Re: SSD drives
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:46 AM, shimi linux...@shimi.net wrote: I really don't think so. SSDs (IMHO) makes computer much faster due to the VERY low seek time - the time it takes you to get a block. Compare 10-20ms with ~0.1ms. A regular hard drive simply wastes a lost of time seeking the data, instead of... reading it :) Absolutely correct. However, there is a tiny fraction of the seek time that is not always a waste, and I think it is worth mentioning. There is, I believe, a consideration that is usually overlooked when SSDs are considered for server use, including a desktop that is used as a server, which is why I am mentioning it here. In a server, magnetic disk rotation - or, rather the air turbulence generated between the rotating disk and its enclosure - is the only source of entropy that makes random numbers random (seek times have a tiny random component due to the turbulence, and it is captured). This does not apply to SSDs, and as a result your security may be compromised (attacks exploiting not very random RNGs are well known). In a laptop or a desktop entropy is also generated by keyboard and mouse (which may or may not be good enough). In a server that hardly applies. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | p...@goldshmidt.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: A funny thing happend to me tonight.
Do you see a text screen with a *text* cursor or a *mouse* cursor? If it's the former, I can't see how this could be KDE or Gnome related... No, I see a black screen with a working X windows mouse cursor. Try looking in /var/log for any X server messages, or try to run X yourself (startx) to see if you can see any hints of what's wrong. In xsession-errors I found the problem. Sometime in 12.04's maintenance a bug was introduced to Gnome on Intel GMA-950 video cards. It was not in the 12.10 release, but was propagated between Wednesday when I installed it, and Saturday night when I upgraded it. It runs of of space somewhere, the diagnostic message makes it look like disk space but it is in the video card itself. Although the bugs filed are for Gnome, using KDM and KDE did not fix it. Since I had made a backup before I ran the update, I restored my system and it works fine. I won't be upgrading again for a while. Meanwhile, any suggestions for a more stable distro. This, Dotan, is the reason why I said NO ONE can warranty that Linux, especially UBUNTU will run on a computer. While I don't think anyone sells GMA 950's any more, I would not be surprised if this bug also affects other Intel display chip drivers. If it is the case and you had bought 4 computers last week after testing them with the UBUNTU (or any variant of it) live CD, and installed it on them today, you would have 4 useless computers and or a big headache. :-( Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician. (sent to me by a friend) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: A funny thing happend to me tonight.
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson In xsession-errors I found the problem. Sometime in 12.04's maintenance a bug was introduced to Gnome on Intel GMA-950 video cards. It was not in the 12.10 release, but was propagated between Wednesday when I installed it, and Saturday night when I upgraded it. It runs of of space somewhere, the diagnostic message makes it look like disk space but it is in the video card itself. Although the bugs filed are for Gnome, using KDM and KDE did not fix it. Please report that bug, Geoff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug/?no-redirect This, Dotan, is the reason why I said NO ONE can warranty that Linux, especially UBUNTU will run on a computer. I don't see how it is relevant. I didn't ask anyone to sell me a computer running Linux that will never have any userspace software issues. I asked a company which sells computer components which motherboard has components that are currently compatible with commonly-available Linux distros. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: A funny thing happend to me tonight.
Dotan Cohen wrote: Please report that bug, Geoff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug/?no-redirect It's already been reported. That's how I found out that it existed. I don't think I can document it with any useful information except that it worked on Wednesday and was dead on Saturday. Since I no longer have that system, I restored to a Friday backup, I can't look for anything. I don't see how it is relevant. I didn't ask anyone to sell me a computer running Linux that will never have any userspace software issues. I asked a company which sells computer components which motherboard has components that are currently compatible with commonly-available Linux distros. It's relevant IMHO because it goes against conventional wisdom. If you tried a live CD, if you did an install on one system, if you looked at the Hardware Compatibility Lists, if you just looked up the driver status of every bit of hardware on the computer, if you had rolled twelve sided dice and accepted anything above 7 on each of them, it would have been ok, but failed miserably if you installed them this morning. I'm not even sure it is a userspace issue. Before I gave up and went back to my working backup, I tried KDE. I got effectively the same results. I may of had something misconfigured at that point, but I can't tell anymore. I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, and apologize if you were or are offended in any way. I seriously do not think it is possible for a computer vendor, even the size of Ivory, to warrant that a computer you buy will run Linux. Ironicaly, I did buy the laptop in question from Ivory, almost 4 years ago to the day. In that time it has run Linux, Windows, BSD, occasionaly all at the same time. Although I have had to live with lots of features of UBUNTU, until last night it never failed to run. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician. (sent to me by a friend) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: A funny thing happend to me tonight.
