from:"Alexander Maryanovsky"

Well, the maps at mapa.co.il should work fine (It's written in Java and I'm 
one of the two authors), but unfortunately Mapa's website uses IE 
javascript and will give you an error on anything but IE. Feel free to 
email and urge them to make their website standards compliant. The other 
catch is that it's not a free service, but the maps are worth every penny 
:-). I've put a screenshot of the map and the UI at 
http://www.jinchess.com/tmp/map.png just so you can appreciate the quality. 
And yes, I implemented all that antialiasing and hebrew text by myself from 
scratch :-).

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 13:26 24.09.2003 +0300, Ittay Dror wrote:
Hello,

I'm trying to find an online maps site (of the sort where you input
source and destination addresses and it provides you with directions). I
used maps.walla.co.il so far, but they upgraded the site and so it
doesn't work for me anymore.
I'm using firebird 0.6.1

Thanx,
Ittay
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Re: linux compatible online maps site?


I'm a long time subscriber (at least three years now) of Mapa and
miss a lot the fact that not only their maps work only with IE
but also that it requires Microsoft JVM (had to disable the Sun
plugin in order to work with it).
Actually, the map (applet) works in any JVM - the issue is that the 
installer applets (it downloads and saves the map applet on your disk) have 
to be VM specific. There are several implementations of the installer 
applet (including one for Sun's JVM), but which one is used is determined 
by your browser's user-agent, and it is (wrongly of course) assumed that on 
IE, you have Microsoft VM. So, if you could access the maps page with 
Mozilla or Netscape, it should work in Sun's JVM just fine.


I told them that I want support for Mozilla (and linux) a long time
ago, who should I contact to say this again?
I don't know really... look on the website (if you can :-)). I didn't 
actually work for Mapa - I worked for Telmap, who make the map itself. If 
you're a paying customer, I suggest calling/emailing their tech support.


I think that recently (for the last few months) they made the other
parts of their site more Linux friendly (mozilla, Konqi etc...).
Well, even the main page won't load for me in Mozilla/Firebird.

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 14:50 24.09.2003 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'm a long time subscriber (at least three years now) of Mapa and
miss a lot the fact that not only their maps work only with IE
but also that it requires Microsoft JVM (had to disable the Sun
plugin in order to work with it).
I told them that I want support for Mozilla (and linux) a long time
ago, who should I contact to say this again?
I think that recently (for the last few months) they made the other
parts of their site more Linux friendly (mozilla, Konqi etc...).
--Amos

Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

Well, the maps at mapa.co.il should work fine (It's written in Java and 
I'm one of the two authors), but unfortunately Mapa's website uses IE 
javascript and will give you an error on anything but IE. Feel free to 
email and urge them to make their website standards compliant. The other 
catch is that it's not a free service, but the maps are worth every penny 
:-). I've put a screenshot of the map and the UI at 
http://www.jinchess.com/tmp/map.png just so you can appreciate the 
quality. And yes, I implemented all that antialiasing and hebrew text by 
myself from scratch :-).

Alexander Maryanovsky.
At 13:26 24.09.2003 +0300, Ittay Dror wrote:
Hello,

I'm trying to find an online maps site (of the sort where you input
source and destination addresses and it provides you with directions). I
used maps.walla.co.il so far, but they upgraded the site and so it
doesn't work for me anymore.
I'm using firebird 0.6.1

Thanx,
Ittay
--
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User Space, RD
Qlusters Inc.
Tel: +972-3-6081956 Fax: +972-3-6081841
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Re: linux compatible online maps site?

At 15:14 24.09.2003 +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:

Without saying anything on the value of this specific service, I'm always
surprised about the prices that companies choose to charge for what is
essentially an online versions of a books (yes, I know, the site provides
more features than a book. But all-in-all, you go to that site looking for
the same information you would normally go to find in the book version).
I can't comment on other services, but I'll comment on Mapa:
Perhaps to you, the service is essentially equivalent to a book with maps, 
and that's just fine - they will still gladly sell you a book. There are 
people, however, who need the extras that the maps on the site provide:
1. They are updated about every month - I'm pretty sure your 5 year old 
book will have many innacuracies.
2. It will find the best (fastest, shortest) route between two given 
locations for you - with a book you have to do it manually.
3. Many times you don't know the exact spelling of the street name which 
makes it very hard to find it in a book - the map applet has fuzzy 
matching, which will find you the correct street name even if you mistype it.
4. You can quickly find a route to where you want to go and print it along 
with the instructions - again, something that would be tedious with  a book.

Besides the map itself, they also have many interesting articles and 
recommendations for places to visit, restaurants etc.

All in all, it seems to be the case that there are enough people willing to 
pay for all these. I remember an article on ynet about half a year ago that 
Mapa was already making money from this service. It was barely in the black 
at the time, but it's probably more nowadays.

Alexander Maryanovsky.

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Re: linux compatible online maps site?


I think that Alexander as one of the programmers should approach them himself
and ask them to modify it so it supports Linux.
He can also help them identify the places that need changes...
Well, I just emailed their CEO and owner (who's a very friendly guy) about 
it, so we'll see.
I'd like to stress it again, though, that I didn't work for Mapa, I worked 
for Telmap, who wrote the map applet itself, not the rest of Mapa's 
website. Also, I'm not a web developer, so I wouldn't know to identify the 
places that need changes - perhaps someone who does can talk to them.

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 16:16 24.09.2003 +0300, Ori Idan wrote:
I second that.
I think that really the Mapa service if it gives all what Alexander says then
it absolutly worth more then the printed version.
However since it work only with MSIE, I will not pay them until it works with
Linux since working only with IE means not working at all to me since I
hardly use windows (Yes, I still have it but it only takes up space on my
hard-disk...).
I think that Alexander as one of the programmers should approach them himself
and ask them to modify it so it supports Linux.
He can also help them identify the places that need changes...
 I can't comment on other services, but I'll comment on Mapa:
 Perhaps to you, the service is essentially equivalent to a book with maps,
 and that's just fine - they will still gladly sell you a book. There are
 people, however, who need the extras that the maps on the site provide:
 1. They are updated about every month - I'm pretty sure your 5 year old
 book will have many innacuracies.
 2. It will find the best (fastest, shortest) route between two given
 locations for you - with a book you have to do it manually.
 3. Many times you don't know the exact spelling of the street name which
 makes it very hard to find it in a book - the map applet has fuzzy
 matching, which will find you the correct street name even if you mistype
 it. 4. You can quickly find a route to where you want to go and print it
 along with the instructions - again, something that would be tedious with
 a book.

 Besides the map itself, they also have many interesting articles and
 recommendations for places to visit, restaurants etc.

 All in all, it seems to be the case that there are enough people willing to
 pay for all these. I remember an article on ynet about half a year ago that
 Mapa was already making money from this service. It was barely in the black
 at the time, but it's probably more nowadays.


 Alexander Maryanovsky.


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Re: linux compatible online maps site?


The extra features you describe (and which I also said existed) are still
doable with the book, with more effort. Are the extra features you listed
worth the extra 900 shekels for 5 years? Maybe to you. My claim is that most
people with down-to-earth salaries and dozens of other bills to pay will
make due with the much cheaper book.
The strange thing is that the online site should be cheaper for them to
operate. Selling physical books has huge overheads - the raw materials,
the printing presses, the commisions the stores stake (probably as much
as 50% of the price of the book); All these are saved in an online version,
and all they have to pay is for the internet access (this costs peanuts)
and for the coding, which ideally should be amortized over several years
of operations (unless you write crappy, non-standard code which becomes
worthless after a year!).
Sorry, I'm just not familiar with their budget, or how much it cost them to 
develop the website. Perhaps it's the fact that they've been doing their 
books for many years now and have the process very streamlined.


BTW, remember that all services you described are stuff you need to do
at home before you leave. Most people actually want to take the map book with
them in the car... All these extra services could have been much more
useful if you had them on some mobile device (GPS, cellphone, palm, etc.).
Mapa do have a mapa2go service for Palms, although I don't believe it 
features the actual maps. Telmap, on the other hand, is working on exactly 
that - mobile (in car) navigation. I don't know exactly when an actual 
product will be available, but I understand they should have something 
fairly soon - you can contact them and ask about it at [EMAIL PROTECTED], or 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 16:24 24.09.2003 +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
On Wed, Sep 24, 2003, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote about Re: linux 
compatible online maps site?:
 I can't comment on other services, but I'll comment on Mapa:
 Perhaps to you, the service is essentially equivalent to a book with maps,
 and that's just fine - they will still gladly sell you a book. There are

The extra features you describe (and which I also said existed) are still
doable with the book, with more effort. Are the extra features you listed
worth the extra 900 shekels for 5 years? Maybe to you. My claim is that most
people with down-to-earth salaries and dozens of other bills to pay will
make due with the much cheaper book.
The strange thing is that the online site should be cheaper for them to
operate. Selling physical books has huge overheads - the raw materials,
the printing presses, the commisions the stores stake (probably as much
as 50% of the price of the book); All these are saved in an online version,
and all they have to pay is for the internet access (this costs peanuts)
and for the coding, which ideally should be amortized over several years
of operations (unless you write crappy, non-standard code which becomes
worthless after a year!).
BTW, remember that all services you described are stuff you need to do
at home before you leave. Most people actually want to take the map book with
them in the car... All these extra services could have been much more
useful if you had them on some mobile device (GPS, cellphone, palm, etc.).
 All in all, it seems to be the case that there are enough people 
willing to
 pay for all these. I remember an article on ynet about half a year ago 
that
 Mapa was already making money from this service. It was barely in the 
black
 at the time, but it's probably more nowadays.

I never said they didn't make money. But what if halving their price would
triple their clientelle?
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] |-
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http://nadav.harel.org.il   |mistake when you make it again.


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Re: Opera browser

2003-09-03 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

At 02:06 04.09.2003 +0300, Vasiliev Michael wrote:

Out of sheer curiosity, has anyone but me noticed that the new linux version
of Opera browser (7.20b7)  for linux now has a long-awaited support for
Hebrew BiDi? Though it isn't an open-source application but quite a nice
browser anyway.
You're not alone :-). Unfortunately it's not perfect yet (mixing hebrew and 
english isn't always correct) and it still breaks on many sites (ynet for 
example) where Mozilla does just fine. As an owner of Opera for both 
Windows and Linux, I'm keeping my fingers crossed they'll fix it by the 
final release.

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

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Hamakor bumper stickers

2003-09-02 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

Hi everyone,

I just saw someone on the road with a Hofshi ze yoter me hinam hamakor 
bumper sticker (at least it had the logo) in an SGI car. I tried to catch 
him and ask on one of the intersections, but all the lights were green and 
so we eventually parted on the Rishon interchange. So who was it, and more 
importantly, where can I get these (or other) bumper stickers?

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

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Re: Hamakor bumper stickers

2003-09-02 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

At 00:48 03.09.2003 +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
I just saw someone on the road with a Hofshi ze yoter me hinam hamakor 
bumper sticker (at least it had the logo) in an SGI car. I tried to catch 
him and ask on one of the intersections, but all the lights were green 
and so we eventually parted on the Rishon interchange. So who was it,
Green car? If so, I probably know who that was.
I think so... either that or blue (it was dark).


I'll make sure they are mailed to all members who still need to get their 
members' cards. Anyone else will have to catch me sometime when I have 
those on me (or send me a self addressed envelop? :-)
Great, I didn't get mine yet :-)

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

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Re: Cost of qt development license

2003-08-31 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

At 17:54 31.08.2003 +0300, Aviram Jenik wrote:
Hi,

We are currently debating on what GUI infrastructure to use for one of our
products, and the main downside of qt seems to be its constraining license.
Can anyone shed more light on this subject? How much does the qt license cost
to develop a non-GPL product that uses qt library?
Does it also apply for tools like kdevelop?
Are there any free (read: completely free, with no we're-free-but fine
print) alternatives other than gtk and WxWindows?
Java/Swing? Java/SWT? Not Free, but certainly free.

