 ohm socket and breaks the female socket, expanding it so that a proper 75 ohm connector will likely not even make a connection when its locked on. Here in the states, after encountering lots of that sort of damaged sockets, I did find a src of 75 ohm bnc's but then had to go round up the right sized numbered drill bit and a pin vice to spin it with, and drill out the back end of the pin in order to get my fav 75 ohm video cables center conductor into the pin for crimping. Needless to say that makes for about 4x the time in installing the connector. My fav cable is Susan Clarks (Clark Wire Cable) type 7559, its quad shielded with both a silver plated 90% or so braid over a metalized mylar wrap on the foam core for s shielding effectiveness of about 110 db, and with its foam core, its both low loss and very very flexible. question 1: any hopes for reliable hd-sdi? Can't really answer this. But BNC seems to be the standard connector for this, so it's probably OK. And as long as its not what we here in the US call a 'Cambridge' connector, which is a solderless install, you special strip the coax and literally screw the connector onto the end of the cable. But its a time bomb whose fuse could be as little as a couple of months long when install on a soft foam cored cable. The cable cold flows and collapses away from the connector shell and you have a very poor shield connection and crosstalk you can see at the other end of the cable when there are 40 such cables bound in a truck going 10 meters to another rack. question 2: how can it be that a kick-ass company like ghielmetti does not offer video patchbays that allow direct connection of coax installation cables, but require rear bnc connections instead? This is probably just a question of being practical. Wiring up a patch bay to things outside the rack (or the equipment it is part of) without connectors leaves you with something that is more or less cast in stone. It can also be quite difficult to install. I recently wired up a 96 point audio patchbay without rear connectors (i.e. soldered), with almost all of the connections going outside. Luckily these cables had the other end free and didn't go into some wall. But I'll avoid to do that again... I doing another one these days (the Sala dei Concerti - you know the system needs some rewiring :-) but this time the patchbay has rear connectors - it would be near impossible get it wired up otherwise. question 2b: is there an alternative for direct rear coax connection, thereby cutting out two potentially disruptive contact surfaces? Haven't seen it. When I was working at Alcatel, all HF racks we constructed had back panels with double through-panel BNCs for external connections. No external cable would ever be attached directly to any of the equipment inside the rack. And more often than not, the same through-panel BNCs were used on the actual equipment boxes themselves, with an internal BNC-SMA cable to connect to the PCBs. So any signal going in or out would pass via at least 4 BNCs, and 4 again if routed to another rack. I often worried about this (since we mostly did equipment doing very precise phase measurements etc.), but the HF 'old hands' told me each time that I shouldn't. As long as the cable lengths were matched, shrug. For really critical stuff at 2 GHz and above they would prefer SMA, and if things were really extreme the coax cables would be replaced by rigid tubes, welded to the SMA connectors using special HF induction welding equipment. SMA handles much higher frequencies than BNC, but I don't think it matters for SDI. question 3: i'm thinking of getting neutrik isolated bnc connectors (the d-type ones that are semi-recessed and thus well protected from clumsy passers-by). but their soldering lugs break the coaxial structure - cause for concern? That could well be cause for concern. Is there really any advantage to recessed BNCs ? The connector itself is usually solid
Re: [LAD] [OT] 3ghz coax and soldering...
On Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:12:05 am Robin Gareus did opine: On 01/19/2011 03:39 AM, gene heskett wrote: On Tuesday, January 18, 2011 09:16:00 pm Robin Gareus did opine: Hi Joern, If it is an option: use Leerrohre (DE for empty tubes ?) to make it future-proof, rather than to rely on cable-standards. In a few years you may want to replace coax with optical or whatever. I think that would translate to wave-guides in English nope. I mean tubes like pipes in the wall or floor that allow one to easily replace cables that run inside those tubes. It'd still be a major re-wiring task but at least one can change the wires easily compared to in-wall mounted cables. Ahh, so, here that is called conduit and can be metallic or more likely in recent years, plastic, glued up just like water pipe and smoother to pull wires through than the metallic stuff. Both need plenty of snot on the wires for a temp lubricant if going very far, and about 3 bends is still the limit for one pull run. Some trivial mechanical suggestion for a future-proof studio (not an electrical one) at least if future 10 years and esp. if you don't want to rip the whole studio apart for major renovation. but wave-guides are a good drift. but check your sizes, at 3Ghz, they are hundreds of times greater cross sectional area than a coax would be. Also, a lot less loss if properly terminated. 250 feet of it has less loss than 3 feet of this mini-coax in common use now, but you would have at least $20k in that 250 feet too. In short, optical seems the best way to go. I helped setup a fiber link several years ago that was 39 kilometers long, and the end to end optical loss was 0.5 db. You can't do that with wave-guide or a G-Line, and coax would have likely been 60-80db of loss and much less bandwidth, we stuffed 4 television channels though that fiber. The only question I can answer is #4: The problem is reflections caused by skin-effect if you do solder them. Back in the days that I spent in the physics dept. we used solder-less crimp connectors for everything high-freq. I can't testify about 3Gb+ solder joints, but I do know that properly done, they are invisible at .6 Ghz. You may have to putz with it a bit, but it CAN be done. sure, one question is if it can be done by Joern and another is if shelling out more euros for a proper crimp-on connectors is worth not to worry about possible bad solder joints. Keyword there is proper, there is a lot of trash for sale at Radio Shack friends. And, I have yet to see a physics prof that actually knew which end of the iron got hot, let alone could actually make a good joint. Too many have the attitude that their hands do not fit the tools and make no effort to teach themselves how to do it. LOL. Thought someone might like that. This was/is experimental physics in cooperation with hardware-informatics. Eventually we designed custom ASICs and did the PCBs and soldering of the prototypes ourself, pretty much everything is non-standard since it must be able to work in a 5 Tesla magnetic field. It is currently running inside the ALICE detector @LHC. Yikes. If that ever collapses, it will emp into smoke, and and all electrical stuff for many meters around it. That, it can be said is NOT a friendly environment. Even your $15 Casio wrist watch is in danger if you move too fast in that. I will allow the comment that when fabricating wave-guide parts and filters for 7Ghz work, which I have done a few of decades ago, those were usually silver soldered because the regular tin/lead solders surfaces oxidized with time much worse, screwing with the skin effect losses. Silver oxide may look fugly, but is still a pretty fair conductor when frequencies are in the realm where skin effect reigns supreme. Just as true inside the wave- guide as it is on the skin of a coax conductor. interesting. I do remember a drawer with at least 15 different kind of solder. Now I know what that silver stuff in there was in there for :) Silver solder, or just silver bearing solder? The latter seems to top out at about 3% siver in an otherwise eutectic allow, but is a noticeably stronger solder mechanically that doesn't oxidize near as fast. I don't use anything else myself but it does raise the iron temps needed by 50-100F, which leads to needing to clean the tips more often. Real silver solder needs a propane or better torch or a tig for heat and you use a borax based flux that melts and forms an airtight puddle of liquid glass over the joint so the oxygen is sealed away from the hot metal, facilitating a nice clean joint when you feed the silver wire in to make a 'sweat' joint, like the plumbers do for copper piping. But the borax should be chipped away and removed once it has cooled as its a bit lossy at those frequencies. Properly done, you get the 'sweat' started, and pull