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson geoffreymendel...@gmail.com wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: Please report that bug, Geoff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug/?no-redirect It's already been reported. That's how I found out that it existed. I don't think I can document it with any useful information except that it worked on Wednesday and was dead on Saturday. Since I no longer have that system, I restored to a Friday backup, I can't look for anything. I hope that you at lest clicked the Launchpad.net button for Also affects me as I do know that Canonical takes that seriously. I don't see how it is relevant. I didn't ask anyone to sell me a computer running Linux that will never have any userspace software issues. I asked a company which sells computer components which motherboard has components that are currently compatible with commonly-available Linux distros. It's relevant IMHO because it goes against conventional wisdom. If you tried a live CD, if you did an install on one system, if you looked at the Hardware Compatibility Lists, if you just looked up the driver status of every bit of hardware on the computer, if you had rolled twelve sided dice and accepted anything above 7 on each of them, it would have been ok, but failed miserably if you installed them this morning. I'm not even sure it is a userspace issue. Before I gave up and went back to my working backup, I tried KDE. I got effectively the same results. I may of had something misconfigured at that point, but I can't tell anymore. I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, and apologize if you were or are offended in any way. I seriously do not think it is possible for a computer vendor, even the size of Ivory, to warrant that a computer you buy will run Linux. Ironicaly, I did buy the laptop in question from Ivory, almost 4 years ago to the day. In that time it has run Linux, Windows, BSD, occasionaly all at the same time. Although I have had to live with lots of features of UBUNTU, until last night it never failed to run. I'm not offended, Geoff! I actually find your opinion very pragmatic even if I disagree. Now, if you tell me that my children are ugly and my dog is disobedient, I will be very much offended indeed! -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: A funny thing happend to me tonight.
The GMA950 was very problematic in the beginning and clearly still has it's issues. Generally intel graphics are very well supported however be aware that some of the new (or about to be released) intel CPUs will feature GPUs based on the powerVR architecture which has *lousy* support on linux (except on android in the binaries of the phones). Regards, Eliyahu - אליהו 2012/12/30 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 11:51 AM, Geoffrey S. Mendelson geoffreymendel...@gmail.com wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: Please report that bug, Geoff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug/?no-redirect It's already been reported. That's how I found out that it existed. I don't think I can document it with any useful information except that it worked on Wednesday and was dead on Saturday. Since I no longer have that system, I restored to a Friday backup, I can't look for anything. I hope that you at lest clicked the Launchpad.net button for Also affects me as I do know that Canonical takes that seriously. I don't see how it is relevant. I didn't ask anyone to sell me a computer running Linux that will never have any userspace software issues. I asked a company which sells computer components which motherboard has components that are currently compatible with commonly-available Linux distros. It's relevant IMHO because it goes against conventional wisdom. If you tried a live CD, if you did an install on one system, if you looked at the Hardware Compatibility Lists, if you just looked up the driver status of every bit of hardware on the computer, if you had rolled twelve sided dice and accepted anything above 7 on each of them, it would have been ok, but failed miserably if you installed them this morning. I'm not even sure it is a userspace issue. Before I gave up and went back to my working backup, I tried KDE. I got effectively the same results. I may of had something misconfigured at that point, but I can't tell anymore. I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, and apologize if you were or are offended in any way. I seriously do not think it is possible for a computer vendor, even the size of Ivory, to warrant that a computer you buy will run Linux. Ironicaly, I did buy the laptop in question from Ivory, almost 4 years ago to the day. In that time it has run Linux, Windows, BSD, occasionaly all at the same time. Although I have had to live with lots of features of UBUNTU, until last night it never failed to run. I'm not offended, Geoff! I actually find your opinion very pragmatic even if I disagree. Now, if you tell me that my children are ugly and my dog is disobedient, I will be very much offended indeed! -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: A funny thing happend to me tonight.