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

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2D vs. 3D (was OS-X rules, X sucks)

2003-08-29 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky


they map each window as a texture map over
a rectangular 3D object using the graphic's hardware 3D acceleration mode.


I have a (perhaps offtopic, but I changed the topic :-)) question - why is 
it that hardware acceleration for 3D operations so much better than for 2D 
operations (which are presumably easier). Seeing as 2D graphics is needed 
much more often than 3D, has been needed for much longer and is probably 
much easier to implement, I'd expect 2D to have the faster stuff. The above 
description implies that QuartzExtreme is cheating by using 3D operations 
for tasks that are essentially 2D. Why is the situation like this? To 
support all those First Person Shooters?

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

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Re: [OT] Java linkage

2003-08-15 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky


not so in Java. if a class exposes a certain interface which other classes
use, newer versions can add methods or remove unused methods w/o a need to
recompile the using classes.
Even more breaking changes are allowed, see 
http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/second_edition/html/binaryComp.doc.html

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 12:57 15.08.2003 +0300, Oded Arbel wrote:
On Thursday 14 August 2003 15:15, Aviram Jenik wrote:

  in C I would put the new .obj (compiled code) instead of the old one, and
  try to link...

 Again, unless I'm not following you, you cannot do that in C++ either. If
 the interface *changed*, and other classes are using that interface, you
 will need to recompile them.
not so in Java. if a class exposes a certain interface which other classes
use, newer versions can add methods or remove unused methods w/o a need to
recompile the using classes.
--
Oded
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Re: [Key Signing] Problems Downloading Some of the Keys

2003-08-01 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

I'm going to jump into the middle of this discussion not having read it 
from the beginning so I apologize upfront if I say something stupid or 
unrelated because of this.


The birdhouse principle says that if one is trying to put n+1 birds in n
bird-houses, then you must put 2 birds in at least one bird-house. Since
there is a limited number of key IDs and supposedly a greater number of
circulating keys, then there must be two keys which share the same ID.
First, I'll nitpick a little - you must put at least two pigeons in at 
least one hole, you don't necessarily have a hole with exactly two pigeons :-)
Now, to something a bit more interesting. It is true that if the keyspace 
is bigger than the id-space then you will necessarily have several keys 
sharing the same key-id, *but* in practice you can make it so that the 
id-space is much, much bigger than the actual number of keys out there 
making it statistically unlikely for two existing keys to have the same 
key-id. This is the case with, for example, good cryptographic hashes - 
although there obviously exist two (much more than two) messages with the 
same md5 hash, not only it is highly unlikely to happen for any two given 
messages, but it is also infeasible (with current 
mathematical/algorithmical knowledge) to find two such messages.

Disclaimer: I don't actually understand anything in cryptology - these are 
just things I read (or worse, thought of myself), so if I'm wrong, please 
educate, but don't flame :-)

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.



At 21:50 01.08.2003 +0300, Shlomi Fish wrote:
On Fri, 1 Aug 2003, Shaul Karl wrote:

 On Fri, Aug 01, 2003 at 08:17:53PM +0300, Orna Agmon wrote:
 
  The KEY ID cannot be unique. It can be well distributed, such thatkeys
  that vary a little have a very different KEY ID, but since it holds a lot
  less information than the actual key, there is no way of it being uniqe.
  Bird house principle (? - SHOVACH YONIM).
 


 What is the birdhouse principle and how it gets demonstrated in the
 KEY ID space?
The birdhouse principle says that if one is trying to put n+1 birds in n
bird-houses, then you must put 2 birds in at least one bird-house. Since
there is a limited number of key IDs and supposedly a greater number of
circulating keys, then there must be two keys which share the same ID.
Regards,

Shlomi Fish

 --

   Shaul Karl,shaul @ actcom . net . il



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There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1
chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you.
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Re: Looking for ideas for free-software projects

2003-07-07 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

- Original Message -
From: Shaul Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 01:10:30 +0300
To: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Looking for ideas for free-software projects

 On Mon, Jul 07, 2003 at 10:15:08PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

  As a fallback for students who don't want to join an existing project, 
  the current scheme may be chosen. The objectives, goals, and 
  design stages, however, will be waved for those students who choose to 
  join an existing project.

   I believe that by saying that these targets should be waved when
 joining an existing project you are shooting yourself in the leg. This
 is so because it sounds to me as if you are saying that these targets
 are not applicable for someone who just joins an existing project for
 a short term. Yet these targets should be very important to the 
 students career and there fore will not be waved by the university. 

Yes, but this is not a software design workshop as I understand - it's an open source 
development workshop. Hopefully the students are already familiar and comfortable with 
good design and coding practices. Otherwise nobody will ever allow them to commit 
their code.

In
 fact, some people might claim that they are more important then the
 actual code because a good and detailed design pretty much dictates the
 actual code. Saying it otherwise, a good and detailed design can be
 implemented in a technical manner and one doesn't have to take an
 undergraduate (or do we talk about a graduate?) course for implementing 
 one.

   As an aside, and in order to avoid making people feel that they are
 forced into Linux, what about porting an open source project to MS env?
 I believe that even with cygwin or a similar Unix libraries there would
 be plenty to do. 
 -- 

 Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t

Alexander Maryanovsky.
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Re: Looking for ideas for free-software projects

2003-07-06 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

The actual assignment of this workshop seems to go quite counter to the 
usual way open source is developed.
You don't specify and characterize the problem front, except maybe in a 
very vague form, you don't design all the application modules up front, you 
don't list and schedule resources and people up front, and you most 
certainly don't have to decide on the technologies, development environment 
and tools up front. You don't do these because you can't and because you 
don't want to. You can't, because people joining in on the development may 
(and will) use different tools, different designs, different technologies 
and you don't want to because if these different tools, designs or 
technologies are better, you'd want to be able to be dynamic and open 
enough to switch.

Also, what is this requirement to develop on Linux? Linux != Open Source! 
Open Source is much, much bigger than Linux.
I write in Java. My development platform is Windows. My tools are editplus, 
jikes, ant and Sun's JDK. Am I not an OS/FS developer 
(http://www.jinchess.com, http://www.jedit.org/)?

Sorry about the (slightly offtopic) rant, but it doesn't seem to be that 
this workshop will actually teach anyone the true spirit of Open Source 
(which is usually developing something fun, for the heck of it, no? Yes, 
there are other reasons for people to write OS code, but this seems the 
most popular one). I don't think a graded workshop/course *can*. Only 
coming up with a cool idea and diving into it can.

Alexander Maryanovsky, a first year TAU student, btw :-)

At 20:58 06.07.2003 +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote:
I was told that Tel-Aviv University is giving an interesting workshop
this summer: a workshop on writing free software. See:
http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~eddiea/workshop-summer-2003.html

According to that page, the students will be taught a bit about Linux and
free software (including a lecture by our esteemed friend, Muli), and then
asked to write software in small 2-3 person teams, using open source and
free software methodologies.
Needless to say, if we (the community) are given a bunch of bright students,
it would be great if instead of writing the N+1th free tetris clone they
would actually work on something the community needs - perhaps even something
that the Israeli community needs.
Like is written in the aforementioned page, good free software usually stems
from a real needs. But it is likely that most of these students used Linux
very little (if at all) and are unlikely to know what is really needed.
I'm sure the teacher of the workshop will give them ideas, but I thought it
would be nice if people on this list could also raise ideas for project,
and I'll pass them on to the students (I know one of them).
Please read the workshop's page for what the projects have to be. In short,
it should be something that 2-3 people can do in a relaxed summer, something
useful and non-trivial, something that involves programming (it cannot be only
about translation, for example). It would be nice if the project had an added
value for the Israeli community, but it can also be something which has
nothing to do with Israel.
I hope that other universities will follow TAU in this nice initiative.

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Re: Looking for ideas for free-software projects

2003-07-06 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky


 Linux is probably just a requirement so that the teacher could have a
 common language with the students and be able to check what the students
It's also a practical requirement - we can't install whatever bizzare
platform anyone will want, and anyway - to stress your point - I think
one of the points in this workshop and in FS/OS in general is to be as
portable and standards-compliant as possible.
Point taken. Still not sure why it has to be a *requirement* though - if I 
already have the bizarre *development* platform set up at home and my 
software is portable (i.e. will run on Linux, so you can test it without 
setting anything new up), why not allow it?


 Are we talking free or open source here? Also, I assume you know that
 ~commercial != open/free :-)
 Sorry, done nitpicking now :-)
I guess you do not know Nadav very well. google a bit.
I didn't imply Nadav doesn't know what OS or FS is. I was just nitpicking 
about the use of the word commercial as opposed to non-free 
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html).


 That's not what I meant and I disagree - you can teach (and grade) the
 spirit of mathematics, computer science, physics, biology etc. etc.
 A good project in one of the above fields is one that achieves some
 objective goals (proving a theorem, solving a problem).
 A good project in open source is one that makes its developer happy about
 it - you can't (objectively) grade that.
If you agree with CATB (I mostly do), he says that most _good_ FS/OS
is written because the author needed it. It was also probably fun to
write, but no big, good FS/OS, is written _only_ for fun. Because life
sux, and a lot of the work towards a real, long-lived, used often,
program, is not that fun.
By your definition of good, which probably corresponds to the general 
definition of good software (i.e. clean, useful, efficient and whatever 
other qualifiers are usually considered good for software). But I am 
currently writing a Scheme interpreter in Java - it's very cleanly and 
neatly coded, but completely useless except for my own enjoyment and you 
can only imagine how slow it's going to be :-) Does that make it a bad OS 
project?


  Alexander Maryanovsky, a first year TAU student, btw :-)
 
 Maybe you should join that workshop - it looks like you already have
 an idea for free software!

 I'll probably fail on account of the the organizational requirements :-)

You can always try. Eddie doesn't eat people. If you are a good
programmer, and have a good idea for a project, you are probably
already more ready for the workshop than most of the students here.
Maybe some other year, if I really need the grade ;-)

Alexander Maryanovsky.

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Re: Cross platform code

2003-07-04 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky


Well actually, if I wanted to save myself the headache I would have
done it in Java :)
Extremely easy to develop, I just love that language. There is only one
major drawback which annoys me and that's speed. This application I'm
writing has to be able to handle many requests per second if need be.
This is the only reason why I wouldn't wanna do this with an interpreted
language, or a bytecoded language for that matter.. :-/
Java is only marginally slower than C/C++ for non UI tasks (Java2D is the 
reason it's slow at UI - see Swing on JDK 1.1, or SWT).
The new IO libraries (async IO) make things even better. You can even 
compile code that doesn't use the AWT with gcj for Linux or JET for Windows 
(which handles AWT too, but isn't free or Free). Also, you should first 
make sure that your application is definitely going to be CPU bound before 
deciding against an interpreted language (most interpreted languages, 
including Java, aren't really interpreted nowadays). On today's hardware, 
most applications are network, disk and user bound, which a compiled 
language isn't going to improve.

Alexander Maryanovsky.

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Re: C flame (was: FS/OS in schools)

2003-06-08 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

At 10:20 08.06.2003 +0300, Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
HM Last time that I heard, in Ben-Gurion university, the first programming
HM language was Java. That's a swell idea in my opinion. Java is
HM feature-complete, you can't argue with that. It also means that students
I can. Too many times I have heard from Java guys working next door
phrases like This feature works starting with Java 1.x and saw This
feature is deprecated.
Java itself, the language, hasn't changed since JDK 1.1 (released in 97 if 
I'm not mistaken).
Several important additions are planned for the next JDK1.5 - 
http://java.sun.com/features/2003/05/bloch_qa.html


HM hackers, I think it is extremely important to teach beginners to
HM think object-oriented, even if all they'll ever use is an
I don't know why OO is the single concept that needs to be taught before
all. Imagine the guy is going to be a relational DBA - how OO is going to
help him there? OO is an important concept, but it is not the only concept
in existance.
I agree, however students must be taught to *think* in an object oriented 
manner before they get stuck in procedural. It's rather hard to do the 
switch once you're used to procedural programming.