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:15:04 am Philipp Überbacher did opine: [...] I guess it really depends on what you try to achieve. Afaik the average life-span of a HD is puny 2 years. Some maybe. I have a 1Gb seacrate hawk I use on a TRS-80 Color Computer that is a good 15 years old, and I hooked up an old Quantum P40S beside it the other day that must be close to 18 years old. No bad sectors were found when I did a logical verify of the surface. From what I heard the magnetic tapes used by for example ESA a long time ago have a life-span of 80 years. If 'store it good and forget' is what you're after then tape seems like a good idea. That seems to be a recipe for disaster. Will there be a working tape drive to read those old tapes in even 40 years? Here, I use 4 1Tb drives as individual drives, 3 of which have individual installs on them, and the 4th is for amanda, doing nightly backups of whatever install I am running this year. With smartd running, I have been told far enough in advance of an impending drive failure that my email corpus has not been lost since early 2002. As for my university, as far as I know they use some RAID system for everyday and tapes for sensitive data. And they already had their whole RAID fail at the same time. So have I observed. Twice that I know of at my former, and occasionally still, employers. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Half the world is composed of people who have something to say and can't, and the other half who have nothing to say and keep on saying it. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:32:43 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 11:05 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I'm turning on my computer several times a day and my drives get broken after 2 years Last time this happened Gene recommended that I should hit the hard disk drive with a hammer on startup and it worked :). I was able to backup important data, but I couldn't backup all data. I noticed that after the HDD rest for a while, a week or so, it worked better when using the hammer, resp. I used a slat. I don't recall using the word hammer without the rubber prefix. That really is extreme, although I do have an old Maxtor 7120S that needs a pretty good bump to get it started. Once running, it has no bad sectors yet. The idea is that you give the drive a good bump, with the ball of your hand, or a small rubber hammer, striking the corner of the case so that the drives case is spun a few degrees in the same plane the disks inside turn. This breaks the heads loose from the disks, which have become so polished that they stick to the disk like a set of machinists 'Joes Blocks' which are so highly polished that one can bring them together in whatever thickness you need to set a gage with, by twisting them. They will remain stuck together until you twist them again breaking the atomic bond. If the drives case, and the heads attached to it, can be given enough of a twisting motion relative to the disks, by a sideways blow on the corner of the case, the heads will come loose and the drive motor will then have enough power to get the disks started. The heads will be flying on a film of air, as they are designed to do, before the disks have turned half a turn. Soft wood might do as it would dent, cushioning the blow somewhat without damaging the case casting. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) There are no accidents whatsoever in the universe. -- Baba Ram Dass ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:52:17 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 05:30 -0500, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:15:04 am Philipp �berbacher did opine: [...] I guess it really depends on what you try to achieve. Afaik the average life-span of a HD is puny 2 years. Some maybe. I have a 1Gb seacrate hawk I use on a TRS-80 Color Computer that is a good 15 years old, and I hooked up an old Quantum P40S beside it the other day that must be close to 18 years old. No bad sectors were found when I did a logical verify of the surface. Ok, my 40MB SCSI Seagate for the Atari is ok for more than 20 years, heavy usage, several startups a day. Sometimes I need to start it 2 or 3 times, but than it's ok. From what I heard the magnetic tapes used by for example ESA a long time ago have a life-span of 80 years. If 'store it good and forget' is what you're after then tape seems like a good idea. That seems to be a recipe for disaster. Will there be a working tape drive to read those old tapes in even 40 years? For analog tapes Dirk Brauner had Telefunken machines that are as old as you are and they were better than a lot of modern machines ;). I'll have to call you on that one, Ralf. It was some of your folks that invented the wire recorder in about '38 or '39, and the coated paper tape was sometime in the later 40's. I was born in '34. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Fools rush in -- and get the best seats in the house. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Friday, December 17, 2010 06:13:53 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 05:57 -0500, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:52:17 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Fri, 2010-12-17 at 05:30 -0500, gene heskett wrote: On Friday, December 17, 2010 05:15:04 am Philipp �berbacher did opine: [...] I guess it really depends on what you try to achieve. Afaik the average life-span of a HD is puny 2 years. Some maybe. I have a 1Gb seacrate hawk I use on a TRS-80 Color Computer that is a good 15 years old, and I hooked up an old Quantum P40S beside it the other day that must be close to 18 years old. No bad sectors were found when I did a logical verify of the surface. Ok, my 40MB SCSI Seagate for the Atari is ok for more than 20 years, heavy usage, several startups a day. Sometimes I need to start it 2 or 3 times, but than it's ok. From what I heard the magnetic tapes used by for example ESA a long time ago have a life-span of 80 years. If 'store it good and forget' is what you're after then tape seems like a good idea. That seems to be a recipe for disaster. Will there be a working tape drive to read those old tapes in even 40 years? For analog tapes Dirk Brauner had Telefunken machines that are as old as you are and they were better than a lot of modern machines ;). I'll have to call you on that one, Ralf. It was some of your folks that invented the wire recorder in about '38 or '39, and the coated paper tape was sometime in the later 40's. I was born in '34. I corrected myself, it's just because you're looking younger on your photos ;). Of course I do, that pic on my front page is 6 years old now. ;-) Of cause, I guess the Telefunk - or was it AEG? - machines were without tubes. The magnetic tape head had visible slots. The first Telefunken wire, or tape machines I saw, were definitely tubes. And older types at that, 8 pin octal based stuff. Yes folks, I have been chasing electrons for a living for a long time. And TBT, my first experience with a wire machine was enough to break me of any further interest. No amount of level winding contraptions could stop the backlashes broken wire. Not to mention the head wear rate was very high. At least we could get 200-400 hours out of the first tape heads if we fed then plastic tape. Wire, maybe 50 hours as the wire sawed them deeply in just a few hours. Because the tapes were stored spooled to the end, there even was no audible crosstalk at the beginning of the recordings. Print through was a real problem in the early years. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Experiments must be reproducible; they should all fail in the same way. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Thursday, December 16, 2010 08:12:34 am Arnold Krille did opine: On Thursday 16 December 2010 01:13:24 Dan Kegel wrote: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 10:48 PM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Now, if we can just get a law that when I have ... issued the delete to the server, it truly was deleted For what it's worth, Google's caution in promising deletion is probably because it's not quite sure how to do that quickly. Users would be Very Very Angry if a disk outage or a fire in a datacenter resulted in the loss of their stored email, so Google probably has some sort of offsite backup arrangement, and that might complicate prompt deletion. ... yup, http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=enanswer=7401 says residual copies of deleted messages and accounts may take up to 60 days to be deleted from our active servers and may remain in our backup systems. So, if you were google, would you use tape backup? If so, how would you do that permanent deletion thing? If not, how would you make darn sure you didn't anger users by losing messages during a disaster? I don't think google uses magnet-tapes or similar for any backups except the vital core data of its business. Given the number and size of their data- centers around the world, they just sync the data to a different part of the world an be done with it. Of course the deletion has to be synced to all remote-copies and probably also forwarded to older backups but once such a mechanism is implemented it should do the actual delete within a day... There are even universities that decided against a new tape-library and in favor of a big stack of disks for long-term backup because these where cheaper, similar reliable and much faster for restore. And they don't need a special tape-library-managing app to access the data, a file-browser or the command-line is enough... Have fun, Arnold I run amanda here every night, but no tape, big disks instead. Much more usable come recovery times. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The real reason psychology is hard is that psychologists are trying to do the impossible. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Thursday, December 16, 2010 07:15:52 pm David Olofson did opine: On Thursday 16 December 2010, at 23.39.21, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice- dsl.net wrote: [...] Aaargh, I had an amp from an established company, can't remember this company, everything was connected by wire-wrapping, so indeed a good discrete circuit, but the wire-wrapping did cause defects. Btw. I prefer good old leaded solder, but leaded solder in Germany isn't allowed anymore. We should start to wire-wrap all electronic devices for our politicians here :p. Wire-wrapping... *hehe* For my university project (some puny 15 years ago ;-), I decided to have some serious fun, and designed a MIDI synthesizer around a 68HC11, a battery backed RAM, some EEPROM and three 8580 (newer SID) chips. 700 pins, all wire-wrapped. And it even worked! :-) Actually, it's quite swift and effective method; it's the cutting and stripping of the wires that's a PITA, unless you have a really good tool - which I didn't at the time! :-D The quality of the wrapped connection depended on two items. First was the quality and corner sharpness of the pins, and there were some real crap out there being sold by name brands I won't mention, and the color of the wire. The red wires colored dye would eat the wire in two in 5 years time. It was the same dye that caused the wholesale failures of millions of mike cords on cow barn radios back in the day. The copper of the wire turned ugly brown and it got so brittle that it was not repairable. I started shopping around looking for a suitable replacement cable, and experimented with quite a few that claimed _their_ dyes didn't do that, but they all lied, a lot. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Dr. Jekyll had something to Hyde. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 05:01:58 am Tim E. Real did opine: On December 14, 2010 10:04:10 pm Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Wed, 2010-12-15 at 02:47 +, Harry Van Haaren wrote: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: A lot of people do, but perhaps they do it for mails that anyway are in public, e.g. to correspond to mailing lists. Anybody know of a public email provider that is better? Or more so: that can prove they are better? Open to suggestions :-) -Harry An evasive answer: For a while I used OpenPGP for emails ;). Perhaps all autistics and savants able to do prime factorization are only working for Google and no other provider or even intelligence services :D. Ha. Good one. But really, should we all be using some form of it? I did for a while. I notice some folks here use it, some don't. KMail always says unknown (I think we have to share keys). Would it be better for LAD? Does it matter? Will it, soon, the way things are going? Big brother is the corporations. I used to be able to claim a prize in a bag of potato chips by walking in to any store and handing over a ticket. Now I must 'register' on-line. This technology we use is a delicate dance between convenience and security, but I don't like what I'm seeing transpire these days... Here, our gov created a national do not call list, which we could join and telemarketers would not be allowed to call us, if we said so. People flocked to the list! Then the gov sold the list to some marketing group. Ugh... Tim. Ralf I suspect, if he were to use pgp, would be like me, and only trust pgp-2.6.2a, the last one before they put Zimmerman in jail for a few years. I have often said, and have been called the uber paranoid for it, that one of the conditions of his release was that the next generation of pgp had a back door. Denials out the yang are always instantaneous, but none of them came from Pete, so I have no choice but to conclude he is under NDA as the price of his freedom. So I figure the lack of compatibility of modern versions means I might as well use plain text anyway. My views aren't secret anyway if you read my sig. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Knowledge without common sense is folly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 05:36:25 pm f...@kokkinizita.net did opine: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 05:14:56AM -0500, gene heskett wrote: Ralf I suspect, if he were to use pgp, would be like me, and only trust pgp-2.6.2a, the last one before they put Zimmerman in jail for a few years. I have often said, and have been called the uber paranoid for it, that one of the conditions of his release was that the next generation of pgp had a back door. PZ was never put in jail. He was investigated for illegal export of 'munitions', but the US government dropped the case after some years without any charges being filed. Ciao, Fons, no dis-respect intended, but I was there, observing closely, sitting behind the keyboard of a full house supercharged amiga back in those years. He did do 2 or 3 years. Don't forget, this is a prime example of that old saw about history being written by the winners, so the whole thing may have been white washed to a high polish by now. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) All generalizations are false, including this one. -- Mark Twain ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 05:44:12 pm Dan Kegel did opine: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 3:03 AM, Dan Kegel d...@kegel.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Harry Van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: Anybody know of a public email provider that is better? Or more so: that can prove they are better? I'm afraid every webmail provider in the world is going to have the same basic problem: you shouldn't be trusting other people with your data. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/12/breaking-news-eff-victory-appeals- court-holds is a ray of hope, though... Yes it is. Now, if we can just get a law that when I have pulled the msg to my machine, and issued the delete to the server, it truly was deleted, then they would need a search warrant to my machine in order to see yesterdays emails already pulled. The move has been to make the ISP's hold those supposedly deleted messages till the statutes run out, and TBT, there probably isn't an ISP on the planet with THAT much storage, not without treating it like an unfunded mandate. Which it sure is. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Even God lends a hand to honest boldness. -- Menander ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 05:51:45 pm Jörn Nettingsmeier did opine: On 12/15/2010 11:14 AM, gene heskett wrote: Ralf I suspect, if he were to use pgp, would be like me, and only trust pgp-2.6.2a, the last one before they put Zimmerman in jail for a few years. I have often said, and have been called the uber paranoid for it, that one of the conditions of his release was that the next generation of pgp had a back door. as they say, paranoia doesn't mean they're not after you! :-D i think this problem is mitigated somewhat by using open protocols with open crypto implementations that have undergone public scrutiny. unless you want to believe that the NSA has quantum computers anyway and have solved the entire problem space years ago :) Not NASA, FBI. There are reports of 2 or 3 guys witnessing their machinery busting a post 2.6.2a PGP's key in 30 seconds. No clue if that passes the snope's sniff test or not, could be nothing more than propaganda to discourage its use too. It is still a problem for some methods though, just look at all the hoorah about R.I.M. a few months ago, and I doubt their encryption is even equal to a 256 bit PGP key. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) A little experience often upsets a lot of theory. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 07:32:11 pm Paul Davis did opine: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:42 PM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Fons, no dis-respect intended, but I was there, observing closely, sitting behind the keyboard of a full house supercharged amiga back in those years. He did do 2 or 3 years. �Don't forget, this is a prime example of that old saw about history being written by the winners, so the whole thing may have been white washed to a high polish by now. if so, they appear to have wiped google (and wikipedia) clean too. there is no record that i can find of zimmerman ever spending time in prison for PGP. And I have to admit a failure myself at this late date. His home page makes good reading today, but put a extra n on the end of his name. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) There is one difference between a tax collector and a taxidermist -- the taxidermist leaves the hide. -- Mortimer Caplan ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 07:34:43 pm Folderol did opine: On Wed, 15 Dec 2010 17:51:20 -0500 Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:42 PM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Fons, no dis-respect intended, but I was there, observing closely, sitting behind the keyboard of a full house supercharged amiga back in those years. He did do 2 or 3 years. Don't forget, this is a prime example of that old saw about history being written by the winners, so the whole thing may have been white washed to a high polish by now. if so, they appear to have wiped google (and wikipedia) clean too. there is no record that i can find of zimmerman ever spending time in prison for PGP. They seem to have wiped my memory as well. Also, I was under the impression his first name was Phil, not Pete. A slip of a mind suffering from flash wearout syndrome? It has been around 76 years now, and I realized the mistake _after_ I hit the send button. It wasn't the first time, and if I wake up in the morning, likely won't be the last. ;-) -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) There is one difference between a tax collector and a taxidermist -- the taxidermist leaves the hide. -- Mortimer Caplan ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 07:38:50 pm Paul Davis did opine: On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 5:14 AM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: Ralf I suspect, if he were to use pgp, would be like me, and only trust pgp-2.6.2a, the last one before they put Zimmerman in jail for a few years. I have often said, and have been called the uber paranoid for it, that one of the conditions of his release was that the next generation of pgp had a back door. �Denials out the yang are always instantaneous, but none of them came from Pete, so I have no choice but to conclude he is under NDA as the price of his freedom. Wrong also: Q: I heard a rumor that you cut a deal with the US Government to put a back door in PGP in order to not be prosecuted for publishing PGP. Is this true? Come on, you can tell me, I won't tell anyone, I promise. A: You heard wrong. No, I didn't cut any deals, and would not have done so even if it was the only way to stay out of prison. But I didn't have to negotiate with them at all. After a three year criminal investigation, they did not indict me, because we beat them. This is from his own website: http://www.philzimmermann.com/EN/faq/index.html paranoia will only get you so far gene :) True, but what his own page says now, does not match the emails flying around about it back in the day. Unforch, to be able to back that up, I would have to have an email corpus that goes back farther than the 2002 date, when I had a crashed drive and lost everything I didn't have stored on the CoCo3's hard drive. That goes clear back to the Princeton days of the coco mailing list, but that stops in about 91 when I switched to an amiga, and that whole decade vaporized in drive crash after drive crash. So lets wrap it up and say that Phil's web page is correct. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You have a deep interest in all that is artistic. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:44:41 pm Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Wed, 2010-12-15 at 17:42 -0500, gene heskett wrote: history being written by the winners, so the whole thing may have been white washed to a high polish by now. People who put their telephone handset into a thingy to be able to do data telecommunication, before there was the Internet for public, tend to be more sceptic/paranoid than youngsters ;). Never did that. My first modem was a 120 baud device, but it was wired. Hooked up to the precursor to the coco3 I'm running right now, in the basement, logged into it over a serial port using minicom on this linux box. The reason for this is, that at that time, we might be hackers our self. I guess we can't compare the easy hacking that was possible at C64 times (or Amiga ;), with today data protection :D. The amiga is actually fairly late model here folks, I started with a quest super elf I built from a kit. Circa '77. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) LILO, you've got me on my knees! -- David Black, dbl...@pilot.njin.net, with apologies to Derek and the Dominos, and Werner Almsberger ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:50:13 pm Jens M Andreasen did opine: On Wed, 2010-12-15 at 19:45 -0500, gene heskett wrote: ... but what his own page says now, does not match the emails flying around about it back in the day. Unforch, to be able to back that up, I would have to have an email corpus that goes back farther than the 2002 date, when I had a crashed drive and lost everything .. Ironically, if you had had your precious data in the cloud rather than on your own computer, this would not have happened. :-D [jma runs away and hides behind his mother] I would too, after that one. ;-) If you think your data is safe in the cloud, I have a bridge in Sun City AZ I'd like to list for sale. Safe maybe, private? Donbesilly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) I invented skydiving in 1989! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [OT] Richard Stallman warns against ChromeOS
On Tuesday, December 14, 2010 03:57:42 pm Paul Davis did opine: On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 3:28 PM, gene heskett ghesk...@wdtv.com wrote: On Tuesday, December 14, 2010 03:27:37 pm Victor Lazzarini did opine: Stallman hitting the mainstream news: http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/dec/14/chrome-os-richa rd -stallman-warning He's right. i agree, but how many of us use gmail? Frantically waving hand here, but I am slowly weaning myself from that teat. Its more damned trouble than its worth, and you can quote me on that. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) A great nation is any mob of people which produces at least one honest man a century. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] panning thoughts
On Friday, November 12, 2010 11:43:42 am Eric Kampman did opine: On Nov 12, 2010, at 1:40 AM, Jens M Andreasen wrote: On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 20:22 -0800, Eric Kampman wrote: Since power is proportional to signal squared, this means .. .. L(t) = cos(t * pi / 2) and R(t) = cos((1 - t) * pi / 2) I think you misspelled one sin(), no? No, turns out the 2nd equation is equivalent to sin(t * pi / 2) I think. And is computationally less expensive if you drop the pi / 2 and use pi * 0.5 as mulls cost less than divs. Or at least this is true if its not handed off to an FP processor. ;-) It is a complex mul you really want - where L+R is the real and L-R is the imaginary. You can have the sin/cos pair very cheaply by using an LFO that works by rotating iself by some complex constant. Great idea. Will use. Thanks. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Don't get suckered in by the comments -- they can be terribly misleading. Debug only code. -- Dave Storer ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Paul's Extreme Sound Stretch