E.S. Rosenberg wrote: The GMA950 was very problematic in the beginning and clearly still has it's issues. I bought the laptop around Dec 31, 2008. It has most of the time run a BSD variant, but I have always had Windows XP and UBUNTU on it from the day I got it. Up until last night it has always worked (as far a graphics are concerned) perfectly on all three systems. As soon as I restored the Friday afternoon backup, it worked perfectly. It was from UBUNTU 12.10 installed Thursday. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM/KBUH7245/KBUW5379 Owning a smartphone: Technology's equivalent to learning to play chopsticks on the piano as a child and thinking you're a musician. (sent to me by a friend) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
hebrew (or arabic) transparency to call up when i forget key location?
i just found a nice feature in Unity (new to me at least): press and hold the special key for a semi-transparent overview of keyboard shortcuts, great for jogging the memory. such a transparency of the hebrew (and arabic) keyboard would help me learn to type in hebrew, as i have only english letters on my keycaps. does such a thing exist? if not, i'd like to make my own: hopefully i can find one already in source form and give it the correct properties, then figure out how to bind a key to display it. any thoughts appreciated. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: SSD drives
Lior, - Can you please specify vendor and model of your SSD drive ? second - which File System do you have on it ? DS On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Lior Okman l...@okman.name wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:26 AM, Dan Shimshoni danshi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2 Questions about SSD drives: First, I would appreciate of someone who has SSD disk will run hdparm -t /dev/sda and post the results here. (In the spirit of the recent thread about HW for linux). I have /dev/sda: Timing buffered disk reads: 586 MB in 3.01 seconds = 194.68 MB/sec And it interests me to compare results I have : hdparm -t /dev/sdc /dev/sdc: Timing buffered disk reads: 988 MB in 3.00 seconds = 329.27 MB/sec Does a result of, let's say, 400 MB/sec, which is double speed comparing the above result, will boost a task of building a linux kernel (on a dual core machine) in about 1.5 or 2? Second question: I must admit that I am a newbie with SSD, so this question might seem obvoious to others: I saw that inner SSD disks, which are sold in stores like KSP/Ivory, are in laptop form factor (2.5''). Is there some reason that there are no inner 3.5'' disks for Desktops (there are extenal SSD which can be , so I believe, used with desktops) ? Is there something which prevent us from connecting 2.5'' inner SSD to a desktop (I mean STAT2- based or SATA3-based) ? SATA connectors for 2.5 and 3.5 drives are the same (power as well as data). You can mount your 2.5 drive in a desktop, but if you don't have any 2.5 bays (which are available in some enclosures specifically for SSD drives), there are kits of 2.5 to 3.5 brakets you can buy (e.g., http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994085 ). DS ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: SSD drives
Thanks! Which File System do you have on your SSD, if I may ask ? DS On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:46 AM, shimi linux...@shimi.net wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:26 AM, Dan Shimshoni danshi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2 Questions about SSD drives: First, I would appreciate of someone who has SSD disk will run hdparm -t /dev/sda and post the results here. (In the spirit of the recent thread about HW for linux). I have /dev/sda: Timing buffered disk reads: 586 MB in 3.01 seconds = 194.68 MB/sec And it interests me to compare results An almost two years old Intel X25-E : # hdparm -t /dev/sda /dev/sda: Timing buffered disk reads: 714 MB in 3.01 seconds = 237.40 MB/sec # uname -a Linux matrix 3.6.2-gentoo #1 SMP PREEMPT Sun Oct 21 22:49:01 IST 2012 x86_64 AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 955 Processor AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux Does a result of, let's say, 400 MB/sec, which is double speed comparing the above result, will boost a task of building a linux kernel (on a dual core machine) in about 1.5 or 2? I really don't think so. SSDs (IMHO) makes computer much faster due to the VERY low seek time - the time it takes you to get a block. Compare 10-20ms with ~0.1ms. A regular hard drive simply wastes a lost of time seeking the data, instead of... reading it :) When you work with a lot of files, getting to the file fast makes a tremendous