HM The basic stuff you need to teach people is algorithms and data
HM structures.  You want to save them from all the clutter around
Hear, hear! And C is actually _better_ for teaching data structures,
because you can _feel_ how these data structures work. In Java, a lot of
things are masked by gc is going to make it for me and I don't need to
know how hashes are working - I have standard class for that and I
don't need to initialize - it will be null anyways.
I disagree. Why must I at all worry how big an int is going to be unless 
I'm doing some very low level programming? Why must beginners have to 
handle with the nontrivial issue of releasing memory? Or pointer 
arithmetics? Maybe my opinion doesn't mean much, but consider this - MIT, 
Caltech, TAU (yes, TAU is not in the same league, but I study there :-) ) 
and many other universities teach Scheme in their introduction to CS 
classes. Scheme has garbage collection, no pointer arithmetics, unboundedly 
(is that a word?) big integers/fractions. Heck, even arrays in Scheme were 
shown to us in a by the way, there is also an O(1) access list in Scheme way.

I wouldn't say Java is *the* best language to teach beginners (I would say 
Scheme is), but it's certainly not as bad as C (or worse, C++). As for 
teaching OO specifically, Java seems to be pretty good.

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Re: C flame (was: FS/OS in schools)

2003-06-08 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



At 13:16 08.06.2003 +0200, Eran Tromer wrote:
On 2003/06/08 12:01, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

 Java itself, the language, hasn't changed since JDK 1.1 (released in 97
 if I'm not mistaken).
Nearly so.
JDK 1.1 added the strictfp keyword, and JDK 1.4 added the assert
keyword.
True, yes... JDK1.1 also added inner/anonymous classes (which is an 
important addition), but then again, I said since JDK 1.1 :-)

The main change since JDK1.1 was the clean and fairly complete Collections 
framework in JDK 1.2, but that's of course not a language change (although 
it's much more important than scrictfp or assert).

Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

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Linux distro for old computers

2003-06-03 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

Hi everyone,

A friend of mine had her windows (98) die a horrible death and she asked me 
to reinstall it. I told her that I could install a better operating system 
called Linux instead. Now, this would be fine and dandy, as she doesn't 
need anything special that Linux doesn't support, but her computer is very 
old. I haven't been told the specs exactly, yet, but my guess would be 
something like Pentium 200Mhz 64MB and probably an under 500MB HD. Which 
distro could I possibly install that will run, will be useable 
(performance/responsiveness wise), and would still have the basics you'd 
expect from a desktop - graphical browsing, email, very basic (hebrew) word 
processing...? Oh, and it needs to support FAT32 as she needs to keep her D 
drive.

Also note that while I'm not a complete newbie, I'm not extremely linux 
savvy and would prefer not to spend weeks installing Slackware or roll my 
own distro :-)

Thanks,
Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.
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Re: Fwd: failure notice

2003-05-02 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

Apologies, I'm a moron :-)
The reply wasn't from an intermediate server (outblaze is the mail server 
of my email provider), but my email was sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED], not 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Again, apologies,
Alexander Maryanovsky.
At 15:06 02.05.2003 +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.

The complaint you got was from an intermediate mail server 
(smtp1.us4.outblaze.com), complaining that it will not relay your mail. 
This has nothing to do with any of Hamakor servers, and so I cannot help you.

 Shachar

Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

Umm, I know spam is a problem, but is it a good idea to deny email to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] from any address, much less denying from addresses by 
default (unless not in whitelist)? Not very friendly.

Alexander Maryanovsky.

Date: 2 May 2003 11:07:05 -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: failure notice
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at smtp1.us4.outblaze.com.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
212.199.30.105 does not like recipient.
Remote host said: 553 sorry, that domain isn't in my list of allowed 
rcpthosts (#5.7.1)
Giving up on 212.199.30.105.

--
Shachar Shemesh
Open Source integration consultant
Home page  resume - http://www.shemesh.biz/


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Re: politics at sourceforge hosters.

2003-01-30 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



Same from Internet Zahav


Dunno, works fine here (Internet Zahav as well).


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 23:06 30.01.2003 +0200, Daniel Feiglin wrote:

Meir Michanie wrote:

while trying to access one of the projects hosted at your domain:
http://drip.sourceforge.net/

 I got redirected to a political site:
http://www.inminds.com/boycott-israel.html
I am accessing the site form Israel and it seems that the site is
running some kind of script.
I fund this very disturbing, Please do something on the matter.



Same from Internet Zahav


DAF


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IBM lecture(s) rant

2003-01-08 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

I found the lectures today rather unimpressive, although the event itself 
was quite nice and well organized.
Some specific notes:
1. The Ila guy seemed to misunderstand the whole use Linux in govt. 
proposition. This has been discussed a lot, but worth repeating:
  His argument was that if Linux is good, it should compete and win based 
on that, and not on a law. This is all well and nice for private
  organizations and people, but for the government, one of the *features* 
of Linux and OSS is their openness and auditability. Therefore, the
  law is doing just what he suggests should be done - the best OS is being 
chosen based on its features, where features is not restricted
  to technical superiority. Basically, for the government, the openness of 
Linux is just as important as the technical advantages are, if not
  more so.

Especially disappointing was Moshe Bar's lecture. I've only heard about him 
until now, but since he teaches the OS design class in TAU (which I'm 
going to have to take for my degree), I assumed he's more knowledgeable 
that that. Of course, it could also be that I'm the ignorant and uninformed 
one, in which case, I'm sure you folks will be happy to put me in place :-)

2. Nobody is making money from selling Free software? This may be true per 
se, but it's a very bad statement. There are many companies who are making 
money *developing* Free software, so who cares if they're not *selling* it 
to make the money? The important thing is that valid business plans of the 
type:
1. Develop Free software.
2. ???
3. Profit.
do exist, by replacing the question marks with something reasonable.
Examples? I was going to say RedHat and Trolltech, but since Moshe 
already replied about RedHat, I'll put up Trolltech as an example. Theirs 
is the most viable business model I have seen so far for developing 
Free/Open source software. For those who don't know, Trolltech give away Qt 
under the GPL (and the QPL), but also sell it to under a different license 
you if you want to avoid the viral nature of the GPL and make your own 
changes without having to release them.

3. Linux is Open Source? FreeBSD is Free Software? Am I missing something 
here? Last I checked, Linux was GPL and FreeBSD was BSD, making Linux Free 
Software and FreeBSD OSS. I would've believed it was an honest mistake, 
unless he repeated it (in various forms) so many times. The Zend guy 
seemed much more proficient regarding the GPL/LGPL/BSD than Moshe Bar...

4. OpenOffice a fork from last available open version of StarOffice?  I'm 
not 100% sure that it's not true, but AFAIK more than half of the people 
working on OO are Sun's people. From what I understand, StarOffice is just 
OpenOffice with various useful add-ons... Am I wrong?

5. The Theodore Ts'o lecture was of course much better, but too business 
oriented for me. I would've preferred to hear about Linux kernel 
development, relationships between the main developers, perhaps his stand 
on the BitKeeper issue, etc. Not his fault of course... this is
what he's been asked to talk about by IBM.


Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.


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Re: IBM lecture(s) rant

2003-01-08 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



Therefore it can be argued that the government should require software to be
auditable by some means, but not to force Linux specifically, or even free
software in general. For example, assume that MSFT gives the government a peek
at their source code, subject to NDA and a license written by the same lawyers
who write soul-selling contracts for Satan.


The software used by the government needs to be auditable by the people, as 
well as by the government itself. What if MSFT sells the government a 
ballot counting system which is broken in a manner allowing the party 
currently in power to win - what incentive does the (current) government 
have to complain about it?


That's advocacy. The point he was trying to make is that, although the GPL 
does
not prevent people from making money on selling free software, real life seems
to do, because nobody is a fryer. Point being that if you go for free
software, you have to find another way to make your money: the software cannot
be the product you sell.

Again, I agree that his statement may be true per se (or at least hasn't 
been disproved so far), but it's a bad statement, in the sense that it's 
confusing. To (business) people that are new to free/open source software 
this immediately translates to You can't make money by developing 
free/open source software. Unless you are very careful and explain in 
detail what exactly you mean by your statement, it will only hurt free/open 
source software, instead of making people more informed about it.


 Even your example of Trolltech is not good enough.
Basically, if they make money from allowing people to close their 
software, then
they are an Open Source company, not a Free Software company. QED.

Well, this is just playing with definitions... I'm not sure what you would 
define as an open source company and what as a free software company. The 
point is the same - you can develop Free (GPL licensed) software and make 
money on it. Heck - IBM are doing just that - isn't that's what this whole 
event was about? :-)


You forgot the biggest disappointment of all: RMS not showing up. If it wasn't
for the promise of his presence, I would not have bothered - I heard 
nothing new
today that was relevant to me, except perhaps the Eclipse sales pitch...

Agreed. Me probably neither... I've already heard the Eclipse sales pitch 
at a different occasion :-)


Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.


Herouth



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Smallrash (sp?) auditorium?

2003-01-07 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

Umm, this is probably at least a little on topic, but does anyone know 
where the Smallrash (sp? Sorry, I only saw the name in Hebrew) auditorium 
in TAU is? This is a little on topic because that's where the RMS lecture 
tomorrow is going to be...
Reply privately if you feel it's off topic...


Alexander Maryanovsky.


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Re: Another Language War [was RE: C vs. Pascal vs. the World [was Re: Edu in linux]]

2003-01-03 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

I won't get into this war, but I'll respond to a small comment:


And you do need a good Java debugger. Trust me. You could always use a
good debugger, regardless of which language you write in. Too bad jdb is
pure useless crap.


I've been coding in Java both professionally and as a hobby (an open source 
project) for over 3 years now and my most powerful debugging tool is still 
System.out.println(). And no, I'm not writing 50 line programs. When you 
have well designed, thought out code in a language that has very few 
surprises (although any language can be like that if you know it well 
enough), all bugs are trivial mistakes. So I'm with Tzahi on this one.


Alexander Maryanovsky.



At 13:39 03.01.2003 +0200, Shlomi Fish wrote:
On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Tzahi Fadida wrote:

 lets get the facts straight.
 pascal was designed for students and for learning purposes, since C is 
DIFFICULT to
 learn because

Actually, AFAIR Pascal has been around a long time before C, but was
indeed designed for educational purposes.

 of all the possible bugs u can get in a 50 lines program. and pascal 
has many saftey
 measeures.

Not too many measures. Wirth' later languages (Modula-2, Modula-3 and
Oberon) corrected some of the problem that Pascal had which could result
in buggy code.

 C was designed to write operating system code. and it was desgined to 
be flexible and
 efficient enough for the task.
 my opionion is that C is a relic of the past when u write program who 
does not really
 need efficiency!

Quite true. Of course, every program has some efficiency in mind. Imagine
a program to merge two directories that takes running all day long.
Luckily a Virtual machine like Perl is fast enough to do that. An
equivalent C program would be faster, but Perl would still be fast enough.

Then again, if you design brain-dead algorithms, like such that have O(n)
lookup, you can end up in programs that run as slow as a dog whether they
are written in C or in Perl. Then there's Visual Basic where I was told
arrays are implemented as linked lists...

 and short of writing kernel code C is the most dumb thingto use.

Kernel code, or code that needs to be very efficient, compile fast, and be
very portable, and with an expected behaviour. C gives you all that, and
C++, unfortunately does not yet. Unless, of course, you stick to using GNU
C++.

If you'll look into the source code of open-source projects that are
not written in a high-level language, you'll see that most of them are
written in C and not in C++. And you can write kernel code in C++ if you'd
like, as long as you don't use exceptions.