On Friday, October 01, 2010 04:05:37 pm Folderol did opine: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:51:29 +1000 Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com wrote: Folderol wrote: Also, he must be getting on a bit now ... at least in his thirties :P Ageism lives I see. I'm in my mid 40s and I still have a passion for coding. I don't do as much audio coding as I used to but I am a significant contributor to the DDC compiler: http://trac.haskell.org/ddc/ Erik Did you not notice the ':P' ? FWIW I'm in my 60's so lets have less lip from you young pups :) And I have about a decade on you, I'll be 76 Monday. ;-) Sheesh, no respect for the elders here. ;-P -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) A memorandum is written not to inform the reader, but to protect the writer. -- Dean Acheson ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Paul's Extreme Sound Stretch
On Friday, October 01, 2010 05:12:54 pm Philipp Überbacher did opine: Excerpts from gene heskett's message of 2010-10-01 22:07:28 +0200: On Friday, October 01, 2010 04:05:37 pm Folderol did opine: On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 09:51:29 +1000 Erik de Castro Lopo mle...@mega-nerd.com wrote: Folderol wrote: Also, he must be getting on a bit now ... at least in his thirties :P Ageism lives I see. I'm in my mid 40s and I still have a passion for coding. I don't do as much audio coding as I used to but I am a significant contributor to the DDC compiler: http://trac.haskell.org/ddc/ Erik Did you not notice the ':P' ? FWIW I'm in my 60's so lets have less lip from you young pups :) And I have about a decade on you, I'll be 76 Monday. ;-) Sheesh, no respect for the elders here. ;-P I'm 26 now, and I think it's really great that people like you, 50 years older and almost the age of my grandfather, take part in all of this stuff. Everyone has his share of experience, and I believe every generation can learn a bit from every other generation. Guys of your age have a little more experience and stories to share, and I really appreciate this. It's especially great that you manage to keep up with technology and all of the related stuff. I know at least one person who's 90+ and very healthy and active, but her understanding of technology is near zero. For me, people that age taking part of all this kind of stuff is incredible, and it's also highly appreciated. There are plenty of things we young folks can learn. Thanks for the flowers, and I do share a story now and then, based on 45+ years as a broadcast engineer, 25 of them as the Chief Engineer, spread over 2 tv stations and a radio station. But I try to make the story's related apply to the subject of the message here that got my attention. On any mailing list, random data, no matter how good, is often considered as noise. Regards, Philipp ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) poverty, n.: An unfortunate state that persists as long as anyone lacks anything he would like to have. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Attenuation of sounds in 3D space
On Thursday, July 29, 2010 08:52:04 am Jörn Nettingsmeier did opine: john, On 07/29/2010 02:35 PM, JohnLM wrote: On 2010.07.28. 22:06, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: Compared to conventional 5.1 pairwise panning the result will be more even, without emphasising the speaker locations as would be the case otherwise. In other words, the sound will be much less seem to originate in the speakers. I stumbled on your own AMB-Plugins. :) They seem to do pretty much what I need. Mono-B-Format panner provides only angle controls. yes. panning is only concerned with angle of incidence, whether in ambisonics, VBAP, or pair-wise stereo. So from what I can understand, if I apply doppler effect, distance attenuation and other pre-process filters to a mono input and then push it through the panner plugin I get fairly correct representation of sound in 3D space. Right? depending on what you mean by fairly correct, representation, and 3D space :-D doppler would come into play only if you change the distance of the sound, not when you move it on the sphere, as the distance remains constant. This use of 'doppler' I would call incorrect, because the doppler shift is a shift in the apparent frequency of the sound rising at it approaches, and decreasing as it leaves. I'm sure you have a term for what you mean, but doppler isn't it. That police officers radar gun measures your speed by listening to the echo from your vehicle, and comparing it to the signal its sending, which to simplify, results in a beat frequency which is exactly your speed if approaching or departing exactly to or from the radar guns position. That is why it is often called doppler radar the weather guys us it also. Because they don't stand directly in front of you to take a reading, there is some small vector error in your favor. Someone else was trying to describe the distance vs square law change in the apparent volumes. So let me try from the broadcast engineering field to explain that better. Imagine a point src of energy, be it light, sound, or other radiation such as a radio or tv signal. Measured at distance x, you will get your reference signal, call it 0 db in this case. Now, without changing anything else move your measuring instrument to a point that is now at a distance of 2x. You don't get half the signal, but 1/4 of it, because the same energy that was hitting a square of any arbitrary measurement, say a square inch, has in addition to being spread twice as wide at distance 2x, it is also twice as high. So the new reading will be -6 db compared to the original '0' db. That is why we call it the square law. The only way to get that back is to make the receptor itself 4 times bigger. But while I have observed that there are quite wide variations in ears, I have not seen an individual with expandable ears (yet) :) when you hand-craft distance cues, you should not expect wonders for sounds originating inside your sphere of speakers. travelling through the center quickly can be made to work, though. I failed to find anything discussing mixing in AMB. Can I just sum the channels of all sounds, like I would do it to any direct-speaker-to-channel formats? yes. that's a fundamental property of all linear systems, and independent of the signal representation. i've written a little howto for ambi mixing in ardour a while ago, maybe you'll find it useful: http://cec.concordia.ca/econtact/11_3/nettingsmeier_ambisonics.html for lac2010, i tried to find out how ambisonic mixing can be applied to a pop production: http://stackingdwarves.net/public_stuff/linux_audio/lac2010/Field%20Repo rt-A_Pop_production_in_Ambisonics.pdf best, jörn ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) I call them as I see them. If I can't see them, I make them up. -- Biff Barf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Attenuation of sounds in 3D space
On Thursday, July 29, 2010 11:02:19 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: [...] When I'm in the cinema I sometimes notice unbearable phasing, while a sound is panned from one 2D position to the other, this isn't a Doppler effect, but an issue regarding to transit time or something else. IMO out of phase vs detune. This I expect, would be an artifact of the usual pan pot, precisely because that pan pot doesn't also put in the phase shifts one normally hears in the real world. For that reason alone, I detest the use of the pan pot on a dynamic basis as an audio editing tool. It simply doesn't do it all, whereas the moving source does. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Everything should be built top-down, except the first time. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Saturday, July 24, 2010 09:56:32 am Jörn Nettingsmeier did opine: On 07/22/2010 11:44 PM, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: Extrapolating a bit, that is one of the reasons why an unamplified singer in an opera theatre can have a dramatic effect that is much stronger than someone yelling into a microphone and being amplified to 130 dB SPL. By which I don't want to imply that amplified music is wrong in any sense. *anything* at 130 dB SPL is wrong in any sense. :p My personal limit is about 120. If its loud enough to hurt, it is hurting, and I have gotten up and left many a night club because the music was too loud. I wore out the first 3 rifle barrels at the target range before one could buy decent ear muffs, and most of whats on the market today don't have the protection required. I consider 30db a minimum. So now, 45 years later I have what are called Carhart Notches in my hearing, 120 db deep at 4 khz. I blew the hearing tester away when she was checking me a while back, she was at full scale with the test tone at 4 khz but all I could hear was the circuits white noise. Which I heard quite easily. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. -- Vince Lombardi, football coach ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Saturday, July 24, 2010 10:08:34 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 10:52 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 10:37 +0200, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: On 07/22/2010 11:44 PM, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: Extrapolating a bit, that is one of the reasons why an unamplified singer in an opera theatre can have a dramatic effect that is much stronger than someone yelling into a microphone and being amplified to 130 dB SPL. By which I don't want to imply that amplified music is wrong in any sense. *anything* at 130 dB SPL is wrong in any sense. :p No, I wish to listen to the opera at the other mountaintop. Regarding to the German wiki about SPL, the pain threshold is at 134 dB at the ear. Assumed the opera house is at another mountaintop or in the valley, even 130 dB could be a little bit to less power. ;D I know it's idiotic, OTOH when do we ever wish to have knowledge about objective 'twice as loud'? Did anybody ever thought 'shit, I need to mix the snare objectively half as loud, but I don't know what's the correct level'? I wondered about that myself. I got stuck mixing for KISS one labor day in the late 70's. All I got for tutorial was which mic/instrument was which knob on the snakes panel that Gene brought to the me in the control room at KIVA-TV in Farmington NM, telling me which jack to get my air audio from. That snake panel was about as homemade as could be. And Gene said if it sounded good to me, it probably was. So I set the axe drums to hit zero to plus 2, the voices and guitar at about -2 to 0. I recorded about 10 minutes worth and invited Gene into listen to the air check during the NBC portion of the telethon and he was pleased. They were on the road, between shows and had a few hours to kill, so they stopped and volunteered to play music during the local break times for about 4 hours. All were in the famous KISS war paint, which was a little streaked because the local temps were in the low 100's and their bus had no air conditioning. And badly in need of a shower from the BO standpoint, but they did make some fine music for Jerry's Kids that day. Yeah, I mixed for KISS once. NBD. But it does make a nice line on my resume. ;-) -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool your Mom. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Saturday, July 24, 2010 12:02:40 pm Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 17:22 +0200, Arnold Krille wrote: On Saturday 24 July 2010 16:22:29 Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 10:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: I have gotten up and left many a night club because the music was too loud. OT, but anyway: This is a big problem in Germany. I only visit night clubs when a girlfriend 'force' me to do it and I always wear hearing protection. Now it becomes topic again: At those high levels, I don't have any feeling for what could be half as loud. I only have an idea of 'half as loud', when the acoustic pressure doesn't hurt. That is because your ear shuts down with a bone bending to protect itself to anything above. That bending is what hurts... So you hearing goes into saturation for anything above that level. Which makes it quite hard to determine half as loud when you don't know how loud it really is... Have fun, Arnold So, without being aware of it, I know that I don't know the real loudness. Is it the same for everybody or just for people who have the feeling to protect their ears, resp. to get out of this loudness hell? A lot of people 'join' this hell. What's about those people? I think many of them use it as an anesthetic. - Ralf ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Ain't nothin' an old man can do for me but bring me a message from a young man. -- Moms Mabley ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] twice as loud
On Saturday, July 24, 2010 12:31:32 pm Renato did opine: On Sat, 24 Jul 2010 12:03:15 -0400 Gene Heskett gene.hesk...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, July 24, 2010 12:02:40 pm Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 17:22 +0200, Arnold Krille wrote: On Saturday 24 July 2010 16:22:29 Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2010-07-24 at 10:07 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: I have gotten up and left many a night club because the music was too loud. OT, but anyway: This is a big problem in Germany. I only visit night clubs when a girlfriend 'force' me to do it and I always wear hearing protection. Now it becomes topic again: At those high levels, I don't have any feeling for what could be half as loud. I only have an idea of 'half as loud', when the acoustic pressure doesn't hurt. That is because your ear shuts down with a bone bending to protect itself to anything above. That bending is what hurts... So you hearing goes into saturation for anything above that level. Which makes it quite hard to determine half as loud when you don't know how loud it really is... Have fun, Arnold So, without being aware of it, I know that I don't know the real loudness. Is it the same for everybody or just for people who have the feeling to protect their ears, resp. to get out of this loudness hell? A lot of people 'join' this hell. What's about those people? I think many of them use it as an anesthetic. yes, especially if coupled with drugs which seems to me to be an increasing trend renato And that, in and of itself, is a scathing indictment of our society today. People should not have to reduce themselves to an un-thinking, alcohol or drug addled state in order to 'have fun'. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) New Hampshire law forbids you to tap your feet, nod your head, or in any way keep time to the music in a tavern, restaurant, or cafe. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Attenuation of sounds in 3D space
On Thursday, July 22, 2010 01:07:57 pm f...@kokkinizita.net did opine: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:35:15AM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Chris Cannam can...@all-day-breakfast.com wrote: Question that just occurred to me. I'm very ignorant about spatial audio, and although I'm sure several of my colleagues could tell me this, I thought it might be sort of on-topic here. Is it possible, or easy, or sensible, or worthwhile, to reduce a B-format recording into stereo in multiple different ways in order to achieve different subjective listener position results when using headphones? my limited understanding is this: the B-format data encodes the source position relative to some defined point in space. the decoder can map the origin used to define the positional space however it wants to. whether or not any decoders actually offer any control over this is another matter. The first order B-format consists of four signals: W: equivalent to an 'omni' microphone, X,Y,Z: equivalent to figure-of-eight microphones pointing forward/back, left/right, and up/ down respectively. And interesting scenario, Fons. But it leads this simple minded broadcast engineer with 45 years experience to ask a question. 