difference. This is similar to the reason why browsing websites which are close to you network-wise is much faster - even though the bandwidth you have is the same - the client/server latency due to the network affects the time it takes you to negotiate (compare to 'seek') with the server the content you want. The more objects you want, the higher the latency, the slower the site will load. This is why using CDNs and reducing the number of HTTP requests (e.g. by using CSS Sprites) - help a lot in speeding websites. Second question: I must admit that I am a newbie with SSD, so this question might seem obvoious to others: I saw that inner SSD disks, which are sold in stores like KSP/Ivory, are in laptop form factor (2.5''). Is there some reason that there are no inner 3.5'' disks for Desktops (there are extenal SSD which can be , so I believe, used with desktops) ? Hard Drives have a reason to be large - they have a platter that occupies space. If you reduce the platter size, you need to enlarge the density, or add more platters - which adds thickness, noise, heat, and lowers your MTBF. Electronics nowdays are small and doesn't need all that... There's no point in making a large chassis just for the purpose of a large chassis... Is there something which prevent us from connecting 2.5'' inner SSD to a desktop (I mean STAT2- based or SATA3-based) ? Not really. The SATA is the same. Your only issue is fixating the drive to your PC chassis. Some computer cases have a special place for 2.5 drives for SSD (like my Antec 1200). Alternatively there are 3.5-2.5 adapters. But learn from someone who made a mistake (me ;)) - check before you buy that they're compatible with the screws location of the SSD. HTH, -- Shimi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: SSD drives
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:36 PM, Dan Shimshoni danshi...@gmail.com wrote: Lior, - Can you please specify vendor and model of your SSD drive ? It's a 180Gb Intel 520 Series SSD with firmware version 400i. second - which File System do you have on it ? I have an ext4 filesystem on it. DS Lior On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:45 AM, Lior Okman l...@okman.name wrote: On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:26 AM, Dan Shimshoni danshi...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, 2 Questions about SSD drives: First, I would appreciate of someone who has SSD disk will run hdparm -t /dev/sda and post the results here. (In the spirit of the recent thread about HW for linux). I have /dev/sda: Timing buffered disk reads: 586 MB in 3.01 seconds = 194.68 MB/sec And it interests me to compare results I have : hdparm -t /dev/sdc /dev/sdc: Timing buffered disk reads: 988 MB in 3.00 seconds = 329.27 MB/sec Does a result of, let's say, 400 MB/sec, which is double speed comparing the above result, will boost a task of building a linux kernel (on a dual core machine) in about 1.5 or 2? Second question: I must admit that I am a newbie with SSD, so this question might seem obvoious to others: I saw that inner SSD disks, which are sold in stores like KSP/Ivory, are in laptop form factor (2.5''). Is there some reason that there are no inner 3.5'' disks for Desktops (there are extenal SSD which can be , so I believe, used with desktops) ? Is there something which prevent us from connecting 2.5'' inner SSD to a desktop (I mean STAT2- based or SATA3-based) ? SATA connectors for 2.5 and 3.5 drives are the same (power as well as data). You can mount your 2.5 drive in a desktop, but if you don't have any 2.5 bays (which are available in some enclosures specifically for SSD drives), there are kits of 2.5 to 3.5 brakets you can buy (e.g., http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817994085 ). DS ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: SSD drives
On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 7:37 PM, Dan Shimshoni danshi...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks! Which File System do you have on your SSD, if I may ask ? Note that this is unrelated to the hdparm benchmark, which was on the device, and not through the filesystem layer :) # mount | grep sda2 /dev/sda2 on / type ext4 (rw,noatime,data=ordered) # tune2fs -l /dev/sda2 tune2fs 1.42.6 (21-Sep-2012) Filesystem volume name: none Last mounted on: / Filesystem UUID: [redacted] Filesystem magic number: 0xEF53 Filesystem revision #:1 (dynamic) Filesystem features: has_journal ext_attr resize_inode dir_index filetype needs_recovery extent flex_bg sparse_super large_file huge_file uninit_bg dir_nlink extra_isize Filesystem flags: signed_directory_hash Default mount options:(none) Filesystem state: clean Errors behavior: Continue Filesystem OS