 C++ is a little better for the task, but if efficiency is not what you 
need, for
 example, in a program that sends queries to a database or numerous 
other high level
 programming tasks.
 there is no need to use C or C++. you have java, visual basic, and 
delphi on the top.

Visual Basic is Windows-specific and your code will not be portable.

Delphi is proprietary, available only on Windows and Linux/x86 and the
language itself is quite limited in comparison to higher-level languages
like Perl, Python (or for you, Oleg, LISP).

Java is nice, but proprietary. If you ask me it's a mid-way between C and
Perl, which is very verbose and overly object-oriented. But if you need to
write computationally-intensitive portable code, or such that can be
deployed on web-browsers, it's a good choice.

 phyton and scripting languages at the sidebars for straight forward 
tasks. and
 libraries that acompany various languages.


Using libraries and modules that other people wrote to you is always a
good idea in any language you use. They can often save you a lot of
labour.

 my point is, why program in C when you have JAVA? why write in C++ when 
you have
 visual basic?

I cannot write in Visual Basic, because I expect my code to be deployed on
Linux. Java itself is written in C, and C still outperforms Java. If you
want to write a virtual machine or a similar platform C is still a better
choice. Not to mentione with very efficient code, code that uses hardware,
and other things I've mentioned.

Some people avoid writing in Java because its only complete
implementations are proprietary.

 whywrite in perl when u have java applets or similar thingies that 
should make you
 job less difficult and
 buggy?

I beg your pardon? Java applets less difficult to write in with Perl?
System.out.println(Hello World) anyone? public static void main()?
extermely verbose class names like InputStream for doing trivial tasks?
I can produce Perl code much faster than I can ever do with Java. And I
need to compile the Java code and then interpret it, while in Perl I run
it out of the file.

Less buggy? There can be bugs in Perl code and there can be bugs in Java
code. If you are careful and experienced, your Perl code will not have too
many bugs. Java code can have many bugs. If you are looking for a language
that eliminates as many bugs as possible, look in the direction

Re: Debuggers [was Re: Another Language War [was RE: C vs. Pascal vs. the World [was Re: Edu in linux]]

2003-01-03 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



Hi Alexander! Next time please delete the rest of the message - it was
quite long.


Ok.



As much as a code can be well-thought and well-designed, there can always
be typos and things you did not thought about. A misplaced operator, two
consecutive if's instead of one nested in the other or vice versa. A
missing if altogether. And it can happen while your program is in the
1000's iteration. Would you like to analyze a log of N*1000 lines?


Those are exactly the trivial mistakes I was talking about - they are very 
easy to catch with a println because it's immediately visible that some 
variable's value is incorrect. As for analyzing a log of N*1000 lines - why 
would I do that? The language has a beautiful mechanism for conditional 
printlns:
if (controlVariable != expectedValue){
  System.out.println(error on iteration +i+. var1: +var1+ var2: +var2);
  Thread.dumpStack();
}

The only thing that is hard to debug in Java (and in any other language) is 
multithreading, with or without a debugger. I avoid multithreading bugs by 
being 5 times as careful about multithreaded code as I am about single 
threaded code.


Alexander Maryanovsky.


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Re: JAVA and other dangers

2002-12-29 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



The question to be answered is whether or not the closed programs is a
derivative of the GPLed one. The GPL states that a program that is
linked against a GPLed program is considered a derivative program, so
according to the GPL you only get legal rights to use the GPLed program
if you offer the previously closed source program under the GPL license
when you distribute it.


It's not that clear cut with Java. In fact, the GPL is rather flawed when 
it comes to interpreted languages, or any languages that allow reflection, 
because in the former case, there is no linking (at least not in the 
original sense) and in the latter, linking can be avoided via said mechanism.
I solve this problem by going by the spirit of the GPL and not its letter, 
but the original poster seems to be more interested in the legal 
repercussions of his actions, no?

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 00:09 30.12.2002 +0200, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:
On Sun, 2002-12-29 at 22:46, Ira Abramov wrote:

 like... if my closed-source Java program calls an otherwise standalone
 Jar that is GPL and embeds its output in the main GUI (a sort of applet
 within an applet), is my program, which links directly to its APIs (if
 I got it correctly), forced to become GPL too?

The question to be answered is whether or not the closed programs is a
derivative of the GPLed one. The GPL states that a program that is
linked against a GPLed program is considered a derivative program, so
according to the GPL you only get legal rights to use the GPLed program
if you offer the previously closed source program under the GPL license
when you distribute it.

Of course, IANAL ;-)


--
Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://benyossef.com

 Geeks rock bands cool name #8192: RAID against the machine


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Re: openoffice.org.il is up

2002-12-12 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

I think it would be a good idea to put up a page with The current state of 
events, specifying what is currently supported, what known problems exist 
and what's being worked on...


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 23:21 11.12.2002 +0200, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:
http://www.openoffice.org.il

The site is dedicated to the effort to add full Hebrew and Arabic
support to Sun inc. OpenOffice office suite and allows easy access to
the Bidi supporting development versions of OpenOffice.

Cheers,
Gilad Ben-Yossef

--
Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://benyossef.com

 Geeks rock bands cool name #8192: RAID against the machine


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Re: You asked - we do !

2002-12-04 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



feasible for anybody in the private sector. If it was moved even a half hour
forward it would be more reasonable - allows one to get out of work and get to
TAU, if one is in TA/RG.


A full hour forward is even better, so that I don't have to miss my 
Discrete Math lecture :-)


Alexander (aka Sasha) Maryanovsky.

At 14:11 04.12.2002 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Quoting Eddie Aronovich [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


 For now there are lectures planned once on 2 weeks, on Mondays.

At 18:00. Darn. I've been wishing to attend regular linux lectures, but you
know, not all Linux enthusiasts are unemployed. 18:00 on a weekday is not
feasible for anybody in the private sector. If it was moved even a half hour
forward it would be more reasonable - allows one to get out of work and get to
TAU, if one is in TA/RG.

Herouth

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Re: The bright future of VMware

2002-12-03 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



VMware's product is simply a little too complex and too mission critical
to be developped without intensive and costly QA, and get things done at
a speed the big clients expect.


Hmm, isn't that exactly what many people (ESR comes to mind) thought about 
operating systems until recently?
Almost always, the answer to the question why is there no good (open 
source)/free alternative? is that there aren't enough talented people who 
need it, and so they haven't implemented it yet. Perhaps VMWare does 
everything they want, or perhaps they simply don't need something like 
VMWare, because Linux is enough for them.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 13:13 03.12.2002 +0200, Ira Abramov wrote:
Quoting Boris Gorelik, from the post of Tue, 03 Dec:

 Just thinking: How come none asks for why isn't VMware an open source 
program

1. license for the industry standard BIOS and firmware of the various
PCI cards etc.

2. tens of thousands of man hours in development and testing, QA and
certifications.

if you want the open alternative, look at bochs. dare to compare
features and performance?

it's nice to be a zealot, but the truth is (and the current economical
truth will show) the world is not ready for complete Open Source
economy. the vast majority of OSS developers have to make do getting
payed on doing support for their work or write closed source as well.
think of it as poets - most of them have to keep day jobs since only a
small handfull of them can actually make a living on revenues on their
work...
VMware's product is simply a little too complex and too mission critical
to be developped without intensive and costly QA, and get things done at
a speed the big clients expect.

I don't see that as bad, and if I had the need for this product I would
have gladly payed the price. in the big picture it encourages the use of
linux in a way, so that can't be bad either. the big buzzword in their
business now is server consolidation and everyone wants a linux server
to run IIS or other crazy combos, and this is where their big money is.
I tip my hat to any company I saw on the show floor at Linuxworld 1999
that is still keeping its head above the water, and they are definitely
one of the brightest examples.

so Boris Darling, OSS and Free Software are truths. they are solid
truths, important truths, but they are not absolute truths. the moment
you get off the ideals tree and see how you can promote your ideals
realisticly, we'll be able to subvert the Closed Source economy better
:-)

Happy Hanukkah,
Ira.

--
Stay tuned for the next installment of
Ira Abramov

http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13.
Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.


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Re: Alternatives to Mozilla

2002-11-28 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

When do you know you're talking to an open source supporter?
When he's looking for alternatives to *Mozilla* :-)


Alexander Maryanovsky.


At 12:38 28.11.2002 +0200, Baruch Even wrote:

I'm using Galeon regularly, it's plenty fast for me, but my machine is
not a 300MHz one, on a Athlon 700MHz it worked smoothly enough.

I have no hebrew problems with it, to the best of my knowledge it works
the same as for Mozilla. Rendering is fine, just like mozilla, that is
to say that IE specific sites don't look too good.

Baruch


* Amir Tal [EMAIL PROTECTED] [021128 12:16]:
 On Thursday 28 November 2002 11:24, you wrote:

 how about galeon ? is it as fast ?
 no Hebrew compatibilities issues ?

 i am getting low on disk space here, so i don't want to just install 
and check
 it out...

 did you ever try it ? if its based on mozilla's engine, it's suppose to 
act
 almost 100% the same as far as rendering, right ?

 tal.

  I don't know about the pointers, but if I was you, I would try Phoenix
  instead of Moz. On a 300MHz machine, Moz probably runs pretty slowly.
  Phoenix is quite a bit lighter.
 
  HTH,
 
  Martin Polley
  Technical Communicator
  http://www.surf-com.com/
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Tel: (+972) (4) 9095-732
  Mobile: (053) 864-280
  ICQ 15617901
 
  Hlade's Law: If you have a difficult task, give it to a lazy person.
  They will find an easier way to do it.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Amir Tal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 11:08 AM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: mozilla's mouse pointers
 
 
  hi,
 
  i've became i big fan of tab browsing ever since i started to use kde
  from
  cvs. since i am leaving the country in a few weeks, i had to sell all of
  my
  computers, and i am now using an old Toshiba laptop (300 Mhz) which
  makes
  compiling kde a living hell. so for now, i am using the latest stable
  release
  of kde , which does not support this feature.
  as an alternative, i've started to look into mozilla lately, which has
  tab
  browsing support. i've never been a huge mozilla fan (i'm a konqi kinda
  guy)
  but i have to admit that its a nice browser. the only thing i hate about
  it
  is the mouse pointers (specially that ugly hand pointer when pointing
  over
  links) and i was wondering if there is a way to replace those pointers
  with
  the default kde pointers. browsing through the menu's in mozilla and
  googling
  for an answer didn't tell me much...
  using mozilla 1.1.
 
  help...?
  tal.
 
 
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http://baruch.ev-en.org/

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Re: Ever wanted to have a lawyer at your mercy?

2002-11-27 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



If anyone knows how to build a custom RedHat install CD set with
add/replaced packages kindly contact me in person.


Why not share it with the list? I for one would love to get my hands on a 
distro specifically customized for Hebrew speaking users and/or Israeli 
residents.


Alexander Maryanovsky.



At 21:02 27.11.2002 +0200, Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote:

Now you can - Introducing the Linux installation and demonstration
party  for lawyers, hosted by the Israeli bar... :-)

Where: Somewhere in Tel-Aviv, I'm still not sure where.

When: December 2nd, 15:30.

What:

Recently the Israeli bar have passed a decision to use Open Source
Software as much as possible for their activities. To help promote this
great idea Adv. Haim Ravia has organised a Linux installation party and
demonstration as part of a law confrence held by the bar (he will also
give a lecture about the legal implications of Open Source at said
confrence). He has asked our help in organising the event.

Details:

Because of the obviously non technical crowd involved we've decided to
settle on a default configuration of RedHat 8.0. This does not mean that
if someone will insist of having anything else installed we would say
no, just that for simplicity we would default to installing this
specific distribution and not ask the victim^H^H^H^H client what to
install. Remember - these people has no idea what Linux is at all...

We also want to add some helpful specific applications, like OpenOffice
with bidi support beta, ADSL connection scripts , the free Hebrew fonts
etc. If anyone knows how to build a custom RedHat install CD set with
add/replaced packages kindly contact me in person.