1. How are the signals brought into phase such that electronically, all mic ribbons or diaphragms seem to occupy the same space, just facing in different directions? If this is not addressed, then this will lead to some interesting comb filter effects if the signals are not kept from mixing, which they will of course do in the ear. Granted, the PV of sound in normal air would require separations of inches till the stuff above high C comes into play, but at the snares and cymbals frequencies, I would have to assume some coloration of the sound from this effect alone. And of course the same concern comes into play at the speakers since they are generally placed around the listener which in no way approximates the nearly single point reception these mics will hear. In my own mind, the placement of a PZ microphone in each of the places one would place the playback speakers would seem to be a superior method, at least for a listener sitting in the nominal center, who will be so overwhelmed by (supposedly not important sonically we are told) the phasing errors that he cannot single out a single largest cause for the lack of realism. In my history of electronic repairs for a living over the last 60+ years, one instance of truly hair raising realism took place when I was about 21, and working one of the service benches at Woodburn Sound in Iowa City IA, USA. I had bought some car parts at noon, and when I left about 6 for dinner, I forgot left them on the corner of the bench. Having a key to the back door I let myself into the back door about 8, which was pretty dark by then as only one 25 watt bulb out in the display area was on, and half way to the door to my bench area right in the door to the front, display room, the Dukes of Dixieland marched by, going right over me. It seems that Woody and Saul Marantz were out in front, had pulled a 2nd JBL Hartzfield speaker out of Saul's econoline van, setting it just inside the front door opposite to ours in the other front corner of the display floor, along with a Berlant/Concertone tape deck capable of running at 15 and 30 IPS. And the tape was the master that had cut the Dukes then current hit record, running at 30 ips. SNR was a good 70+ db, and there was no tape hiss audible unless you walked directly in front of the JBL 075 ring radiator tweeters that had been added to both our Hartzfield and to the one Saul was carrying around. No tone controls, and only a 30 watt Marantz stereo amp., those Hartzfields were then, and may be yet, the most efficient speakers ever made, never used more than 3 or 4 watts/channel to get SPL's that would have done Joshua's trumpets at Jericho proud. Truly a total immersion in the sound, from about 35hz to nearly 30khz. Those tweeters could do a fairly good job of reproducing a 25khz square wave. It took till I had been introduced to Saul Marantz and shook hands, and for that tape (on 14 NAB reels) to run out before the hair on the back of my neck was truly relaxed. Saul it turned out was an endless source of technical knowledge sprinkled with BTDT stories. And needless to say, I did not manage to get that hydromatic transmission I had just stick shifted back together till a day later. Yeah, I'm a JOAT. :) -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The cost of living is going up, and the chance of living is going down. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org
Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC
On Monday, July 19, 2010 02:28:56 pm drew Roberts did opine: On Sunday 18 July 2010 11:14:26 Gene Heskett wrote: Scary thought to an old country music fan. ;-) Who do you like? My dad was a fan and was always playing it around the house as well as taking us on trips to the opry and what not. John Cash was the best, but his brother Tommy whom I have also met a couple of times is a long way down the list. And of course I'll be in love with Loretta Lynn for the rest of my days. The favorite list however, is quite long so I won't bore this list with it. Some of his tastes rubbed off on me. drew ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Actually, what I'd like is a little toy spaceship!! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC
On Sunday, July 18, 2010 09:25:27 am Ralf Mardorf did opine: On Sun, 2010-07-18 at 11:14 +0200, f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 10:56:47PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote: Some lubricant obviously made its way in there, and one would have to assume that the switched current was sufficient to cause a microscopic arcing, which will in time create a smoke film on the internals, which is what you were measuring, and which caused the PSU to think the button was pressed full time. Lubricants are a good idea only on a circuit that can be called a dry circuit, where dry=microamp currents at very low voltages. Ah, yes, these plastic things are often lubricated. Washing it out with acetone was ok, but I would probably have reached for a can of paint thinning alcohol as it is less likely to degrade the plastics. I know, but the acetone was all I had available... Ciao, Fruit acids or pure alcohols are effective and relatively harmless, but most effective are products by chemical companies, there are cleaners with qualities comparable to penetrating oil, but made to fit to electrical properties. Those cleaners will clean, resp. repair and protect. True for the most part, but please do not place the common Freon TF in that category when magnetic media is involved. 15 years ago at the tv station, I got tired of paying for Freon-TF by the gallon, and cleaning the heads on all our VCR's 2-4x daily, and tried cleaning one with paint thinner alcohol from ACE Hardware. I didn't have to clean it again for a week! So I switched cleaning agents on the spot. And it turned out that Freon-TF was also much harder on the elastomer parts like pinch rollers. I cut the time spent cleaning heads and rollers by 90%. Roller replacements went way down too. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Humor in the Court: Q. Doctor, did you say he was shot in the woods? A. No, I said he was shot in the lumbar region. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC
On Sunday, July 18, 2010 10:47:23 am drew Roberts did opine: On Saturday 17 July 2010 22:59:51 Gene Heskett wrote: On Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:59:08 pm drew Roberts did opine: On Saturday 17 July 2010 17:17:05 Ralf Mardorf wrote: Debouncing and live time of switches always is a gambling game. Makes me remember key debouncing issues with the TRS-80 Model I keyboards... drew I think that should make both of us genuine old farts. :) I started in my mid to late teens but I am getting there. Thankfully. all the best, drew And I was in the 40's by then,, I'll be 76 in Oct, if this batch of fencepost holes don't finish me first. A type 2 Diabetic, my warranty expired 30 years ago. ;-) -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) A farmer is a man outstanding in his field. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC
On Sunday, July 18, 2010 11:08:03 am Folderol did opine: On Sun, 18 Jul 2010 10:49:24 -0400 Gene Heskett gene.hesk...@gmail.com wrote: And I was in the 40's by then,, I'll be 76 in Oct, if this batch of fencepost holes don't finish me first. A type 2 Diabetic, my warranty expired 30 years ago. ;-) Woo! There's hope for the rest of us then :) I never doubted that for an instant. There are some real brains on this list. If osmosis still worked on this old wet ram, I might actually learn something. Sometimes this audio scene reminds me of a 'Marge' cartoon I have on the wall, which says Just think, in 40 years we'll have all these tatooed old lady's running around, and Rap Music will be the golden oldies Scary thought to an old country music fan. ;-) -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You've got to think about tomorrow! TOMORROW! I haven't even prepared for *_yesterday* yet! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC
On Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:47:58 pm f...@kokkinizita.net did opine: Hello all, Early this week one of the three 'rendering' PCs of the WFS system in the Sala Bianca failed. It just appeared completely dead and didn't even try to boot when the power button was pressed, but the standby power (for the network interface) was available. I suspected the power supply, so ordered a new one which arrived two days ago. Installed it and things worked again. But now comes the interesting part. While installing the new PS, I also disconnected the wires to the power button, and to test I just used a screwdriver to short the two pins that normally connect to it. But when I reconnected the power button the PC switched off after a few seconds. So it seemed as if the power button was permanently being pressed. I again installed the old PS, and things worked as long as the power button was not connected. Measuring the power button switch with a multimeter showed an unstable resistance value of between 1 and 3k while it was not pressed. So I removed the thing, which turned out to be a cheap miniature switch, a little cube of around 8 mm size. I opened and disassembled it, and noticed that the contacts had some black dirt on them. Cleaned with aceton and reassembled, and things worked perfectly again. What I don't understand is how the contacts got so dirty. If a resistance of a few kOhm is enough to make it look as a closed contact then it can't be handling large currents, so there should not be any arcing. And the construction of the thing is such that it is virtually closed, no dust or whatever could ever creep in. Still it's quite sobering that this cheap 0.30 Euro thing was capable of bringing down a 1600 Euro workstation... Who would suspect a switch to fail in this way ? Ciao, Some lubricant obviously made its way in there, and one would have to assume that the switched current was sufficient to cause a microscopic arcing, which will in time create a smoke film on the internals, which is what you were measuring, and which caused the PSU to think the button was pressed full time. Lubricants are a good idea only on a circuit that can be called a dry circuit, where dry=microamp currents at very low voltages. Washing it out with acetone was ok, but I would probably have reached for a can of paint thinning alcohol as it is less likely to degrade the plastics. Yup, I am a C.E.T., with 60 years of that sort of trouble shooting. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) God is subtle, but he is not malicious. -- Albert Einstein ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [Somewhat OT] Strange failure mode of a PC
On Saturday, July 17, 2010 10:59:08 pm drew Roberts did opine: On Saturday 17 July 2010 17:17:05 Ralf Mardorf wrote: Debouncing and live time of switches always is a gambling game. Makes me remember key debouncing issues with the TRS-80 Model I keyboards... drew I think that should make both of us genuine old farts. :) ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Win98 is called Win98 because 98% of all hardware components will need driver updates. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [Fwd: Re: No nagging, a serious question]
On Sunday 04 July 2010, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: On Sun, 2010-07-04 at 22:16 +0100, Dan Mills wrote: You could probably hack a multi serial port card to do multiple midi ports (Change the rock to give a suitable divider for 31250 baud (4MHz?), add current loop interfaces)... Been there, done that - when I was a penniless dole-scrounging scruffy university drop-out living on a farm in the middle of nowhere, I decided I needed a MIDI sequencer. So, I modified an old serial card with a 4MHz crystal which divides to 31250 baud, and wrote a simple tracker-style sequencer in a mixture of C and assembler on DOS. It worked, kind of. If you wanted to do anything really wild like change the tempo you needed to recompile. Gordon MM0YEQ As for the serial card with a different crystal, BTDT, on a TRS-80 Color Computer 3. Not only that, but the software, Ultimuse-III, written by Mike Knudsen could handle the serial card and the bitbanger at the same time, so I actually had 2 ports and drove two different midi keyboards each with their own midi voice assignments. This on a machine with 60 ticks/second IRQ's for a clock. And neither port had any extra added buffers, it Just Worked(TM). -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter
On Saturday 03 July 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-02 at 14:51 -0700, Niels Mayer wrote: sudo alsa-midi-latency-test -w 20 -r -R -i 36:0 -o 36:0 Perhaps better without sudo. Probably, as that will test the user environment. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Q: What do you call the scratches that you get when a female sheep bites you? A: Ewe nicks. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter
On Friday 02 July 2010, Paul Davis wrote: On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Adrian Knoth a...@drcomp.erfurt.thur.de wrote: On Thu, Jul 01, 2010 at 07:43:38PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: [...] You're both missing an argument after -w. I wonder (but haven't checked the source) why the tool even starts when you don't provide the value for the wait time. New results: sudo /usr/bin/alsa-midi-latency-test -w 20 -r -R -i 20:0 -o 20:0 Hmm, I'm on mdv-2010-x64 at the moment, what package would I find this test utility in? Thanks. -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The man who can smile when something goes wrong has thought of someone he can blame it on -- Fundamental Law of Thermodynamics n�3 ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] [64studio-users] MIDI jitter
On Thursday 01 July 2010, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 14:27 +0200, Adrian Knoth wrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 06:20:30PM -0700, Niels Mayer wrote: What's interesting to note is that most of the USB MIDI interfaces do not have consistent latency (Other than the Roland UM2's consistent Let me just show you the result from my Midisport USB 2x2 (standard edition when it was still produced by midiman, not the anniversary edition): set_realtime_priority(SCHED_FIFO, 20).. done. clock resolution: 0.1 s latency distribution: ... 3.1 - 3.2 ms:1 # ... 3.9 - 4.0 ms:1 # 4.0 - 4.1 ms: 9903 ## ... 5.0 - 5.1 ms: 95 # SUCCESS best latency was 3.13 ms worst latency was 5.00 ms, which is great. This is a vanilla 2.6.34 kernel, no realtime patches, no nothing. a...@hex:~$ cat /proc/asound/timers G0: system timer : 4000.000us (1000 ticks) P0-0-0: PCM playback 0-0-0 : SLAVE P0-0-1: PCM capture 0-0-1 : SLAVE P0-1-0: PCM playback 0-1-0 : SLAVE P0-1-1: PCM capture 0-1-1 : SLAVE P0-2-1: PCM capture 0-2-1 : SLAVE Not even HR timers. And yes, this is SMP, and yes, I have the ondemand cpu governor, that is, the evil frequency scaling and the lot. Put simply, it's a plain Debian unstable system, no latency tuning at all. Ok, 4ms are not strikingly fast, but it's acceptable and shouldn't matter in praxis. Especially I don't see any noteworthy jitter. I'm going to measure the mainline kernels from 2.6.26 to 2.6.34 within the next days to see if this stability can be accounted to the parts of the RT patch that have been integrated into mainline. If this hypothesis is correct, I should see a lot of jitter with older kernels. I'll also try to compare it against an onboard MPU-401, a firewire based device and one or two more USB solutions. Long story short: Seems things are not black (USB) and white (PCI). I'll test PCI as soon as possible too. Btw. while ports from other computers and my whole MIDI hardware is able to use my 80ies self-made MIDI thru box, the level of the USB MIDI's output is to weak to do it (I didn't re-adjust the thru box). Could it be, that a weak level has impact to the interpretation of the slew rate, Yes, but this is not the cause of the latency you are looking for. And yes, the current capabilities of the drivers should be brought up to specs to make sure the data doesn't get a scrambled bit occasionally. regarding to high and low? Of course without using this box, because it won't work, I'm thinking of connecting the IOs of the USB MIDI and running the ALSA latency test. Which, because there is the 10ms worst case latency of USB inherent in the standards and connection, will probably show worst cases of at least that. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Save energy: Drive a smaller shell. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] remember ??
On Wednesday 23 June 2010, Tim E. Real wrote: On June 22, 2010 04:12:50 pm f...@kokkinizita.net wrote: Hello all, those of you who attended LAC2009 will recognise the Sala Bianca and lovely metal girl Giorgia: http://www.youtube.com/user/WinterHaze01 Enjoy ! Wow, this girl rocks! No, I mean really rocks! I'm sitting watching enjoying this video, and all of a sudden - and earthquake tremor hits, rocking our whole house violently for a few minutes ! (Ottawa 1:30pm). And I thought all these computer audio conferences played was cheesy tasteless made-with-C64 synth pop. Wow, gonna have to attend some day... To Gene: I had the same problem, no audio in Firefox. So I completely disabled Pulse. That seems to have cured it. Or else it was this: Make sure ALSA is not mixing up the order of your audio devices, which it has a *terrible* habit of doing randomly from day-to-day. (How to stop that ???) Make sure the first device is the actual desired audio output device. Tim. There was no reboot or anything else that might have done that. Snilmerg maybe? -- Cheers, Gene There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Carrots work on rabbits, they don't work on hungry weasels. - Alan Cox on linux-kernel ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