type: Linux Inode count: 1937712 Block count: 7743330 Reserved block count: 387166 Free blocks: 618763 Free inodes: 1445964 First block: 0 Block size: 4096 Fragment size:4096 Reserved GDT blocks: 1022 Blocks per group: 32768 Fragments per group: 32768 Inodes per group: 8176 Inode blocks per group: 511 Flex block group size:16 Filesystem created: [redacted] Last mount time: Sun Dec 30 18:19:33 2012 Last write time: Sun Dec 30 18:19:33 2012 Mount count: 4 Maximum mount count: 30 Last checked: [redacted] Check interval: 15552000 (6 months) Next check after: [redacted] Lifetime writes: [redacted] Reserved blocks uid: 0 (user root) Reserved blocks gid: 0 (group root) First inode: 11 Inode size: 256 Required extra isize: 28 Desired extra isize: 28 Journal inode:8 First orphan inode: 279868 Default directory hash: half_md4 Directory Hash Seed: [redacted] Journal backup: inode blocks -- Shimi ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: SSD drives
It's a 180Gb Intel 520 Series SSD with firmware version 400i. ... I have an ext4 filesystem on it. Semi-OT: A word of friendly warning: I recently bricked a 120GB Intel 520 w/ the latest firmware (not sure if it was 400i) w/ ext4 on Fedora 17/x86_64. (Second bricked SSD in 12 months) A *very* short power shortage crept under my APC UPS and bricked the SSD. Amazingly enough, the power shortage didn't crash the machine - which continued working off the main HDD software RAID array. Luckily for me I rather distrust SSDs (see below) and use it as fast cache-of-sort, so I only lost a couple of hours of work. IMHO SSDs have one huge drawback: Unlike HDDs that can be partially recovered from more-or-less any type of damage by recovering data around bad sectors or replacing a fried controller board, SSDs complex write scheme and complex firmware usually means that any type of damage / firmware error / etc usually bricks it with more or less zero chance of getting the data back. On the top of that, we (as in all of us) have 40+ years worth of experience in predicting the life cycle (and death) of HDDs. There's far less information about the life cycle of SSDs. In short, backup. A lot. - Gilboa ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: hebrew (or arabic) transparency to call up when i forget key location?
Have you tried to see what happens when your layout is set to Hebrew/Arabic, if the feature is to help you know where the keys are then it should show in those languages when the keyboard is set to that layout. Though it may also be meant as a touch-screen feature allowing for easy super+[key] combinations where super is the only key on the touchscreen device, in which case it will only show English. Regards, Eliyahu - אליהו 2012/12/30 Michael Shiloh michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com: i just found a nice feature in Unity (new to me at least): press and hold the special key for a semi-transparent overview of keyboard shortcuts, great for jogging the memory. such a transparency of the hebrew (and arabic) keyboard would help me learn to type in hebrew, as i have only english letters on my keycaps. does such a thing exist? if not, i'd like to make my own: hopefully i can find one already in source form and give it the correct properties, then figure out how to bind a key to display it. any thoughts appreciated. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: hebrew (or arabic) transparency to call up when i forget key location?
(Either way, ubuntu unity, gnome3 and most other DEs feature onscreen keyboards that can be set to any layout, so you can use those as your onscreen map) 2012/12/31 E.S. Rosenberg esr+linux...@g.jct.ac.il: Have you tried to see what happens when your layout is set to Hebrew/Arabic, if the feature is to help you know where the keys are then it should show in those languages when the keyboard is set to that layout. Though it may also be meant as a touch-screen feature allowing for easy super+[key] combinations where super is the only key on the touchscreen device, in which case it will only show English. Regards, Eliyahu - אליהו 2012/12/30 Michael Shiloh michaelshiloh1...@gmail.com: i just found a nice feature in Unity (new to me at least): press and hold the special key for a semi-transparent overview of keyboard shortcuts, great for jogging the memory. such a transparency of the hebrew (and arabic) keyboard would help me learn to type in hebrew, as i have only english letters on my keycaps. does such a thing exist? if not, i'd like to make my own: hopefully i can find one already in source form and give it the correct properties, then figure out how to bind a key to display it. any thoughts appreciated. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