In addition to installing Linux for anyone interested, we also thought
to have a demonstration display of Linux in action that will include
bidi-OpenOffice and usinh Linux for email and web surfing. Thanks to the
efforts of Shachar Shemesh we will also demonstrate at the event the
legal software Pad-Or running under Wine (don't worry, the copy we use
has been given us by Pad-Or themselves for this specific purpose and
they helped Shcahr get it working too :-) . If anyone has any additional
ideas for demonstration *that would be attractive to lawyers* kindly let
me know.

Cheers,
Gilad.




--
Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://benyossef.com

 Geeks rock bands cool name #8192: RAID against the machine


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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem

2002-11-14 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



Like I said before, working Rotal modems are a hoax. The only thing you can
try is to sniff out the synchronization sequence yourself - and I wasnt able
to do that because the USB snooper crashes my only Windows box.

The symptoms are the same in at least 3 confirmed cases.


Not sure I understand... Hetz says he got it working on his computer, and I 
don't see him spreading (starting) hoaxes...
Also, like I said, it seems to work fine for a minute, but then just stops...


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 19:06 13.11.2002 +0200, Michael Stolovitzsky wrote:
On Wednesday 13 November 2002 15:11, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

Like I said before, working Rotal modems are a hoax. The only thing you can
try is to sniff out the synchronization sequence yourself - and I wasnt able
to do that because the USB snooper crashes my only Windows box.

The symptoms are the same in at least 3 confirmed cases.

 No, sorry, I'm still waiting for Hetz to perhaps fix this problem...

 At 15:04 13.11.2002 +0200, you wrote:
 Hi Alex
 
 I was reading the linux-il mailing list and found your posts there...
 I'm having the exact same problem with the Rotal USB ADSL modem - I'm able
 to connect but it dies after 1 minute or so. I can see the pppd up.. but I
 can't connect to anything. I was wondering if you solved this problem of
  yours.
 
 Thanks in advance.
 
 
 *
 Michael Spivak
 *

--
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why
don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem
solve itself?

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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem

2002-11-13 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky


No, sorry, I'm still waiting for Hetz to perhaps fix this
problem...
At 15:04 13.11.2002 +0200, you wrote:
Hi
Alex

I was reading the linux-il mailing list and found
your posts there...
I'm having the exact same problem with the Rotal USB
ADSL modem - I'm able to connect but it dies after 1 minute or so. I can
see the pppd up.. but I can't connect to anything. I was wondering if you
solved this problem of yours.

Thanks in advance.


*
Michael
Spivak
*

InstaParty at TAU?

2002-11-07 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

Hi,

I saw a note on the luach modaot in the Schreiber building this morning 
about an InstaParty at 18:00 today at TAU...
Did I miss something? When was this announced? Was this announced? Will 
there be only installations or lectures too?


Alexander Maryanovsky.


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Re: InstaParty at TAU?

2002-11-07 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



Currently installations only. We might respond to a demand for lectures,
in case there is such a demand.


On the fly, or at some later date? Because I don't need anything installed, 
but would love to hear lectures :-)


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 15:39 07.11.2002 +0200, Yedidyah Bar-David wrote:
Hi,

On Thu, Nov 07, 2002 at 12:51:03PM +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 Hi,

 I saw a note on the luach modaot in the Schreiber building this morning
 about an InstaParty at 18:00 today at TAU...
 Did I miss something? When was this announced? Was this announced? Will

I announced it on linux-il on Nov 3.

 there be only installations or lectures too?

Currently installations only. We might respond to a demand for lectures,
in case there is such a demand.



 Alexander Maryanovsky.


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Didi



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Fwd: Re: Rotal USB ADSL almost success

2002-11-01 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

Delivered-To: msasha:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Michael Stolovitzsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Rotal USB ADSL *almost* success
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 17:12:21 +0200
User-Agent: KMail/1.4.3
To: Alexander Maryanovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Just in case you are interested, we have discovered that, in fact, the modem
will lock itself off the line after a more or less static period of time
regardless of whether ppp link is connected or not. It does not matter.
Experimentation suggested that after a fixed amount of time, no
communications with the upstream would not be available until the modem is
forcefully resynced.

Our current theory is that the modem (or, rather, the firmware) implements an
adaptive modulation control algorithm which is based on line statistics per
element of time. The statistics deteriorate (for whichever reason) to the
point when modem decides that it is no longer viable to support current state
of the line and tries to start resynchronization in the very fashion of usual
modems initializing connection retraining. As soon as it happens,
communications dies off. The modem itself still responds to the control
traffic, but there is absolutely no uplink to the SLAM. Alternative theory is
that the firmware or sync sequence that we use do not implement some
nezeq-specific keepalive functionality, so the connection times out, on
either site of the link.

it is my belief that this is due to a slightly non-standard line 
modulation in
Nezeq. While there is no technical reason to suppose so and in fact there is
absolutely no proof whatsoever that this is the case, I find it very strange
and disturbing that the Windows drivers for the modem are aware of the
traffic shaping settings on the SLAM - as far as I know, there should be
absolutely no reason for the SLAM to communicate them down to the modem which
raises unhealthy suspicions about proprietary cooperation between the modem
firmware and the Nezeq equipment.

I am no DSL expert and I can only operate subtle terms, most of which I 
hardly
understand.

Anyway, obvious solution would be to take a dump of the syncronization
sequence under Windows and use it in Linux; however. we were unable to do
that because the USB snooper that is suggested in the sniffing manual crashed
our Windows workstation and we were not able to find a decent workaround.
Perhaps you would like to try? If this is the case, #eci people on
freenode.net can explain you how.

You can forward this email to the list - I am not currently subscribed there.

--
I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why
don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem
solve itself?

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Re: Rotal USB ADSL almost success

2002-10-31 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky

By the way, the same thing happens with my Evo N160 laptop...


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 23:38 27.10.2002 +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:


2. Seems like you missed some modules to compile. Please look at the
TROUBLESHOOTING document which is in the tar.gz file.


Ahh, how didn't I think of that before smacks self. Anyway, the 
TROUBLESHOOTING file was very helpful - apparently I wasn't supposed to 
compile usb support into the kernel, but leave it as a module.


 What will not happen? The breakage or me needing to dual boot? :-)

Hmm, Apparently something is not the same as with the modems that are 
imported
to Israel by Rotal. I'll check it this week.

Actually, the TROUBLESHOOTING file talks about that too. I'm supposed to 
either unload all the modules before rebooting or unplug the modem and 
then plug it back in. I'll choose the latter for now :-)


Anyway, the good (great?) news is that I managed to get connected. The bad 
news is that after about a minute, the connection died. It didn't say it 
died (the small ppp monitor next to the CPU monitor continued to be 
displayed), nothing was printed to /var/log/messages, but I couldn't 
connect anywhere anymore, couldn't ping anything and couldn't resolve any 
hostnames. I tried it again several times, with the same result.


Almost there,
Alexander Maryanovsky.

P.S. Wish me luck on my Entomology quiz - it ain't no kernel hacking you 
know :-)

At 22:06 27.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
 Since this seems to be something Hetz wrote (or at least knows a lot
 about), I was thinking that maybe he would know what the problem is
 immediately. Since it seems to be a configuration problem (i.e. not a bug
 or a hardware problem), I don't think debugging or stracing it will help,
 as there probable *is* no offending command. Probably one of the 
commands
 fails, but we already know why - it told us exactly why:

1. No, it's not my script (startmodem is a script) and it was written by the
french team. I did few small fixes there.

 ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device

2. Seems like you missed some modules to compile. Please look at the
TROUBLESHOOTING document which is in the tar.gz file.

 It is my suggestion to get it working first. There is a possibility
 that it will not happen once the modem will work in a satisfactory
 manner.

 What will not happen? The breakage or me needing to dual boot? :-)

Hmm, Apparently something is not the same as with the modems that are 
imported
to Israel by Rotal. I'll check it this week.

Thanks,
Hetz


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Re: Rotal USB ADSL modem instructions

2002-10-27 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



 2. Running startmodem (from Hetz's instructions) results in the firmware
 being installed, the modem initialized and then the following was printed:
 Connect Modem ...
 using channel 1
 ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device
 Connexion failed



Is `startmodem' a shell script? If it is then once again, try to
isolate the offending command by running the commands manually. A better
idea might be set +/- x.
If it is not a shell script then strace it. Next steps might be to get
the source and use a debugger. I believe it is less scary then some
people think. Hopefully people here will hold your hand if you are new
to these things.
Maybe this has something with the way you configured PPP?
Maybe someone has a better answer?


Since this seems to be something Hetz wrote (or at least knows a lot 
about), I was thinking that maybe he would know what the problem is 
immediately. Since it seems to be a configuration problem (i.e. not a bug 
or a hardware problem), I don't think debugging or stracing it will help, 
as there probable *is* no offending command. Probably one of the commands 
fails, but we already know why - it told us exactly why:

ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device



It is my suggestion to get it working first. There is a possibility
that it will not happen once the modem will work in a satisfactory
manner.


What will not happen? The breakage or me needing to dual boot? :-)


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 17:58 27.10.2002 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 01:18:46AM +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 Well, some news:

 1. After many difficulties and pain, I've installed 2.4.20-pre11 with ohci
 support built in.



Hopefully compiling the kernel will be painless next time.


 2. Running startmodem (from Hetz's instructions) results in the firmware
 being installed, the modem initialized and then the following was printed:
 Connect Modem ...
 using channel 1
 ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device
 Connexion failed



Is `startmodem' a shell script? If it is then once again, try to
isolate the offending command by running the commands manually. A better
idea might be set +/- x.
If it is not a shell script then strace it. Next steps might be to get
the source and use a debugger. I believe it is less scary then some
people think. Hopefully people here will hold your hand if you are new
to these things.
Maybe this has something with the way you configured PPP?
Maybe someone has a better answer?


 3. Hetz's stuff broke the modem under windows and I had to re-run the
 (driver and firmware) installation program. Can't it be done so that it's
 compatible with windows? I *need* to dual boot, and I'd hate to have to
 reinstall everything every time.



It is my suggestion to get it working first. There is a possibility
that it will not happen once the modem will work in a satisfactory
manner.

--

Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t



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Re: Rotal USB ADSL modem instructions

2002-10-27 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



In short, take it or leave it.


I'll certainly take it, as I don't have any other choice... Just that I 
have an Entomology quiz tomorrow to prepare for :-)
And maybe in the meanwhile, Hetz will have a piece of advice for me after 
all...


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 20:48 27.10.2002 +0200, you wrote:
On Sun, Oct 27, 2002 at 06:14:59PM +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

  2. Running startmodem (from Hetz's instructions) results in the
 firmware
  being installed, the modem initialized and then the following was
 printed:
  Connect Modem ...
  using channel 1
  ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device
  Connexion failed
 
 
 
 Is `startmodem' a shell script? If it is then once again, try to
 isolate the offending command by running the commands manually. A better
 idea might be set +/- x.
 If it is not a shell script then strace it. Next steps might be to get
 the source and use a debugger. I believe it is less scary then some
 people think. Hopefully people here will hold your hand if you are new
 to these things.
 Maybe this has something with the way you configured PPP?
 Maybe someone has a better answer?

 Since this seems to be something Hetz wrote (or at least knows a lot
 about), I was thinking that maybe he would know what the problem is
 immediately. Since it seems to be a configuration problem (i.e. not a bug
 or a hardware problem), I don't think debugging or stracing it will help,
 as there probable *is* no offending command. Probably one of the 
commands
 fails, but we already know why - it told us exactly why:

 ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device




I am not knowledgeable enough to get to the bottom of the problem by that
message. It is very cryptic to me and I need a lot more information.
I guess that there are people who read that message differently. I also
guess that Hetz would have replied if he knew the answer off the top
of his head. It can also be that he hasn't seen your message for some
reason: maybe he is too busy lately. In any case, if I was in your shoes
and no one else would give me a better suggestion and I would still
anxious to do something about it then those things were what I would
have do.
In short, take it or leave it.



 It is my suggestion to get it working first. There is a possibility
 that it will not happen once the modem will work in a satisfactory
 manner.

 What will not happen? The breakage or me needing to dual boot? :-)




The `breakage', hopefully. But you seems to be on the right track :-)
--

Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t


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Rotal USB ADSL almost success

2002-10-27 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



2. Seems like you missed some modules to compile. Please look at the
TROUBLESHOOTING document which is in the tar.gz file.


Ahh, how didn't I think of that before smacks self. Anyway, the 
TROUBLESHOOTING file was very helpful - apparently I wasn't supposed to 
compile usb support into the kernel, but leave it as a module.


 What will not happen? The breakage or me needing to dual boot? :-)

Hmm, Apparently something is not the same as with the modems that are 
imported
to Israel by Rotal. I'll check it this week.

Actually, the TROUBLESHOOTING file talks about that too. I'm supposed to 
either unload all the modules before rebooting or unplug the modem and then 
plug it back in. I'll choose the latter for now :-)


Anyway, the good (great?) news is that I managed to get connected. The bad 
news is that after about a minute, the connection died. It didn't say it 
died (the small ppp monitor next to the CPU monitor continued to be 
displayed), nothing was printed to /var/log/messages, but I couldn't 
connect anywhere anymore, couldn't ping anything and couldn't resolve any 
hostnames. I tried it again several times, with the same result.


Almost there,
Alexander Maryanovsky.

P.S. Wish me luck on my Entomology quiz - it ain't no kernel hacking you 
know :-)

At 22:06 27.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
 Since this seems to be something Hetz wrote (or at least knows a lot
 about), I was thinking that maybe he would know what the problem is
 immediately. Since it seems to be a configuration problem (i.e. not a bug
 or a hardware problem), I don't think debugging or stracing it will help,
 as there probable *is* no offending command. Probably one of the commands
 fails, but we already know why - it told us exactly why:

1. No, it's not my script (startmodem is a script) and it was written by the
french team. I did few small fixes there.

 ioctl(PPPIOCGFLAGS): Inappropriate ioctl for device

2. Seems like you missed some modules to compile. Please look at the
TROUBLESHOOTING document which is in the tar.gz file.

 It is my suggestion to get it working first. There is a possibility
 that it will not happen once the modem will work in a satisfactory
 manner.

 What will not happen? The breakage or me needing to dual boot? :-)

Hmm, Apparently something is not the same as with the modems that are 
imported
to Israel by Rotal. I'll check it this week.

Thanks,
Hetz


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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem

2002-10-26 Thread Alexander Maryanovsky



- Does it happen with and without the usb device plugged in?


Only with the modem plugged in.



- Which kernel? Try again with the latest stable kernel / your
distro's last stable kernel.


I've tried both RedHat 8.0 (2.4.18) and Mandrake 9.0 (2.4.19). 2.4.19 I 
believe is the latest stable kernel and both of those are the latest 
kernels for those distros. I could try some older releases...


- Recompile USB with all debugging options and do the
/var/log/messages dance.


You're overestimating my abilities - this is my first attempt at Linux. I 
*could* try recompiling the kernel etc., but I'm more likely to just screw 
it up.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 07:55 26.10.2002 +0200, Muli Ben-Yehuda wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 11:20:01PM +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 Ok, I think I've finally located the offending command:
 modprobe  usb-ohci
 makes the system hang about one second after it returns.

 Any ideas what to do now?

- Does it happen with and without the usb device plugged in?
- Which kernel? Try again with the latest stable kernel / your
distro's last stable kernel.
- Recompile USB with all debugging options and do the
/var/log/messages dance.
--
Muli Ben-Yehuda http://www.mulix.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sctrace strace /bin/foo  http://syscalltrack.sf.net/
Quis custodes ipsos custodiet?

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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



 4. (The weirdest part) When, in the forementioned lines I added strace
 before depmod (after uncommenting of course), the Finding module
 dependencies operation finished (with a lot of text flying by) and then
 booting got hung at Enabling swap space.


Is this related to timeing somehow?

If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep 5' (sleep for
5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows up after x
seconds. Either software-related or hardware related.


I will try that, but it seems like while it is related to timing, it's more 
complex than just hanging after 5 seconds. If I add strace, it obviously 
takes it *longer* to execute and it hangs later. So it doesn't hang after a 
constant amount of time.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 09:05 25.10.2002 +0200, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

 Ok, here are the (mighty weird) results:

 1. When booting with linux init=/bin/bash, typing lspci | grep USB
 gives the following:
 pcilib: Cannot open /proc/bus/pci

The proc filesystem is not mounted. proc is an interface of the kernel to
user programs, in the appearance of a file systems.

Furthermore, any file system, except / , is not mounted.

To mount the, run:

  mount -a

 00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)
 00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)

 2. When booting with the modem unplugged, typing lspci | grep USB gives
 the following:
 00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)
 00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)

 3. When commenting out the following lines from my rc.sysinit file:
 if [ -L /lib/modules/default ]; then
INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A default
 else
INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A
 fi
 booting gets hung at Starting up APM daemon.

To see exactly what is being run by a shell script, add somewhere in it
the line:

  set -x

This is disabled by:

  set +x

if you want to make just one part of the script verbose.

Note that if the whole script will run in verbose mode, it will run
slower.


 4. (The weirdest part) When, in the forementioned lines I added strace
 before depmod (after uncommenting of course), the Finding module
 dependencies operation finished (with a lot of text flying by) and then
 booting got hung at Enabling swap space.


Is this related to timeing somehow?

If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep 5' (sleep for
5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows up after x
seconds. Either software-related or hardware related.

--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:tzafrir;technion.ac.il
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir



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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



Is this related to timeing somehow?

If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep 5' (sleep for
5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows up after x
seconds. Either software-related or hardware related.


I've added the following line before the lines that do Finding Module 
Dependencies to rc.sysinit:
action Sleeping for 5 seconds:  sleep 5
The result is that it hangs while sleeping (right when it starts sleeping).


To see exactly what is being run by a shell script, add somewhere in it
the line:

  set -x


This results in the computer hanging during boot after displaying the line:
+ initlog -c 'depmod -A'


Also, I've tried tailing both /var/log/kernel/info and /varlog/syslog and 
neither of them displays anything after I plug the modem in. The system 
hangs right away.


Puzzled as ever,
Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 13:08 25.10.2002 +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

 4. (The weirdest part) When, in the forementioned lines I added strace
 before depmod (after uncommenting of course), the Finding module
 dependencies operation finished (with a lot of text flying by) and then
 booting got hung at Enabling swap space.


Is this related to timeing somehow?

If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep 5' (sleep for
5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows up after x
seconds. Either software-related or hardware related.


I will try that, but it seems like while it is related to timing, it's 
more complex than just hanging after 5 seconds. If I add strace, it 
obviously takes it *longer* to execute and it hangs later. So it doesn't 
hang after a constant amount of time.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 09:05 25.10.2002 +0200, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

 Ok, here are the (mighty weird) results:

 1. When booting with linux init=/bin/bash, typing lspci | grep USB
 gives the following:
 pcilib: Cannot open /proc/bus/pci

The proc filesystem is not mounted. proc is an interface of the kernel to
user programs, in the appearance of a file systems.

Furthermore, any file system, except / , is not mounted.

To mount the, run:

  mount -a

 00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)
 00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)

 2. When booting with the modem unplugged, typing lspci | grep USB gives
 the following:
 00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)
 00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)

 3. When commenting out the following lines from my rc.sysinit file:
 if [ -L /lib/modules/default ]; then
INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A default
 else
INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A
 fi
 booting gets hung at Starting up APM daemon.

To see exactly what is being run by a shell script, add somewhere in it
the line:

  set -x

This is disabled by:

  set +x

if you want to make just one part of the script verbose.

Note that if the whole script will run in verbose mode, it will run
slower.


 4. (The weirdest part) When, in the forementioned lines I added strace
 before depmod (after uncommenting of course), the Finding module
 dependencies operation finished (with a lot of text flying by) and then
 booting got hung at Enabling swap space.


Is this related to timeing somehow?

If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep 5' (sleep for
5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows up after x
seconds. Either software-related or hardware related.

--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:tzafrir;technion.ac.il
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir



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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



Please post /sbin/lsmod output please.

One more trick - if you see a module called dabusb - then do: 
/sbin/rmmod -r
dabusb  - and try to see if it helps.

Attached. I didn't see a module called dabusb there.


Alexander Maryanovsky.


At 17:24 25.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:

 This results in the computer hanging during boot after displaying the line:
 + initlog -c 'depmod -A'


 Also, I've tried tailing both /var/log/kernel/info and /varlog/syslog and
 neither of them displays anything after I plug the modem in. The system
 hangs right away.


 Puzzled as ever,
 Alexander Maryanovsky.

Please post /sbin/lsmod output please.

One more trick - if you see a module called dabusb - then do: 
/sbin/rmmod -r
dabusb  - and try to see if it helps.

Thanks,
Hetz
Module  Size  Used byNot tainted
sr_mod 15096   0  (autoclean) (unused)
floppy 49340   0  (autoclean)
lp  6720   0 
parport_pc 21672   1 
parport23936   1  [lp parport_pc]
snd-seq-midi3680   0  (autoclean) (unused)
snd-seq-oss26176   0  (unused)
snd-seq-midi-event  3208   0  [snd-seq-midi snd-seq-oss]
snd-seq33264   2  [snd-seq-midi snd-seq-oss snd-seq-midi-event]
snd-pcm-oss36932   0  (unused)
snd-mixer-oss   9016   0  [snd-pcm-oss]
snd-cmipci 15660   0 
snd-pcm55808   0  [snd-pcm-oss snd-cmipci]
snd-mpu401-uart 2752   0  [snd-cmipci]
snd-rawmidi12864   0  [snd-seq-midi snd-mpu401-uart]
snd-opl3-lib5764   0  [snd-cmipci]
snd-timer   9964   0  [snd-seq snd-pcm snd-opl3-lib]
snd-seq-device  3836   0  [snd-seq-midi snd-seq-oss snd-seq snd-rawmidi 
snd-opl3-lib]
snd-hwdep   3840   0  [snd-opl3-lib]
snd24804   0  [snd-seq-midi snd-seq-oss snd-seq-midi-event snd-seq 
snd-pcm-oss snd-mixer-oss snd-cmipci snd-pcm snd-mpu401-uart snd-rawmidi snd-opl3-lib 
snd-timer snd-seq-device snd-hwdep]
soundcore   3780   0  [snd]
nfsd   66576   0  (autoclean)
lockd  46480   0  (autoclean) [nfsd]
sunrpc 60188   0  (autoclean) [nfsd lockd]
af_packet  13000   0  (autoclean)
ip_vs  74328   0  (autoclean)
nls_iso8859-1   2844   1  (autoclean)
ntfs   72908   1  (autoclean)
supermount 14340   2  (autoclean)
ide-cd 28712   0 
cdrom  26848   0  [sr_mod ide-cd]
ide-scsi8212   0 
scsi_mod   90372   2  [sr_mod ide-scsi]
usb-ohci   18216   0  (unused)
usbcore58304   1  [usb-ohci]
rtc 6560   0  (autoclean)
ext3   74004   2 
jbd38452   2  [ext3]

Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



Ok, do you use Mandrake drivers for your nforce or NVidia's ones? If 
Mandrake,
then I suggest to download, recompile and install the SRPM for your
distribution:

I *think* I've installed it (I did rpm -i 
NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0241.src.rpm), but it did do anything (i.e. it's still 
hanging).

I did get closer to the source of the problem though, I think:
In my rc.sysinit file, I've commented out the following line:
/etc/init.d/usb start
(and of course the if line preceding it)

It no longer hangs at boot, even with my modem plugged in. It then boots if 
I execute this command myself, after booting.
It prints two lines (about loading module and then about mounting USB 
filesystem), ends successfully and then my system hangs.

Any ideas how to fix it?


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 17:49 25.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
On Friday 25 October 2002 17:39, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 Please post /sbin/lsmod output please.
 
 One more trick - if you see a module called dabusb - then do:
 /sbin/rmmod -r
 dabusb  - and try to see if it helps.

 Attached. I didn't see a module called dabusb there.

Hmm, nothing helpful there...

Ok, do you use Mandrake drivers for your nforce or NVidia's ones? If 
Mandrake,
then I suggest to download, recompile and install the SRPM for your
distribution:

http://download.nvidia.com/XFree86_40/nforce/1.0-0241/NVIDIA_nforce-1.0-0241.src.rpm

It could help and it could do nothing. I don't know since I don't have this
chipset to play with...

Thanks,
Hetz

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RE: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



i am curious, do you also have a usb mouse or something similar?


Nope, the USB modem is the only USb device I have.



if not, how can u be sure its not something connected to ur usb? i.e not
that it is defective, but rather that linux have problem with your
chipset.


I'm not sure of that... Actually, I'm pretty sure it is something connected 
to USB.


also, if u remove the modules related to the usb modem, when it does
depmod, is it still getting stuck?
if still it freezes, see if it is possible to go further and remove usb
related modules, and see if it then freezes.
if still it freezes, i think u need to recompile the kernel from a
vanilla kernel. and try module/static compilations
and see if it helps.


See my last post... It doesn't seem like the problem is in the code that 
does Finding module dependencies, but instead in /etc/init.d/usb


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 18:09 25.10.2002 +0200, Tzahi Fadida wrote:
i am curious, do you also have a usb mouse or something similar?
if not, how can u be sure its not something connected to ur usb? i.e not
that it is defective, but rather that linux have problem with your
chipset.
also, if u remove the modules related to the usb modem, when it does
depmod, is it still getting stuck?
if still it freezes, see if it is possible to go further and remove usb
related modules, and see if it then freezes.
if still it freezes, i think u need to recompile the kernel from a
vanilla kernel. and try module/static compilations
and see if it helps.

* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My Cool Site: HTTP://WWW.My2Nis.Com
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS:  see at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:linux-il-bounce;cs.huji.ac.il]On Behalf Of Alexander
 Maryanovsky
 Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 4:36 PM
 To: Tzafrir Cohen
 Cc: Linux-IL mailing list
 Subject: Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



 Is this related to timeing somehow?
 
 If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep
 5' (sleep for
 5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows
 up after x
 seconds. Either software-related or hardware related

 I've added the following line before the lines that do
 Finding Module
 Dependencies to rc.sysinit:
 action Sleeping for 5 seconds:  sleep 5
 The result is that it hangs while sleeping (right when it
 starts sleeping)


 To see exactly what is being run by a shell script, add
 somewhere in it
 the line:
 
set -x

 This results in the computer hanging during boot after
 displaying the line:
 + initlog -c 'depmod -A'


 Also, I've tried tailing both /var/log/kernel/info and
 /varlog/syslog and
 neither of them displays anything after I plug the modem in.
 The system
 hangs right away


 Puzzled as ever,
 Alexander Maryanovsky

 At 13:08 25.10.2002 +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

   4. (The weirdest part) When, in the forementioned lines
 I added strace
   before depmod (after uncommenting of course), the
 Finding module
   dependencies operation finished (with a lot of text
 flying by) and then
   booting got hung at Enabling swap space
  
 
 Is this related to timeing somehow?
 
 If the above 'set -x' trick won't help, try adding a 'sleep
 5' (sleep for
 5 seconds). Maybe this is related to something that blows
 up after x
 seconds. Either software-related or hardware related
 
 I will try that, but it seems like while it is related to
 timing, it's
 more complex than just hanging after 5 seconds. If I add
 strace, it
 obviously takes it *longer* to execute and it hangs later.
 So it doesn't
 hang after a constant amount of time
 
 
 Alexander Maryanovsky
 
 At 09:05 25.10.2002 +0200, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
 On Fri, 25 Oct 2002, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 
   Ok, here are the (mighty weird) results:
  
   1. When booting with linux init=/bin/bash, typing
 lspci | grep USB
   gives the following:
   pcilib: Cannot open /proc/bus/pci
 
 The proc filesystem is not mounted. proc is an interface of
 the kernel to
 user programs, in the appearance of a file systems
 
 Furthermore, any file system, except / , is not mounted
 
 To mount the, run:
 
mount -a
 
   00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown
 device 01c1 (rev c3)
   00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown
 device 01c1 (rev c3)
  
   2. When booting with the modem unplugged, typing lspci
 | grep USB gives
   the following:
   00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown
 device 01c1 (rev c3)
   00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown
 device 01c1 (rev c3)
  
   3. When commenting out the following lines from my
 rc.sysinit file:
   if [ -L /lib/modules/default ]; then
  INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies: 
 depmod -A default
   else
  INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A
   fi
   booting gets hung at Starting up APM daemon
 
 To see exactly what

Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



1. What does the preceding if clause check?


I'll post it exactly in a moment, but if I remember correctly, it only 
checks whether there was a nousb argument specified when booting linux.


2. Running the commands manually in order to identify where exactly it
   does hang?


I'll see whether /etc/init.d/usb is at all a script and try running the 
commands one by one if it is.


3. strace the offending command?


Since /etc/init.d/usb finishes (without an error, too), I doubt stracing 
it will provide any useful hints, but I'll try anyway.


4. When you say the machine hang, what does it mean? More specifically,
   can you remote login with another machine?


When I say it hangs, I mean that it hangs :-) Pressing caps lock doesn't 
change the caps lock light on the keyboard. The mouse cursor doesn't move 
when I move the mouse. It doesn't respond to any keys, including ctrl+ald+del.
I have no idea whether I can login remotely with another machine, seeing as 
this computer is not connected to anything when booting Linux (the problem 
is with the USB *modem*, remember?)


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 20:28 25.10.2002 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2002 at 06:31:53PM +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

 I did get closer to the source of the problem though, I think:
 In my rc.sysinit file, I've commented out the following line:
 /etc/init.d/usb start
 (and of course the if line preceding it)

 It no longer hangs at boot, even with my modem plugged in. It then 
boots if
 I execute this command myself, after booting.
 It prints two lines (about loading module and then about mounting USB
 filesystem), ends successfully and then my system hangs.

 Any ideas how to fix it?



1. What does the preceding if clause check?
2. Running the commands manually in order to identify where exactly it
   does hang?
3. strace the offending command?
4. When you say the machine hang, what does it mean? More specifically,
   can you remote login with another machine?

Can you post /etc/init.d/usb? I don't have neither usb nor this script.
Perhaps the modem has some controls which should be looked into (for
example, get identify as 1 rather then 2 - you can see I am clue less
about usb but I hope the basic idea still stands)?
--

Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t


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Re: Rotal USB ADSL modem instructions

As expected, when I ran startmodem, it hung when doing Loading OHCI 
support.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 23:00 23.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
Hi,

This is a micro version of how-to to use the Rotal ADSL modem - it's quite
simple:

1. Download the CVS snapshot (the driver is ECI ADSL version 0.6pre3) from
http://www.penguin.org.il/~hetz/usb-adsl-cvs.tar.gz

2. untar (tar zxvf usb-ads-cvs.tar.gz) ; cd into the directory and simply do
make
3. become root (everything else will be done as root from now on)
3. do: make install
4. run: eciconf.sh - a GUI configuration will pop up. Set the DNS to Bezeq
Intl., the ADSL to ASKEY, the VPI to 8, and VCI to 48. Set your username and
password, and finally - hit the Create Config button.

An example screenshot how it should look after configuration is available at:
http://www.penguin.org.il/~hetz/adsl.png

5. Connect your USB ADSL modem to your Linux machine. Connect the ADSL phone
line to the small filter. You should see only the power line is turned on,
not the Link LED. If you see the Link LED flashing - disconnect the ADSL
modem from the USB, wait 40 seconds, and reconnect.

6. type startmodem - the script will upload the firmware to the ADSL modem
and will run it - this can take between 10-30 seconds, depends on line
quality etc. I had various times. After the setup stage it will dial to your
ISP negotiate (authentication) and it should have your PPP link up.

7. Before you smile - if you have an ethernet card, do: add route default
ppp0 or else you won't be able to talk to the world.

If everything goes ok - you should have by now PPP connection up (do: 
ifconfig
| grep ppp to see it). You can simply check it by doing: ping 194.90.1.6 - it
should bring ping results.

8. to kill your PPP connection, either do ifdown ppp0 or killall pppd.

Now - some notes:

1. I don't have a clue why, but with Bezeq International DNS settings (at
least what dig gives me - 192.115.106.11, 192.115.106.10) - I get lots of
DNS unresolving problems - sites like news.com, www.zdnn.com, and many others
are not resolved. Does Bezeq Have other more reliable DNS servers?

2. If you're disconnected suddenly - you won't see it on the Link LED. Even
if you disconnect the ADSL phone line, you'll see the Link LED still on.
This is a driver is development stages.

3. I have tested this driver on Red Hat 7.3 and Red Hat 8.0 - with Intel 
82801
Chipset for 2 hours - no disconnection problems to me - so your experience
maybe different then mine.

4. If you rolled (compiled) your own kernel - then you might need to compile
some modules. See the TROUBLESHOOTING file inside the tarball.

5. Before you scream for help - please read the TROUBLESHOOTING file - there
are quite few questioned answered there. You can also join #eci channel in
irc.openprojects.net - just be polite.

6. The modem start/stop stuff as well as the modem driver are still in
development stages. Once it will be stabilized, it will be rewritten as a
kernel module, and the connection/disconnection will probably become a GUI
(unless someone wants to write some KDE/GNOME applet), so I'll update the
driver accordingly.

Finally - thanks to:
* ECI ADSL team - who helped me a lot with all those firmware testings
* Katriel who was the first to provide me some space
* Meni from Rotal who borrowed me the modem
* And of course - to people like Doron, Dvir, Amir, Gilad, Oleg who 
encouraged
me.

Thanks,
Hetz

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RE: Rotal USB ADSL modem instructions

Well, actually, searching for modprobe usb-ohci hang yields only 8
results, and the only relevant one is this question (with no answer) on a
newsgroup:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=34b40737.0109020745.184f0b13%40posting.google.comoe=utf-8output=gplain

As for trying another kernel, since it's quite a difficult and lengthy
procedure, I'd like to wait a bit - maybe someone will come up with
something better/easier to try first.

Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 00:21 26.10.2002 +0200, Tzahi Fadida wrote:
well, u r not alone search google for modprobe usb-ohci and you will
find many with the same problem.
my guess is that you should try the latest vanilla kernel. possible
2.4.20 pre11.
in the changelog there seem to be some bug fixes, maybe it will help.

* - * - *
Tzahi Fadida
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Technion Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
My Cool Site: HTTP://WWW.My2Nis.Com
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *

WARNING TO SPAMMERS: see at
http://members.lycos.co.uk/my2nis/spamwarning.html

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:linux-il-bounce;cs.huji.ac.il]On Behalf Of Alexander
Maryanovsky
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2002 12:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Rotal USB ADSL modem instructions

As expected, when I ran startmodem, it hung when doing
Loading OHCI
support

Alexander Maryanovsky

At 23:00 23.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
Hi,

This is a micro version of how-to to use the Rotal ADSL
modem - it's quite
simple:

1. Download the CVS snapshot (the driver is ECI ADSL version
0.6pre3) from
http://www.penguin.org.il/~hetz/usb-adsl-cvs.tar.gz

2. untar (tar zxvf usb-ads-cvs.tar.gz) ; cd into the
directory and simply do
make
3. become root (everything else will be done as root from now on)
3. do: make install
4. run: eciconf.sh - a GUI configuration will pop up. Set
the DNS to Bezeq
Intl., the ADSL to ASKEY, the VPI to 8, and VCI to 48. Set
your username and
password, and finally - hit the Create Config button

An example screenshot how it should look after configuration
is available at:
http://www.penguin.org.il/~hetz/adsl.png

5. Connect your USB ADSL modem to your Linux machine.
Connect the ADSL phone
line to the small filter. You should see only the power
line is turned on,
not the Link LED. If you see the Link LED flashing -
disconnect the ADSL
modem from the USB, wait 40 seconds, and reconnect

6. type startmodem - the script will upload the firmware
to the ADSL modem
and will run it - this can take between 10-30 seconds,
depends on line
quality etc. I had various times. After the setup stage it
will dial to your
ISP negotiate (authentication) and it should have your PPP link up

7. Before you smile - if you have an ethernet card, do: add
route default
ppp0 or else you won't be able to talk to the world

If everything goes ok - you should have by now PPP
connection up (do:
ifconfig
| grep ppp to see it). You can simply check it by doing:
ping 194.90.1.6 - it
should bring ping results

8. to kill your PPP connection, either do ifdown ppp0 or
killall pppd

Now - some notes:

1. I don't have a clue why, but with Bezeq International DNS
settings (at
least what dig gives me - 192.115.106.11, 192.115.106.10)
- I get lots of
DNS unresolving problems - sites like news.com,
www.zdnn.com, and many others
are not resolved. Does Bezeq Have other more reliable DNS servers?

2. If you're disconnected suddenly - you won't see it on the Link
LED. Even
if you disconnect the ADSL phone line, you'll see the Link LED still
on
This is a driver is development stages

3. I have tested this driver on Red Hat 7.3 and Red Hat 8.0 - with
Intel
82801
Chipset for 2 hours - no disconnection problems to me - so your
experience
maybe different then mine

4. If you rolled (compiled) your own kernel - then you might need to
compile
some modules. See the TROUBLESHOOTING file inside the tarball

5. Before you scream for help - please read the TROUBLESHOOTING file -
there
are quite few questioned answered there. You can also join #eci channel
in
irc.openprojects.net - just be polite

6. The modem start/stop stuff as well as the modem driver are still
in
development stages. Once it will be stabilized, it will be rewritten as
a
kernel module, and the connection/disconnection will probably become a
GUI
(unless someone wants to write some KDE/GNOME applet), so I'll update
the
driver accordingly

Finally - thanks to:
* ECI ADSL team - who helped me a lot with all those firmware testings
* Katriel who was the first to provide me some space
* Meni from Rotal who borrowed me the modem
* And of course - to people like Doron, Dvir, Amir, Gilad, Oleg who
encouraged
me

Thanks,
Hetz

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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



reboot mandrake 9, open konsole and do tail -f /var/log/messages (as 
root) -
then plug the modem and see what it's writing on the log.

As soon as I plug the modem in, Linux hangs.
I will try what you suggested though - maybe it will print something 
before hanging.

Just tried that. There seem to be nothing printed to that file when I plug 
in the modem, and Linux hangs (caps lock doesn't work, mouse doesn't move). 
I've enabled some verbose debugging option in the kernel (via the control 
center) and tried everything again, with similar results.

Another thing I've noticed - after Linux hangs and I reboot it by pressing 
the reset button, it will get hung again during boot, this time when 
displaying Press Y within 5 seconds to force system integrity check.

I copied my /var/log/messages file to a floppy, so if you think looking at 
it may help, I can send it to you.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 22:47 23.10.2002 +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

reboot mandrake 9, open konsole and do tail -f /var/log/messages (as 
root) -
then plug the modem and see what it's writing on the log.

As soon as I plug the modem in, Linux hangs.
I will try what you suggested though - maybe it will print something 
before hanging.


Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 21:33 23.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
On Wednesday 23 October 2002 19:50, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 huh?? What linux distribution do you use?  I use redhat 7.3 with their
 2.4.18-10 kernel with Intel 82801 chipset - no crashes here while
  rebooting,

 I've tried both RedHat 8.0 and Mandrake 9.0 with the exact same result 
- if
 the modem is plugged in, it gets hung on Finding Module Dependencies at
 boot.

Hmm, I'll try Red Hat 8.0 tonight. Thanks for the tip.

 although I heard from people that in some cases the modem mistakenly is
 recognized as a device which needs the dabusb module, which is clearly a
 false thing.

 How would I figure out whether that is the case and fix it if it is?

reboot mandrake 9, open konsole and do tail -f /var/log/messages (as 
root) -
then plug the modem and see what it's writing on the log.

Thanks,
Hetz

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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



Indeed, what were the results of appending init=/bin/sh?


That went fine... but what do I do then?



Similarily, one can try booting into single user mode and then reconnect
the modem.


Ok, I'll try that, but again - what do I do then? I'm guessing it will hang.



the modem. A painfull way to pin point the offending piece of hardware,
assuming that there is one is to remove one device at a time and see
what is heppaning. Alternatively one can make his system a minimal one
by removing as many devices as possible. Another option is to take the
modem to another Linux box. This requires another box of course.


Hmm, I realize this is a poor argument, but everything seems to work fine 
under Windows.
Also, I can't imagine anything but Linux or the modem being the offending 
device, seeing as
it boots just fine if the modem isn't plugged in.


What about doing a web search for `USB Linux' or `USB Linux hang'?
Posting to the equivalent of debian-user?


The first thing I did when encountering this problem. The only relevant 
piece is some bug report against RedHat 6.0 or so, and it says it's been fixed.


Alexander Maryanovsky.



At 19:18 24.10.2002 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, Oct 24, 2002 at 05:24:11PM +0200, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
 On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

 
  reboot mandrake 9, open konsole and do tail -f /var/log/messages (as
  root) -
  then plug the modem and see what it's writing on the log.
  
  As soon as I plug the modem in, Linux hangs.
  I will try what you suggested though - maybe it will print something
  before hanging.
 
  Just tried that. There seem to be nothing printed to that file when I 
plug
  in the modem, and Linux hangs (caps lock doesn't work, mouse doesn't 
move).
  I've enabled some verbose debugging option in the kernel (via the control
  center) and tried everything again, with similar results.
 
  Another thing I've noticed - after Linux hangs and I reboot it by 
pressing
  the reset button, it will get hung again during boot, this time when
  displaying Press Y within 5 seconds to force system integrity check.
 
  I copied my /var/log/messages file to a floppy, so if you think 
looking at
  it may help, I can send it to you.

 I wouldn't call that success.

 When you originally posted to gnubies-il I suggested a simpler way to boot
 your system without passing thorough that check (adding the parameter
 INIT=/bihn/bash)



Indeed, what were the results of appending init=/bin/sh?
Similarily, one can try booting into single user mode and then reconnect
the modem. A painfull way to pin point the offending piece of hardware,
assuming that there is one is to remove one device at a time and see
what is heppaning. Alternatively one can make his system a minimal one
by removing as many devices as possible. Another option is to take the
modem to another Linux box. This requires another box of course.

What about doing a web search for `USB Linux' or `USB Linux hang'?
Posting to the equivalent of debian-user?


 The command open opens another virtual terminal.

 Maybe you can run /sbin/init from one of the terminals and see how it
 behaves?

 Comments, anybody?

 --
 Tzafrir Cohen
 mailto:tzafrir;technion.ac.il
 http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir



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--

Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t

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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



I wouldn't call that success.


The success subject line is an artifact of the original post by Hetz who 
implemented the drivers needed to use my modem on Linux.


When you originally posted to gnubies-il I suggested a simpler way to boot
your system without passing thorough that check (adding the parameter
INIT=/bihn/bash)


I did that, and responded to the list saying that I had no idea what to do 
afterwards.


Maybe you can run /sbin/init from one of the terminals and see how it
behaves?


I've now installed Mandrake 9.0... How do I boot with the equivalent of 
init=/bin/bash with lilo?



At 17:24 24.10.2002 +0200, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2002, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:


 reboot mandrake 9, open konsole and do tail -f /var/log/messages (as
 root) -
 then plug the modem and see what it's writing on the log.
 
 As soon as I plug the modem in, Linux hangs.
 I will try what you suggested though - maybe it will print something
 before hanging.

 Just tried that. There seem to be nothing printed to that file when I plug
 in the modem, and Linux hangs (caps lock doesn't work, mouse doesn't move).
 I've enabled some verbose debugging option in the kernel (via the control
 center) and tried everything again, with similar results.

 Another thing I've noticed - after Linux hangs and I reboot it by pressing
 the reset button, it will get hung again during boot, this time when
 displaying Press Y within 5 seconds to force system integrity check.

 I copied my /var/log/messages file to a floppy, so if you think looking at
 it may help, I can send it to you.

I wouldn't call that success.

When you originally posted to gnubies-il I suggested a simpler way to boot
your system without passing thorough that check (adding the parameter
INIT=/bihn/bash)

The command open opens another virtual terminal.

Maybe you can run /sbin/init from one of the terminals and see how it
behaves?

Comments, anybody?

--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:tzafrir;technion.ac.il
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir



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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem



Mind doing: /sbin/lspci | grep USB and post the results please?


After booting with the modem unplugged or after booting with init=/bin/bash ?
I'll try both in the meanwhile...



Is this crashing problem happening to you with windows 98 when you try to 
shut down?

Well, I'm running win2k, and no, I'm not having any such problems with it. 
Also, note that it's not crashing - it's hanging.


Alexander Maryanovsky.





At 23:20 24.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
On Thursday 24 October 2002 21:06, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 Indeed, what were the results of appending init=/bin/sh?

 That went fine... but what do I do then?


I just installed Mandrake 9 at work and used the script to connect to the net
(still need to tweak it a bit, SuSE 8.0 doesn't like it so much..) and I used
the Rotal ADSL modem, without any problem..

Mind doing: /sbin/lspci | grep USB and post the results please? Is this
crashing problem happening to you with windows 98 when you try to shut down?

Thanks,
Hetz



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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem

Ok, here are the (mighty weird) results:

1. When booting with linux init=/bin/bash, typing lspci | grep USB 
gives the following:
pcilib: Cannot open /proc/bus/pci
00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)
00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)

2. When booting with the modem unplugged, typing lspci | grep USB gives 
the following:
00:02.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)
00:03.0 USB Controller: nVidia Corporation: Unknown device 01c1 (rev c3)

3. When commenting out the following lines from my rc.sysinit file:
if [ -L /lib/modules/default ]; then
INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A default
else
INITLOG_ARGS= action Finding module dependencies:  depmod -A
fi
booting gets hung at Starting up APM daemon.

4. (The weirdest part) When, in the forementioned lines I added strace 
before depmod (after uncommenting of course), the Finding module 
dependencies operation finished (with a lot of text flying by) and then 
booting got hung at Enabling swap space.


Puzzled as ever,
Alexander Maryanovsky.

At 23:39 24.10.2002 +0200, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:

Mind doing: /sbin/lspci | grep USB and post the results please?


After booting with the modem unplugged or after booting with 
init=/bin/bash ?
I'll try both in the meanwhile...


Is this crashing problem happening to you with windows 98 when you try to 
shut down?

Well, I'm running win2k, and no, I'm not having any such problems with it. 
Also, note that it's not crashing - it's hanging.


Alexander Maryanovsky.





At 23:20 24.10.2002 +0200, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote:
On Thursday 24 October 2002 21:06, Alexander Maryanovsky wrote:
 Indeed, what were the results of appending init=/bin/sh?

 That went fine... but what do I do then?


I just installed Mandrake 9 at work and used the script to connect to the net
(still need to tweak it a bit, SuSE 8.0 doesn't like it so much..) and I used
the Rotal ADSL modem, without any problem..

Mind doing: /sbin/lspci | grep USB and post the results please? Is this
crashing problem happening to you with windows 98 when you try to shut down?

Thanks,
Hetz



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Re: SUCCSESS: Rotal ADSL USB modem